Did I earn an extra hour of interest last night?

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Did I earn an extra hour of interest last night?

Post by nisiprius »

Last night (or in the wee hours of this morning), the time crept forward to 2 a.m. 11/5/2017, then fell back to 1 a.m., then crept forward to 2 a.m. again. Thus calendar day 11/5/2017 contains 25 hours. In whatever kind of accounting calculations carry results to many decimal places--"continuously compounded" bank accounts and so forth--does this day earn or owe 25/24ths as much interest as most days?

Also, there were two moments on 11/5/2017 when the clock read 01:30 hours. In situations where formal, legal event logs are being kept, how do they record and distinguish between the 01:30 am 10/5/2017 that occurred 90 minutes after midnight from the 01:30 am 10/5/2017 that occurred 150 minutes after midnight? Do they have a notation for this, 01:30a and 01:30b or anything like that? I was surprised that I couldn't find this in five minutes of Googling. Wikipedia notes that "During an autumn transition from 02:00 to 01:00, a clock reads times from 01:00:00 through 01:59:59 twice, possibly leading to confusion," but give no indication of how this ambiguity is resolved in official records... and the reference they cite doesn't discuss it at all.
Last edited by nisiprius on Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:14 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Did I earn an extra hour of interest last night?

Post by Teague »

I think in cases where it matters it will be specified. e.g. insurance agreements might reference Jan 1, 12:01 am PDT or GMT, etc.
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Re: Did I earn an extra hour of interest last night?

Post by cjg »

nisiprius wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:09 am Also, there were two moments on 11/5/2017 when the clock read 01:30 hours. In situations where formal, legal event logs are being kept, how do they record and distinguish between the 01:30 10/5/2017 that occurred 90 minutes after midnight from the 1:30 10/5/2017 that occurred 150 minutes after midnight? I was surprised that I couldn't find this in five minutes of Googling. Wikipedia notes that "During an autumn transition from 02:00 to 01:00, a clock reads times from 01:00:00 through 01:59:59 twice, possibly leading to confusion," but give no indication of how this ambiguity is resolved in official records... and the reference they cite doesn't discuss it at all.
Most well designed computer programs will store date/time events as UTC in the back end then convert to the user's time zone when displaying them. Not sure if there's any standard pattern used for pen/paper logs.
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Re: Did I earn an extra hour of interest last night?

Post by nisiprius »

cjg wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:17 am
nisiprius wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:09 am Also, there were two moments on 11/5/2017 when the clock read 01:30 hours. In situations where formal, legal event logs are being kept, how do they record and distinguish between the 01:30 10/5/2017 that occurred 90 minutes after midnight from the 1:30 10/5/2017 that occurred 150 minutes after midnight? I was surprised that I couldn't find this in five minutes of Googling. Wikipedia notes that "During an autumn transition from 02:00 to 01:00, a clock reads times from 01:00:00 through 01:59:59 twice, possibly leading to confusion," but give no indication of how this ambiguity is resolved in official records... and the reference they cite doesn't discuss it at all.
Most well designed computer programs will store date/time events as UTC in the back end then convert to the user's time zone when displaying them. Not sure if there's any standard pattern used for pen/paper logs.
Nowadays, is UTC used in courts of law for describing the time when events occurred?
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Re: Did I earn an extra hour of interest last night?

Post by samsoes »

Worked in IT at Multi-state Mega Hospital for many years. It had been a problem when medical tests like blood draws had results posted (1:05 a.m.) before they occurred (15 minutes earlier: 1:50 a.m.), when the process spanned the changeover from daylight saving time to standard time. Eventually, this was mitigated to a degree by suspending system input during the first occurrence of the 1:00 hour (as if the system was down) and charting orders and results manually after the changeover using standard time as the input. Of course, this required runners, faxing, extra paperwork, etc., during the first hour. Most non-critical orders and tests were simply delayed during the system input suspension.
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Re: Did I earn an extra hour of interest last night?

Post by mrc »

cjg wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:17 am Most well designed computer programs will store date/time events as UTC in the back end then convert to the user's time zone when displaying them. Not sure if there's any standard pattern used for pen/paper logs.
I know of at least one financial institution that shuts down their mainframe for about an hour when the time changes. But you did say well-designed!
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Re: Did I earn an extra hour of interest last night?

Post by dm200 »

1. Although I have never taken such medications, I wonder how very, very precisely dosed medications are handled with a time change?

2. One of my "pet peeves" (but I could be wrong) is the use of EST (Eastern Standard Time) to mean "Local time" during the period of daylight Savings Time. So, in the Eastern Time Zone, in the summer, if something is to happen at 1:00 pm - I would say or write 1:00 pm EDT (Eastern Daylight Time) and not EST because (by my logic) 1:00 pm EDT is 12:00 Noon EST. Or, I might say 1:00 pm ET.
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Re: Did I earn an extra hour of interest last night?

Post by Kenkat »

No. However, you do owe us an extra hour of interest from last spring. Please send a check as soon as possible. Sincerely, The Bank.

Interest that is compounded continuously is still only credited daily or monthly. The formula for continuously compounded interest only uses years as a time input, with the constant “e” playing a key role.

The interest for the year is calculated and then the credit is based on the number of days in the crediting period divided by 365 or 366 for leap years to get a daily or monthly number.
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Re: Did I earn an extra hour of interest last night?

Post by alpine_boglehead »

mrc wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:28 am
cjg wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:17 am Most well designed computer programs will store date/time events as UTC in the back end then convert to the user's time zone when displaying them. Not sure if there's any standard pattern used for pen/paper logs.
I know of at least one financial institution that shuts down their mainframe for about an hour when the time changes. But you did say well-designed!
This sounds like a practical remedy. At every single company I've worked for (5 so far) there were problems with daylight savings time switches, ranging from mild glitches to serious interruptions. Well-designed or not, it's just ultra easy to make mistakes when something assumed to be unique (like a point in time) suddenly isn't anymore. Some years ago lots of Java-based server software froze because of just a leap-second. :oops:
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Re: Did I earn an extra hour of interest last night?

Post by mrc »

Dealing with daylight time (or summer time in Europe) is an alternate form of the Y2K problem. A matter of convenience over precision. Early this morning, the time was:
  • 1:59:58 EDT UTC+6 epoch=~1497160798
  • 1:59:59 EDT UTC+6 epoch+1
  • 1:00:00 EST UTC+5 epoch+2
  • 1:00:01 EST UTC+5 epoch+3
These two times are not the same and occured only once:
  • 1:00:00 EDT UTC+6
  • 1:00:00 EST UTC+5
But this morning, it was "01:00:00" or 1:00AM twice.
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Re: Did I earn an extra hour of interest last night?

Post by mptfan »

nisiprius wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:23 amNowadays, is UTC used in courts of law for describing the time when events occurred?
No.
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Re: Did I earn an extra hour of interest last night?

Post by nisiprius »

mrc wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:28 am
cjg wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:17 amMost well designed computer programs will store date/time events as UTC in the back end then convert to the user's time zone when displaying them. Not sure if there's any standard pattern used for pen/paper logs.
I know of at least one financial institution that shuts down their mainframe for about an hour when the time changes. But you did say well-designed!
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Re: Did I earn an extra hour of interest last night?

Post by SimonJester »

dm200 wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:33 am 1. Although I have never taken such medications, I wonder how very, very precisely dosed medications are handled with a time change?
Nurses that are working the night shift run into this yearly and chart the time with either daylight time abbreviation or standard time abbreviation when the 2:00 am hour falls back to 1:00 am.
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Re: Did I earn an extra hour of interest last night?

Post by Halicar »

samsoes wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:26 am Worked in IT at Multi-state Mega Hospital for many years. It had been a problem when medical tests like blood draws had results posted (1:05 a.m.) before they occurred (15 minutes earlier: 1:50 a.m.), when the process spanned the changeover from daylight saving time to standard time. Eventually, this was mitigated to a degree by suspending system input during the first occurrence of the 1:00 hour (as if the system was down) and charting orders and results manually after the changeover using standard time as the input. Of course, this required runners, faxing, extra paperwork, etc., during the first hour. Most non-critical orders and tests were simply delayed during the system input suspension.
The "Futility Closet" podcast featured a story a while back about twins that were born the night the time changed, so the second-born twin actually had a time of birth before the first-born twin.
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Re: Did I earn an extra hour of interest last night?

Post by nisiprius »

mrc wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:05 am...These two times are not the same and occured only once:
  • 1:00:00 EDT UTC+6
  • 1:00:00 EST UTC+5
But this morning, it was "01:00:00" or 1:00AM twice.
:oops: Yes, of course. Obvious now that I think about it. If you are recording times of day that may occur on more than one time system, what is necessary is to record the time system along with the time. This morning, ninety minutes after midnight it was 01:30 EDT and then an hour later it was 01:30 EST. Got it.
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Re: Did I earn an extra hour of interest last night?

Post by WL2034 »

The hospital had computer network downtime last night spanning the end of daylight savings. The worst part about the end of daylight savings is working an overnight shift during that time (no extra pay). I actually wonder if the hourly employees get paid an extra hour for working the end of daylight savings. Anyone have experience with that?
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Re: Did I earn an extra hour of interest last night?

Post by mrc »

WL2034 wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:10 am The hospital had computer network downtime last night spanning the end of daylight savings. The worst part about the end of daylight savings is working an overnight shift during that time (no extra pay). I actually wonder if the hourly employees get paid an extra hour for working the end of daylight savings. Anyone have experience with that?
Yes, hourly workers at two of my employers paid an extra hour in the fall (paying 9 for working 9), and for 8 hours (working 7) in the spring.
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Re: Did I earn an extra hour of interest last night?

Post by mrc »

mrc wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:12 am
WL2034 wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:10 am The hospital had computer network downtime last night spanning the end of daylight savings. The worst part about the end of daylight savings is working an overnight shift during that time (no extra pay). I actually wonder if the hourly employees get paid an extra hour for working the end of daylight savings. Anyone have experience with that?
Yes, hourly workers at two of my employers paid an extra hour in the fall (paying 9 for working 9), and for paying 8 hours (working 7) in the spring.
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Re: Did I earn an extra hour of interest last night?

Post by radiowave »

WL2034 wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:10 am The hospital had computer network downtime last night spanning the end of daylight savings. The worst part about the end of daylight savings is working an overnight shift during that time (no extra pay). I actually wonder if the hourly employees get paid an extra hour for working the end of daylight savings. Anyone have experience with that?
So what did everyone do this morning with their "extra" hour? I made my spouse blueberry pancakes and bacon then settled down for a few minutes of reading on the Bogleheads forum :)

As for the night shift dilemma, I worked as a nurse for many years in ICU/CCU, we were paid for hours worked, so got 13 hours in fall, 11 hours in spring but it works out on an annual basis. One year I forgot to set my clock back in the fall and wound up getting to the ICU an hour early for day shift - I got a few smiles from my coworkers.
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Re: Did I earn an extra hour of interest last night?

Post by Mudpuppy »

mptfan wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:06 am
nisiprius wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:23 amNowadays, is UTC used in courts of law for describing the time when events occurred?
No.
I don't know many courts of law that would be in operation during the 1:00am/2:00am/1:00am local time shift. As already noted up-thread, hospitals and other places with night shifts are where this most frequently comes into play. From a computer perspective, referring to everything in UTC solves the problem, because the end of daylight savings time is just a perceptual shift relative to UTC (which remains unchanged), but humans are not so good with that solution. It sounds like hospitals have a variety of techniques to cope with the time change though.
radiowave wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:18 am So what did everyone do this morning with their "extra" hour? I made my spouse blueberry pancakes and bacon then settled down for a few minutes of reading on the Bogleheads forum :)
I had an "extra" couple of hours since my one of my cats started meowing at weekday wakeup time instead of weekend wakeup time. They get breakfast at the same time all days of the week, but this one just wanted attention. I spent my "extra" time doing laundry and reformulating a fish tank stand build since the first attempt resulted in split 2x4s. Now debating renting a framing nail gun to do the rebuild attempt after reading a few forums.
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Re: Did I earn an extra hour of interest last night?

Post by radiowave »

I spent my "extra" time doing laundry and reformulating a fish tank stand build since the first attempt resulted in split 2x4s. Now debating renting a framing nail gun to do the rebuild attempt after reading a few forums.
If you use a drill and smaller size bit then countersink and use screws instead of nails, that might help the split wood issue. Just a friendly trip :)
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Re: Did I earn an extra hour of interest last night?

Post by TravelGeek »

radiowave wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:18 am So what did everyone do this morning with their "extra" hour? I made my spouse blueberry pancakes and bacon then settled down for a few minutes of reading on the Bogleheads forum :)
Shoveled snow :) read BH :beer
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Re: Did I earn an extra hour of interest last night?

Post by Mudpuppy »

radiowave wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:07 pm
I spent my "extra" time doing laundry and reformulating a fish tank stand build since the first attempt resulted in split 2x4s. Now debating renting a framing nail gun to do the rebuild attempt after reading a few forums.
If you use a drill and smaller size bit then countersink and use screws instead of nails, that might help the split wood issue. Just a friendly trip :)
Already did that: drilled a pilot hole, countersunk about 3/8", and tried both #8 and #10 screws. The technique worked on a previous build using entirely #10 screws, but not this time. I can't discount the possibility of poor quality 2x4's though. I had an actual lumber yard nearby on the previous build, but there's only big box stores around here now.
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Re: Did I earn an extra hour of interest last night?

Post by mrc »

Mudpuppy wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:32 am ... I spent my "extra" time doing laundry and reformulating a fish tank stand build since the first attempt resulted in split 2x4s. Now debating renting a framing nail gun to do the rebuild attempt after reading a few forums.
Screws are superior to nails. Low quality lumber that splits when you drill & screw could explode if you try a nail gun, especially near the ends. Grain direction matters too.
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Re: Did I earn an extra hour of interest last night?

Post by Watty »

nisiprius wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:14 am
mrc wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:28 am
cjg wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:17 amMost well designed computer programs will store date/time events as UTC in the back end then convert to the user's time zone when displaying them. Not sure if there's any standard pattern used for pen/paper logs.
I know of at least one financial institution that shuts down their mainframe for about an hour when the time changes. But you did say well-designed!
Part of me says "that is very stupid," and part of me says "that is truly wise." I think "wise" wins.
I'm a retired computer programmer.

Many large computer systems are brought down and restarted once a week or once a month anyway to do things like software updates and backups. Often this is early on Sunday morning anyway. Bringing the system down during the time change might be more of a matter of rescheduling when the normal downtime is scheduled than bringing the system down just because of the time change.

The extra hour can be a boon to someone that needs to bring the equipment down since they can work longer and still have the system back up by 6:00 AM the next day. I can remember at least one large computer system conversion that I worked on that was intentionally scheduled for the night that daylight savings time ended so that we could have that extra hour.

The security concerns could also be a good reason to bring systems down during the time change. The computer security may not have been extensively tested during a time change so there could be some vulnerability that only happens during that window.
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Re: Did I earn an extra hour of interest last night?

Post by jhfenton »

dm200 wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:33 am 2. One of my "pet peeves" (but I could be wrong) is the use of EST (Eastern Standard Time) to mean "Local time" during the period of daylight Savings Time. So, in the Eastern Time Zone, in the summer, if something is to happen at 1:00 pm - I would say or write 1:00 pm EDT (Eastern Daylight Time) and not EST because (by my logic) 1:00 pm EDT is 12:00 Noon EST. Or, I might say 1:00 pm ET.
I have to change this language all the time in contracts. I'm amazed at how often I received contracts with technical support hours expressed in terms of EST. I always change it to prevailing Eastern Time at our headquarters, because we want (and they generally offer) adjusted support schedules for EDT to accommodate the change in time. (And since sometimes the support comes from overseas, it doesn't go without saying.)
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Re: Did I earn an extra hour of interest last night?

Post by dm200 »

I have to change this language all the time in contracts. I'm amazed at how often I received contracts with technical support hours expressed in terms of EST
Glad I am not the only one with this same opinion :)
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Re: Did I earn an extra hour of interest last night?

Post by ram »

As a resident physician long ago I have charted a note once which stated (approx):
1.50 AM DST : Patient unresponsive. Resuscitation started.
1.20 AM Std Time: Declared dead.
This was a time of handwritten notes. Only lab results were on the computer at that time.

I also remember our responses along the lines of : "S... I am getting that night shift" in the fall and " Yipee. I am getting that shift" in the spring. We were all paid the same irrespective of a 11 or 13 hour shift.
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Re: Did I earn an extra hour of interest last night?

Post by gks »

nisiprius,

Good question for us that live in daylight savings time states. Since most of us have a 25 hour day here, what about Arizona and Hawaii? Those two states don't have DST. Curious about how that would be programmed into computers. Probably simple based on an official addresses.

Greg

http://www.answers.com/Q/What_states_do ... aving_time
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Re: Did I earn an extra hour of interest last night?

Post by Veiled »

SimonJester wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:17 am
dm200 wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:33 am 1. Although I have never taken such medications, I wonder how very, very precisely dosed medications are handled with a time change?
Nurses that are working the night shift run into this yearly and chart the time with either daylight time abbreviation or standard time abbreviation when the 2:00 am hour falls back to 1:00 am.
If it's really precise, the patient just changes the dosing time every time we spring forward and fall back. But most things aren't that precise and can be given +/-1 hour with no problem. I worked last night and the RNs had to drop notes in the chart stating that daylight savings time ended to explain any apparent discrepancies in our EMR.
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Re: Did I earn an extra hour of interest last night?

Post by Mudpuppy »

mrc wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:50 pm
Mudpuppy wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:32 am ... I spent my "extra" time doing laundry and reformulating a fish tank stand build since the first attempt resulted in split 2x4s. Now debating renting a framing nail gun to do the rebuild attempt after reading a few forums.
Screws are superior to nails. Low quality lumber that splits when you drill & screw could explode if you try a nail gun, especially near the ends. Grain direction matters too.
Not universally, which really should be a wood-working mantra. Screws have more tendency to sheer under torque than framing nails. That's why building codes only allow framing nails and do not allow screws for load-bearing walls, since an earthquake or high winds can cause such stresses on the building frame. Using screws on a load-bearing build like a fish tank stand is inferior to using framing nails, but framing nails are a pain unless one has a framing nail gun. Screws are "good enough" for most fish tank stands since they aren't getting twisted around too often and a 2x4 frame is already better at carrying loads than a pre-built stand from the pet store. But framing nails are still the superior tool for this task. See about the 1:50 mark in this video for a demonstration of the difference between screws and framing nails: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypM4U0ftSqc
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Re: Did I earn an extra hour of interest last night?

Post by Mudpuppy »

gks wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:39 pm nisiprius,

Good question for us that live in daylight savings time states. Since most of us have a 25 hour day here, what about Arizona and Hawaii? Those two states don't have DST. Curious about how that would be programmed into computers. Probably simple based on an official addresses.

Greg

http://www.answers.com/Q/What_states_do ... aving_time
Computers have timezone files that tell them all the data they need to know about all the timezones that exist around the world. Not observing DST is not really that odd. There's plenty of weirder timezones to be found internationally.
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Re: Did I earn an extra hour of interest last night?

Post by nedsaid »

nisiprius wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:09 am Last night (or in the wee hours of this morning), the time crept forward to 2 a.m. 11/5/2017, then fell back to 1 a.m., then crept forward to 2 a.m. again. Thus calendar day 11/5/2017 contains 25 hours. In whatever kind of accounting calculations carry results to many decimal places--"continuously compounded" bank accounts and so forth--does this day earn or owe 25/24ths as much interest as most days?

Also, there were two moments on 11/5/2017 when the clock read 01:30 hours. In situations where formal, legal event logs are being kept, how do they record and distinguish between the 01:30 am 10/5/2017 that occurred 90 minutes after midnight from the 01:30 am 10/5/2017 that occurred 150 minutes after midnight? Do they have a notation for this, 01:30a and 01:30b or anything like that? I was surprised that I couldn't find this in five minutes of Googling. Wikipedia notes that "During an autumn transition from 02:00 to 01:00, a clock reads times from 01:00:00 through 01:59:59 twice, possibly leading to confusion," but give no indication of how this ambiguity is resolved in official records... and the reference they cite doesn't discuss it at all.
I hope you didn't lose an hour of sleep thinking about this last night. :wink:
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Re: Did I earn an extra hour of interest last night?

Post by bikechuck »

All I know for sure is that I woke up one hour younger this morning.
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Re: Did I earn an extra hour of interest last night?

Post by mmcmonster »

I'm a big fan of the (extremely nerdy) comic strip XKCD.

This thread reminds me of one of the comics: https://www.xkcd.com/1883/

For an in-depth explanation, there is the sister website version (with the explanation below the strip): https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/1883
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Re: Did I earn an extra hour of interest last night?

Post by gks »

Mudpuppy wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:57 pm
gks wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:39 pm nisiprius,

Good question for us that live in daylight savings time states. Since most of us have a 25 hour day here, what about Arizona and Hawaii? Those two states don't have DST. Curious about how that would be programmed into computers. Probably simple based on an official addresses.

Greg

http://www.answers.com/Q/What_states_do ... aving_time
Computers have timezone files that tell them all the data they need to know about all the timezones that exist around the world. Not observing DST is not really that odd. There's plenty of weirder timezones to be found internationally.
Mudpuppy,

Completely agree. Read someplace that North Korea is a half hour off any locally observed times.

Greg
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Re: Did I earn an extra hour of interest last night?

Post by gks »

gks wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:23 pm
Mudpuppy wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:57 pm
gks wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:39 pm nisiprius,

Good question for us that live in daylight savings time states. Since most of us have a 25 hour day here, what about Arizona and Hawaii? Those two states don't have DST. Curious about how that would be programmed into computers. Probably simple based on an official addresses.

Greg

http://www.answers.com/Q/What_states_do ... aving_time
Computers have timezone files that tell them all the data they need to know about all the timezones that exist around the world. Not observing DST is not really that odd. There's plenty of weirder timezones to be found internationally.
Mudpuppy,

Completely agree. Read someplace that North Korea is a half hour off any locally observed times.

Greg
p.s.

But then, I don't think NK can invest in any of the instruments that we can invest.
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Re: Did I earn an extra hour of interest last night?

Post by nedsaid »

Any way to arbitrage the 1/2 hour difference in time zones?
A fool and his money are good for business.
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Re: Did I earn an extra hour of interest last night?

Post by Mudpuppy »

gks wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:23 pm
Mudpuppy wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:57 pm Computers have timezone files that tell them all the data they need to know about all the timezones that exist around the world. Not observing DST is not really that odd. There's plenty of weirder timezones to be found internationally.
Mudpuppy,

Completely agree. Read someplace that North Korea is a half hour off any locally observed times.

Greg
It's not just North Korea that's got a 30 minute offset. There's quite a few 30 minute offset zones and there's also a couple of places with 45 minute offsets: https://www.timeanddate.com/time/time-z ... sting.html
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Re: Did I earn an extra hour of interest last night?

Post by gks »

Mudpuppy wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:44 pm
gks wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:23 pm
Mudpuppy wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:57 pm Computers have timezone files that tell them all the data they need to know about all the timezones that exist around the world. Not observing DST is not really that odd. There's plenty of weirder timezones to be found internationally.
Mudpuppy,

Completely agree. Read someplace that North Korea is a half hour off any locally observed times.

Greg
It's not just North Korea that's got a 30 minute offset. There's quite a few 30 minute offset zones and there's also a couple of places with 45 minute offsets: https://www.timeanddate.com/time/time-z ... sting.html
Now that is really interesting.

Greg


edit: I think you and I are getting away from nisiprius' original post.

G
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Re: Did I earn an extra hour of interest last night?

Post by Phineas J. Whoopee »

We individuals, most of us anyway, are credited interest by the day or longer, so no to what may have been a tongue-in-cheek question. There exist institutions, perhaps mostly foreign and ex-US branches of US firms (my direct knowledge is from continental Europe), which invest enormous amounts and indeed are credited interest hourly. I do not know how the transitions to and from Summer Time (as it's named there) affect them.

On a barely-related note, which I believe legitimately falls into this consumer issues subforum, years ago I traveled most of the train-accessible US on Amtrak. Not by design, but with interest aforethought, one segment of one trip took place on the night DST ended. We pulled onto a siding, and sat, motionless, for one hour, then proceeded. I don't know if freight was handled the same way.

In case you want to know why I was awake to notice, I was traveling extra cheap in those days, so I was in the chair car. I have slept in them, but not well, so even a modicum of curiosity was enough to keep me up.

Oh, and one more thing:

Remember remember the fifth of November,
Gunpowder, treason, and plot.
I see no reason why gunpowder treason
Should ever be forgot.

Happy (so to speak) Guy Fawkes Day.

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Last edited by Phineas J. Whoopee on Sun Nov 05, 2017 5:10 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Did I earn an extra hour of interest last night?

Post by Ged »

nisiprius wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:09 am Last night (or in the wee hours of this morning), the time crept forward to 2 a.m. 11/5/2017, then fell back to 1 a.m., then crept forward to 2 a.m. again. Thus calendar day 11/5/2017 contains 25 hours
Nah you just paid back the loan of one hour's interest from March 12. Surprisingly it was interest free.
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Re: Did I earn an extra hour of interest last night?

Post by White Coat Investor »

WL2034 wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:10 am The hospital had computer network downtime last night spanning the end of daylight savings. The worst part about the end of daylight savings is working an overnight shift during that time (no extra pay). I actually wonder if the hourly employees get paid an extra hour for working the end of daylight savings. Anyone have experience with that?
Yes, you get paid for another hour in the fall and one hour less in the Spring if you're working the overnight shift.
1) Invest you must 2) Time is your friend 3) Impulse is your enemy | 4) Basic arithmetic works 5) Stick to simplicity 6) Stay the course
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Re: Did I earn an extra hour of interest last night?

Post by Phineas J. Whoopee »

White Coat Investor wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:38 pm ...
Yes, you get paid for another hour in the fall and one hour less in the Spring if you're working the overnight shift.
Physicians without their own practices aren't even on salary? Do you have to go on strike to demand time and a half, and at least an eight-hour break between working hours (if not a resident, obviously)?

Do you have to punch in and out, or are you trusted to submit accurate timesheets on your own?

Do you have to provide a customer billing number, like working on this, that, or the other case for each twelve minutes just like attorneys?

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Re: Did I earn an extra hour of interest last night?

Post by nisiprius »

Tangentially... I saw one of these things in Staples a couple of years ago, bought it, and it has made me happy. The product line is called Emerson SmartSet.

Image

It says "Automatically Sets Itself to the Correct Year, Month, Date, Day and Time as Soon as You Plug It In and After Every Power Interruption; Button Battery (Included) Maintains Time and Alarm Settings; Automatically recognizes DST."

There is some phonus-balonus involved, but it actually works as described, even though it goes through some meaningless theatre when you turn it on in which it pretends to be "scanning..." something. Out of the box, when you plug it in, it only shows right time if you happen to live in the Eastern time zone! It becomes clear on reading the directions that it is just a very accurate clock, with a battery backed-up timekeeper, that knows the rules for daylight savings time, and is preset at the factory for the correct time and date in the U.S. time zone. They warn that it won't work in states that don't observe daylight savings time! They warn you that you will need to make one initial setting if you are in one of the other time zones. There is also... I forget how they phrase it, but there is a way to correct the time if it drifts off the correct time. It is clearly going to stop working if the daylight savings rules are ever changed. It is not getting the time from WWV or cell phone towers.
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Re: Did I earn an extra hour of interest last night?

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Phineas J. Whoopee wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:57 pm On a barely-related note, which I believe legitimately falls into this consumer issues subforum, years ago I traveled most of the train-accessible US on Amtrak. Not by design, but with interest aforethought, one segment of one trip took place on the night DST ended. We pulled onto a siding, and sat, motionless, for one hour, then proceeded. I don't know if freight was handled the same way.
This is an Amtrak tradition. Amtrak has a nightly Washington-Boston run, and the train stops at 2:00 AM.

But if it didn't stop right at 2:00 AM, it would have to stop anyway when it reached the next station. If it arrived at a station at 1:15 EST for a scheduled 2:15 departure, it would wait in the station to avoid leaving an hour ahead of schedule.
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Re: Did I earn an extra hour of interest last night?

Post by oncorhynchus »

cjg wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:17 am Most well designed computer programs will store date/time events as UTC in the back end then convert to the user's time zone when displaying them. Not sure if there's any standard pattern used for pen/paper logs.
ram wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:09 pm As a resident physician long ago I have charted a note once which stated (approx):
1.50 AM DST : Patient unresponsive. Resuscitation started.
1.20 AM Std Time: Declared dead.
This was a time of handwritten notes. Only lab results were on the computer at that time.

I also remember our responses along the lines of : "S... I am getting that night shift" in the fall and " Yipee. I am getting that shift" in the spring. We were all paid the same irrespective of a 11 or 13 hour shift.

I quickly learned to embrace UTC or "Zulu" time notation while doing narrative summaries during my resident rotation in the ICU at Landstuhl Regional Medical Center in Germany. Patients would be MEDEVAC'd halfway across the world and multiple time zones within 72 hours, with differing rules for daylight savings. All the in-flight patient records by the Air Force used Zulu time (and Julian dates), but the written and even EMR records from downrange were almost always "Lima" or local time. I spent an inordinate amount of time with maps of Afghanistan and Iraq, converting dates/times to Zulu based on point of injury & subsequent location of care.

o
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Re: Did I earn an extra hour of interest last night?

Post by Phineas J. Whoopee »

grabiner wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:56 pm ...
But if it didn't stop right at 2:00 AM, it would have to stop anyway when it reached the next station. If it arrived at a station at 1:15 EST for a scheduled 2:15 departure, it would wait in the station to avoid leaving an hour ahead of schedule.
Indeed, that's one thing I learned in my travels. I wasn't surprised, but had never thought about it before. A passenger train can run late, but it can't run ahead of schedule, because the railroad sells tickets telling people to get to the station by whatever time, to board.
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Re: Did I earn an extra hour of interest last night?

Post by lazydavid »

Mudpuppy wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:32 am I don't know many courts of law that would be in operation during the 1:00am/2:00am/1:00am local time shift.
The court's typical hours of operation have absolutely no bearing on when the events described during the hearings in those courtrooms actually occurred.
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Re: Did I earn an extra hour of interest last night?

Post by mouses »

SimonJester wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:17 am
dm200 wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:33 am 1. Although I have never taken such medications, I wonder how very, very precisely dosed medications are handled with a time change?
Nurses that are working the night shift run into this yearly and chart the time with either daylight time abbreviation or standard time abbreviation when the 2:00 am hour falls back to 1:00 am.
I wouldn't say that the every twelve hour meds I take are very very precisely dosed, but I always transition them over about three days.
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