Did Charmin UltraSoft TP become "UltraThin"?

[ResearchMed]

"And now for something completely different"...

A "delicate" topic...
And absolutely a First World Problem:

We just purchased new supply of Charmin UltraSoft, which we've used for years.
EDIT TO ADD: This was indeed the same packaging, and it was indeed "two ply".

Has something changed (for the worse), or did we somehow get a bad "batch"?

Suddenly, it's so very thin, and the "blind embossing" is virtually invisible. That's no surprise, because blind embossing needs some "depth" to it, or ... there is nothing to show.
I'm guessing that this UltraThin explains the recent major promo ads for the "6 rolls within one".
Previously, the "MegaRolls" had "4 rolls within one".
And this package is still the "4" version, not the "6" version, which may be even worse (??).

We would much rather pay a bit more and continue to get the same great product, but we obviously don't have that choice.
We are returning a few big packs.
(Suggestions for a nice soft/absorbent premium TP are welcome.)

(We even used this for our vacation rental cabins. When we first started, we got rave reviews/comments about everything... except many complaints about the cheaper TP. Yes, we were quite startled. However, that was easy to change, and fast. Complaints stopped immediately when we switched.)

Sorry to rant about TP.
(For those who are currently finding BH "boring", perhaps this will provide a bit of comic relief... )

RM

[student]

I don't know anything better than Charmin UltraSoft. I guess you can always "double" it up for a thicker feel.

[ResearchMed]

I don't know anything better than Charmin UltraSoft. I guess you can always "double" it up for a thicker feel.

When you next purchase a new supply, would you let me know if you notice a difference?
It would be nice if there was just a temporary quality control problem.
But I suspect that with the big promo about "6 rolls on one", the only way to do that is to make them all thinner.

It's sort of like DIet Coke for us. Not particularly price sensitive.
Also a situation of "Accept no substitutes!" (What product used that slogan decades ago?)

Thanks.

RM

[student]

I don't know anything better than Charmin UltraSoft. I guess you can always "double" it up for a thicker feel.

When you next purchase a new supply, would you let me know if you notice a difference?
It would be nice if there was just a temporary quality control problem.
But I suspect that with the big promo about "6 rolls on one", the only way to do that is to make them all thinner.

It's sort of like DIet Coke for us. Not particularly price sensitive.
Also a situation of "Accept no substitutes!" (What product used that slogan decades ago?)

Thanks.

RM

I just looked as I have bought the new kind like yours. I don't see much of a difference just by looking.

[William4u]

Charmin UltraSoft ued to be out go to tp. Now they are not so good. They are about an inch more narrow than before, and not the same quality. Let me know if you find something better. We are trying other brands for the first time in 20 years.

[DrGoogle2017]

Anything is better than what is the safe, very safe withdrawal rate for the umpteenth time. Haha. I only managed to switch over to Ultra Charmin after running my I-Orp, this is after years of using Kirkland, a Costco brand.

[mhalley]

I guess you could combine the two topics: is it safe to use 4 squares when you are near the end of the roll and experiencing a bad sequence of returns of Taco Bell for lunch, or do you play it safe with 2?

[mancich]

"Can you spare a square?" - Elaine from Seinfeld...

[spectec]

I think Sam's Club store brand is better than anything on the market, both in terms of quality and price. (just adding another layer of info to the conversation here).

[arcticpineapplecorp.]

It's called "Shrinkflation".

In economics, shrinkflation is the process of items shrinking in size or quantity while their prices remain the same or increase.

Ain't economics grand?

https://www.google.com/search?q=shrinkf ... 8&oe=utf-8

[Kenkat]

I prefer the Charmin Ultra Strong over the Ultra Soft and that's all I'm going to say about that.

[beardsworth]

It's called "Shrinkflation".

In economics, shrinkflation is the process of items shrinking in size or quantity while their prices remain the same or increase.

Ain't economics grand?

https://www.google.com/search?q=shrinkf ... 8&oe=utf-8

Just as 2x4 lumber is no longer 2x4. And cans of soup or vegetables used to contain 16 ounces, then shrank to 15.5 ounces, then 15 ounces, then 14.75 ounces (although the cans didn't). And prescription drugs or over-the-counter meds or vitamin supplements which come in huge bottles--which are mostly filled with air because there are only 50 pills, or 100, or whatever. And . . . many other examples.

As arcticpineapple says, its a way of increasing profits by cheapening product but not price.

Regarding TP, don't know nothin' about Charmin specifically, but we use a brand which boasts of 1000 sheets per roll, and I could swear that the sheets have gotten less substantial than they used to be, although the regular price has, of course, not gone down.

[bob60014]

What a cra--y subject! Might have to resort to using the Sears catalog in the outhouse again.

"Shrinkflation".... yep it's happening everywhere. 6 oz. yogurts are now 5.3 oz, coffee 36 oz is now 29.5 - 30oz....and on and on.

[vshun]

Charmin has not been rated by CR well in the past few years. Top paper is sold by Walmart (forgot the name but its White-something and its 3-ply) followed by Northern which sometimes goes on sale in Costco.

[ResearchMed]

UPDATE:

I've been on the phone with the "hotline" (can think of all sorts of jokes here...!) at Procter & Gamble.

The phone rep was surprisingly interested in what I was reporting. I had expected to be (no pun intended) blown off with something like "That couldn't be our product, you must be mistaken" or such.

Interestingly, the bar code on the plastic wrapper does not show up in her system (?).
So either they do indeed have a new product, and haven't updated their customer service data base, or - as DH just suggested with a wink - we have... is this even possible?... counterfeit TP.
And the code inside the roll starts with the wrong number (should start with a different number, for the mfg location).
No, we've double checked our memories. We definitely did not purchase these on a street corner in Times Square.

However, the rep had one thought. They do have a new product called "Charmin Essentials", which is available in either double or single ply.
It is much thinner (and cheaper), and is not embossed (not what we have; our new junk has very faint embossing).
She wondered if maybe there was (my terminology here) a switcheroo in the nursery...

We also have a new package of the "12 Double Rolls" (not Mega), and those are junk, too.

I also found a full "old roll" of what we've used for years, and nope... these are completely different critters. No mistake possible.

P&G is sending us a pre-paid mailer, to send 2 rolls, one Mega and one Double, and we are going to include a photo printout of the "impossible" bar code on each package.

But what still has us shaking our heads is how seriously the rep took all of this, the info she wanted, and the fact that they are sending that large mailer.
I'm going to include a couple of sheets from the "good" (old) roll, too.

Actually, for travel to places where there might not be TP easily available, we tend to collect the "ends" of rolls (about 1/4 - 1/2 inch thick of the tissue paper). Then we flatten those out, and put a few in a ziplock (and toss one or two in a day tote when traveling like that).
Yup, we have a few of those here, so I'll toss one, complete with cardboard tube that has a code starting with the correct digit, in the mailer with one of the double and one of the mega rolls.

It would be great if there was a mixup, but we both suspect that there is a "new and lesser" product.
IF it was just a smaller quantity of the *same* product, we'd adjust, but maybe (only maybe) complain about the stealth packaging.
Unfortunately, this is NOT the same product, and it's not even close.

Okay... enough time on the critical topics of the day.

RM

[mrc]

Anyone on the fence over the BH getting less interesting thread can now choose a side

My mom uses A LOT of TP. Prefers Scots 1000 sheet 1-ply (pretty thin) to anything else to prevent clogs. Says she can double up when necessary, but can't split the thicker stuff apart.

[spectec]

To keep this uninteresting thread even more so, let me suggest another TP travel hack. Instead of flattening the cardboard center of the partial rolls, just pull the cardboard center out altogether and discard it. You can do this with full rolls as well. The roll will flatten even more, also making great filler for unused space in your bag, especially around the perimeter.

[beardsworth]

Anyone on the fence over the BH getting less interesting thread can now choose a side

To keep this uninteresting thread even more so

I don't find this thread uninteresting at all.

But perhaps a sufficient number of opinions have been expressed that it's time to wipe it up, while the thread is still flush with success, before the tone of the dialogue turns septic.

[Small Change]

Costco's magazine had a discussion in its August 2017 issue on Costco's version of Charmin Ultra Soft.

Costco says the version it sells is "exclusive to Costco" and "is the best-quality Charmin Ultra Soft that Procter & Gamble produces." It is wider (4.5" vs. 3.92" sold elsewhere) and "14 percent thicker than Charmin sold at other retailers."

Link to article:

http://www.costcoconnection.com/connect ... pg=56#pg56

[ResearchMed]

Costco's magazine had a discussion in its August 2017 issue on Costco's version of Charmin Ultra Soft.

Costco says the version it sells is "exclusive to Costco" and "is the best-quality Charmin Ultra Soft that Procter & Gamble produces." It is wider (4.5" vs. 3.92" sold elsewhere) and "14 percent thicker than Charmin sold at other retailers."

Link to article:

http://www.costcoconnection.com/connect ... pg=56#pg56

Thanks very much.

There is a Costco in the general area, but not where we ordinarily go.
However, for staples, we could load up the car, and while there, get a few other things we'd want in quantity.

But I think I'll buy one package, and open it right there and then, to double check first, just in case this really is a "Charmin Ultra-Soft - wide" change.

If the rolls had contained less product... that we are all familiar with.
But why didn't they just raise the price on the UltraSoft, while introducing "Essentials" (single or double ply) at a lower price point?
(Is the "Essentials" type really new? We just don't remember seeing that or the "yellow package", etc., but we'll probably notice it when we return all these packages of junk. IF we were to be satisfied with cheap TP, we'd at least want to "pay cheap"!)

Thanks.

RM

[Crimsontide]

You are correct. I immediately noticed this difference with the new package I bought this week. Not even close to the original. The roll itself is much larger in circumference, however, it is narrower and the two ply sheets much thinner...

[ResearchMed]

You are correct. I immediately noticed this difference with the new package I bought this week. Not even close to the original. The roll itself is much larger in circumference, however, it is narrower and the two ply sheets much thinner...

Right. It's not a "close call" in any way.

I'll be very curious about their response when we send them the "new" rolls (both a Mega, which they requested, and a Double, which we hadn't yet noticed), along with the partial of the nice, old Charmin UltraSoft. I hesitate to use that phrase for the new stuff.

It will also be interesting to find out if they ever update their customer service data base such that it has the "real" code, the one that isn't in their data base today.

It's just... JUNK.
The change is so dramatic, it's hard to believe they thought they could pull this off.
I wonder if they are (ahem) rolling this out in stages across the country.

Maybe we'll be reminded of the "New Coke" debacle a few decades ago?

Thanks.

RM

[itstoomuch]

We have a septic and a pump to the drain field. Strong tp causes havoc to our system and a backup had ruined a floor. We decided to make a one time, known expense rather than continuing and increasing expense in TP purchases. We now use quality TP as facial napkins at the kitchen counter and use a bidet seat the other end of the universe.
YcheeksMV

[itstoomuch]

Any CPAs today?
I wonder if I can depreciate -capitalize bidettes at our rentals.

[itstoomuch]

Always be backtesting.

[bertilak]

In 2014 I spent $25,000 to install a new, engineered, septic system.

The engineer specified the use of Scott 1000 TP because it was better tolerated septic systems. I wasn't sure so did an experiment. I did the same thing for each of to two different TP brands, Scott 1000 and some other brand (probably Charmin, but I don't remember for sure):

• Put two single plys of TP for each brand in an 8-ounce glass of water.
• Stirred each up good.
• Let them sit overnight.

Results:

• The Scott 100 glass looked like a snow globe. Lots of very fine, suspended, particles floating around.
• The fancy brand glass had broken up, but still distinct, sheets of TP floating around.

Perhaps things would have evened out in another day.

This is not a recommendation but a possible answer to the mystery. The Scott TP says on the label "Safe for septic systems" (or some such wording). There are brands that don't say that or say something less encouraging like "safe for municipal treatment systems," meaning more robust systems. I think (but am not sure) there are regulations about what is allowed to be said along these lines. Perhaps Charmin is going for a more "green" designation.

[ResearchMed]

Always be backtesting.

Oh noooooooooooooooooooooooooo!



RM

[sport]

Costco has two TP products. The purple package is the Ultra Soft. The blue package is a cheaper product. This link shows the good product:
https://www.costco.com/Kirkland-Signatu ... 84187.html

[Fallible]

It's called "Shrinkflation".

In economics, shrinkflation is the process of items shrinking in size or quantity while their prices remain the same or increase.

Ain't economics grand?
https://www.google.com/search?q=shrinkf ... 8&oe=utf-8

Thanks, I now have a word for the downsizing of not only TP, but just about every other product over the years, including clothes and boxed food.

[SimonJester]

We picked up Costco's Kirkland brand TP this last time and we are not impressed. Real thin, not soft, prone to the "brown finger poncho" effect.

I do think we are all rather spoiled here in the first world...

[ResearchMed]

We picked up Costco's Kirkland brand TP this last time and we are not impressed. Real thin, not soft, prone to the "brown finger poncho" effect.

I do think we are all rather spoiled here in the first world...

Yes, this is, admittedly, definitely a first world problem.
(...which we especially appreciate when we don't remember to bring along one of our little "end rolls" on an outing overseas. Or even within the USA at certain times/places.)
ETA: This reminds me of when I went to live in overseas a few decades ago. The TP in most public stalls consisted of tiny squares of what could best be described as a cheap version of waxed paper. That was "interesting" at times.

Was this a first purchase, or is the quality lower than previously, for the same product?
And was it the product linked to, above, the "UltraSoft" one specifically?
If that has changed, too, then no point in driving to Costco, or dealing with a delivery of 36 rolls of the same junk...

They had a winner. Why didn't they just increase the price somewhat (preferably slowly for their sake) and/or have a few squares fewer on each roll, rather than, er, drop the bottom out of the quality!?

Thanks.

RM

[deskjockey]

We picked up Costco's Kirkland brand TP this last time and we are not impressed. Real thin, not soft, prone to the "brown finger poncho" effect.

I do think we are all rather spoiled here in the first world...

You'd think, but not all of the first world has access to quality TP. In the UK, TP is, well, cr@ppy. So cr@ppy, in fact, that I don't understand how the Brits can make do with the stuff. It disintegrates on sight. Completely uncivilized!

Same goes for their paper towels, too.

[spectec]

In some countries, it's smart to carry a few pair of latex or rubber gloves in your pocket, just in case your main plan fails and you need to go Rambo style.

[1210sda]

Charmin has not been rated by CR well in the past few years. Top paper is sold by Walmart (forgot the name but its White-something and its 3-ply) followed by Northern which sometimes goes on sale in Costco.

I too forgot the name. I don't normally grocery shop at Walmart, but I would make a special trip just for this TP recommended by CR.

Well, It was great for a while, but then the quality control became lousy. Making sure we bought the identical product each time, we noticed that it would be very strong at times, very soft at others, easy to tear, and then horrible to tear....always ripping in the middle. After putting up with this for a while, we switched to Charmin.

It saddens me to now hear that even that is going down the tubes .

1210

[Small Change]

Costco sells various brands of toilet paper (https://www.costco.com/CatalogSearch?ke ... ageSize=96), including:

Charmin Ultra Soft discussed in the August 2017 Costco Connection article (http://www.costcoconnection.com/connect ... =56#pg56) ...
Link to that product:
https://www.costco.com/Charmin-Ultra-So ... m3%2Fl0%3D

...And two Costco private-label (Kirkland) products:

https://www.costco.com/Kirkland-Signatu ... 42093.html

https://www.costco.com/Kirkland-Signatu ... 84187.html

It appears most/all of these offerings are available on costco.com, but my local Costco store only stocks a few of these items.

[sport]

We picked up Costco's Kirkland brand TP this last time and we are not impressed. Real thin, not soft, prone to the "brown finger poncho" effect.

You must have bought the cheaper variety. The better product is very good. Look for the name "Ultra Soft".

[Small Change]

The New York Times Co.'s Sweethome had a good roundup in February 2017 on toilet paper:

http://thesweethome.com/reviews/the-best-toilet-paper/

It concluded Charmin UItra Soft

was not ultra-soft, or ultra-anything to our panelists.

[caffeperfavore]

I've noticed the same thing. I've purchased it for the past few years from Costco. The last bunch I bought has been, eh, easily torn, resulting in...uh...unpleasant contact. I've never had an issue before.

I'm happy to go into more detail for anyone eating lunch. But yeah, they've really changed whatever they're doing to it.

[dbltrbl]

You can order from Costco online and they deliver right to your front door no deliver charge.

[Nate79]

Thank you for getting to the bottom of this issue....

[TheHouse7]

Anyone on the fence over the BH getting less interesting thread can now choose a side

My mom uses A LOT of TP. Prefers Scots 1000 sheet 1-ply (pretty thin) to anything else to prevent clogs. Says she can double up when necessary, but can't split the thicker stuff apart.

+1 but it helps my mother in law because she is so cheap only buying 4 rolls at a time (retired at 58)

[retiredjg]

I've been fascinated by the evolution of toilet paper over the last 60 years, but mostly the last 10 years. And I'm glad we finally have an interesting topic to follow for a few days. That "bogleheads is boring" topic has not been interesting since page 1....

ResearchMed, do give us an update when you hear back from the Charmin people. The idea of counterfeit toilet paper is a hoot. And not at all impossible.

[Teague]

I also noticed aluminum foil becoming thinner over the years, with the "heavy duty" label assigned to a thinner foil during a transition period. Candy bars have gotten smaller, ice cream containers too, and so on. Pretty sure it's just the way things go.

*Note: While toilet paper and aluminum foil are both useful items, they are not interchangeable!

[SmileyFace]

We switched to Scotts when Charmin narrowed the size of their rolls. It may not be as soft - but it is very strong - you can just "toughen up" if you want to try it.

[arcticpineapplecorp.]

Thought you should know:

Because Americans identify toilet paper as a necessity, it's a big business there. In the United States alone, people spend about $6 billion per year on this simple rolled paper [source: Harwell]. By some estimates, North Americans consume about 50 pounds (23 kilograms) of toilet paper per capita every single year. To make enough TP for the entire world, manufacturers blow through about 10 million trees annually [source: Worldwatch Institute]....

Americans use far more toilet paper than any other country, perhaps three times as much as their Western European counterparts. The Yanks like it softer too. Recycled toilet paper doesn't sell in the states like it does in Europe and Latin America [source: Goldenberg].

source: http://home.howstuffworks.com/toilet-paper.htm

http://www.stuffyoushouldknow.com/podca ... -paper.htm

be sure to see the wedding dresses made from toilet paper (link above). Who knew there was an annual toilet paper wedding dress fashion show?

Now come on and tell me that's NOT interesting!!

[ResearchMed]

I also noticed aluminum foil becoming thinner over the years, with the "heavy duty" label assigned to a thinner foil during a transition period. Candy bars have gotten smaller, ice cream containers too, and so on. Pretty sure it's just the way things go.

*Note: While toilet paper and aluminum foil are both useful items, they are not interchangeable!

Yeah, we know.
The Incredible Shrinking <whatever>.

My one pet peeve with that is when they keep the box looking larger, but the contents are smaller. That's just deceptive.
More of a big peeve (?) is when one large "Giant ECONOMY size" package of something (cereal, detergent) is more per ounce than getting two or more smaller, more convenient packages (especially if only one is really needed at a time).

But *changing* the product without even a "New [so-called] Improved!!!" alert...?
Nope.

Meanwhile, I also got a response to one of my anony-e-addresses from when I had first sent an online comment through the P&G website.
Whoa.
How insulting can they be!?
I got a nice lecture about how I need to look for the "blue" packaging that says "Charmin UltraSoft" (huh? that's what *I* wrote to complain about!) "so you can be sure you are getting the product you are used too!" [sic]
That "too" showed up more than once in the wrong place in the very long emailed excuse.
AND there were multiple assurances that I was "wrong" or "in error", etc. Thanks, P&G.
Good customer service psychology.

And yes, it would indeed be a complete riot IF this turned out to be "counterfeit TP"

Hmmm. Anyone want to join me in a new product launch?

I'm waiting to see if phone rep really does send a pre-paid mailer, and if so, what the final response is.

BTW, I always love it when there is a problem with a product, and the response is a version of "Well, no one else complained".
Duh, SOMEONE has to be first! And probably separately with each rep or department...
If the front line doesn't ever report it, guess what............

RM

[itstoomuch]

Be nice. Use it or go to another brand.
Our Bidets are warranted for 1 year.
Your TP is good for 1 use, and in your case, not even 1 use. Most of the usable area is wasted and performs no real function.
Every washlet bidet utilize 100% of the stream flow to do its design function.
Plus, in the PNW, we have generally have "soft" water. There is a noticeable difference
YBSMV

[itstoomuch]

FYI, Just how do you think we accumulated wealth.
hint: We avoid consumables in our daily lives but invest in companies that make consumables that people deem to be indispensable.
Robert Kiyosaki's concept of asssets vs asspensives

[arcticpineapplecorp.]

Be nice. Use it or go to another brand.
Our Bidets are warranted for 1 year.
Your TP is good for 1 use, and in your case, not even 1 use. Most of the usable area is wasted and performs no real function.
Every washlet bidet utilize 100% of the stream flow to do its design function.
Plus, in the PNW, we have generally have "soft" water. There is a noticeable difference
YBSMV

http://www.homedepot.com/b/Bath-Toilets ... 5yc1vZbza8

[student]

I don't know anything better than Charmin UltraSoft. I guess you can always "double" it up for a thicker feel.

When you next purchase a new supply, would you let me know if you notice a difference?
It would be nice if there was just a temporary quality control problem.
But I suspect that with the big promo about "6 rolls on one", the only way to do that is to make them all thinner.

It's sort of like DIet Coke for us. Not particularly price sensitive.
Also a situation of "Accept no substitutes!" (What product used that slogan decades ago?)

Thanks.

RM

I just looked as I have bought the new kind like yours. I don't see much of a difference just by looking.

Upon closer inspection, it is not as good.