Pull-ups and Push-ups

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GeraniumLover
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Re: Need to be able to do 30 chin-ups

Post by GeraniumLover »

Triple digit golfer wrote: Wed May 06, 2020 3:45 pm
Hockey10 wrote: Wed May 06, 2020 3:42 pm
Triple digit golfer wrote: Wed May 06, 2020 3:20 pm He seems to think it is impossible and only some freak of nature would be able to accomplish such a feat.
There is one freak of nature who I know can do this. Look up Zdeno Chara of the Boston Bruins. He weighs about 250 pounds and routinely does 30+ reps.
That guy is a flat out monster on the ice. I didn't know he does 30+ reps. At 250, that's absolutely insane. Usually it's the little guys. He's like 6'7" but it's still very impressive.
Chara is also 43 years old
stoptothink
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by stoptothink »

All the data that I've seen (ie. from military standards and national council on strength & fitness) suggests the "average" adult male can do a single pull-up and being able to do 15 puts you in ~95th percentile. Apparently, along with being financially successful, Bogleheads are also physical fitness beasts. Fitness was my career for a while and is still a major component of what I do for a living (but now primarily on the research side), but I don't normally come across many people who can do 30 legitimate pull/chin-ups in a single set that aren't pretty high level athletes. That is 99th+ percentile relative strength for an adult male. FWIW, no clue how many I can do because all of my pulling is heavy load/low rep.
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by LeftCoastIV »

I recently watched a Cross Fit documentary about one of their top-level competitions. Of course the athletes were in incredible shape, but the pull-up technique seemed ridiculous. Tons of swinging and momentum. I was surprised they weren't required to perform "full hang at the bottom" type pull ups. They are in better shape then me, though, so maybe I'm missing something...
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by 4nursebee »

Following.

I've got pushups nailed. Can't do any pull ups. Any pointers on how to start and build up? I've read just to hang, also to build up muscles flexing while hanging. I have a climbing harness with counter weights, gonna give those a try, but even with the counter weights can hardly pull up an inch.
Pale Blue Dot
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by stoptothink »

LeftCoastIV wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 3:58 pm I recently watched a Cross Fit documentary about one of their top-level competitions. Of course the athletes were in incredible shape, but the pull-up technique seemed ridiculous. Tons of swinging and momentum. I was surprised they weren't required to perform "full hang at the bottom" type pull ups. They are in better shape then me, though, so maybe I'm missing something...
"Kipping" is a fundamental movement in CrossFit. I personally, as a PhD exercise physiologist, have a zillion issues with kipping, but a kipping/butterfly pull-up is a totally different movement. It has more in common with olympic movements and is about transfer of power rather than strict pulling strength.
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Re: Need to be able to do 30 chin-ups

Post by LadyGeek »

4nursebee wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 4:37 pm Following.

I've got pushups nailed. Can't do any pull ups. Any pointers on how to start and build up? I've read just to hang, also to build up muscles flexing while hanging. I have a climbing harness with counter weights, gonna give those a try, but even with the counter weights can hardly pull up an inch.
From: Re: Need to be able to do 30 chin-ups
goblue100 wrote: Wed May 06, 2020 4:55 pm 18 is great. 30 would be even better.
http://www.50pullups.com/
Use the technique here: LESS THAN 4 PULLUPS
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LeftCoastIV
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by LeftCoastIV »

stoptothink wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 6:54 pm
LeftCoastIV wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 3:58 pm I recently watched a Cross Fit documentary about one of their top-level competitions. Of course the athletes were in incredible shape, but the pull-up technique seemed ridiculous. Tons of swinging and momentum. I was surprised they weren't required to perform "full hang at the bottom" type pull ups. They are in better shape then me, though, so maybe I'm missing something...
"Kipping" is a fundamental movement in CrossFit. I personally, as a PhD exercise physiologist, have a zillion issues with kipping, but a kipping/butterfly pull-up is a totally different movement. It has more in common with olympic movements and is about transfer of power rather than strict pulling strength.
Thanks for the insight. I did not know kipping existed. Still not sure what purpose it serves after reading about it a bit.
Loon11
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by Loon11 »

really miss the gym and hope they open soon. In the meantime, been doing HIT at home - pick some from Utube or LesMills - take the laptop out to the porch and do them simultaneously with the program - usually 25-30 min of intense exercise, alternate that with walking every other day. Most of these workouts include 20 seconds of things like burpees, squat jumps, plank jacks, lateral lunges, star jumps, regular push ups and hand release push ups, high knees, on and on, there are a million moves to combine.
Anyway, it makes me sweat and feel like I'm doing something to keep my 70 yr old body in shape. was doing a wt lifting class 3 x a week and hope that resumes - along with some swimming.
CFM300
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by CFM300 »

LeftCoastIV wrote: Sun May 10, 2020 7:12 pm I did not know kipping existed. Still not sure what purpose it serves after reading about it a bit.
This explains it: http://library.crossfit.com/free/pdf/32 ... Pullup.pdf
Compound
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by Compound »

4nursebee wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 4:37 pm Following.

I've got pushups nailed. Can't do any pull ups. Any pointers on how to start and build up? I've read just to hang, also to build up muscles flexing while hanging. I have a climbing harness with counter weights, gonna give those a try, but even with the counter weights can hardly pull up an inch.
I was previously pointed to this person’s YouTube channel by other Bogleheads. I found it really helpful and informative. His emphasis on form and progression resonated with me.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mRznU6pzez0&t=583s

I’ve been seeing results. When I first started working on this, around a year ago, I couldn’t do a single pull-up. I started working on the negative using a chin-up hand grip. Through steady work I’ve gotten to the point where I can now do several sets of five pull-ups.

Good luck with your journey!
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MNGopher
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by MNGopher »

I was always naturally very good at pullups as a kid, and could usually do double the number of anyone else in my PE class. It helped that I was a wrestler and light/lean for my age. I've been going to the gym and lifting weights for my entire adult life, but have only done the occasional set of pull-ups. Now that all the gyms are closed I have gotten back to doing body weight exercises. On my daily walk I usually go past a playground, and if there aren't a lot of kids around, I will do one set of pull-ups to failure. At first I could only do 10, but after almost 2 months of doing this I was pleasantly surprised that I could do a set of 20. I weigh 190 and turn 55 in a couple days.
Triple digit golfer
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by Triple digit golfer »

I did a midday workout today. I'm up to 20 chin-ups. Progressing nicely. Interestingly enough, in my three sets to failure, I was able to do less in my second and third sets and ended the workout at the same amount overall as when I was able to do 18 about a week ago. I'm not thinking much of it, as I know these things are not linear by any stretch. I am happy that my max set increased by 2.

I have honed in my diet further, still consuming 2,400 calories per day at 155 pounds, but adding 30-40 more grams of protein, or around 150 calories, and removing 150 calories of junk - typically my post-dinner Oreos that I eat with my daughter. :happy

At 2,400 calories per day average over the last six weeks, I've lost 2.5 pounds. So I anticipate I may be able to lose 2-3 more pounds. The increased protein should preserve muscle mass. A couple more pounds lost, increased protein, and training focused on chin-ups and I should be able to get there. I will adjust along the way if progress stalls.

Next workout will be Saturday or Sunday. My plan is Wednesday and Saturday/Sunday, just twice weekly, 3 sets to failure with 3 minutes between each.

I will begin adding weight on the second and third sets as well, but the first set will always be just body weight and therefore a true reflection of how I'd expect to perform in the "real" test where I will earn my easy $250 and bragging rights.
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by achillesheel »

Compound wrote: Sun May 10, 2020 9:23 pm
4nursebee wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 4:37 pm Following.

I've got pushups nailed. Can't do any pull ups. Any pointers on how to start and build up? I've read just to hang, also to build up muscles flexing while hanging. I have a climbing harness with counter weights, gonna give those a try, but even with the counter weights can hardly pull up an inch.
I was previously pointed to this person’s YouTube channel by other Bogleheads. I found it really helpful and informative. His emphasis on form and progression resonated with me.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mRznU6pzez0&t=583s

I’ve been seeing results. When I first started working on this, around a year ago, I couldn’t do a single pull-up. I started working on the negative using a chin-up hand grip. Through steady work I’ve gotten to the point where I can now do several sets of five pull-ups.

Good luck with your journey!
Terrific! Learning how to do those first two or three pullups is always the toughest part!
The unexamined life is not worth living.
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praxis
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by praxis »

4nursebee wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 4:37 pm Following.

I've got pushups nailed. Can't do any pull ups. Any pointers on how to start and build up? I've read just to hang, also to build up muscles flexing while hanging. I have a climbing harness with counter weights, gonna give those a try, but even with the counter weights can hardly pull up an inch.
A trick I learned from P90X is to place a chair in front of the bar and put one foot on the seat as you do a pull up. You are "spotting" yourself and can press lightly with your toe or put more pressure on depending on what you need and how many you want to do. Anyone can do spotted pull ups and you can slowly add weight to your arms as you get stronger.
Triple digit golfer
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by Triple digit golfer »

Triple digit golfer wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 1:21 pm I did a midday workout today. I'm up to 20 chin-ups. Progressing nicely. Interestingly enough, in my three sets to failure, I was able to do less in my second and third sets and ended the workout at the same amount overall as when I was able to do 18 about a week ago. I'm not thinking much of it, as I know these things are not linear by any stretch. I am happy that my max set increased by 2.

I have honed in my diet further, still consuming 2,400 calories per day at 155 pounds, but adding 30-40 more grams of protein, or around 150 calories, and removing 150 calories of junk - typically my post-dinner Oreos that I eat with my daughter. :happy

At 2,400 calories per day average over the last six weeks, I've lost 2.5 pounds. So I anticipate I may be able to lose 2-3 more pounds. The increased protein should preserve muscle mass. A couple more pounds lost, increased protein, and training focused on chin-ups and I should be able to get there. I will adjust along the way if progress stalls.

Next workout will be Saturday or Sunday. My plan is Wednesday and Saturday/Sunday, just twice weekly, 3 sets to failure with 3 minutes between each.

I will begin adding weight on the second and third sets as well, but the first set will always be just body weight and therefore a true reflection of how I'd expect to perform in the "real" test where I will earn my easy $250 and bragging rights.
Yesterday I did 4 sets of chin-ups, all to failure:

20 with no weight
9 with a 10lb weight
5 with a 25 lb weight
10 with no weight

I hesitated about trying the last set but felt I had a little more in the tank. Next workout will be Tues/Wed.
Caduceus
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by Caduceus »

Yes, I do only body weight exercises. I hope I'm not stirring up an hornet's nest here, but I have a theory (or perhaps it's a fear), that weightlifting might be unhealthy in the long run. I do hear stories of people having joint pains or suffering all sorts of problems that they attribute to weight lifting in their younger days. And I find myself wondering why we would push ourselves to do something so artificial - train particular muscle groups rather than holistic strength - when our bodies didn't evolve that way to do these things.

I find the muscles that people develop through natural activities (i.e. through the course of using their muscles to perform some task they actually need to do) to look better anyway than some of those oddly shaped bulging masses so common these days.
stoptothink
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by stoptothink »

Caduceus wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 1:17 pm Yes, I do only body weight exercises. I hope I'm not stirring up an hornet's nest here, but I have a theory (or perhaps it's a fear), that weightlifting might be unhealthy in the long run. I do hear stories of people having joint pains or suffering all sorts of problems that they attribute to weight lifting in their younger days. And I find myself wondering why we would push ourselves to do something so artificial - train particular muscle groups rather than holistic strength - when our bodies didn't evolve that way to do these things.

I find the muscles that people develop through natural activities (i.e. through the course of using their muscles to perform some task they actually need to do) to look better anyway than some of those oddly shaped bulging masses so common these days.
Deadlifting, squatting, pushing, pulling, weighted carries, etc. are "artificial movements"? There is a balance to everything. Yes, if you compete at a high level in powerlifting or strongman (or really any high level athletic endeavor) for a long period of time, ultimately your body will pay the price, but the few people I know who have been strength training for 50+ years are in FAR better health than their peers.
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by OhBoyUhoh »

Triple digit golfer wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 10:38 am
Triple digit golfer wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 1:21 pm I did a midday workout today. I'm up to 20 chin-ups. Progressing nicely. Interestingly enough, in my three sets to failure, I was able to do less in my second and third sets and ended the workout at the same amount overall as when I was able to do 18 about a week ago. I'm not thinking much of it, as I know these things are not linear by any stretch. I am happy that my max set increased by 2.

I have honed in my diet further, still consuming 2,400 calories per day at 155 pounds, but adding 30-40 more grams of protein, or around 150 calories, and removing 150 calories of junk - typically my post-dinner Oreos that I eat with my daughter. :happy

At 2,400 calories per day average over the last six weeks, I've lost 2.5 pounds. So I anticipate I may be able to lose 2-3 more pounds. The increased protein should preserve muscle mass. A couple more pounds lost, increased protein, and training focused on chin-ups and I should be able to get there. I will adjust along the way if progress stalls.

Next workout will be Saturday or Sunday. My plan is Wednesday and Saturday/Sunday, just twice weekly, 3 sets to failure with 3 minutes between each.

I will begin adding weight on the second and third sets as well, but the first set will always be just body weight and therefore a true reflection of how I'd expect to perform in the "real" test where I will earn my easy $250 and bragging rights.
Yesterday I did 4 sets of chin-ups, all to failure:

20 with no weight
9 with a 10lb weight
5 with a 25 lb weight
10 with no weight

I hesitated about trying the last set but felt I had a little more in the tank. Next workout will be Tues/Wed.
Keep it going, TDG!
I had money, I had none. I had money, I had none. But I never been so broke that I couldn't leave town. (Jim, Ray, Robby, John)
Triple digit golfer
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by Triple digit golfer »

stoptothink wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 1:35 pm
Caduceus wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 1:17 pm Yes, I do only body weight exercises. I hope I'm not stirring up an hornet's nest here, but I have a theory (or perhaps it's a fear), that weightlifting might be unhealthy in the long run. I do hear stories of people having joint pains or suffering all sorts of problems that they attribute to weight lifting in their younger days. And I find myself wondering why we would push ourselves to do something so artificial - train particular muscle groups rather than holistic strength - when our bodies didn't evolve that way to do these things.

I find the muscles that people develop through natural activities (i.e. through the course of using their muscles to perform some task they actually need to do) to look better anyway than some of those oddly shaped bulging masses so common these days.
Deadlifting, squatting, pushing, pulling, weighted carries, etc. are "artificial movements"? There is a balance to everything. Yes, if you compete at a high level in powerlifting or strongman (or really any high level athletic endeavor) for a long period of time, ultimately your body will pay the price, but the few people I know who have been strength training for 50+ years are in FAR better health than their peers.
The entire point of compound movements is that they are functional. They don't train particular muscle groups. They train all muscle groups. They mimic real life movements. Push open a door? Bench press. Pull a door open? Rows. Lifting a heavy object? Deadlift. Planting flowers or pulling weeds? Squat.

I don't disagree that weightlifters could experience joint pain later on, but to call compound movements "artificial" is incorrect.

Weightlifting, done properly, should not result in joint pain later on. I suspect that people who get joint pain are power lifters, strongman competitors, etc. A regular John Doe lifting weights moderately for good health with proper form will have more muscle mass, bone density, and functional strength than a non weight lifter.
alfaspider
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by alfaspider »

Caduceus wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 1:17 pm Yes, I do only body weight exercises. I hope I'm not stirring up an hornet's nest here, but I have a theory (or perhaps it's a fear), that weightlifting might be unhealthy in the long run. I do hear stories of people having joint pains or suffering all sorts of problems that they attribute to weight lifting in their younger days. And I find myself wondering why we would push ourselves to do something so artificial - train particular muscle groups rather than holistic strength - when our bodies didn't evolve that way to do these things.

I find the muscles that people develop through natural activities (i.e. through the course of using their muscles to perform some task they actually need to do) to look better anyway than some of those oddly shaped bulging masses so common these days.
Any athletic endeavor that involves pushing your body to the absolute limit can be harmful on the long run. It doesn't really matter whether that's a body weight exercise or a heavy weight exercise. The guys setting dead lift world records are probably taking years off their life in the pursuit, but those guys are subjecting themselves to training regimens that are only possible through chemical enhancement. You could also develop plenty of joint pain by seeking to set a crossfit games style bodyweight record. Running extreme ultra marathons probably isn't particularly healthy either.

But if someone is just lifting regularly as part of a normal fitness regime, paying attention to form, and not taking it to a crazy level, I see little reason to think that it will cause long term pain. The people you hear complain most about back/knee/rotator cuff pain are not weight lifters, but sedentary people. If you don't develop strength through training, you are more likely to injure yourself with irregular activity. For example, someone who deadlifts every week is far less likely to hurt their back helping a friend move furniture- their body is already trained to support heavy weight.

Barbell training is recommended because with correct form, you can very carefully adjust the load being placed on your body. There are no shock loads or unexpected forces (as are the case with team sports) that lead to injury. That being said, most of the abilities one develops with barbell training can be cultivated with body weight exercise. The bench press and push up are a very similar movements, for example. It's just that it can get difficult to progress with only body weight as you get stronger.

Finally, I'd point out that the "oddly shaped bulging masses" can really only be accomplished through an extreme amount of training, and usually some type of drug. Those guys you see on the covers of body building magazines are on ALL on steroids, HGH, and a host of other concoctions. No question that is not healthy (they are also extremely dehydrated for those photo shoots).
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by topper1296 »

I belong to Planet Fitness and have learned to embrace their workout videos on the PF app from home since the gym is shut down (Nike also has a good app). They have some videos with equipment, but I'm doing the body weight only routines for now (the only equipment you may want is a mat). One of my favorite things is there is variation in the exercises in the videos instead of doing the same thing over and over. I will probably incorporate some resistance bands in at some point but I feel like I'm still getting a good workout in without using weights. I may never go back to using weights after this experience of using body weight only that is enjoyable and challenging.
stoptothink
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by stoptothink »

alfaspider wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 2:22 pm
Finally, I'd point out that the "oddly shaped bulging masses" can really only be accomplished through an extreme amount of training, and usually some type of drug. Those guys you see on the covers of body building magazines are on ALL on steroids, HGH, and a host of other concoctions. No question that is not healthy (they are also extremely dehydrated for those photo shoots).
The average person has no idea what a bodybuilder or a high-level (non-body composition) athlete goes through to peak for that level of "performance". Building large amounts of lean muscle tissue is difficult and time-consuming, even with anabolics/HGH/SARMs (which a large portion of people at your neighborhood gym are on, not to mention every "fitness influencer" and person to grace the cover of a bodybuilding/fitness magazine in the last ~70yrs).
alfaspider
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by alfaspider »

stoptothink wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 3:01 pm
alfaspider wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 2:22 pm
Finally, I'd point out that the "oddly shaped bulging masses" can really only be accomplished through an extreme amount of training, and usually some type of drug. Those guys you see on the covers of body building magazines are on ALL on steroids, HGH, and a host of other concoctions. No question that is not healthy (they are also extremely dehydrated for those photo shoots).
The average person has no idea what a bodybuilder or a high-level (non-body composition) athlete goes through to peak for that level of "performance". Building large amounts of lean muscle tissue is difficult and time-consuming, even with anabolics/HGH/SARMs (which a large portion of people at your neighborhood gym are on, not to mention every "fitness influencer" and person to grace the cover of a bodybuilding/fitness magazine in the last ~70yrs).
And yet you constantly hear people saying that they avoid weights because they don't want to "bulk up."
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TxAg
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by TxAg »

stoptothink wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 3:01 pm
alfaspider wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 2:22 pm
Finally, I'd point out that the "oddly shaped bulging masses" can really only be accomplished through an extreme amount of training, and usually some type of drug. Those guys you see on the covers of body building magazines are on ALL on steroids, HGH, and a host of other concoctions. No question that is not healthy (they are also extremely dehydrated for those photo shoots).
The average person has no idea what a bodybuilder or a high-level (non-body composition) athlete goes through to peak for that level of "performance". Building large amounts of lean muscle tissue is difficult and time-consuming, even with anabolics/HGH/SARMs (which a large portion of people at your neighborhood gym are on, not to mention every "fitness influencer" and person to grace the cover of a bodybuilding/fitness magazine in the last ~70yrs).
Amen
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Enganerd
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by Enganerd »

stoptothink wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 1:35 pm
Caduceus wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 1:17 pm Yes, I do only body weight exercises. I hope I'm not stirring up an hornet's nest here, but I have a theory (or perhaps it's a fear), that weightlifting might be unhealthy in the long run. I do hear stories of people having joint pains or suffering all sorts of problems that they attribute to weight lifting in their younger days. And I find myself wondering why we would push ourselves to do something so artificial - train particular muscle groups rather than holistic strength - when our bodies didn't evolve that way to do these things.

I find the muscles that people develop through natural activities (i.e. through the course of using their muscles to perform some task they actually need to do) to look better anyway than some of those oddly shaped bulging masses so common these days.
Deadlifting, squatting, pushing, pulling, weighted carries, etc. are "artificial movements"? There is a balance to everything. Yes, if you compete at a high level in powerlifting or strongman (or really any high level athletic endeavor) for a long period of time, ultimately your body will pay the price, but the few people I know who have been strength training for 50+ years are in FAR better health than their peers.
Triple digit golfer wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 2:05 pm The entire point of compound movements is that they are functional. They don't train particular muscle groups. They train all muscle groups. They mimic real life movements. Push open a door? Bench press. Pull a door open? Rows. Lifting a heavy object? Deadlift. Planting flowers or pulling weeds? Squat.

I don't disagree that weightlifters could experience joint pain later on, but to call compound movements "artificial" is incorrect.

Weightlifting, done properly, should not result in joint pain later on. I suspect that people who get joint pain are power lifters, strongman competitors, etc. A regular John Doe lifting weights moderately for good health with proper form will have more muscle mass, bone density, and functional strength than a non weight lifter.
I agree that strength training with weighted functional lifts is clearly beneficial for every aspect of health and also mimics natural movements. However, I think I do agree a bit with with Caduceus's post regarding getting in many sets of heavy weighted lifts does feel artificial relative to the natural world. I also do not know if data exists to suggest vigorous strength training in one's early/mid life is beneficial for healthful longevity or not. I occasionally get a bit obsessive about my hobbies and I can become pretty focused on building muscle and strength. I justify this passion with well it's good for myself in the long run anyways. However, most of the research I have seen regarding muscle building and longevity lean on correlation of lower muscle mass and earlier deaths in the elderly. But I do not know if being strong fit early/midlife is obviously superior to simply being fit and active granted you remain active as long as you can as you age.

One could be Fight Club Pitt fit (well not quite as lean) with nutrition discipline, active hobbies, and body weight exercises and a few weighted sets a week. However to look more like a guy from 300 (well not as big, I suspect PEDs) one would have to have extreme focus/dedication to nutrition and weight training. Would the bigger guy (assuming no roids and proper form) see benefits as he ages? I have no idea, but he sure as hell is working a lot harder at both exercise and diet practices.
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by Triple digit golfer »

alfaspider wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 2:22 pm
Caduceus wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 1:17 pm Yes, I do only body weight exercises. I hope I'm not stirring up an hornet's nest here, but I have a theory (or perhaps it's a fear), that weightlifting might be unhealthy in the long run. I do hear stories of people having joint pains or suffering all sorts of problems that they attribute to weight lifting in their younger days. And I find myself wondering why we would push ourselves to do something so artificial - train particular muscle groups rather than holistic strength - when our bodies didn't evolve that way to do these things.

I find the muscles that people develop through natural activities (i.e. through the course of using their muscles to perform some task they actually need to do) to look better anyway than some of those oddly shaped bulging masses so common these days.
Any athletic endeavor that involves pushing your body to the absolute limit can be harmful on the long run. It doesn't really matter whether that's a body weight exercise or a heavy weight exercise. The guys setting dead lift world records are probably taking years off their life in the pursuit, but those guys are subjecting themselves to training regimens that are only possible through chemical enhancement. You could also develop plenty of joint pain by seeking to set a crossfit games style bodyweight record. Running extreme ultra marathons probably isn't particularly healthy either.

But if someone is just lifting regularly as part of a normal fitness regime, paying attention to form, and not taking it to a crazy level, I see little reason to think that it will cause long term pain. The people you hear complain most about back/knee/rotator cuff pain are not weight lifters, but sedentary people. If you don't develop strength through training, you are more likely to injure yourself with irregular activity. For example, someone who deadlifts every week is far less likely to hurt their back helping a friend move furniture- their body is already trained to support heavy weight.

Barbell training is recommended because with correct form, you can very carefully adjust the load being placed on your body. There are no shock loads or unexpected forces (as are the case with team sports) that lead to injury. That being said, most of the abilities one develops with barbell training can be cultivated with body weight exercise. The bench press and push up are a very similar movements, for example. It's just that it can get difficult to progress with only body weight as you get stronger.

Finally, I'd point out that the "oddly shaped bulging masses" can really only be accomplished through an extreme amount of training, and usually some type of drug. Those guys you see on the covers of body building magazines are on ALL on steroids, HGH, and a host of other concoctions. No question that is not healthy (they are also extremely dehydrated for those photo shoots).
Outstanding post.

Naturally, muscle can get bigger or smaller. That's it. It cannot change shape naturally. Weight lifting does not create large muscles. Eating does, along with a sufficient weight training routine. If you lift weights and eat at maintenance calories, you will not gain muscle (okay, a beginner will likely gain a little muscle and lose a little fat). Long-term, in order to gain any weight (muscle or fat) one must be in a caloric surplus.

Similarly, there is no such thing as lifting light weights to tone or heavy weights to bulk up. Muscle can get bigger or smaller. If a stimulus is placed on the muscle and sufficient calories and protein are consumed in excess of maintenance level calories, then the muscle will get larger. "Toning" is nothing more than more muscle, less fat, or a combination of the two.
alfaspider
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by alfaspider »

Enganerd wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 3:42 pm
stoptothink wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 1:35 pm
Caduceus wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 1:17 pm Yes, I do only body weight exercises. I hope I'm not stirring up an hornet's nest here, but I have a theory (or perhaps it's a fear), that weightlifting might be unhealthy in the long run. I do hear stories of people having joint pains or suffering all sorts of problems that they attribute to weight lifting in their younger days. And I find myself wondering why we would push ourselves to do something so artificial - train particular muscle groups rather than holistic strength - when our bodies didn't evolve that way to do these things.

I find the muscles that people develop through natural activities (i.e. through the course of using their muscles to perform some task they actually need to do) to look better anyway than some of those oddly shaped bulging masses so common these days.
Deadlifting, squatting, pushing, pulling, weighted carries, etc. are "artificial movements"? There is a balance to everything. Yes, if you compete at a high level in powerlifting or strongman (or really any high level athletic endeavor) for a long period of time, ultimately your body will pay the price, but the few people I know who have been strength training for 50+ years are in FAR better health than their peers.
Triple digit golfer wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 2:05 pm The entire point of compound movements is that they are functional. They don't train particular muscle groups. They train all muscle groups. They mimic real life movements. Push open a door? Bench press. Pull a door open? Rows. Lifting a heavy object? Deadlift. Planting flowers or pulling weeds? Squat.

I don't disagree that weightlifters could experience joint pain later on, but to call compound movements "artificial" is incorrect.

Weightlifting, done properly, should not result in joint pain later on. I suspect that people who get joint pain are power lifters, strongman competitors, etc. A regular John Doe lifting weights moderately for good health with proper form will have more muscle mass, bone density, and functional strength than a non weight lifter.
I agree that strength training with weighted functional lifts is clearly beneficial for every aspect of health and also mimics natural movements. However, I think I do agree a bit with with Caduceus's post regarding getting in many sets of heavy weighted lifts does feel artificial relative to the natural world. I also do not know if data exists to suggest vigorous strength training in one's early/mid life is beneficial for healthful longevity or not. I occasionally get a bit obsessive about my hobbies and I can become pretty focused on building muscle and strength. I justify this passion with well it's good for myself in the long run anyways. However, most of the research I have seen regarding muscle building and longevity lean on correlation of lower muscle mass and earlier deaths in the elderly. But I do not know if being strong fit early/midlife is obviously superior to simply being fit and active granted you remain active as long as you can as you age.

One could be Fight Club Pitt fit (well not quite as lean) with nutrition discipline, active hobbies, and body weight exercises and a few weighted sets a week. However to look more like a guy from 300 (well not as big, I suspect PEDs) one would have to have extreme focus/dedication to nutrition and weight training. Would the bigger guy (assuming no roids and proper form) see benefits as he ages? I have no idea, but he sure as hell is working a lot harder at both exercise and diet practices.
Even getting Brad Pitt fight club level would be pretty tough without some weights. Here's his training plan for fight club, if you believe this site:

https://www.highsnobiety.com/p/brad-pit ... b-workout/

Monday — Chest
Push-ups — Three sets of 25 reps
Bench press — 25, 15 and eight reps at 165, 195, 225 lbs
Nautilus press — 15 reps at 80, 100, 130 lbs
Incline press — 15 reps at 80, 100, 130 lbs
Pec deck — 15 reps at 60, 70, 80 lbs

Tuesday — Back
25 pull-ups — Three sets to fatigue
Seated rows — Three sets at 75, 80, 85 lbs
Lat pull downs — Three sets at 135, 150, 165 lbs
T-bar rows — Three sets at 80, 95, 110 lbs

Wednesday – Shoulders
Arnold press — Three sets at 55 lbs
Laterals — Three sets at 30 lbs
Front raises — Three sets at 25 lbs

Thursday – Biceps & Triceps
Preacher curls — Three sets at 60, 80, 95 lbs
EZ curls cable — Three sets at 50, 65, 80 lbs
Hammer curls — Three sets at 30, 45, 55 lbs
Push downs — Three sets at 70, 85, 100 lbs

Friday & Saturday – Cardio
Treadmill — one hour at 80-90 percent of maximum heart rate

Biggest takeaway is that he skipped leg day :shock:

Also, the claim on the linked site that he was at 5-6% bodyfat is bollocks. At 5-6%, you would be seeing veins popping out all over the place and very deep muscle striations. He was in the 10-15% range, which is more typical fitness model "beach body" type physique.
stoptothink
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by stoptothink »

Enganerd wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 3:42 pm
stoptothink wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 1:35 pm
Caduceus wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 1:17 pm Yes, I do only body weight exercises. I hope I'm not stirring up an hornet's nest here, but I have a theory (or perhaps it's a fear), that weightlifting might be unhealthy in the long run. I do hear stories of people having joint pains or suffering all sorts of problems that they attribute to weight lifting in their younger days. And I find myself wondering why we would push ourselves to do something so artificial - train particular muscle groups rather than holistic strength - when our bodies didn't evolve that way to do these things.

I find the muscles that people develop through natural activities (i.e. through the course of using their muscles to perform some task they actually need to do) to look better anyway than some of those oddly shaped bulging masses so common these days.
Deadlifting, squatting, pushing, pulling, weighted carries, etc. are "artificial movements"? There is a balance to everything. Yes, if you compete at a high level in powerlifting or strongman (or really any high level athletic endeavor) for a long period of time, ultimately your body will pay the price, but the few people I know who have been strength training for 50+ years are in FAR better health than their peers.
Triple digit golfer wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 2:05 pm The entire point of compound movements is that they are functional. They don't train particular muscle groups. They train all muscle groups. They mimic real life movements. Push open a door? Bench press. Pull a door open? Rows. Lifting a heavy object? Deadlift. Planting flowers or pulling weeds? Squat.

I don't disagree that weightlifters could experience joint pain later on, but to call compound movements "artificial" is incorrect.

Weightlifting, done properly, should not result in joint pain later on. I suspect that people who get joint pain are power lifters, strongman competitors, etc. A regular John Doe lifting weights moderately for good health with proper form will have more muscle mass, bone density, and functional strength than a non weight lifter.
I agree that strength training with weighted functional lifts is clearly beneficial for every aspect of health and also mimics natural movements. However, I think I do agree a bit with with Caduceus's post regarding getting in many sets of heavy weighted lifts does feel artificial relative to the natural world. I also do not know if data exists to suggest vigorous strength training in one's early/mid life is beneficial for healthful longevity or not. I occasionally get a bit obsessive about my hobbies and I can become pretty focused on building muscle and strength. I justify this passion with well it's good for myself in the long run anyways. However, most of the research I have seen regarding muscle building and longevity lean on correlation of lower muscle mass and earlier deaths in the elderly. But I do not know if being strong fit early/midlife is obviously superior to simply being fit and active granted you remain active as long as you can as you age.

One could be Fight Club Pitt fit (well not quite as lean) with nutrition discipline, active hobbies, and body weight exercises and a few weighted sets a week. However to look more like a guy from 300 (well not as big, I suspect PEDs) one would have to have extreme focus/dedication to nutrition and weight training. Would the bigger guy (assuming no roids and proper form) see benefits as he ages? I have no idea, but he sure as hell is working a lot harder at both exercise and diet practices.
Interestingly enough, I trained at Gym Jones, the facility in Murray, Utah where the likes of Mark Twight and Dan John trained the guys from 300. They were very lean, but they were not huge guys. It was not a bunch of 200lbs+ bodybuilders, it was a bunch of actors who lost a ton of weight. It is amazing what camera lighting can do.
livesoft
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by livesoft »

This thread has to go away because I made a vow that every time there is a new post to go do pull-ups to failure. It is getting tiring.
Wiki This signature message sponsored by sscritic: Learn to fish.
Enganerd
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by Enganerd »

alfaspider wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 4:27 pm
Even getting Brad Pitt fight club level would be pretty tough without some weights
I guess I was assuming starting from a base with considerable muscle mass. Say you played sports in high school and took strength training seriously all the way through your mid 20s. I think you could maintain his level of mass with an at home routine of pushups, pullups, squats etc. and maybe a weekly short trip to the gym.
alfaspider wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 4:27 pm
Biggest takeaway is that he skipped leg day :shock:
SMH :happy
stoptothink wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 4:45 pm
Interestingly enough, I trained at Gym Jones, the facility in Murray, Utah where the likes of Mark Twight and Dan John trained the guys from 300. They were very lean, but they were not huge guys. It was not a bunch of 200lbs+ bodybuilders, it was a bunch of actors who lost a ton of weight. It is amazing what camera lighting can do.
Really? That is crazy what editing can do, I remembered them being an impressive combo of size and definition (without looking bodybuilding weird). But 200 plus pounds and their muscle definition is pretty big anyways for guys of average height. Maybe I didn't pick my celebs very well but directionally I was trying to say one could be low fat and have muscle with a modest amount of effort or one could be low fat and considerable mass with a lot more effort. I feel one could keep body fat low and some muscle mass with weekday 30 min regime of body weight stuff and maybe a hour in the gym per week and maybe hiking and biking on the weekend. But to keep body fat low and to maintain or build high muscle mass you are looking at timing eating windows, tracking up amino acids, and lifting heavy for 10 hours or more a week.
Enganerd
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by Enganerd »

livesoft wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 4:48 pm This thread has to go away because I made a vow that every time there is a new post to go do pull-ups to failure. It is getting tiring.
Get another set in :sharebeer It's good for ya!
stoptothink
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by stoptothink »

Enganerd wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 5:05 pm
stoptothink wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 4:45 pm
Interestingly enough, I trained at Gym Jones, the facility in Murray, Utah where the likes of Mark Twight and Dan John trained the guys from 300. They were very lean, but they were not huge guys. It was not a bunch of 200lbs+ bodybuilders, it was a bunch of actors who lost a ton of weight. It is amazing what camera lighting can do.
Really? That is crazy what editing can do, I remembered them being an impressive combo of size and definition (without looking bodybuilding weird). But 200 plus pounds and their muscle definition is pretty big anyways for guys of average height. Maybe I didn't pick my celebs very well but directionally I was trying to say one could be low fat and have muscle with a modest amount of effort or one could be low fat and considerable mass with a lot more effort. I feel one could keep body fat low and some muscle mass with weekday 30 min regime of body weight stuff and maybe a hour in the gym per week and maybe hiking and biking on the weekend. But to keep body fat low and to maintain or build high muscle mass you are looking at timing eating windows, tracking up amino acids, and lifting heavy for 10 hours or more a week.
At the time I was transitioning from being a powerlifter to a triathlete after a torn bicep in a powerlifting comp. I began in the 190lbs. range (ultimately getting down to ~170 at my triathlon peak) at 6'1" and I was WAY bigger than almost all of those guys.
cableguy
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by cableguy »

I'm 52. I do: 4 sets of 8 pull ups. 4 sets of 8 dips. 4 sets of 20 sit ups. This little workout feels great and works when I only have 20-30 minutes. I need to get the pull and dip reps up to 10-12, and the sit ups up to 25-30.
Triple digit golfer
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by Triple digit golfer »

livesoft wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 4:48 pm This thread has to go away because I made a vow that every time there is a new post to go do pull-ups to failure. It is getting tiring.
Time for another set.
Enganerd
Posts: 299
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by Enganerd »

stoptothink wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 5:13 pm
Enganerd wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 5:05 pm
stoptothink wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 4:45 pm
Interestingly enough, I trained at Gym Jones, the facility in Murray, Utah where the likes of Mark Twight and Dan John trained the guys from 300. They were very lean, but they were not huge guys. It was not a bunch of 200lbs+ bodybuilders, it was a bunch of actors who lost a ton of weight. It is amazing what camera lighting can do.
Really? That is crazy what editing can do, I remembered them being an impressive combo of size and definition (without looking bodybuilding weird). But 200 plus pounds and their muscle definition is pretty big anyways for guys of average height. Maybe I didn't pick my celebs very well but directionally I was trying to say one could be low fat and have muscle with a modest amount of effort or one could be low fat and considerable mass with a lot more effort. I feel one could keep body fat low and some muscle mass with weekday 30 min regime of body weight stuff and maybe a hour in the gym per week and maybe hiking and biking on the weekend. But to keep body fat low and to maintain or build high muscle mass you are looking at timing eating windows, tracking up amino acids, and lifting heavy for 10 hours or more a week.
At the time I was transitioning from being a powerlifter to a triathlete after a torn bicep in a powerlifting comp. I began in the 190lbs. range (ultimately getting down to ~170 at my triathlon peak) at 6'1" and I was WAY bigger than almost all of those guys.
Looking at photos not all of the actors were as impressive as I remember, I saw it in college when it came out. 190 at 6'1" is pretty big but you are above average height as well. Anyways if you tore a bicep in a power lifting comp you are definitely in the group of those who in some extent devote a sizable portion of time/focus to strength training. Like 10s of hrs per week of dedicated training and devoting nutrition habits to promote maximizing results of training. My question is, and you are the perfect one to answer this, do you think this training increases your healthspan as opposed to a more relaxed regimen of quality at home body weight routine combined with active lifestyle with focus on eating healthy foods in proper amounts but not eating 4+ times a day with protein supplements and etc. I'm an interested in the question because I enjoy both lifestyles, but will admit the serious training and dedicated eating lifestyle takes a lot of time, energy and focus and I'm not sure it pays off in healthspan. Healthspan is a concept I heard from Peter Attia it is simply not just living longer but able to maintain mobility, strength for as long as possible.
Triple digit golfer wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 6:19 am
livesoft wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 4:48 pm This thread has to go away because I made a vow that every time there is a new post to go do pull-ups to failure. It is getting tiring.
Time for another set.
If we keep posting livesoft may have to change his name. As long as he has time to keep posting.
stoptothink
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by stoptothink »

Enganerd wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 9:01 am
stoptothink wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 5:13 pm
Enganerd wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 5:05 pm
stoptothink wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 4:45 pm
Interestingly enough, I trained at Gym Jones, the facility in Murray, Utah where the likes of Mark Twight and Dan John trained the guys from 300. They were very lean, but they were not huge guys. It was not a bunch of 200lbs+ bodybuilders, it was a bunch of actors who lost a ton of weight. It is amazing what camera lighting can do.
Really? That is crazy what editing can do, I remembered them being an impressive combo of size and definition (without looking bodybuilding weird). But 200 plus pounds and their muscle definition is pretty big anyways for guys of average height. Maybe I didn't pick my celebs very well but directionally I was trying to say one could be low fat and have muscle with a modest amount of effort or one could be low fat and considerable mass with a lot more effort. I feel one could keep body fat low and some muscle mass with weekday 30 min regime of body weight stuff and maybe a hour in the gym per week and maybe hiking and biking on the weekend. But to keep body fat low and to maintain or build high muscle mass you are looking at timing eating windows, tracking up amino acids, and lifting heavy for 10 hours or more a week.
At the time I was transitioning from being a powerlifter to a triathlete after a torn bicep in a powerlifting comp. I began in the 190lbs. range (ultimately getting down to ~170 at my triathlon peak) at 6'1" and I was WAY bigger than almost all of those guys.
Looking at photos not all of the actors were as impressive as I remember, I saw it in college when it came out. 190 at 6'1" is pretty big but you are above average height as well. Anyways if you tore a bicep in a power lifting comp you are definitely in the group of those who in some extent devote a sizable portion of time/focus to strength training. Like 10s of hrs per week of dedicated training and devoting nutrition habits to promote maximizing results of training. My question is, and you are the perfect one to answer this, do you think this training increases your healthspan as opposed to a more relaxed regimen of quality at home body weight routine combined with active lifestyle with focus on eating healthy foods in proper amounts but not eating 4+ times a day with protein supplements and etc. I'm an interested in the question because I enjoy both lifestyles, but will admit the serious training and dedicated eating lifestyle takes a lot of time, energy and focus and I'm not sure it pays off in healthspan. Healthspan is a concept I heard from Peter Attia it is simply not just living longer but able to maintain mobility, strength for as long as possible.
I don't think anybody can adequately answer your question, and it is dependent on so many distinct factors that the answer will be individual to each person.
Enganerd
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by Enganerd »

stoptothink wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 9:14 am I don't think anybody can adequately answer your question, and it is dependent on so many distinct factors that the answer will be individual to each person.
Granted. But we can know directionally that eating certain foods and maintaining lower levels of body fat tend to increase longevity for a vast majority. I guess a better question is whether justifying intense weight training with research indicating muscle mass is good for healthspan/lifespan is sound reflection on the data or not.
stoptothink
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by stoptothink »

Enganerd wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 11:05 am
stoptothink wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 9:14 am I don't think anybody can adequately answer your question, and it is dependent on so many distinct factors that the answer will be individual to each person.
Granted. But we can know directionally that eating certain foods and maintaining lower levels of body fat tend to increase longevity for a vast majority. I guess a better question is whether justifying intense weight training with research indicating muscle mass is good for healthspan/lifespan is sound reflection on the data or not.
I think we all can agree that long-term, very intense, physical activity can be very detrimental to your body (acutely and long-term). To be honest, I'm not sure what you are getting at. Maintaining muscle mass absolutely is good for lifespan, but there is a huge spectrum of "muscle mass". The muscle mass of a competitive bodybuilder; considering what it takes to get there, it's pretty clearly no. Someone who has consistently lifted for their entire life and carries ~20lbs. more of lean mass than someone who hasn't; yes.
BW1985
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by BW1985 »

Enganerd wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 11:05 am
stoptothink wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 9:14 am I don't think anybody can adequately answer your question, and it is dependent on so many distinct factors that the answer will be individual to each person.
Granted. But we can know directionally that eating certain foods and maintaining lower levels of body fat tend to increase longevity for a vast majority. I guess a better question is whether justifying intense weight training with research indicating muscle mass is good for healthspan/lifespan is sound reflection on the data or not.
We know exercise is good and I'm a proponent of doing the exercise you will stick with, whether that be weight training or anything else.
Chase the good life my whole life long, look back on my life and my life gone...where did I go wrong?
Enganerd
Posts: 299
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by Enganerd »

stoptothink wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 11:16 am I think we all can agree that long-term, very intense, physical activity can be very detrimental to your body (acutely and long-term). To be honest, I'm not sure what you are getting at. Maintaining muscle mass absolutely is good for lifespan, but there is a huge spectrum of "muscle mass". The muscle mass of a competitive bodybuilder; considering what it takes to get there, it's pretty clearly no. Someone who has consistently lifted for their entire life and carries ~20lbs. more of lean mass than someone who hasn't; yes.
Thanks for the answer, it sounds like IYO there is healthspan benefit to taking lifting fairly seriously as long as you use proper form, caution and common sense compared to maintaining some (significant compared to standard sedentary American) but obviously less strength/muscle with different exercise activities. Sorry to be confusing, I am not attempting to ask leading questions. It is just a interest of mine. I have periodically been fairly obsessive about intense training and nutrition and tended to think it is more than just a hobby to enjoy because it is productive to pursue health as intensely as possible. Reading the likes of Art De Vany and other nutrition/exercise content creators. But I usually had a sneaking suspicion that I was trying to make it out to be more than simply a hobby to enjoy.

Anyways back to the topic at hand. I love pull-ups and push ups. Tip to spice up pull ups is do an all negative day. Slowly and smoothly do about 5 reps (play around with decent rate to get to where you are spent after the 5th). The great thing about negatives is you can get reps in beyond failure. Once you cannot pull yourself up on that 5th rep hop up and try to slow the decent as much as possible again a few times.
Last edited by Enganerd on Tue May 19, 2020 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
CFM300
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by CFM300 »

Enganerd wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 5:05 pm
stoptothink wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 4:45 pm Interestingly enough, I trained at Gym Jones, the facility in Murray, Utah where the likes of Mark Twight and Dan John trained the guys from 300. They were very lean, but they were not huge guys. It was not a bunch of 200lbs+ bodybuilders, it was a bunch of actors who lost a ton of weight. It is amazing what camera lighting can do.
Really? That is crazy what editing can do, I remembered them being an impressive combo of size and definition (without looking bodybuilding weird).
...
Looking at photos not all of the actors were as impressive as I remember
There used to be an article on the Gym Jones website in which Twight outlined the training and diet for the actors in 300. I can't find it now, but here's a quote from elsewhere:

"The first misconception is that we used a bodybuilding-type program of progressive overload and over-feeding with the goal of making the guys look huge. We took the opposite route of calorie restriction to make them look like they lived off the land, in the wild, all sinewy and ripped. The diet was adequate to fuel effort and recovery, barely."

You can find interviews with Twight about 300 on YouTube.

Edited to add: I found a copy of the entire article pasted in a post on a forum I've never heard of. No idea if it's work/family safe.
Last edited by CFM300 on Tue May 19, 2020 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Enganerd
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by Enganerd »

CFM300 wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 11:56 am
Enganerd wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 5:05 pm
stoptothink wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 4:45 pm Interestingly enough, I trained at Gym Jones, the facility in Murray, Utah where the likes of Mark Twight and Dan John trained the guys from 300. They were very lean, but they were not huge guys. It was not a bunch of 200lbs+ bodybuilders, it was a bunch of actors who lost a ton of weight. It is amazing what camera lighting can do.
Really? That is crazy what editing can do, I remembered them being an impressive combo of size and definition (without looking bodybuilding weird).
...
Looking at photos not all of the actors were as impressive as I remember
There used to be an article on the Gym Jones website in which Twight outlined the training and diet for the actors in 300. I can't find it now, but here's a quote from elsewhere:

"The first misconception is that we used a bodybuilding-type program of progressive overload and over-feeding with the goal of making the guys look huge. We took the opposite route of calorie restriction to make them look like they lived off the land, in the wild, all sinewy and ripped. The diet was adequate to fuel effort and recovery, barely."

You can find interviews with Twight about 300 on YouTube.
I remember that. It spurred a transition of a lot of us gym rats in that day from body building to cross fit style exercises. IMO the verdict is already in that hardcore bodybuilding (and competitive power lifting for that matter) is not beneficial for health span. But what I was trying to determine that going from skinny strong to skinny and yoked is actually that much better for you. Obviously there is diminishing returns in almost everything but being lean, functional, and maintaining sizable mass takes much more dedication than just staying lean strong enough to rep out 20 to 25 pull ups and 50 pushups per set.
stoptothink
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by stoptothink »

Enganerd wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 12:03 pm
CFM300 wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 11:56 am
Enganerd wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 5:05 pm
stoptothink wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 4:45 pm Interestingly enough, I trained at Gym Jones, the facility in Murray, Utah where the likes of Mark Twight and Dan John trained the guys from 300. They were very lean, but they were not huge guys. It was not a bunch of 200lbs+ bodybuilders, it was a bunch of actors who lost a ton of weight. It is amazing what camera lighting can do.
Really? That is crazy what editing can do, I remembered them being an impressive combo of size and definition (without looking bodybuilding weird).
...
Looking at photos not all of the actors were as impressive as I remember
There used to be an article on the Gym Jones website in which Twight outlined the training and diet for the actors in 300. I can't find it now, but here's a quote from elsewhere:

"The first misconception is that we used a bodybuilding-type program of progressive overload and over-feeding with the goal of making the guys look huge. We took the opposite route of calorie restriction to make them look like they lived off the land, in the wild, all sinewy and ripped. The diet was adequate to fuel effort and recovery, barely."

You can find interviews with Twight about 300 on YouTube.
I remember that. It spurred a transition of a lot of us gym rats in that day from body building to cross fit style exercises. IMO the verdict is already in that hardcore bodybuilding (and competitive power lifting for that matter) is not beneficial for health span. But what I was trying to determine that going from skinny strong to skinny and yoked is actually that much better for you. Obviously there is diminishing returns in almost everything but being lean, functional, and maintaining sizable mass takes much more dedication than just staying lean strong enough to rep out 20 to 25 pull ups and 50 pushups per set.
To get to the point where increased muscle mass has a detrimental effect on health and lifespan takes a lot of time, focused and dedicated effort, and likely activities that we all know do not promote health. Nobody gets there by accident, just messing around with weights for a few weeks (or even few years).
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Jazztonight
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by Jazztonight »

OP Here.

A while back I decided that my day goes a little better if I do some kind of exercise each morning. So here's what I now do:

M,W,F - 20 sets of 5 pull-ups. I mix them up: wide grip, regular grip, narrow grip, chin-up, mixed grip. It takes me 30 minutes to do 100 pulls. I use the Tabata Timer, which works great for this sort of thing.

T,Th,Sat - 20 sets of 5 squats (or lunges) + 20 sets of 5 pushups. I set the timer for 20 or 25 minutes. Occasionally I'll do pushup burpees.

Sun - 20 sets of 5 hanging knee raises. This is a great abs exercise.

My cardio is walking, and I typically walk 50-60 minutes. I do this 1-4 times a week.

Whether you're 30 or over 70 (I'm currently 73), bodyweight exercises keep you in shape. You don't need a gym, and it's a very Boglehead type of thing.

Recently (before Covid-19 aborted the trip) I was on a cruise ship and used the fitness room all the time. As usual, the folks pumping iron and using the many machines often said to me, "I wish I could do pull-ups!" But the only other person doing them was a 43 year old woman who'd just recently started.

It takes around 5 or 6 months to be able to do pull-ups, starting from zero. Today is a good day to start.
Last edited by Jazztonight on Fri May 22, 2020 6:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"What does not destroy me, makes me stronger." Nietzsche
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VictoriaF
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by VictoriaF »

Jazztonight wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 12:31 pm It takes around 5 or 6 months to be able to do pull-ups, starting from zero. Today is a good day to start.
Thank you, Jazztonight, for the inspiration.

Victoria
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halfnine
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by halfnine »

I blew out my shoulder and am down to one arm. Not looking for any particular rehab advice for that shoulder. But, I am looking for advice on how to continue lifting at home sans one arm particularly from someone who may have experienced similar. For those that haven't, keep in mind that whatever setup that is required needs to be done one handed as well. Getting dressed alone one armed has provided some interesting challenges already.
CFM300
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by CFM300 »

halfnine wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 3:05 pm looking for advice on how to continue lifting at home sans one arm
I have no idea what your prior training background is, but I gotta think the answer in terms of tools is going to be dumbbells. I'd get two. One should be heavy, like a weight with which you can only get 5 or so strict one-arm overhead presses. The other would something that you can curl for around 8 reps. Let's say you get a 50# and 25#.

With those two weights you could do: one-arm snatches, swings, clean & press, rows, upright rows, and curls. You could also let one of the dumbbells hang in your good hand and do lunges or step-ups. You could rack the bell at your shoulder and do squats or thrusters. You may have to get creative with the sets and reps. Higher reps with the lighter bell, fewer with the heavier. But also maybe a mix, like: 3 x 5 presses with the heavier, followed by 2 x AMRAP with the lighter. Your goal is to outgrow the dumbbells.
Compound
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by Compound »

livesoft wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 4:48 pm This thread has to go away because I made a vow that every time there is a new post to go do pull-ups to failure. It is getting tiring.
I just did my sets of pull-ups for the day — tag you’re it! :mrgreen:
livesoft
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by livesoft »

Done.
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Compound
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by Compound »

livesoft wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 10:17 amDone.
:sharebeer
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