The Future of Cars in Suburbia?

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MishkaWorries
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Re: The Future of Cars in Suburbia?

Post by MishkaWorries »

mike@jb wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:39 pm
Flannelbeard wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:24 pm I really doubt this swarm of taxis is going to take over as futurists and Tesla fanboys seem to claim. Most people like having their own car; their own personal space....

Absent some sort of government legislation making it illegal to own personal vehicles, I'll still be driving my car around 40 years from now.
This! I enjoy driving my own cars.
Since I’m already over 60, I doubt I have 40 more years of driving.
But I want to do it myself as long as I am competent.
Does anyone remember those electric car sharing programs that were popular a few years ago.

Yuck!

The cars were smelly, dirty, food wrappers in the floor, sticky steering wheels, stains on the seats and poorly maintained. That is the future of self-driving taxis.
We plan. G-d laughs.
mffl
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Re: The Future of Cars in Suburbia?

Post by mffl »

stimulacra wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:41 pm
Californiastate wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:31 pm
stimulacra wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:24 pm If there's a revolution in mobility, micro-mobility, and teleworking… suburbia as we know it (secluded subdivisions accessible by highway) might be a thing of the past since having huge chunks of our developed landscape devoted to commuting and parking won't be as imperative as it once was.

Realistically though I think most families will keep a mix of vehicle types; one ICE automobile and one EV. One for economy and one for fun, range, or whatever anxiety that will keep consumers from fully committing to EV.
COVID didn’t cause people to evacuate the suburbs. It was quite the opposite.
Yeah, there was nothing to do in cities during a lockdown and little incentive to pay for the HCOL. I'm not suggesting that suburbs will go away… just completely reimagined.
I think there are incentives to make suburbia *more* suburbia-like, not less. Up until a few years ago, all the recent trends were pro-urban. Here in Dallas, there's been a big increase lately in downtown urban housing, in a downtown that had practically no housing up until that point.

But now I think there are counter trends sufficient to at least allow suburbia to hold serve, if not grow. Sure, the "there's nothing to do" problem during covid in the cities is softening now, but plenty of people got out of the city because they had to during covid and ... they liked it. Some of them won't go back. Remote work (which I'm actually not a fan of) is here to stay. That probably dwarfs any other trends in either direction. And then if they actually pull off driverless cars, as another poster mentioned this could dramatically decrease housing density as you can work on emails to/from work for hours and then spend, say, 5-6 hours in office. Many of the benefits of remote work with fewer downsides.

Personally, I'm moving out of the suburbs and into the exurbs as I'll be able to work some from home, limiting the extra drive time, and I'm tired of the density and crime. I'm not the only one. Obviously urban living is awesome for many people and they will continue to love that. But many others like me have reacted to covid by thinking that suburbia wasn't suburbia enough. And plenty of people in the city now think suburbia sounds great.
Valuethinker
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Re: The Future of Cars in Suburbia?

Post by Valuethinker »

jackbeagle wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:36 pm Nothing will be replaced. Not in our lifetimes. There will be new ideas that are used on new builds, but that's about it. For the most part, suburbia and rural American homes, on the exterior, are a time capsule of the era. Save for less invasive touches like painting brick, solar panels, or landscaping... homes without garages largely are still without them, homes with carports still have them open, just as they did 30, 50 years ago. I see no reason that status quo would change unless there are some arbitrary and wild changes made on what is taxed and how. Maybe in the future, we are taxed per square foot of yard that is not occupied by the dwelling, prompting a mass selloff of back yards to be built upon.
As below. See also changes in zoning.
Regarding EV charging, I foresee a second "peak" electricity rate period where everyone comes home and plugs in their EV. Existing infrastructure does not support Level 3 charging in each home. It would require the service drop to be replaced in every residence, and distribution to be redone as well. Now, a good idea would be a Tesla Powerwall slow-charging to full, then a DC-to-DC link from that Powerwall to the vehicle could just dump all the charge into the car in 30 minutes without imposing that load on the grid.
1. Agree. In the sense that the "streetcar suburbs" of Brooklyn and Shaker Heights in Cleveland and Brookline in Boston are still there. When almost every major American city had streetcars, these suburbs were the commuter suburbs of the day. Most of them are still there in the same form, long after the streetcars have departed.

The postwar suburbs, starting with Levittown in Long Island (?) was predicated on family car ownership. One car, with wife & children at home during the day. Then 2 cars as that became affordable, women went out to work, 3 and 4 cars (one per licensed driver) later still ...

The urban form is durable. It will change if zoning laws are relaxed - see the explosion of condo towers at major surburban locations in Toronto, say. I believe this is also true of places like Tyson's Corner VA in suburban Washington DC.

What tends to happen with older single family homes in these suburbs, on relatively large lots, is they become "teardowns" ie the 1400 square foot home becomes a 3000 square foot home.

2. Therefore the inhabitants will still need personal vehicles. I don't see AV-cars as a big feature in the next 10 years, say. Too many intractable problems. We will accept errors in driving (leading to death and injury) from drivers, but not from a computer.

Uber & Lyft are business models that have not yet shown their long term durability & profitability.

3. On charging there is already peak rate electricity (typically 4-8pm M to F?) in many parts of the USA (& other countries). The cost to the local Low Voltage grid of trying to handle big additional loads of EV charging would just be unaffordable. So if you want to charge your car before 8pm (or 9 pm in summer in much of USA) then it will be a very expensive task.

People will charge their cars overnight (I think the charging protocol is called "Level 2"?) with a similar circuit to the 240v AC (?) that many US homes use for water heaters, washing machines etc. 4-8 hours for a full charge (?).

You are absolutely right that home solar + home energy storage go very well with this. Generate in the day, use at peak hours.

As "behind the meter" generation grows, the big challenge will be to figure out how to remunerate the electricity Low Voltage and High Voltage (transmission) system when many customers don't actually consume much electricity. But they will still need grid connectivity. There are strong analogies to broadband (you pay by the size of your "pipe" ie connectivity, not by how much data you use).
bagle
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Re: The Future of Cars in Suburbia?

Post by bagle »

In this case, the future may look a lot like the past.

We Americans are addicted to cars - outside of a few urban metropolises such as NYC.

Other options aren't viable: Public transit is out (voters will reject any tax increase needed to fund it). Suburbia isn't designed to allow anyone to walk to a nearby market, school or workplace (even if a few may work at home part-time post-Pandemic). Micro mobility is fine for urban areas, but not very useful for safely transporting large packages from Home Depot. Motorcycles/motos are for Europeans and Asians. Robo-taxis are far off as even Tesla and Mobile Eye are stuck at Level 2 autonomy, and Waymo works only in limited, geofenced areas. I don't see anyone trusting personal helicopters in the near future, either. That leaves a 2-4 car garage in suburbia, even if the huge SUV is an electric vehicle.
stoptothink
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Re: The Future of Cars in Suburbia?

Post by stoptothink »

iamlucky13 wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:18 pm
stoptothink wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:49 pm
Walkure wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:43 pmI suspect more and more (especially younger, childless) homebuyers will opt for a similar arrangement.
My little sister just turned 18 and will be a senior. She's had a job for over 2yrs and has (to date) shown zero interest in even getting her license. She rides an electric scooter to work. Of the handful of her friends that I know, none of them have their license either. This is in the suburbs.
Of course, 18 year olds generally aren't the people defining the housing market.

Her transportation interests will probably evolve over time as her responsibilities and proximity to her friends changes. Even if her interests don't, most everyone else's always has changed as they get older, so I default to the expectation the transportation interests of the majority will continue in the future to change as individuals get older.

There is a slight downward trend in overall car ownership and driving rates, if I remember right. There is a much bigger downward trend in teen driving rates. Factors include public transit availability, re-evaluation of the costs and benefits, and probably most significantly, increased rules for teenagers getting a license. In those states that forbid drivers under 18 from having minors from another household in their vehicle, a major motivation for driving (to go places with friends) is eliminated, but those factors will not remain true as they get older.
Didn't say they were. In fact, I wasn't making a comment about the OP's questions at all. Just my observance that young adults are not excited about driving cars in the same way that they were two decades ago. I love having our two car garage and we only have a single car which almost never gets parked inside of it (it houses an extensive gym and all our bikes).

To the OP's question, I don't think garages are going out of style anytime soon because they are the most cost-effective form of storage, even if it isn't storing cars.
Colorado13
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Re: The Future of Cars in Suburbia?

Post by Colorado13 »

I live in the suburbs and can easily walk to grocery store, gym, shopping, etc. I can bike to other nearby businesses and to see friends.

But.... I need a garage because 1. We keep cars a long time and don't want them exposed to sun or hail and 2. Storage for croquet set, bikes, etc. is needed.

I could potentially be without a car (except for road trips, which are frequent) so don't actually believe it's feasible for me to be carless, but others might make different choices. I'm not taking an Uber to a hiking trail, for example.
knowledge
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Re: The Future of Cars in Suburbia?

Post by knowledge »

I believe we're in the trough of disillusionment for AVs. Timelines keep on getting pushed out, stories are now considering whether it's altogether even feasible - but I think the majority of the folks working on it still believe that it's a matter of when, not if.

That said, no one expects suburbia transportation to be much different in 5 years. And even if AVs do come to fruition, there has been no material trend to downsize house sizes. As income/wealth rise, so do house sizes. That means more things to cycle into your house, have to store, and then out of your house. I would not forecast needing less space.
bagle
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Re: The Future of Cars in Suburbia?

Post by bagle »

Colorado13 wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:39 am I live in the suburbs and can easily walk to grocery store, gym, shopping, etc. I can bike to other nearby businesses and to see friends.
Congrats, but I think you're the exception that proves the rule. My wife and I visited my parent's new suburban California home a few years back. They thought we were nuts when we told them we'd walk, rather than drive, to the nearest mall. And they were right: we had to risk our lives walking along a narrow shoulder when the sidewalk quickly ran out and cars whizzed closely by.
runswithscissors
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Re: The Future of Cars in Suburbia?

Post by runswithscissors »

Just in the last two days, $11 billion was invested in Cruise (GM) and Waymo (Google) self driving taxis. Clearly these mega corps are betting big on driverless taxi fleets. But I don't think they will be establishing commercial fleets that service suburbs for a good number of years. Urban core transport will likely change dramatically in the coming years however. Especially with new zoning regulations that promote car-free living (no parking required for new housing, bike lanes taking over parking/car lanes, etc). And with the new administration, this will likely accelerate. Over the next few years it will be increasingly more desirable to be car-less in the urban core but the suburbs will likely be left out for quite sometime... perhaps decades. The demographic for suburbs is very car-centric and I can't see that changing for many years.

I live in a SFH in the urban core and have a 1 car enclosed garage that I use for storage and off-street parking for two vehicles. I own an electric car that charges from an outdoor-mounted, weather proof level-2 charger (40A). My house is also covered in solar panels which helps to cover all the EV needs as well as my house.
Colorado13
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Re: The Future of Cars in Suburbia?

Post by Colorado13 »

bagle wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:42 am
Colorado13 wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:39 am I live in the suburbs and can easily walk to grocery store, gym, shopping, etc. I can bike to other nearby businesses and to see friends.
Congrats, but I think you're the exception that proves the rule. My wife and I visited my parent's new suburban California home a few years back. They thought we were nuts when we told them we'd walk, rather than drive, to the nearest mall. And they were right: we had to risk our lives walking along a narrow shoulder when the sidewalk quickly ran out and cars whizzed closely by.

I choose my home location very well, with amenities within walking and biking distance. There is a major bike route to a large mall near me, for example. I'm not a mall goer, but do walk to the grocery store, gym, Target, etc. as needed. So some suburbs are walkable; I agree that my location is likely an exception.

Also note that I love to walk, others will drive to a store even if the store is only a few blocks away. I anticipate that as I age, I will become more reliant on my car. Having amenities nearby will still be beneficial.

In this week's 100 degree heat, I'm happy to drive my car and not have to walk. The same will be true next winter when it's 10 degrees.
Colorado13
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Re: The Future of Cars in Suburbia?

Post by Colorado13 »

bagle wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:18 am In this case, the future may look a lot like the past.

We Americans are addicted to cars - outside of a few urban metropolises such as NYC.

Other options aren't viable: Public transit is out (voters will reject any tax increase needed to fund it). Suburbia isn't designed to allow anyone to walk to a nearby market, school or workplace (even if a few may work at home part-time post-Pandemic). Micro mobility is fine for urban areas, but not very useful for safely transporting large packages from Home Depot. Motorcycles/motos are for Europeans and Asians. Robo-taxis are far off as even Tesla and Mobile Eye are stuck at Level 2 autonomy, and Waymo works only in limited, geofenced areas. I don't see anyone trusting personal helicopters in the near future, either. That leaves a 2-4 car garage in suburbia, even if the huge SUV is an electric vehicle.
While I agree with part of your post, I also disagree that suburbia isn't designed to allow walking to school, market, farmers market, restaurants, swimming pool, doctor's office, etc. I can and do easily walk to ALL of these (and also to Home Depot, which you mentioned...although obviously I don't carry giant items home from there very often.) Pick your suburban location well and you can be less car reliant than otherwise.
stoptothink
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Re: The Future of Cars in Suburbia?

Post by stoptothink »

Colorado13 wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:36 am
bagle wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:42 am
Colorado13 wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:39 am I live in the suburbs and can easily walk to grocery store, gym, shopping, etc. I can bike to other nearby businesses and to see friends.
Congrats, but I think you're the exception that proves the rule. My wife and I visited my parent's new suburban California home a few years back. They thought we were nuts when we told them we'd walk, rather than drive, to the nearest mall. And they were right: we had to risk our lives walking along a narrow shoulder when the sidewalk quickly ran out and cars whizzed closely by.

I choose my home location very well, with amenities within walking and biking distance. There is a major bike route to a large mall near me, for example. I'm not a mall goer, but do walk to the grocery store, gym, Target, etc. as needed. So some suburbs are walkable; I agree that my location is likely an exception.
We're in the suburbs and in the exact same position; chose our home so I could walk to my office and my wife would have a <3 mile commute (which she could do on a bike when she needed). We have had a single car for 5yrs and with WFH now could easily do without it for weeks at a time with no issues. I ride my bike (with a trailer) to the grocery store, to parks and the library, my wife and kids train in a sport and we regularly ride bikes to their practices (~2 miles away and <.5m from my wife's office - she trains before work, riding her bike the days she's in office).

Not having to depend on commuting by car was the #1 priority when deciding where to buy a house and it has been maybe the greatest quality of life decision (OK, outside of marrying my wife) I have ever made.
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Re: The Future of Cars in Suburbia?

Post by retiringwhen »

Californiastate wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:37 pm Everybody was talking about autonomous vehicles taking over just a few years ago. It hasn't happened. Progress happens over decades.
I have video proof of my family talking about self-driving cars in 1989 at a Christmas party. I think we are only about 10% further along than in 1989.

The reality is so very much harder that the vision.

The idea in 1989 was auto-trains for long-distance driving as being an achievable goal in 10 years. We still can't even do that for both technological and legal (main) reasons. Auto-trains were an idea where a group of vehicles would join a sensor and command and control linked procession of vehicles on interstate (or other long haul) highways allowing individual units to join or leave on a regular basis. The driver would take over upon leaving, but relinquish control to the mesh while part of the train. The value proposition was safety, speed (go faster when coordinated), improved fuel economy and less stress. I believe that the legal problem of liability is the primary hurdle. The current technology could most likely handle that limited situation.

BTW, my brother-in-law and I came to the conclusion that what we'd actually get is a box in our car that said "turn left, turn right!" :wink:
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MikeWillRetire
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Re: The Future of Cars in Suburbia?

Post by MikeWillRetire »

I have a 25 year old son in L.A. and a 23 year old son in Boston. Neither one of them feels the need to buy a car. They live in areas where they can walk to various stores. On occasion they use Uber or rent a car for longer trips.
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Re: The Future of Cars in Suburbia?

Post by Californiastate »

MikeWillRetire wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:12 am I have a 25 year old son in L.A. and a 23 year old son in Boston. Neither one of them feels the need to buy a car. They live in areas where they can walk to various stores. On occasion they use Uber or rent a car for longer trips.
They are still young. I know people who were the same way in SF. The bohemian lifestyle finally grew old. The lifestyle was good when things were going well. When Covid and the riots hit they realized they just lived in a congested urban area. The suburbs didn't look so bad after all.
blastoff
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Re: The Future of Cars in Suburbia?

Post by blastoff »

There is a psychological aspect few seem to appreciate.

No one wants their kid killed by a robot car.

I think the bar for driverless safety will higher than eclipsing human driver levels.
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Re: The Future of Cars in Suburbia?

Post by Broken Man 1999 »

Californiastate wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:32 am
MikeWillRetire wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:12 am I have a 25 year old son in L.A. and a 23 year old son in Boston. Neither one of them feels the need to buy a car. They live in areas where they can walk to various stores. On occasion they use Uber or rent a car for longer trips.
They are still young. I know people who were the same way in SF. The bohemian lifestyle finally grew old. The lifestyle was good when things were going well. When Covid and the riots hit they realized they just lived in a congested urban area. The suburbs didn't look so bad after all.
Easy to do if no children. There must be a rule stating that if there are multiple children engaged in extracurricular activities, the venue can never be the same, requiring parents to schlep them individually. At least that was our experience.

Some cities aren't very welcoming for pedestrians or bikers, though corrective efforts are making headway.

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Re: The Future of Cars in Suburbia?

Post by CurlyDave »

BreadandButter wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:55 pm I am wondering what the future of car ownership looks like. We have a carport that needs replacing.  Will roving driverless Ubers mean parking for 2 cars unecessary?  What about electric car charging?  Will it be better to have that in a garage rather than in a carport?
We are looking for opinions on the short and longer term (5 to 30 year) outlook.
IMHO, the predictions of roving driverless cars miss one of the major uses of a personal car. They are used as mobile storage facilities for items you would like to have with you but are too bulky to keep on your person. Just ask any young mother how she is going to carry a change of clothes for two kids, a stroller for one, a diaper bag and whatever else she needs when she gets out of the Uber.

Even as a man, I carry rain gear, some tools (not exclusively for cars), and a change of clothes in my trunk.

Even 10 years ago I put 100 Amp/240 Volt electric service in the garage on a house I was intending to sell shortly. Along with the 240 Volt outlet for a BIG car charger. While that isn't obsolete today, I would strongly consider 200 Amp service to simultaneously charge two electric cars at the same time if I were doing it today. It is cheap during construction, expensive later.

I don't think I would put a car charger in a carport. It out be a great target for thieves.
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Re: The Future of Cars in Suburbia?

Post by Californiastate »

blastoff wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:06 pm There is a psychological aspect few seem to appreciate.

No one wants their kid killed by a robot car.

I think the bar for driverless safety will higher than eclipsing human driver levels.
I think it will take over quickly once the technology is approved for mass production. People don't generally buy premium brands for pragmatic reasons. They buy them so they can show people they are doing well. Your grandparents were probably a little apprehensive of the first cathode ray tube. They still didn't want to be the last on the block to own a TV.
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Re: The Future of Cars in Suburbia?

Post by vanbogle59 »

BreadandButter wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:55 pm I am wondering what the future of car ownership looks like. We have a carport that needs replacing.  Will roving driverless Ubers mean parking for 2 cars unecessary?  What about electric car charging?  Will it be better to have that in a garage rather than in a carport?
We are looking for opinions on the short and longer term (5 to 30 year) outlook.
I know nothing about the future of cars or suburbs.
But I have dabbled a bit in the forecasting business.

5 year predictions are really hard. But some people (say 5%?) do a reasonable job of it in narrow, specific domains.
Distinguishing those people and their relevant domains is really hard.
So, unless you have thoroughly vetted the forecasters and their track records, you are almost certainly no better than random guess. Very frequently worse.

30 year predictions about a substantial change in the structure of a society... LMAO.
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Re: The Future of Cars in Suburbia?

Post by stoptothink »

Broken Man 1999 wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:17 pm
Californiastate wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:32 am
MikeWillRetire wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:12 am I have a 25 year old son in L.A. and a 23 year old son in Boston. Neither one of them feels the need to buy a car. They live in areas where they can walk to various stores. On occasion they use Uber or rent a car for longer trips.
They are still young. I know people who were the same way in SF. The bohemian lifestyle finally grew old. The lifestyle was good when things were going well. When Covid and the riots hit they realized they just lived in a congested urban area. The suburbs didn't look so bad after all.
Easy to do if no children. There must be a rule stating that if there are multiple children engaged in extracurricular activities, the venue can never be the same, requiring parents to schlep them individually. At least that was our experience.

Some cities aren't very welcoming for pedestrians or bikers, though corrective efforts are making headway.

Broken Man 1999
My sister is 37, having lived in LA then Providence, RI, then London, then New York, now Salt Lake City and moving to Seattle this fall. She's never owned a car. If I didn't have kids I might not own one either, in fact I didn't for 3yrs in my late 20's - early 30's while living in Houston.
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Re: The Future of Cars in Suburbia?

Post by jackbeagle »

stoptothink wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:50 pm
Broken Man 1999 wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:17 pm
Californiastate wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:32 am
MikeWillRetire wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:12 am I have a 25 year old son in L.A. and a 23 year old son in Boston. Neither one of them feels the need to buy a car. They live in areas where they can walk to various stores. On occasion they use Uber or rent a car for longer trips.
They are still young. I know people who were the same way in SF. The bohemian lifestyle finally grew old. The lifestyle was good when things were going well. When Covid and the riots hit they realized they just lived in a congested urban area. The suburbs didn't look so bad after all.
Easy to do if no children. There must be a rule stating that if there are multiple children engaged in extracurricular activities, the venue can never be the same, requiring parents to schlep them individually. At least that was our experience.

Some cities aren't very welcoming for pedestrians or bikers, though corrective efforts are making headway.

Broken Man 1999
My sister is 37, having lived in LA then Providence, RI, then London, then New York, now Salt Lake City and moving to Seattle this fall. She's never owned a car. If I didn't have kids I might not own one either, in fact I didn't for 3yrs in my late 20's - early 30's while living in Houston.
Living in LA with no car should be a testament to how ideally located (read: expensive) the residences in question were. LA is often criticized as being a pedestrian unfriendly city. I suppose when you don't have to buy a car, insure it, fill it, etc. that frees up some budget for other things.
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Re: The Future of Cars in Suburbia?

Post by stoptothink »

jackbeagle wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:55 pm
stoptothink wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:50 pm
Broken Man 1999 wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:17 pm
Californiastate wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:32 am
MikeWillRetire wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:12 am I have a 25 year old son in L.A. and a 23 year old son in Boston. Neither one of them feels the need to buy a car. They live in areas where they can walk to various stores. On occasion they use Uber or rent a car for longer trips.
They are still young. I know people who were the same way in SF. The bohemian lifestyle finally grew old. The lifestyle was good when things were going well. When Covid and the riots hit they realized they just lived in a congested urban area. The suburbs didn't look so bad after all.
Easy to do if no children. There must be a rule stating that if there are multiple children engaged in extracurricular activities, the venue can never be the same, requiring parents to schlep them individually. At least that was our experience.

Some cities aren't very welcoming for pedestrians or bikers, though corrective efforts are making headway.

Broken Man 1999
My sister is 37, having lived in LA then Providence, RI, then London, then New York, now Salt Lake City and moving to Seattle this fall. She's never owned a car. If I didn't have kids I might not own one either, in fact I didn't for 3yrs in my late 20's - early 30's while living in Houston.
Living in LA with no car should be a testament to how ideally located (read: expensive) the residences in question were. LA is often criticized as being a pedestrian unfriendly city. I suppose when you don't have to buy a car, insure it, fill it, etc. that frees up some budget for other things.
We're from Boyle Heights. Grew up in LA, left at 18 for Providence (Brown)...So wasn't necessarily a car-less adult in LA, but she played sports and had a job in high school and never had a car (none of us 5 kids ever did).
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Re: The Future of Cars in Suburbia?

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