My New Car Buying Tips

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hudson
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by hudson »

I'm on my 5th Toyota since 2000. There's nothing to get fixed unless you count recalls.
On purchases 1-3, I don't remember pitches for extended warranties.
On purchase #4, I really got worn out by the sales pitch for an extended warranty. That won't happen again.
On purchase #5; there wasn't a finance person, and there wasn't a sales pitch at all....different dealership.
Finance folks are now salespeople.
I don't buy extended warranties for anything.
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LadyGeek
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by LadyGeek »

denovo wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 10:54 pm
LadyGeek wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 8:19 pm ...The dealers know everyone price shops and does business over the internet. He offered to give me internet pricing

=====================
Toyota Finance Services is offering $1,000 cash back if you finance with them. I'm paying cash, but didn't want to pass up $1,000.
Two questions.

1. What did the dealer define as internet pricing?

2. Was the 10% off sticker before or after the $1,000 for financing?
1. He didn't.
2. There was no 10% off sticker.

Bear in mind that I'm buying on impulse and could have probably done better if I had waited. I didn't want to wait.

======================================
I lifted my credit freeze today and the dealer was able to complete the paperwork. I took the paperwork as PDF files on a USB stick.

I also have the manufacturer's invoice sheet (what they put on the car window) and will review everything later.

Tip: It's simply not possible to get through to a person at Experian using their published phone numbers. I needed a person to change my incorrect credit freeze date done over the weekend. Google "(name of company) phone number live person": How to Talk to a Live Person in Experian Customer Service | Number for Live Person, then follow the instructions for the 3rd comment (800-493-1058).
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psteinx
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by psteinx »

LadyGeek:

I don't know all the details of your transaction, but it sounds like, at a minimum, you left yourself open for a subpar deal:

1) Bought a new car more or less on a whim, to replace 2012 that needed repairs, but was not necessarily end-of-life.

2) Insisted on a specific year and model of vehicle that's in short supply.

3) Assuming you got a good deal because the saleperson called it "internet price". That could be a good deal or a bad one.

4) Took Car Fax value for your trade. Again, is that good or bad? You didn't shop it.

5) Turned down some warranty add-ons, but accepted a $995 tire and wheel package. That sounds excessive to me. And in general, add-on warranty type stuff is usually going to be high margin for the dealer.

6) Didn't really cross-shop either models or dealers.

Maybe you got a pretty good deal - maybe pretty close to what a more hard-headed approach might have gotten you. But from your post, I'm a bit skeptical. I would encourage others to not be in such a rush for a major purchase, to at least consider how great the need is, and to generally do more research and cross shopping.
Bratbill
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by Bratbill »

Times they are a changin !
Walked into dealer today with all my internet research
Told salesman I wanted to test drive 2 different models and while I was gone he could discuss with lease manager, finance manager and sales manager as when I came back I’d be ready to deal and wasn’t going to spend all day at the dealership !!
Tested 2 cars , then salesman said thanks, anymore questions? Then says manager wasn’t in now and he would email me with his offer ???
THEN THEY LET ME LEAVE !!!!
I was shocked !
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LadyGeek
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by LadyGeek »

psteinx wrote: Mon Dec 23, 2019 5:28 pm LadyGeek:

I don't know all the details of your transaction, but it sounds like, at a minimum, you left yourself open for a subpar deal:

...Maybe you got a pretty good deal - maybe pretty close to what a more hard-headed approach might have gotten you. But from your post, I'm a bit skeptical. I would encourage others to not be in such a rush for a major purchase, to at least consider how great the need is, and to generally do more research and cross shopping.
I would agree. I researched thoroughly but failed to cross-shop. "Subpar" is being polite. I paid close to MSRP for a high demand car. Your points are below.

1.) Bought a new car more or less on a whim, to replace 2012 that needed repairs, but was not necessarily end-of-life.

In my mind, it was at end-of-life. Brakes not working correctly are a safety issue, as the rotor surfaces get glazed and the pads wear down. I simply did not want to let this drag on (pun intended).

2.) Insisted on a specific year and model of vehicle that's in short supply.

I wanted a specific year and model. Price is the penalty I paid for wanting it now. I've said many, many times that buyer's remorse can last a l-o-n-g time. Not getting what I want will have me second guessing the decision.

3.) Assuming you got a good deal because the saleperson called it "internet price". That could be a good deal or a bad one.

It's probably not a good deal.

4.) Took Car Fax value for your trade. Again, is that good or bad? You didn't shop it.

It's the dead center trade-in value for a car in good condition. So, it's fair.

5.) Turned down some warranty add-ons, but accepted a $995 tire and wheel package. That sounds excessive to me. And in general, add-on warranty type stuff is usually going to be high margin for the dealer.

Yes, but I have a history of wiping out two wheels with an earlier car (2005 or so, ran over some wood on the PA turnpike). It will pay for itself on the first busted wheel, maybe two tire replacements. For me, that's peace of mind.

6.) Didn't really cross-shop either models or dealers.

No, I did not.
==============================

I should point out that the price I paid was within budget and can pay cash.

Also, that I intentionally am using the word "want", not "need". I don't need a new car. I want one. I'm spending more now to get enjoyment out of a product now.

If I absolutely needed a car now (and didn't have the cash), I'd reduce my budget and change my target vehicle to what I can afford.
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hudson
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by hudson »

LadyGeek,
You did it your way; you got it done.
It's hard to get much of a lower price with a high demand vehicle.
You got rid of your undesirable old vehicle.
Anything that works is good technique!
hudson
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by hudson »

Bratbill,

You may have found one of the many good dealerships. I love it when they are straightforward and low key...no games! I've seen ugly dealerships change to good ones and the opposite...through the years. I know of 3 dealerships that have been consistently ugly. When I buy a new vehicle, I'll call them all anyway.
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by LadyGeek »

hudson wrote: Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:07 pm LadyGeek,
You did it your way; you got it done.
It's hard to get much of a lower price with a high demand vehicle.
You got rid of your undesirable old vehicle.
Anything that works is good technique!
Yes, thanks. That is exactly what I thought - the law of supply and demand holds true.

==================================
When I closed-out the paperwork today, the salesman sat in the car with me to review how the controls worked. After he went through the demo, he then stated that I was going to receive a very important email.

It was the expected customer satisfaction survey. If I didn't give a top rating, they'd get dinged for performance and it would affect the company reputation.

I told him not to worry, that I'd send anyone who wanted a Toyota to him directly. He mentioned that I would receive $50 for the referral, and then proceeded to beg me to give a top survey rating. Otherwise, it would cost him $50 and the finance manager would also get dinged. (Interesting... this is not an anonymous survey.)

He wanted to know that if there was anything he was doing wrong, he wanted me to tell him directly. So I did. I never saw a grown man about to cry, as I politely told him how I thought his sales pitches were somewhat insulting to an educated person.

His response - They are trained to pitch it that way, but he'll take my comments in stride and change his pitch. The finance manager is also trained to pitch things a certain way.

He then gave me an official Toyota knit hat for being a loyal customer (and has nothing to do with the survey...). With one more final plea to give a top survey rating, I shook his hand and went on my way.

I didn't have the heart to tell him that I never, ever answer email surveys.

Tip: Never trust surveys or online reviews.
Wiki To some, the glass is half full. To others, the glass is half empty. To an engineer, it's twice the size it needs to be.
Leesbro63
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by Leesbro63 »

LadyGeek wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 8:19 pm I read this thread with great interest last week, as I unexpectedly went into the hunt for a new car.

My 2012 Honda CR-V (105k miles) driver's side rear brake caliper decided to freeze (fail to open fully) and messed up the pads and rotors for the second time. I had them replaced earlier this year. Then, the front brake pads and rotors were replaced - thinking I would keep this car for a while. Nope. I had enough and was not about to put additional $$$ into a losing cause.

I wanted a 2020 Toyota RAV4 LE with AWD, not a 2019. A very high-demand car near the beginning of the model year means I have almost no room for negotiation. A search of the Toyota owners forums show this car is still commanding near MSRP pricing. I still wanted it.

I found 3 dealers within driving distance and was prepared to get quotes. Yesterday, I went to the closest dealer first. After the test drive, I sat down with the salesman and started the discussion. I really liked the car I drove. Zero miles, added packages, and in the color I wanted (ruby flare pearl "red", which is also extra cost). Buyers remorse can last a very long time.

The dealers know everyone price shops and does business over the internet. He offered to give me internet pricing and the Car Fax value for my trade. Sold.

Tip: If you don't have the emotional confidence to deal in-person with a salesman giving you a full-press sales pitch, find someone who can go with you.

For me, the fun was just starting. Hang on, please remove the $279 for the theft insurance. OK.

The salesman then goes into a rather entertaining pitch for paint and interior surface "protection" package. I thought he turned into an entertainer - he had a small teflon coated card and showed me how well it resisted stains. But wait, there's more. For today only, I can give you 5 years. Not 3 years, but 5 years for only $1495. Do you know how many extra days that is? (Yes, but I let him calculate that for me. Hilarious.)

He then pitched a tire and wheel protection package. Those RAV4 wheels are made from aluminum, they're fragile and could cost you $1600 to replace (I had to keep from laughing). For only $1495, you'll save the cost of the package the first time around. This got my attention, as it was unlimited replacement, no pro-rating, for tire and wheel damage. I've ruined wheels on potholes, and was thinking I might go for it. He also pitched that 92% of customers buy this package (the "herd mentality" pitch - go with the crowd).

So, I declined both packages. An instant "I'll give you the tire package for 5 years at $995." Can you go lower? No. OK, I'll take it.

I then got passed to the finance manager who had an even stronger pitch for the 60 month service plan (extended warranty). At 10% MSRP, I thought it was outrageous. She explained that electronics are very costly to replace, which would not be covered under the standard 3 yr/ 36 mo warranty. Electronics will fail within the first year. I declined.

I then proceeded to decline a prepaid maintenance plan and a few other packages. The force was strong. Once she saw I simply said "no" without wavering, she moved on to complete the paperwork.

=====================
Toyota Finance Services is offering $1,000 cash back if you finance with them. I'm paying cash, but didn't want to pass up $1,000. I setup part finance (minimal amount) and part cash to pay for the car. There's interest on the loan (to be paid off within a few months), but you're still far ahead of the game.

Tip: Be sure to unfreeze your credit report. I did it online, but entered the wrong date and can't correct it until Monday. So, the dealer is holding the paperwork until they can get the credit report.

The first rule of sales is to never let the customer leave without the car. I'm in possession of my new car with dealer tags (certain uses are allowed with dealer tags, I have a PA form and am I'm legal to drive). They're holding the paperwork until the credit report is straightened out.
It’s ok to buy a car quickly without hours of internet research and without grinding multiple dealers (and yourself) down to the bone. Sometimes you just decide you want a new car. Someone has what you want. Make your best deal, avoid obvious rip offs and move the metal. That’s the whole reason for being a Boglehead...to have money to do what you want to do. Enjoy your new ride, Ladygeek.
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LadyGeek
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by LadyGeek »

^^^ I couldn't have said it better myself. Thank you, I am indeed enjoying my new ride.

I just connected to Android Auto, which is new for the 2020 model year. 8-)
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hudson
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Toyota Customer Survey

Post by hudson »

LadyGeek wrote: Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:18 pm It was the expected customer satisfaction survey. If I didn't give a top rating, they'd get dinged for performance and it would affect the company reputation.
When I've decided on a dealer and vehicle, I usually tell the salesperson (over the phone...before I drive) that it looks like we have a deal, and I'm looking forward to maxing them out on the Toyota customer survey. Then I tell them what I expect when I come in to pick up the vehicle. I'll tell them that I want the vehicle to be in perfect condition, and I don't want to be at the dealership for long. I don't want to hear one word about extended warranties. I might also see if they'll throw in spare keys/remotes...or give them to me at a reduced price. I want to know before I drive if there's going to be any problems with my payment. Then if all of that is done, I take the time to deliver a maxed out survey.

It's been my experience that everything goes really well during vehicle pickup. Once I got a handful of keys/remotes. On my last purchase, I forgot to ask.
FinIndyGal
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by FinIndyGal »

Hudson,

I wanted to update you and everyone, as well as thank you again for all your helpful advice and feedback.

I finally got my 2020 RAV4 on Friday. I was happy because everything went smoothly at the dealership. I dealt with the GSM through this entire journey until he informed me that my vehicle was delivered. He then turned my deal over to a sales girl. She had the paperwork ready when I arrived to pick it up. I never ended up putting down a deposit, and I was relieved that they didn’t play any games with the price. I was actually pleasantly surprised that I paid $40 less than the GSM quoted me, and the finance guy also renewed my tag, which was going to expire soon. In fact, when I got home, my renewal for $37.00 was ironically in my mailbox. They let me put $2,500 on my credit card, and I wrote a check for the rest. I wasn’t able to convince them to give me a third smart key. I tried three times – first with the sales girl, then her Sales Manager and finally their finance guy. They all said those are around $400. Because of your experiences with dealers torturing you about extended warranties, I briefly mentioned to the Sales Manager before I went back with the finance guy that I had someone waiting so I didn’t want to waste time talking about those warranties. He nicely asked me to hear the guy out. The finance guy was very respectful of my wishes, and he probably spent less than a minute or two telling me about the different warranties. He then had me sign something indicating that I didn’t want any of them.

One thing that I’d definitely do differently if I have to go through this again is ask the dealer to email me all the paperwork that I had to sign so I can review everything in advance. I felt like I was signing documents without really taking the time to thoroughly read them, etc., because it’s a stressful situation. I realize dealers have their standard forms, but I’d still feel better if I had done that. I’m still beating myself up because it seems I paid too much in fees, but I feel better when I tell myself that you emphasized many times that you don’t care what’s in their OTD price. It bugs me that I see all these fees, like $899.95 for the predelivery service charge, $139.95 electronic registration filing fee and $193.35 for title, registration and license fees. If I would have looked at these closely in advance, I would have noticed that new or transfer wasn’t checked, which can make a huge difference in cost. The DMV said it’s $85.00 to transfer my tag and transfer the title of the RAV4 to me. A new tag is significantly more.

Once again, I appreciate all your advice. I now need to read all the manuals and learn how to use everything.
FinIndyGal
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by FinIndyGal »

LadyGeek wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 8:19 pm I read this thread with great interest last week, as I unexpectedly went into the hunt for a new car.

My 2012 Honda CR-V (105k miles) driver's side rear brake caliper decided to freeze (fail to open fully) and messed up the pads and rotors for the second time. I had them replaced earlier this year. Then, the front brake pads and rotors were replaced - thinking I would keep this car for a while. Nope. I had enough and was not about to put additional $$$ into a losing cause.

I wanted a 2020 Toyota RAV4 LE with AWD, not a 2019. A very high-demand car near the beginning of the model year means I have almost no room for negotiation. A search of the Toyota owners forums show this car is still commanding near MSRP pricing. I still wanted it.

I found 3 dealers within driving distance and was prepared to get quotes. Yesterday, I went to the closest dealer first. After the test drive, I sat down with the salesman and started the discussion. I really liked the car I drove. Zero miles, added packages, and in the color I wanted (ruby flare pearl "red", which is also extra cost). Buyers remorse can last a very long time.

The dealers know everyone price shops and does business over the internet. He offered to give me internet pricing and the Car Fax value for my trade. Sold.

Tip: If you don't have the emotional confidence to deal in-person with a salesman giving you a full-press sales pitch, find someone who can go with you.

For me, the fun was just starting. Hang on, please remove the $279 for the theft insurance. OK.

The salesman then goes into a rather entertaining pitch for paint and interior surface "protection" package. I thought he turned into an entertainer - he had a small teflon coated card and showed me how well it resisted stains. But wait, there's more. For today only, I can give you 5 years. Not 3 years, but 5 years for only $1495. Do you know how many extra days that is? (Yes, but I let him calculate that for me. Hilarious.)

He then pitched a tire and wheel protection package. Those RAV4 wheels are made from aluminum, they're fragile and could cost you $1600 to replace (I had to keep from laughing). For only $1495, you'll save the cost of the package the first time around. This got my attention, as it was unlimited replacement, no pro-rating, for tire and wheel damage. I've ruined wheels on potholes, and was thinking I might go for it. He also pitched that 92% of customers buy this package (the "herd mentality" pitch - go with the crowd).

So, I declined both packages. An instant "I'll give you the tire package for 5 years at $995." Can you go lower? No. OK, I'll take it.

I then got passed to the finance manager who had an even stronger pitch for the 60 month service plan (extended warranty). At 10% MSRP, I thought it was outrageous. She explained that electronics are very costly to replace, which would not be covered under the standard 3 yr/ 36 mo warranty. Electronics will fail within the first year. I declined.

I then proceeded to decline a prepaid maintenance plan and a few other packages. The force was strong. Once she saw I simply said "no" without wavering, she moved on to complete the paperwork.

=====================
Toyota Finance Services is offering $1,000 cash back if you finance with them. I'm paying cash, but didn't want to pass up $1,000. I setup part finance (minimal amount) and part cash to pay for the car. There's interest on the loan (to be paid off within a few months), but you're still far ahead of the game.

Tip: Be sure to unfreeze your credit report. I did it online, but entered the wrong date and can't correct it until Monday. So, the dealer is holding the paperwork until they can get the credit report.

The first rule of sales is to never let the customer leave without the car. I'm in possession of my new car with dealer tags (certain uses are allowed with dealer tags, I have a PA form and am I'm legal to drive). They're holding the paperwork until the credit report is straightened out.
LadyGeek,

My 1999 BMW died because it needed a sensor, but I didn’t want to put any more money into it since it’s 20-years old. I really needed a new vehicle, too. After doing a ridiculous amount of research, I finally decided to get a 2020 RAV4 XLE Premium. Every dealer in my large metro wanted to sell me what they wanted me to buy (meaning what’s on their lot) versus what I wanted to buy. They all had what I didn’t want like premium colors or other color combos and thousands of dollars in packages and accessories added. They refused to get me what I wanted – a Super White exterior and nutmeg interior with no add-ons. You’d think I was asking for a pot of gold. I’m sure they thought that I’d eventually cave even though they didn’t know I was desperate for another vehicle. It was amazing how they continued to send me price quotes for what they had on their lots regardless of how many times I told them that’s not what I wanted. The dealer I purchased from was the only one willing to get the exact vehicle I requested, and he was in the next county over about 20 miles away. He was able to intercept and allocate my new RAV4 to his dealership and trade one of his allocations with another dealer. He caught it in time before it arrived at the port, and he was able to remove the add-ons that were scheduled by SET Distributors and instead add on only all weather floor mats and the cargo mat that he was throwing into my deal. My RAV4 then came straight from the port to him, and it had three miles on it when I picked it up on Friday.

I don’t know how I did it, but I managed to hold out until I could get what would make me happy (i.e., not spending thousands of dollars for add-ons that I didn’t want). It took forever, but it pays to be very stubborn and patient and not play into their silly games of trying to increase the price by adding a bunch of expensive options. I negotiated only via email with the General Sales Manager, and I never spoke to him until I was ready to do the deal. I paid 12.48% off MSRP. I also paid $5k less OTD for my 2020 than my neighbor’s friend who bought a 2019 RAV4 XLE Premium just a few months before the 2020’s came out. I’m sure this is because she has paint protection and everything else under the sun that was added on, which I refused to do. On the other hand, it would have been a lot less stressful if I had done this more quickly like you did. There’s a lot of value to that, too, including saving years on my life by not enduring all the stress.
hudson
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by hudson »

FinIndyGal,
Great job! I don't care about the fees at all because I've got the OTD price. You found a good dealer.
In the old days, I tried to get them to drop fees or extra stuff and never had any luck.
I'd listen to the sales pitch on the extended warranties if it was 3 minutes with no hard sell.
I know for sure that everybody has to pay the delivery fee. That's what it costs to get the car to the dealer.
You gave the keys a shot; it never hurts to ask. The new fangled keys/remotes are high priced and take some time to setup.
James Bragg is probably going to try to hire you!
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JAZZISCOOL
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by JAZZISCOOL »

FinIndyGal wrote: Wed Dec 25, 2019 2:22 pm
LadyGeek wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 8:19 pm I read this thread with great interest last week, as I unexpectedly went into the hunt for a new car.

My 2012 Honda CR-V (105k miles) driver's side rear brake caliper decided to freeze (fail to open fully) and messed up the pads and rotors for the second time. I had them replaced earlier this year. Then, the front brake pads and rotors were replaced - thinking I would keep this car for a while. Nope. I had enough and was not about to put additional $$$ into a losing cause.

I wanted a 2020 Toyota RAV4 LE with AWD, not a 2019. A very high-demand car near the beginning of the model year means I have almost no room for negotiation. A search of the Toyota owners forums show this car is still commanding near MSRP pricing. I still wanted it.

I found 3 dealers within driving distance and was prepared to get quotes. Yesterday, I went to the closest dealer first. After the test drive, I sat down with the salesman and started the discussion. I really liked the car I drove. Zero miles, added packages, and in the color I wanted (ruby flare pearl "red", which is also extra cost). Buyers remorse can last a very long time.

The dealers know everyone price shops and does business over the internet. He offered to give me internet pricing and the Car Fax value for my trade. Sold.

Tip: If you don't have the emotional confidence to deal in-person with a salesman giving you a full-press sales pitch, find someone who can go with you.

For me, the fun was just starting. Hang on, please remove the $279 for the theft insurance. OK.

The salesman then goes into a rather entertaining pitch for paint and interior surface "protection" package. I thought he turned into an entertainer - he had a small teflon coated card and showed me how well it resisted stains. But wait, there's more. For today only, I can give you 5 years. Not 3 years, but 5 years for only $1495. Do you know how many extra days that is? (Yes, but I let him calculate that for me. Hilarious.)

He then pitched a tire and wheel protection package. Those RAV4 wheels are made from aluminum, they're fragile and could cost you $1600 to replace (I had to keep from laughing). For only $1495, you'll save the cost of the package the first time around. This got my attention, as it was unlimited replacement, no pro-rating, for tire and wheel damage. I've ruined wheels on potholes, and was thinking I might go for it. He also pitched that 92% of customers buy this package (the "herd mentality" pitch - go with the crowd).

So, I declined both packages. An instant "I'll give you the tire package for 5 years at $995." Can you go lower? No. OK, I'll take it.

I then got passed to the finance manager who had an even stronger pitch for the 60 month service plan (extended warranty). At 10% MSRP, I thought it was outrageous. She explained that electronics are very costly to replace, which would not be covered under the standard 3 yr/ 36 mo warranty. Electronics will fail within the first year. I declined.

I then proceeded to decline a prepaid maintenance plan and a few other packages. The force was strong. Once she saw I simply said "no" without wavering, she moved on to complete the paperwork.

=====================
Toyota Finance Services is offering $1,000 cash back if you finance with them. I'm paying cash, but didn't want to pass up $1,000. I setup part finance (minimal amount) and part cash to pay for the car. There's interest on the loan (to be paid off within a few months), but you're still far ahead of the game.

Tip: Be sure to unfreeze your credit report. I did it online, but entered the wrong date and can't correct it until Monday. So, the dealer is holding the paperwork until they can get the credit report.

The first rule of sales is to never let the customer leave without the car. I'm in possession of my new car with dealer tags (certain uses are allowed with dealer tags, I have a PA form and am I'm legal to drive). They're holding the paperwork until the credit report is straightened out.
LadyGeek,

My 1999 BMW died because it needed a sensor, but I didn’t want to put any more money into it since it’s 20-years old. I really needed a new vehicle, too. After doing a ridiculous amount of research, I finally decided to get a 2020 RAV4 XLE Premium. Every dealer in my large metro wanted to sell me what they wanted me to buy (meaning what’s on their lot) versus what I wanted to buy. They all had what I didn’t want like premium colors or other color combos and thousands of dollars in packages and accessories added. They refused to get me what I wanted – a Super White exterior and nutmeg interior with no add-ons. You’d think I was asking for a pot of gold. I’m sure they thought that I’d eventually cave even though they didn’t know I was desperate for another vehicle. It was amazing how they continued to send me price quotes for what they had on their lots regardless of how many times I told them that’s not what I wanted. The dealer I purchased from was the only one willing to get the exact vehicle I requested, and he was in the next county over about 20 miles away. He was able to intercept and allocate my new RAV4 to his dealership and trade one of his allocations with another dealer. He caught it in time before it arrived at the port, and he was able to remove the add-ons that were scheduled by SET Distributors and instead add on only all weather floor mats and the cargo mat that he was throwing into my deal. My RAV4 then came straight from the port to him, and it had three miles on it when I picked it up on Friday.

I don’t know how I did it, but I managed to hold out until I could get what would make me happy (i.e., not spending thousands of dollars for add-ons that I didn’t want). It took forever, but it pays to be very stubborn and patient and not play into their silly games of trying to increase the price by adding a bunch of expensive options. I negotiated only via email with the General Sales Manager, and I never spoke to him until I was ready to do the deal. I paid 12.48% off MSRP. I also paid $5k less OTD for my 2020 than my neighbor’s friend who bought a 2019 RAV4 XLE Premium just a few months before the 2020’s came out. I’m sure this is because she has paint protection and everything else under the sun that was added on, which I refused to do. On the other hand, it would have been a lot less stressful if I had done this more quickly like you did. There’s a lot of value to that, too, including saving years on my life by not enduring all the stress.
Kudos! Yes, it does pay to be patient! :happy
FinIndyGal
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by FinIndyGal »

Thanks, Hudson and Jazziscool.

BTW-it's my understanding the delivery fee is even higher in Florida than other states. :x
hudson
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by hudson »

FinIndyGal wrote: Wed Dec 25, 2019 4:21 pm Thanks, Hudson and Jazziscool.

BTW-it's my understanding the delivery fee is even higher in Florida than other states. :x
I bought a 4Runner in 2018 (EDIT 2009) in NC...the "Delivery, Processing, Handling fee" on the Mulroney sticker was $995. It came from Tahara, Aichi, Japan....probably through Charleston, SC. That seems to be a fair delivery price. I'd be surprised if anyone negotiates that away.
Last edited by hudson on Thu Jan 02, 2020 7:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
SlowMovingInvestor
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by SlowMovingInvestor »

LadyGeek wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 8:19 pm
I then got passed to the finance manager who had an even stronger pitch for the 60 month service plan (extended warranty). At 10% MSRP, I thought it was outrageous. She explained that electronics are very costly to replace, which would not be covered under the standard 3 yr/ 36 mo warranty. Electronics will fail within the first year. I declined.
Is this really correct (that electronics aren't covered under the standard warranty) ? Obviously they wouldn't be covered after the warranty period is over, but I would think they would be covered within the regular warranty period.
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by LadyGeek »

FinIndyGal wrote: Wed Dec 25, 2019 2:22 pm LadyGeek,

My 1999 BMW died because it needed a sensor, but I didn’t want to put any more money into it since it’s 20-years old. I really needed a new vehicle, too. After doing a ridiculous amount of research, I finally decided to get a 2020 RAV4 XLE Premium. Every dealer in my large metro wanted to sell me what they wanted me to buy (meaning what’s on their lot) versus what I wanted to buy. They all had what I didn’t want like premium colors or other color combos and thousands of dollars in packages and accessories added. They refused to get me what I wanted – a Super White exterior and nutmeg interior with no add-ons. You’d think I was asking for a pot of gold. I’m sure they thought that I’d eventually cave even though they didn’t know I was desperate for another vehicle. It was amazing how they continued to send me price quotes for what they had on their lots regardless of how many times I told them that’s not what I wanted. The dealer I purchased from was the only one willing to get the exact vehicle I requested, and he was in the next county over about 20 miles away. He was able to intercept and allocate my new RAV4 to his dealership and trade one of his allocations with another dealer. He caught it in time before it arrived at the port, and he was able to remove the add-ons that were scheduled by SET Distributors and instead add on only all weather floor mats and the cargo mat that he was throwing into my deal. My RAV4 then came straight from the port to him, and it had three miles on it when I picked it up on Friday.

I don’t know how I did it, but I managed to hold out until I could get what would make me happy (i.e., not spending thousands of dollars for add-ons that I didn’t want). It took forever, but it pays to be very stubborn and patient and not play into their silly games of trying to increase the price by adding a bunch of expensive options. I negotiated only via email with the General Sales Manager, and I never spoke to him until I was ready to do the deal. I paid 12.48% off MSRP. I also paid $5k less OTD for my 2020 than my neighbor’s friend who bought a 2019 RAV4 XLE Premium just a few months before the 2020’s came out. I’m sure this is because she has paint protection and everything else under the sun that was added on, which I refused to do. On the other hand, it would have been a lot less stressful if I had done this more quickly like you did. There’s a lot of value to that, too, including saving years on my life by not enduring all the stress.
FinIndyGal,

Stress was indeed a factor in my decision to make an immediate purchase. If it's within budget, I value my time and stress level as well as the product's price. To be clear, the stress is from my current situation (want to dump the 2012 Honda CR-V and clear my plate) - there is zero, zip, nada stress from the sales process.

I didn't mention this earlier, but my added packages bring my 2020 RAV4 LE up to nearly a RAV4 XLE (not the Premium XLE). I've got:

- Blind Spot Monitor (BSM) with Rear Cross-Traffic Alert (RCTA) - $590 MSRP
- Rear Cargo Area Cover - $90 MSRP
- All weather floor liners and cargo liner - $269 MSRP
- Door edge Guard - $140 MSRP
- Mudguard - $129 MSRP

I also paid extra for the color (Ruby Flare Pearl).

My 2020 RAV4 is AWD (All Wheel Drive). Based on my experience with my 2012 CR-V (on-demand AWD), I appreciated the times it kicked in to remind me that my driving style needed to adapt to the road conditions. This is a safety issue, so I never considered the front-wheel drive only models.

Tip: Be sure to consider the cost of insurance on your new purchase. My 6 month premium increased $140 - from a 2012 Honda CR-V with 105k miles to a brand new 2020 RAV4 with 0 miles. Call your insurance company before you make your purchase to get a quote - they'll need a VIN. If it's not the exact car, the VIN from a similar car is fine. Did I do this for the RAV4? No...
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by LadyGeek »

SlowMovingInvestor wrote: Wed Dec 25, 2019 4:50 pm
LadyGeek wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 8:19 pm
I then got passed to the finance manager who had an even stronger pitch for the 60 month service plan (extended warranty). At 10% MSRP, I thought it was outrageous. She explained that electronics are very costly to replace, which would not be covered under the standard 3 yr/ 36 mo warranty. Electronics will fail within the first year. I declined.
Is this really correct (that electronics aren't covered under the standard warranty) ? Obviously they wouldn't be covered after the warranty period is over, but I would think they would be covered within the regular warranty period.
Sorry, my mistake. Electronics are fully covered under the standard warranty (3 yr / 36 mo), but not after that.

I have corrected my post, thanks.
Wiki To some, the glass is half full. To others, the glass is half empty. To an engineer, it's twice the size it needs to be.
FinIndyGal
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by FinIndyGal »

hudson wrote: Wed Dec 25, 2019 4:29 pm
FinIndyGal wrote: Wed Dec 25, 2019 4:21 pm Thanks, Hudson and Jazziscool.

BTW-it's my understanding the delivery fee is even higher in Florida than other states. :x
I bought a 4Runner in 2018 in NC...the "Delivery, Processing, Handling fee" on the Mulroney sticker was $995. It came from Tahara, Aichi, Japan....probably through Charleston, SC. That seems to be a fair delivery price. I'd be surprised if anyone negotiates that away.
Thanks for pointing this out because it made me realize I need to clarify. Actually, the "Delivery, Processing and Handling Fee" on my sticker is $1,060, which is included in the MSRP. It came from Obu, Aichi, Japan and apparently came to the Jacksonville, FL port. What I was referring to earlier is on the purchase information paperwork, which has the total OTD price that I paid. This includes a "Predelivery Service Charge" of $899.95 and an "Electronic Registration Filing Fee" of $139.85. In that box it says "These charges represent costs and profit to the dealer for items such as inspecting, cleaning, and adjusting vehicles, and preparing documents related to the sale." There are some other fees, including for title and registration. When I start beating myself up about those predelivery and electronic fees, I remind myself that Hudson only cares about the OTD price. :P
FinIndyGal
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by FinIndyGal »

LadyGeek wrote: Wed Dec 25, 2019 5:17 pm
FinIndyGal wrote: Wed Dec 25, 2019 2:22 pm LadyGeek,

My 1999 BMW died because it needed a sensor, but I didn’t want to put any more money into it since it’s 20-years old. I really needed a new vehicle, too. After doing a ridiculous amount of research, I finally decided to get a 2020 RAV4 XLE Premium. Every dealer in my large metro wanted to sell me what they wanted me to buy (meaning what’s on their lot) versus what I wanted to buy. They all had what I didn’t want like premium colors or other color combos and thousands of dollars in packages and accessories added. They refused to get me what I wanted – a Super White exterior and nutmeg interior with no add-ons. You’d think I was asking for a pot of gold. I’m sure they thought that I’d eventually cave even though they didn’t know I was desperate for another vehicle. It was amazing how they continued to send me price quotes for what they had on their lots regardless of how many times I told them that’s not what I wanted. The dealer I purchased from was the only one willing to get the exact vehicle I requested, and he was in the next county over about 20 miles away. He was able to intercept and allocate my new RAV4 to his dealership and trade one of his allocations with another dealer. He caught it in time before it arrived at the port, and he was able to remove the add-ons that were scheduled by SET Distributors and instead add on only all weather floor mats and the cargo mat that he was throwing into my deal. My RAV4 then came straight from the port to him, and it had three miles on it when I picked it up on Friday.

I don’t know how I did it, but I managed to hold out until I could get what would make me happy (i.e., not spending thousands of dollars for add-ons that I didn’t want). It took forever, but it pays to be very stubborn and patient and not play into their silly games of trying to increase the price by adding a bunch of expensive options. I negotiated only via email with the General Sales Manager, and I never spoke to him until I was ready to do the deal. I paid 12.48% off MSRP. I also paid $5k less OTD for my 2020 than my neighbor’s friend who bought a 2019 RAV4 XLE Premium just a few months before the 2020’s came out. I’m sure this is because she has paint protection and everything else under the sun that was added on, which I refused to do. On the other hand, it would have been a lot less stressful if I had done this more quickly like you did. There’s a lot of value to that, too, including saving years on my life by not enduring all the stress.
FinIndyGal,

Stress was indeed a factor in my decision to make an immediate purchase. If it's within budget, I value my time and stress level as well as the product's price. To be clear, the stress is from my current situation (want to dump the 2012 Honda CR-V and clear my plate) - there is zero, zip, nada stress from the sales process.

I didn't mention this earlier, but my added packages bring my 2020 RAV4 LE up to nearly a RAV4 XLE (not the Premium XLE). I've got:

- Blind Spot Monitor (BSM) with Rear Cross-Traffic Alert (RCTA) - $590 MSRP
- Rear Cargo Area Cover - $90 MSRP
- All weather floor liners and cargo liner - $269 MSRP
- Door edge Guard - $140 MSRP
- Mudguard - $129 MSRP

I also paid extra for the color (Ruby Flare Pearl).

My 2020 RAV4 is AWD (All Wheel Drive). Based on my experience with my 2012 CR-V (on-demand AWD), I appreciated the times it kicked in to remind me that my driving style needed to adapt to the road conditions. This is a safety issue, so I never considered the front-wheel drive only models.

Tip: Be sure to consider the cost of insurance on your new purchase. My 6 month premium increased $140 - from a 2012 Honda CR-V with 105k miles to a brand new 2020 RAV4 with 0 miles. Call your insurance company before you make your purchase to get a quote - they'll need a VIN. If it's not the exact car, the VIN from a similar car is fine. Did I do this for the RAV4? No...
LadyGeek,

It's interesting that the all weather floor mats with all weather cargo mat on my sticker has an MSRP of $409.00, but my dealer gave them to me at no charge anyway. I assume yours is cheaper because Southeast Toyota Distributor added mine on at the port, and I guess they charge more. They seem to rule everything down here.

I'm glad I don't need AWD since I'm in Florida. I understand that's a lot of extra money, too.

I did call my insurance agent before I purchased. At the time, I was still trying to decide between a 2020 Camry XLE and the RAV4. Believe it or not, the RAV4 was $50 cheaper the first year. I read an article that Camry's are one of the top ten stolen cars so I assume that's the reason. This is one of the reasons I decided to get the RAV4.
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by hudson »

FinIndyGal wrote: Wed Dec 25, 2019 6:45 pm This includes a "Predelivery Service Charge" of $899.95 and an "Electronic Registration Filing Fee" of $139.85. In that box it says "These charges represent costs and profit to the dealer for items such as inspecting, cleaning, and adjusting vehicles, and preparing documents related to the sale." There are some other fees, including for title and registration. When I start beating myself up about those predelivery and electronic fees, I remind myself that Hudson only cares about the OTD price. :P
Thanks!
I may have already said that I never got anywhere trying to focus on the line items on the quote.
I just want the best available out the door price that I can get. The dealer can change the OTD price; those other prices are usually non-negotiable. I know that I'm not going to beat a dealer out of his/her profit. I just don't want to be taken for a ride.
BanditKing
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by BanditKing »

Here's another reference for when discussing a high-demand vehicle.

I am very interested in the 2020 Highlander Hybrid, Platinum with pretty much all the bells and a few whistles too. The gas version is just getting on the lots now, and the hybrid is a few months out (March or so). On a whim, I went to my local dealer to just look at the gas version - get a sense of size and feel.

My dealer had just gotten four in, but they hadn't been processed and had already been sold to the service department (same location, different business entity) so I couldn't sit in them. They looked very nice.

I told the kid, who was probably 14 years old (ok, mid-20s) that I specifically was interested in only the Hybrid version, and might be willing to pre-order. I knew what the MSRP was based on the $1400 upcharge from the gas version to the hybrid, and I had built a gas layout online.

Honestly, I knew more about the vehicle than the sales rep, and he recognized that and didn't try to BS me. In fact, he asked a lot of questions since I knew a few more things about it than he did. Very respectful in that regard and I have no complaints.

Before even walking in, I worked up a spreadsheet where I entered the MSRP costs of the vehicle and all options, and then had columns showing discounts from 4% to 10% so I could quickly determine where the deal would land. It even calculated out the taxes, and other costs that wouldn't be discountable (license, delivery, etc).

In any case, I told him specifically "I don't want to shop around, so make me your best deal and if the number is right, I'll order one". They came back with an MSRP of $53k (which matched my numbers from what I've researched) and a discount of $3k, which amounted to about 6% off MSRP. No incentives, obviously. Toyota invoices are generally 91-92% of MSRP, so in theory there was about $1500ish of wiggle room before brushing up against that MSRP. All in all a not AWFUL first number. I told him I'd follow up this week. If they had offered 92% MSRP, I probably would have put $1k down right there.

I ultimately ended up getting cold feet, because honestly the Highlander was physically bigger than I was expecting (I'm coming from a Lincoln MKX) and it may just be more vehicle than I need. I want the towing capacity, but just don't need that much space. I may fall back to seriously reconsider a Rav4 Hybrid (even though the noise issues seem to persist with the 2020s) or wait for the Honda CRV Hybrid or Rav4 Prime PEHV in the spring, and forgo the desire for 3500lbs towing capacity. I drive a significant amount for work, so a Hybrid is pretty much a "must-have" for me - the 20mpg of my MKX is killin' me. Highlander is still a strong option (35mpg), but I want to see the others before I commit.

If I was going to continue, I'd fire off emails to other dealers stating my case and desired layout, and asking for the OTD price, using the $50k quoted me as the base. After I got numbers, I'd go back to my preferred dealer and give them the "hey, you gotta meet or beat this" dance.
sambb
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by sambb »

some people like to avoid negotiating by buying a car that has a set price (tesla for example). apple does the same with computers. But htose companies have gross margins much higher than a bad negotiation at an alternative car dealer (toyota). fixed price is not always a good thing.
hudson
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by hudson »

Banditking,

You're on the right track. If you're in a hurry, maybe go ahead and order what you want and pay the price.
If not, maybe wait until dealers have several on their lots....that could be several months.

If emails work, go with emails. For me, I've had better luck with calling a few dealers to build a working relationship with a specific person at each dealer...hopefully a sales manager or internet manager. I want to establish that I'm a serious buyer. Then I'd detail what I wanted. I don't hesitate to give the dealer my contact information. If I'm going to buy soon, I'll try to get the dealer person's work schedule...and a backup name if the key dealer person is going to be gone. EDIT: As a buyer, I'm looking for the most effective way to communicate. I like phone backed up with email or texts....but I want to know what works best for the person that I'm dealing with. When talking with the key person at a dealership, I'll ask what works best for him or her and make a note. If it's crunch time and I want to get a message through, this is valuable information. I don't want to miss that last low bid. I'm also looking for an effective salesperson/manager to deal with. I like it when a salesperson is a good listener. I like it when the salesperson says, what can I do to earn your business.

I don't have much to say; I briefly tell them what I want...in detail and ask for an OTD (out the door) price.
I don't say that I'm shopping around for the best price, because they already know that....or that I'm getting bids, etc....they know.

If you're dealing with a scarce vehicle, you're only negotiation angle is that you might go with another dealer....but you already know that.

Email, phone, fax, or other? I like the phone best, but you never know what works best. If one doesn't work, try another. Whatever, I want them to think that they've got a big fish on a hook when I contact them...because they do. I want them to think, "I might get a sale here and $XXX commission if I give this guy a quote. He sounds serious. I hear his voice, I have his address, email, and phone number....he's real...he's serious! I'm going to work with him. Maybe my boss will give him a price that'll make him swallow the hook."
Last edited by hudson on Thu Jan 02, 2020 7:32 am, edited 2 times in total.
FinIndyGal
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by FinIndyGal »

FinIndyGal wrote: Wed Dec 25, 2019 6:57 pm
LadyGeek wrote: Wed Dec 25, 2019 5:17 pm
FinIndyGal wrote: Wed Dec 25, 2019 2:22 pm LadyGeek,

My 1999 BMW died because it needed a sensor, but I didn’t want to put any more money into it since it’s 20-years old. I really needed a new vehicle, too. After doing a ridiculous amount of research, I finally decided to get a 2020 RAV4 XLE Premium. Every dealer in my large metro wanted to sell me what they wanted me to buy (meaning what’s on their lot) versus what I wanted to buy. They all had what I didn’t want like premium colors or other color combos and thousands of dollars in packages and accessories added. They refused to get me what I wanted – a Super White exterior and nutmeg interior with no add-ons. You’d think I was asking for a pot of gold. I’m sure they thought that I’d eventually cave even though they didn’t know I was desperate for another vehicle. It was amazing how they continued to send me price quotes for what they had on their lots regardless of how many times I told them that’s not what I wanted. The dealer I purchased from was the only one willing to get the exact vehicle I requested, and he was in the next county over about 20 miles away. He was able to intercept and allocate my new RAV4 to his dealership and trade one of his allocations with another dealer. He caught it in time before it arrived at the port, and he was able to remove the add-ons that were scheduled by SET Distributors and instead add on only all weather floor mats and the cargo mat that he was throwing into my deal. My RAV4 then came straight from the port to him, and it had three miles on it when I picked it up on Friday.

I don’t know how I did it, but I managed to hold out until I could get what would make me happy (i.e., not spending thousands of dollars for add-ons that I didn’t want). It took forever, but it pays to be very stubborn and patient and not play into their silly games of trying to increase the price by adding a bunch of expensive options. I negotiated only via email with the General Sales Manager, and I never spoke to him until I was ready to do the deal. I paid 12.48% off MSRP. I also paid $5k less OTD for my 2020 than my neighbor’s friend who bought a 2019 RAV4 XLE Premium just a few months before the 2020’s came out. I’m sure this is because she has paint protection and everything else under the sun that was added on, which I refused to do. On the other hand, it would have been a lot less stressful if I had done this more quickly like you did. There’s a lot of value to that, too, including saving years on my life by not enduring all the stress.
FinIndyGal,

Stress was indeed a factor in my decision to make an immediate purchase. If it's within budget, I value my time and stress level as well as the product's price. To be clear, the stress is from my current situation (want to dump the 2012 Honda CR-V and clear my plate) - there is zero, zip, nada stress from the sales process.

I didn't mention this earlier, but my added packages bring my 2020 RAV4 LE up to nearly a RAV4 XLE (not the Premium XLE). I've got:

- Blind Spot Monitor (BSM) with Rear Cross-Traffic Alert (RCTA) - $590 MSRP
- Rear Cargo Area Cover - $90 MSRP
- All weather floor liners and cargo liner - $269 MSRP
- Door edge Guard - $140 MSRP
- Mudguard - $129 MSRP

I also paid extra for the color (Ruby Flare Pearl).

My 2020 RAV4 is AWD (All Wheel Drive). Based on my experience with my 2012 CR-V (on-demand AWD), I appreciated the times it kicked in to remind me that my driving style needed to adapt to the road conditions. This is a safety issue, so I never considered the front-wheel drive only models.

Tip: Be sure to consider the cost of insurance on your new purchase. My 6 month premium increased $140 - from a 2012 Honda CR-V with 105k miles to a brand new 2020 RAV4 with 0 miles. Call your insurance company before you make your purchase to get a quote - they'll need a VIN. If it's not the exact car, the VIN from a similar car is fine. Did I do this for the RAV4? No...
LadyGeek,

It's interesting that the all weather floor mats with all weather cargo mat on my sticker has an MSRP of $409.00, but my dealer gave them to me at no charge anyway. I assume yours is cheaper because Southeast Toyota Distributor added mine on at the port, and I guess they charge more. They seem to rule everything down here.

I'm glad I don't need AWD since I'm in Florida. I understand that's a lot of extra money, too.

I did call my insurance agent before I purchased. At the time, I was still trying to decide between a 2020 Camry XLE and the RAV4. Believe it or not, the RAV4 was $50 cheaper the first year. I read an article that Camry's are one of the top ten stolen cars so I assume that's the reason. This is one of the reasons I decided to get the RAV4.
LadyGeek,

I've since realized that it appears you have something different than I do because you said you have all weather liners versus mats for $269 MSRP. I thought your MSRP was less because maybe Southeast Toyota Distributor charges more, but that's not the case. I remembered that on Toyota's website it shows the MSRP of $409 (see link) for mats, which is what was on my sticker. I'm wondering if what you have is a dealer add-on versus by the distributor. Either way they work, but I couldn't understand why yours were less. Do yours say RAV4 on them? I'm just curious.

https://www.toyota.com/configurator/bui ... es/option2
pj1983
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by pj1983 »

sc9182 wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2016 9:12 am (snip)

If you have USAA, there is a search method to look for Best Deals for the type of cars you are looking (in-addition to best price for your specific car). This I found extremely useful, so that either you can pit competition against each other, or if you are slightly flexible in brand, you can snatch insane deal towards end of month (also end of model year 2016 sales, currently!).

(snip)
USAA must have changed something on their site. Every place I click on that looks like "see what others have paid" or similar takes me to a link to send my query to dealers. Not quite ready to take that step yet.
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by LadyGeek »

FinIndyGal wrote: Thu Dec 26, 2019 7:50 am ...LadyGeek,

I've since realized that it appears you have something different than I do because you said you have all weather liners versus mats for $269 MSRP. I thought your MSRP was less because maybe Southeast Toyota Distributor charges more, but that's not the case. I remembered that on Toyota's website it shows the MSRP of $409 (see link) for mats, which is what was on my sticker. I'm wondering if what you have is a dealer add-on versus by the distributor. Either way they work, but I couldn't understand why yours were less. Do yours say RAV4 on them? I'm just curious.

https://www.toyota.com/configurator/bui ... es/option2
Interesting, as we can both blame Toyota. The link needs a zip code to provide the available options for your area. Entering Philadelphia (19101) shows:

All-weather floor liners - $169
All-weather liner package - $269
+ 4 carpet liner packages
Mudguards - $129

Since you're in the Southeast US, I entered a zip code for Miami FL (33101). I get this:

All weather floor mats with all weather Cargo mat - $469
Carpet floor mats carpet cargo mat - $409
- no other liner packages seen
Mudguards - $199

I added the mudguards because they look like the same product, but are cheaper in my area. OTOH, the "Phone Cable & Charge package w/Two smart USB ports" package is not offered.

Important: Be very sure of the USB port specs. My RAV4 has one "media" USB port. The RAV4 XLE has 1 "media" USB port and 4 charging-only USB ports. Only the media USB port can connect to your car (Android Auto). The rest can only charge your devices.

If I want fast charging, or a passenger has a second phone that needs charging, I have a 12 V power to USB adapter ($20 from amazon), works fine.
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by tc101 »

I tried the technique in the original post of this thread. I contacted the 5 dealers closest to me. Only 1 responded with a price. After repeated requests from the others for a phone call or visit to their show room, and repeated insistence by me that they email me an OTD price, one other dealer sent me a price, but it was absurdly high.

So now I have two prices. One is high and the other is absurdly high. The other 3 dealers have totally refused to give me an OTD price with email, just insisting that they will give me a great price if I just talk to them on the phone or visit their showroom.

So I am wondering if the technique given in the original post really works?

Maybe this is the busiest time of the year for car dealers and I should wait a few weeks and try again.
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by LadyGeek »

I think the dealers are coming up with a counter-attack to the "email only for your best price" approach, which is to not respond to the emails and force you to do this in person.

The Toyota website I purchased my 2020 RAV4 from did not offer an easy way to email them. I eventually found an online form, but their response was "Sorry, we don't understand what you're look for. Please clarify." At that point, I figured I should do this in person.

What works for trade-ins: Get the CarFax price for your car, no negotiation is needed. Wait until they tell you the price, then compare with what you see on the CarFax site (What's Your Car Worth?).
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by pj1983 »

tc101 wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:08 am I tried the technique in the original post of this thread. I contacted the 5 dealers closest to me. Only 1 responded with a price. After repeated requests from the others for a phone call or visit to their show room, and repeated insistence by me that they email me an OTD price, one other dealer sent me a price, but it was absurdly high.

So now I have two prices. One is high and the other is absurdly high. The other 3 dealers have totally refused to give me an OTD price with email, just insisting that they will give me a great price if I just talk to them on the phone or visit their showroom.

So I am wondering if the technique given in the original post really works?

Maybe this is the busiest time of the year for car dealers and I should wait a few weeks and try again.
I'm seeing the same thing. I started working this technique just after Christmas. Of 6 dealers emailed, 2 replied with standard form letter-style replies about how busy they are at the end of the year and that I needed to call or visit. Three of the four others are within $200 of each other (and their "published" Internet price) and don't want to budge. The fourth was $1000 less but they only had one vehicle meeting my specs on their lot, which now appears to have been sold.

One thing I was able to confirm was the worthlessness of "buying services". I used a different email for those, and one of the dealers that did respond via email to my direct inquiry also quoted me a price $2k higher on the same vehicle as "Your preferred program price".

edit: a couple of responses seemed to imply, and one said directly, that the quoted prices are only good through today (31 Dec 2019). We'll see.
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by A440 »

pj1983 wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:30 am
tc101 wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:08 am
One thing I was able to confirm was the worthlessness of "buying services". I used a different email for those, and one of the dealers that did respond via email to my direct inquiry also quoted me a price $2k higher on the same vehicle as "Your preferred program price".
It might depend on the buying service. TrueCar was about MSRP (which means nothing) on the 2020 vehicle I purchased in December. It was a new model year and only started arriving at the end of November. Costco's auto-buying service was slightly above invoice price (which means nothing). However, once I had a printed Costco price, I could play the "can you beat the lowest OTD price" game with dealers within a 75 mile radius. Some dealers wouldn't budge, but several would (even if they needed to get the car from another dealership in a swap) and that was all it took to get a good OTD price. The dealership I ended up at (about 30 miles away) was a late "entry". But it was my "lucky day" because they just got the car with the color combination I was seeking and matched the lowest OTD price of the competing dealers.
In the end, I got the car I wanted for better than the Costco pre-negotiated price, and the dealership got 3% of the MSRP as holdback + any incentives from the manufacturer that most likely were available, + meeting any dealership month-end/year-end goal.
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by hudson »

tc101 wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:08 am I tried the technique in the original post of this thread. I contacted the 5 dealers closest to me. Only 1 responded with a price. After repeated requests from the others for a phone call or visit to their show room, and repeated insistence by me that they email me an OTD price, one other dealer sent me a price, but it was absurdly high.

So now I have two prices. One is high and the other is absurdly high. The other 3 dealers have totally refused to give me an OTD price with email, just insisting that they will give me a great price if I just talk to them on the phone or visit their showroom.

So I am wondering if the technique given in the original post really works?

Maybe this is the busiest time of the year for car dealers and I should wait a few weeks and try again.
tc101,
I think that emails-only can work, but emails don't work as well as they used to. Emails have been overused so dealers see a lot of work with no payback. If a dealer had a lot full of cars that weren't selling too well, they might respond. Dealers might not respond to an email for a vehicle that is easy to sell. If they have a hot shot internet manager that is good at emails, that dealer might work. It depends.

The last few non-weekend days of any month or the last few days of the year are great days to buy because some dealers or salespersons haven't met their quota. A dealer may be shooting for some factory reward?

I like to first choose the vehicle that I want without talking price at all....visit dealers, shop around and write down exactly what I want. Then I call about 5 dealers asking for Out The Door prices for my specific choice. (I don't talk much; I don't say that I'm getting bids or explain my process, because I've gotten bad vibes from dealers when I do that.) I give my name and contact information. If it's true, I'll tell them that I'm a serious buyer that's going to buy a vehicle in a day or two. I ask for the salesperson's name and a backup if the salesperson is going to be off work. If a dealer doesn't seem interested, I keep calling other dealers. until I get roughly 5 total OTD prices. I don't pay any attention to the charges that make up the OTD price. The OTD price is all I care about. I'll call everyone back that gave me an OTD price and tell them that I got a $XXXX price and I'll probably go with it. They know what to do if they want to sell me a vehicle. They could easily make a deal with me with 15 minutes of work. I've had dealers give me OTD prices over the phone in a few minutes.

I always let the seller name the price because you never know how low they'll go. If they ask me what I'd pay, I give a vague non-answer.

I compare my final result with the quote that I get from a huge dealer in a nearby city. They never give me a 2d OTD price. I see their names on license tags holders in my town all the time even though they are an hour away. They have great advertising and very good salespeople. My final OTD quotes are usually 2-3K lower.
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by tc101 »

It might depend on the buying service. TrueCar was about MSRP (which means nothing) on the 2020 vehicle I purchased in December. It was a new model year and only started arriving at the end of November. Costco's auto-buying service was slightly above invoice price (which means nothing). However, once I had a printed Costco price, I could play the "can you beat the lowest OTD price" game with dealers within a 75 mile radius. Some dealers wouldn't budge, but several would (even if they needed to get the car from another dealership in a swap) and that was all it took to get a good OTD price. The dealership I ended up at (about 30 miles away) was a late "entry". But it was my "lucky day" because they just got the car with the color combination I was seeking and matched the lowest OTD price of the competing dealers.
In the end, I got the car I wanted for better than the Costco pre-negotiated price, and the dealership got 3% of the MSRP as holdback + any incentives from the manufacturer that most likely were available, + meeting any dealership month-end/year-end goal.
How much did you save by doing this? How far below the costco or truecar price?
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by A440 »

tc101 wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:43 am
It might depend on the buying service. TrueCar was about MSRP (which means nothing) on the 2020 vehicle I purchased in December. It was a new model year and only started arriving at the end of November. Costco's auto-buying service was slightly above invoice price (which means nothing). However, once I had a printed Costco price, I could play the "can you beat the lowest OTD price" game with dealers within a 75 mile radius. Some dealers wouldn't budge, but several would (even if they needed to get the car from another dealership in a swap) and that was all it took to get a good OTD price. The dealership I ended up at (about 30 miles away) was a late "entry". But it was my "lucky day" because they just got the car with the color combination I was seeking and matched the lowest OTD price of the competing dealers.
In the end, I got the car I wanted for better than the Costco pre-negotiated price, and the dealership got 3% of the MSRP as holdback + any incentives from the manufacturer that most likely were available, + meeting any dealership month-end/year-end goal.
How much did you save by doing this? How far below the costco or truecar price?
TrueCar's price was MSRP-$34,550
Costco's price was $32,800
The cost on my buyer's order was $32,100.
IMHO, TrueCar is heavily subsidized by dealerships and only gives the buyer a sense of whether or not they receive(d) a fair price.
As Hudson points out, OTD price is the way to go. One can get a really low-ball price on the vehicle, but then the dealership can "pad" the price with superfluous things. By comparing only the OTD price, it doesn't matter much what is in the buyer's order, except the exact vehicle and VIN# you wish.
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Results OTD Bidding...latest 2 vehicles purchased

Post by hudson »

Both vehicles were end of month purchases. I made a deal for each vehicle on the 2d or 3d day after starting. Both vehicles were in good supply. It pays to shop around!
You never know until you call....or make contact...fax, email, or other.

Last Vehicle
Quotes over the OTD price paid...4 dealers total
900
1000
4800

Vehicle 2...Quotes over OTD price...note...the highest bidders only gave me one quote...7 dealers total
188
2809
3243
3294
4138
4502
Last edited by hudson on Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by Helo80 »

It does not surprise me that some of y'all are not being taken seriously by requesting emailed, OTD quotes.

Imagine this --- you're a car dealership that gets hammered by these type of people. It takes time to craft an email and quote approved by the Sales Manager all the while it's plainly transparent that the person on the other end of the email is shopping around and may not even be a serious buyer.

I think sales data that dealers buy show that 10% of internet leads convert to a sale. I believe it's 25% of showroom visits convert to a sale. I could be entirely wrong on this though.

At the end of the day, most of y'all live in areas with competition. It's not hard to pickup a phone or stop by a showroom. That means far more than digital conversations. It may work in some areas, but the resistance some of y'all get is not surprising.
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by nativenewenglander »

Helo80 wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 10:56 am It does not surprise me that some of y'all are not being taken seriously by requesting emailed, OTD quotes.

Imagine this --- you're a car dealership that gets hammered by these type of people. It takes time to craft an email and quote approved by the Sales Manager all the while it's plainly transparent that the person on the other end of the email is shopping around and may not even be a serious buyer.

I think sales data that dealers buy show that 10% of internet leads convert to a sale. I believe it's 25% of showroom visits convert to a sale. I could be entirely wrong on this though.

At the end of the day, most of y'all live in areas with competition. It's not hard to pickup a phone or stop by a showroom. That means far more than digital conversations. It may work in some areas, but the resistance some of y'all get is not surprising.
I emailed six or so dealers for our new 2019 Mazda CX5 Touring. Everyone of the dealers got back to me with a quote only one didn't include their administration fee. I sent a note to them stressing I wanted all the costs before I would decide. We live in a rural area with the nearest Mazda dealer 90 minutes away. Lucky for us that was the dealer that had the best price and who we purchased from. They were competitive with dealers 4 hours away in MA. We drove their in my wife's Subaru Forester, we traded it they gave us a fair price for it. Wrote them a personal check for $23309 then drove home with the new car.
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by Helo80 »

nativenewenglander wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:55 am I emailed six or so dealers for our new 2019 Mazda CX5 Touring. Everyone of the dealers got back to me with a quote only one didn't include their administration fee. I sent a note to them stressing I wanted all the costs before I would decide. We live in a rural area with the nearest Mazda dealer 90 minutes away. Lucky for us that was the dealer that had the best price and who we purchased from. They were competitive with dealers 4 hours away in MA. We drove their in my wife's Subaru Forester, we traded it they gave us a fair price for it. Wrote them a personal check for $23309 then drove home with the new car.

I am glad that this method worked out well for you. In my area, I have found that making contact with a sales or internet manager and then sniping a single VIN usually works very well. I have not never blindly solicited dealers for their best offer as I fully understand that many would see it as a waste of their time. The internet is a great mechanism for some stuff, but does nothing for building relationships.
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by Helo80 »

LadyGeek wrote: Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:18 pm Yes, thanks. That is exactly what I thought - the law of supply and demand holds true.

==================================
When I closed-out the paperwork today, the salesman sat in the car with me to review how the controls worked. After he went through the demo, he then stated that I was going to receive a very important email.
I think that you did fine on your deal as the Rav4 is a hot moving product, and you got the car you wanted. Unfortunately, PF types tend to make car buying decisions much more difficult than it has to be and/or tend to think there is always more money to be saved if one simply grinds the dealers down more. Most PF savvy types are already adverse to ever having to buy cars, and then have all sorts of ideas and bad info about how the process goes.


LadyGeek wrote: Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:18 pm I didn't have the heart to tell him that I never, ever answer email surveys.

Those surveys are far from corporate though and to keep the franchised dealerships in check. I understand your policy, but if you had a good experience, it does help the dealership. If you had a negative experience, maybe something can be done.

I personally answer the surveys, so that the dealership looks good.
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by FinIndyGal »

LadyGeek wrote: Thu Dec 26, 2019 3:17 pm
FinIndyGal wrote: Thu Dec 26, 2019 7:50 am ...LadyGeek,

I've since realized that it appears you have something different than I do because you said you have all weather liners versus mats for $269 MSRP. I thought your MSRP was less because maybe Southeast Toyota Distributor charges more, but that's not the case. I remembered that on Toyota's website it shows the MSRP of $409 (see link) for mats, which is what was on my sticker. I'm wondering if what you have is a dealer add-on versus by the distributor. Either way they work, but I couldn't understand why yours were less. Do yours say RAV4 on them? I'm just curious.

https://www.toyota.com/configurator/bui ... es/option2
Interesting, as we can both blame Toyota. The link needs a zip code to provide the available options for your area. Entering Philadelphia (19101) shows:

All-weather floor liners - $169
All-weather liner package - $269
+ 4 carpet liner packages
Mudguards - $129

Since you're in the Southeast US, I entered a zip code for Miami FL (33101). I get this:

All weather floor mats with all weather Cargo mat - $469
Carpet floor mats carpet cargo mat - $409
- no other liner packages seen
Mudguards - $199

I added the mudguards because they look like the same product, but are cheaper in my area. OTOH, the "Phone Cable & Charge package w/Two smart USB ports" package is not offered.

Important: Be very sure of the USB port specs. My RAV4 has one "media" USB port. The RAV4 XLE has 1 "media" USB port and 4 charging-only USB ports. Only the media USB port can connect to your car (Android Auto). The rest can only charge your devices.

If I want fast charging, or a passenger has a second phone that needs charging, I have a 12 V power to USB adapter ($20 from amazon), works fine.
LadyGeek,

Thanks. I find it very annoying that your floor and cargo mats are $140 less for the exact same thing so it’s a good thing my dealer didn’t charge me for those. I also find it interesting that Miami has different prices for the all weather and carpet mats where in Central Florida they’re the same price for both types. I don’t understand this considering the MSRP of the vehicle itself is the same regardless of zip.

I appreciate the tip regarding the USB ports. Mine has 1 media and 4 charging. I really need to make it a priority to read the manuals to make sure I understand everything about my new vehicle. I’m sure glad that there’s a Quick Reference Guide until I can read all of the Owner’s Manual, which is 736 pages.
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by LadyGeek »

Helo80 wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 3:03 pm Those surveys are far from corporate though and to keep the franchised dealerships in check. I understand your policy, but if you had a good experience, it does help the dealership. If you had a negative experience, maybe something can be done.

I personally answer the surveys, so that the dealership looks good.
Good point. My friends recommended I complete the survey for the same reason - the company won't know anything is wrong unless you tell them. I completed the survey. Let's see if they contact me.
FinIndyGal wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 4:21 pm I appreciate the tip regarding the USB ports. Mine has 1 media and 4 charging. I really need to make it a priority to read the manuals to make sure I understand everything about my new vehicle. I’m sure glad that there’s a Quick Reference Guide until I can read all of the Owner’s Manual, which is 736 pages.
If you've created a Toyota online account, you can download all the manuals in PDF format.

Now that I have blind spot monitoring on my side mirrors, I'm now noticing how many other cars have the same feature (it's not just Toyota). When I pass a car from the left lane, the warning indicator on the side mirror of the car I'm passing (on my right) starts flashing. :)
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by Leesbro63 »

LadyGeek wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 7:11 pm Now that I have blind spot monitoring on my side mirrors, I'm now noticing how many other cars have the same feature (it's not just Toyota). When I pass a car from the left lane, the warning indicator on the side mirror of the car I'm passing (on my right) starts flashing. :)
Wait until the first time your automatic emergency braking kicks in. Even if you're a good driver, sooner or later the car will stop before you would have stopped it manually. You'll be surprised but will like that feeling of extra protection.
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by LadyGeek »

I've stopped counting the number of times my left foot went to set the parking brake and hit nothing but the floor mat. :)

================
Mentioned earlier, I got a $1,000 price drop by financing part of the payment with Toyota Financial Services. (I split between cash and financing to get the $1,000).

I'm impressed with Toyota's online loan servicing, as the loan just showed up in my online account. It was very easy to setup a bank account and complete the payoff transaction. The payoff amount was calculated for the middle of the month.

I expect a check for the daily interest difference between now and then ($0.82 / day) and the title to be mailed to my house.

So, my price drop was actually $990 = $1,000 - $10 interest.
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by nativenewenglander »

Helo80 wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:30 pm
nativenewenglander wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:55 am I emailed six or so dealers for our new 2019 Mazda CX5 Touring. Everyone of the dealers got back to me with a quote only one didn't include their administration fee. I sent a note to them stressing I wanted all the costs before I would decide. We live in a rural area with the nearest Mazda dealer 90 minutes away. Lucky for us that was the dealer that had the best price and who we purchased from. They were competitive with dealers 4 hours away in MA. We drove their in my wife's Subaru Forester, we traded it they gave us a fair price for it. Wrote them a personal check for $23309 then drove home with the new car.

I am glad that this method worked out well for you. In my area, I have found that making contact with a sales or internet manager and then sniping a single VIN usually works very well. I have not never blindly solicited dealers for their best offer as I fully understand that many would see it as a waste of their time. The internet is a great mechanism for some stuff, but does nothing for building relationships.
I wasn't looking to build a relationship, just buy a car. I had no problem getting pricing from any dealers. I crafted a professional letter explaining my needs and wants, they responded with their best pricing. I sent a second letter to the closest dealer showing him the pricing I got, he lowered the price another $300 to match the next lowest and we bought that car. I followed up with all of the dealers that we purchased a car, thanking them for their time and effort. All but one sent a note of congratulations and good luck.
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by Leesbro63 »

LadyGeek wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:49 pm I've stopped counting the number of times my left foot went to set the parking brake and hit nothing but the floor mat. :)

================
Mentioned earlier, I got a $1,000 price drop by financing part of the payment with Toyota Financial Services. (I split between cash and financing to get the $1,000).

I'm impressed with Toyota's online loan servicing, as the loan just showed up in my online account. It was very easy to setup a bank account and complete the payoff transaction. The payoff amount was calculated for the middle of the month.

I expect a check for the daily interest difference between now and then ($0.82 / day) and the title to be mailed to my house.

So, my price drop was actually $990 = $1,000 - $10 interest.
I did the same thing (also Toyota Financial) for a $500 saving three years ago. But I was told that I had to keep the loan for 90 days to avoid a clawback. Come to think of it, I never saw that in writing and I didn’t test it because the interest rate was close to zero...not enough dollars involved to get worked up about. But I’m curious if you’re sure it’s OK to payoff so soon (that you’re not risking your $1000 savings).
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by Leesbro63 »

nativenewenglander wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:36 am
Helo80 wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:30 pm
nativenewenglander wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:55 am I emailed six or so dealers for our new 2019 Mazda CX5 Touring. Everyone of the dealers got back to me with a quote only one didn't include their administration fee. I sent a note to them stressing I wanted all the costs before I would decide. We live in a rural area with the nearest Mazda dealer 90 minutes away. Lucky for us that was the dealer that had the best price and who we purchased from. They were competitive with dealers 4 hours away in MA. We drove their in my wife's Subaru Forester, we traded it they gave us a fair price for it. Wrote them a personal check for $23309 then drove home with the new car.

I am glad that this method worked out well for you. In my area, I have found that making contact with a sales or internet manager and then sniping a single VIN usually works very well. I have not never blindly solicited dealers for their best offer as I fully understand that many would see it as a waste of their time. The internet is a great mechanism for some stuff, but does nothing for building relationships.
I wasn't looking to build a relationship, just buy a car. I had no problem getting pricing from any dealers. I crafted a professional letter explaining my needs and wants, they responded with their best pricing. I sent a second letter to the closest dealer showing him the pricing I got, he lowered the price another $300 to match the next lowest and we bought that car. I followed up with all of the dealers that we purchased a car, thanking them for their time and effort. All but one sent a note of congratulations and good luck.
On the one hand, I kinda miss the “relationship” days where my dad bought a new car every 2 years from the same plaid-suited salesman. On the other hand, it’s 2020 and, yeah, it’s a consumer purchase, not making a new friend.
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by LadyGeek »

Leesbro63 wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2020 5:57 am
LadyGeek wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:49 pm ...Mentioned earlier, I got a $1,000 price drop by financing part of the payment with Toyota Financial Services. (I split between cash and financing to get the $1,000).

I'm impressed with Toyota's online loan servicing, as the loan just showed up in my online account. It was very easy to setup a bank account and complete the payoff transaction. The payoff amount was calculated for the middle of the month.

I expect a check for the daily interest difference between now and then ($0.82 / day) and the title to be mailed to my house.

So, my price drop was actually $990 = $1,000 - $10 interest.
I did the same thing (also Toyota Financial) for a $500 saving three years ago. But I was told that I had to keep the loan for 90 days to avoid a clawback. Come to think of it, I never saw that in writing and I didn’t test it because the interest rate was close to zero...not enough dollars involved to get worked up about. But I’m curious if you’re sure it’s OK to payoff so soon (that you’re not risking your $1000 savings).
Interesting, as the finance manager told me to "make a few payments" before paying it off. My retail installment sale contract says "No prepayment penalty". Period. If there's a clawback, they'll have to show me where, exactly, it's stated in my contract.

The contract includes the $1,000 as a rebate. "Rebate" only appears in the contract as "rebate of finance charge", which has no relation to the promotional rebate incentive to finance the vehicle.

The contract is on Form "LAW® 553 Retail Installment Contract". Specifically, "553-PA-ARB-ea" for PA.
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by hudson »

Helo80 wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 3:03 pm PF types
What are PF types? many thanks!
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