In light of the tech/meme bloodbath, how can Bogleheadian knowledge better reach the younger generation?

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Orangutan
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In light of the tech/meme bloodbath, how can Bogleheadian knowledge better reach the younger generation?

Post by Orangutan »

There has been an obvious reset of bloated valuations in speculative tech stocks, meme stocks, and digital currency. Many tech stocks are down over 70%, Peloton is down nearly 90%, rate hikes in play, persistent inflation, yada yada.


This has bothered me more than I thought it may. I don't have data, but I assume this has disproportionately affected younger investors, less financially educated investors, and investors of lower socioeconomic status.


I went on a tinder date last summer. As I worryingly glanced at the drink prices in Tribeca, she mentioned she was 100% invested in ARKK. Another friend heavily invested in Palantir Technologies and that gold coin. I myself, even got caught up and briefly held Roku. I have many stories like this of friends in my twenties.


What can be done? It seems like you have to go looking for Bogleheads knowledge, read the correct few books out of thousands, and avoid getting caught up in the mania. I posted a similar question months ago "Why aren't there more Bogleheads in the wild?", but this is more actionable and asking how to broadly reach the younger generation.


It was cool to have the "insider knowledge" of Bogleheads and just go through Nisiprius's posts when in doubt. But now, it sort of makes my stomach hurt to think of so many others who got hurt by the recent mania. It's sort of like getting into an elite company or college. Those who know, know. Most everyone else does not know the specific "secrets" to do this (trying not to breach any forum rules here). It's meritocratic, of course. But is it really? Of course, my assumption that people don't have readily accessible investing knowledge may be wrong.
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Re: In light of the tech/meme bloodbath, how can Bogleheadian knowledge better reach the younger generation?

Post by jebmke »

Over my nearly 40 years of investing, I have learned that the best thing to do is keep my mouth shut -- even if someone asks. I don't even discuss investing with family members other than my spouse.

They may or may not agree with me and it could end up in a useless debate.

If someone takes my "advice" and things don't work out the way they expect, they would blame me.

It can be hard to sit back and do nothing but I've found that is the best approach.

If an opening occurs -- if they ask -- I might sometimes tell people in very broad terms "what I do" but even then, I leave it at that.
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mervinj7
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Re: In light of the tech/meme bloodbath, how can Bogleheadian knowledge better reach the younger generation?

Post by mervinj7 »

jebmke wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:15 pm Over my nearly 40 years of investing, I have learned that the best thing to do is keep my mouth shut -- even if someone asks. I don't even discuss investing with family members other than my spouse.
+1 Though I still haven't fully learned my lesson.
livesoft
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Re: In light of the tech/meme bloodbath, how can Bogleheadian knowledge better reach the younger generation?

Post by livesoft »

The ideas expressed in this forum have reached the younger generation.

Every age group has a mix of investors, so I do not see where anything has changed much in my lifetime. Some people rushed to California gold areas back in 1848 and some people didn't.

Also I want to write that I don't see a bloodbath here. Just the normal stuff as always including people writing about bloodbaths. :twisted:
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Wings5
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Re: In light of the tech/meme bloodbath, how can Bogleheadian knowledge better reach the younger generation?

Post by Wings5 »

Previous posters are correct that it's often best to stay quiet. The stomach is the most important organ with investing, and it takes a gut punch for many people to learn more. It did for us. For people in a position where it's a proper topic and people are asking for input, Bill Bernstien's If You Can is a great book.

One interesting and broad overview of younger investors can be found here: https://personal.vanguard.com/pdf/how-a ... s-2020.pdf. It's pre-pandemic but still has some insights about younger investors, most of whom tilt heavily towards equities, although there's not a breakdown of people who hold single stocks. Vanguard points out that "there is a notable [millenial] group, at least a quarter of millennial investors, who have adopted cautious portfolios."
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UnLearnYourself
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Re: In light of the tech/meme bloodbath, how can Bogleheadian knowledge better reach the younger generation?

Post by UnLearnYourself »

Knowledge for some can only come through the form of experience. They will have to feel the pain, see others feel the pain, then seek an alternative approach - same lessons that many on these forums had to learn firsthand.
Booogle
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Re: In light of the tech/meme bloodbath, how can Bogleheadian knowledge better reach the younger generation?

Post by Booogle »

Its not about age.

People with a lot of money invest conservatively.

People with just a few thousand take more risks.
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Re: In light of the tech/meme bloodbath, how can Bogleheadian knowledge better reach the younger generation?

Post by dboeger1 »

For what it's worth, Boglehead investing practices have actually propagated quite successfully to all age groups via sensible index-based target date funds as default options in workplace retirement plans. Whether the philosophy behind those funds has propagated as successfully is debatable, but most people probably don't even know what they have in their 401k. I've heard lots of stories about people working for years, sometimes decades, before realizing their 401k contributions were just sitting in money market funds.
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burritoLover
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Re: In light of the tech/meme bloodbath, how can Bogleheadian knowledge better reach the younger generation?

Post by burritoLover »

S&P 500 at this instant is at about what it was in Oct 2021. Not exactly a bloodbath in the overall market. Sure, some tech names have got absolutely killed but they were in the stratosphere to begin with.

The best lesson for anyone is to lose a bunch of money in the market. They won't listen to you when they are making money.
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simplesimon
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Re: In light of the tech/meme bloodbath, how can Bogleheadian knowledge better reach the younger generation?

Post by simplesimon »

I talk about Bogleheads and the index investing approach whenever I have a conversation with someone about investing. When they talk about their approach I'll ask about why they do what they do. Very rarely do I ever get asked why *I* do what I do.
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SimpleGift
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Re: In light of the tech/meme bloodbath, how can Bogleheadian knowledge better reach the younger generation?

Post by SimpleGift »

UnLearnYourself wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:09 pm Knowledge for some can only come through the form of experience. They will have to feel the pain, see others feel the pain, then seek an alternative approach - same lessons that many on these forums had to learn firsthand.
Exactly right. And if they learn the lessons and feel the pain while they are in their twenties, they still have time to course correct and get onto the right path, without significant harm to their long-term financial futures.
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Re: In light of the tech/meme bloodbath, how can Bogleheadian knowledge better reach the younger generation?

Post by ApeAttack »

There are all sorts of things I see people doing wrong in life. Too much sugar in their diet. Spending money on luxuries they could barely afford, etc. I have a few habits that I'm sure others would find foolish or stupid.

I try to keep my opinions to myself unless asked.
Last edited by ApeAttack on Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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SanAntionetta
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Re: In light of the tech/meme bloodbath, how can Bogleheadian knowledge better reach the younger generation?

Post by SanAntionetta »

Don't you remember being young and invincible and knowing more than "old" people? Maybe they will be right and crypto will take over the entire financial world and Elon Musk will run Skynet. In the meantime in my experience you have to feel a little bit of pain yourself before you trust the older generation.

+1 for MYOB - the only thing I have said to a young family member is to please diversify and hold <10% in crypto, which he was to his credit receptive to.
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burritoLover
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Re: In light of the tech/meme bloodbath, how can Bogleheadian knowledge better reach the younger generation?

Post by burritoLover »

really not feeling a lot of sympathy - how many times were we told "you're too old and just don't get it".
Kbg
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Re: In light of the tech/meme bloodbath, how can Bogleheadian knowledge better reach the younger generation?

Post by Kbg »

I strongly disagree about keeping silent. Folks often get burned hard early in their investing years…if this place has been helpful, and it does generally provide good advice, share it in a non-gloating way. You may do a huge favor.
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Re: In light of the tech/meme bloodbath, how can Bogleheadian knowledge better reach the younger generation?

Post by canadianbacon »

Some people can learn about something by reading or watching videos and apply it.

Some people need to learn by experience.

I've done a mix of both. I look at some of my past mistakes as tuition.
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Tamalak
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Re: In light of the tech/meme bloodbath, how can Bogleheadian knowledge better reach the younger generation?

Post by Tamalak »

Bogleheading has gone mainstream. /r/investing is populated mostly by young people, and while there is a lot of stock picking, there's also a lot of support for "VTSAX and chill".

I agree with another poster on this thread that people who are "100% in ARKK" or the like are probably tossing only a few thousand around.

I don't ever give unsolicited advice about investing. At most I describe what I do and why I do it without judging other approaches.
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Re: In light of the tech/meme bloodbath, how can Bogleheadian knowledge better reach the younger generation?

Post by secondopinion »

jebmke wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:15 pm Over my nearly 40 years of investing, I have learned that the best thing to do is keep my mouth shut -- even if someone asks.
Most people love confirmation; it is hard to tell them anything against that. That does not stop me from telling them anyway.
Passive investing: not about making big bucks but making profits. Active investing: not about beating the market but meeting goals. Speculation: not about timing the market but taking profitable risks.
SilverSmurfer
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Re: In light of the tech/meme bloodbath, how can Bogleheadian knowledge better reach the younger generation?

Post by SilverSmurfer »

I dunno, we need the "other side" of the trade people. If everyone was as frugal as me (and wanted to FIRE), the economy wouldn't expand like it does, also.

The bell-shaped curve of consumers and investors is necessary, IMO.
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Re: In light of the tech/meme bloodbath, how can Bogleheadian knowledge better reach the younger generation?

Post by jebmke »

secondopinion wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:39 pm
jebmke wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:15 pm Over my nearly 40 years of investing, I have learned that the best thing to do is keep my mouth shut -- even if someone asks.
Most people love confirmation; it is hard to tell them anything against that. That does not stop me from telling them anyway.
yes; they usually have an anecdote that proves you wrong. Nobody who has been burned by their own strategy will talk about it so there is an adverse selection process that goes on as well.

tbf, investing almost never comes up in conversations and it rarely came up in my working days. People seemed to have more interesting things to talk about, I guess.
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dbr
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Re: In light of the tech/meme bloodbath, how can Bogleheadian knowledge better reach the younger generation?

Post by dbr »

There is an interesting show from Danish TV called Seaside Hotel. The story line includes two of the guests jumping in on American shares in 1929. One investor is ashamed in front of his wife that he sold early and only made a small profit. The other investor is giddy with success until the newspaper for 10/25/1929 is delivered. Part of the plot is that the broker of the second man has been desperately trying to reach him but he is on holiday at the Seaside Hotel and is not taking calls. The investor who sold sooner is older and the other guy is kind of an inflated ego type.
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Re: In light of the tech/meme bloodbath, how can Bogleheadian knowledge better reach the younger generation?

Post by Rus In Urbe »

Yep. If someone asks sincerely, I point them toward some good books and this site. If they take it up and invest wisely, then great, but I can't help more than that.

Why the "younger generation" hasn't got the message----because they are getting most of their information off social media, and we all know what that means.

And then, as your stash increases and you begin to accumulate more than you need, you practice
STEALTH WEALTH
And keep your mouth shut.

Really, it's the only way to keep your sanity, as well as friendships and family dynamics clear.

Good luck..... :beer
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TheDoctor91
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Re: In light of the tech/meme bloodbath, how can Bogleheadian knowledge better reach the younger generation?

Post by TheDoctor91 »

TBH a lot of the advice on reddit on most subreddits was to DCA in to before the GME craze but then, and especially after GME, most people retorted that’s for boomers and put down for being boomers.

Hubris will always be a characteristic of young investors IMO.
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Re: In light of the tech/meme bloodbath, how can Bogleheadian knowledge better reach the younger generation?

Post by Volando »

I’m in my 30s and only came to bogleheads through Bogles books. Whenever I try to talk to people my age or younger about BH investing they seem pretty disinterested. They’re usually more interested in meme stocks or crypto. Some are too scared to start. I think I’ve managed to convince only one person when they asked for info. :D. On the other hand there seem to be a lot of people on Reddit pointing people towards BHs so I’m sure there are at least some younger people learning about it.
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Re: In light of the tech/meme bloodbath, how can Bogleheadian knowledge better reach the younger generation?

Post by secondopinion »

jebmke wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:51 pm
secondopinion wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:39 pm
jebmke wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:15 pm Over my nearly 40 years of investing, I have learned that the best thing to do is keep my mouth shut -- even if someone asks.
Most people love confirmation; it is hard to tell them anything against that. That does not stop me from telling them anyway.
yes; they usually have an anecdote that proves you wrong. Nobody who has been burned by their own strategy will talk about it so there is an adverse selection process that goes on as well.

tbf, investing almost never comes up in conversations and it rarely came up in my working days. People seemed to have more interesting things to talk about, I guess.
I will talk about my burns and filled wallets. Very often, it leaves them uneasy about my speculations and speculations in general. I guess I am different than most people since I will be honest about my activities.

And yes, it is rare to talk about investing these days; but I know it is even rarer to talk about my hobbies outside of investing.
Passive investing: not about making big bucks but making profits. Active investing: not about beating the market but meeting goals. Speculation: not about timing the market but taking profitable risks.
secondopinion
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Re: In light of the tech/meme bloodbath, how can Bogleheadian knowledge better reach the younger generation?

Post by secondopinion »

Rus In Urbe wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:58 pm Yep. If someone asks sincerely, I point them toward some good books and this site. If they take it up and invest wisely, then great, but I can't help more than that.

Why the "younger generation" hasn't got the message----because they are getting most of their information off social media, and we all know what that means.

And then, as your stash increases and you begin to accumulate more than you need, you practice
STEALTH WEALTH
And keep your mouth shut.

Really, it's the only way to keep your sanity, as well as friendships and family dynamics clear.

Good luck..... :beer
The root problem is social media then, not age. I never use it and I seem to be better off.

I am part of that "younger generation" pretty much.
Passive investing: not about making big bucks but making profits. Active investing: not about beating the market but meeting goals. Speculation: not about timing the market but taking profitable risks.
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Re: In light of the tech/meme bloodbath, how can Bogleheadian knowledge better reach the younger generation?

Post by willthrill81 »

jebmke wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:15 pm Over my nearly 40 years of investing, I have learned that the best thing to do is keep my mouth shut -- even if someone asks. I don't even discuss investing with family members other than my spouse.
I've largely learned the hard way to do the same, though I am teaching an informal class right now about personal finance where students come and go when they will. I feel at much greater liberty to speak to them about the topic than others.
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Re: In light of the tech/meme bloodbath, how can Bogleheadian knowledge better reach the younger generation?

Post by Hofburg43 »

willthrill81 wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 2:19 pm
jebmke wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:15 pm Over my nearly 40 years of investing, I have learned that the best thing to do is keep my mouth shut -- even if someone asks. I don't even discuss investing with family members other than my spouse.
I've largely learned the hard way to do the same, though I am teaching an informal class right now about personal finance where students come and go when they will. I feel at much greater liberty to speak to them about the topic than others.
I never give explicit advice to anyone, ever. One, I might be wrong, often have been and don't want to give anyone a bum steer.

Two, even if the advice is sound, most people in this day and age resent it or don't bother, so it is a waste of time.

If someone really shows interest in something I know something about, I am happy to give them the opportunity to observe what I do, what I read and how I conduct myself.
My lifetime requirement for investment advice was satisfied upon reading Jack Bogle write that most people need only a low cost S&P 500 Index fund.
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Re: In light of the tech/meme bloodbath, how can Bogleheadian knowledge better reach the younger generation?

Post by maulermark »

I'm struggling with this right now with my own 20-something kids. They are great savers, but have been reluctant to invest that money. Plus - they have *zero* interest in the topic.

They seem to view it as a type of "gambling" inherent with high risk and are worried about being able to access the money later in life for something such as buying a home.

With inflation running rampant and the stock market tanking, I'm pulling my hair out as this is an excellent time for them to get started.

I will try to remain patient and keep plugging away, but it has not been easy...
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Re: In light of the tech/meme bloodbath, how can Bogleheadian knowledge better reach the younger generation?

Post by AlphaLess »

jebmke wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:15 pm Over my nearly 40 years of investing, I have learned that the best thing to do is keep my mouth shut -- even if someone asks. I don't even discuss investing with family members other than my spouse.
^^^
is the best advice of them all.

There is no need for Bogleheadian knowledge to reach the younger generation.

Those who seek advice and knowledge will find it.
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Re: In light of the tech/meme bloodbath, how can Bogleheadian knowledge better reach the younger generation?

Post by AlphaLess »

maulermark wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 2:52 pm I'm struggling with this right now with my own 20-something kids. They are great savers, but have been reluctant to invest that money. Plus - they have *zero* interest in the topic.

They seem to view it as a type of "gambling" inherent with high risk and are worried about being able to access the money later in life for something such as buying a home.

With inflation running rampant and the stock market tanking, I'm pulling my hair out as this is an excellent time for them to get started.

I will try to remain patient and keep plugging away, but it has not been easy...
Instead of pulling your hair, may I present you the Serenity Prayer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serenity_Prayer
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Re: In light of the tech/meme bloodbath, how can Bogleheadian knowledge better reach the younger generation?

Post by AlphaLess »

SanAntionetta wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:28 pm Don't you remember being young and invincible and knowing more than "old" people? Maybe they will be right and crypto will take over the entire financial world and Elon Musk will run Skynet. In the meantime in my experience you have to feel a little bit of pain yourself before you trust the older generation.

+1 for MYOB - the only thing I have said to a young family member is to please diversify and hold <10% in crypto, which he was to his credit receptive to.
IMO, this has nothing to do with young and old.
I started on this when I was young.

It has to do with:
- admitting that you don't know it all,
- asking good questions,
- listening,
- willing to try,
- willing to make (small) mistakes,
- asking more questions,
- listening more,
- rinse-and-repeating.

The person who asks the most questions wins.
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H-Town
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Re: In light of the tech/meme bloodbath, how can Bogleheadian knowledge better reach the younger generation?

Post by H-Town »

jebmke wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:15 pm Over my nearly 40 years of investing, I have learned that the best thing to do is keep my mouth shut -- even if someone asks. I don't even discuss investing with family members other than my spouse.

They may or may not agree with me and it could end up in a useless debate.

If someone takes my "advice" and things don't work out the way they expect, they would blame me.

It can be hard to sit back and do nothing but I've found that is the best approach.

If an opening occurs -- if they ask -- I might sometimes tell people in very broad terms "what I do" but even then, I leave it at that.
+1

OP: people will learn their lessons on their own. Unless they ask your advice, there is no need to worry about their situations.
Time is the ultimate currency.
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Re: In light of the tech/meme bloodbath, how can Bogleheadian knowledge better reach the younger generation?

Post by dboeger1 »

One thing I forgot to mention in my previous comment is that while younger people are probably more prone to taking silly risks as a group, it really is ultimately an individual thing. Among my coworkers, almost the exact opposite is true. The younger people on my team are all long-term buy-and-hold index investors. The people close to retirement, oddly enough, talk constantly about their big bets on GME, Bitcoin, timing jumps in and out of the market, using leverage, etc. I'm really not sure why that is, and wouldn't extrapolate that to all investors, but I guess anybody can get swept up in trying to find a free lunch.
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Re: In light of the tech/meme bloodbath, how can Bogleheadian knowledge better reach the younger generation?

Post by drk »

I don't understand those who advise not offering advice. I keep the Getting Started wiki page bookmarked and send it to anyone who asks me about investing. If they ask for more, I recommend Charley Ellis's book Winning the Loser's Game and Malkiel's Random Walk Down Wall Street. If they ask for something more current, I recommend the Rational Reminder podcast. If they ask for my opinion about [insert fad], I say that I'm not smart enough to pick individual investments because I'm a glorified primate and recommend Finance for Normal People.

Most people take the first off-ramp and come back to confirm that opening a brokerage account at Vanguard to buy VTSAX or VTWAX is a good option. Some need to read one of the books or listen to Ben Felix for it to sink in, then check in to talk about their plans and maybe even discuss theory (this is where I introduce Lifecycle Investing). A few pity me for accepting the average ("have fun staying poor" and all that), then run off to do their own thing. I don't mind that last group because I think it's normal/healthy for twenty-somethings with solid human capital to take some lumps, and I'm happy to go through the tree again when they come back later exhausted from trying to manage unprofitable bets.
A useful razor: anyone asking about speculative strategies on Bogleheads.org has no business using them.
UpperNwGuy
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Re: In light of the tech/meme bloodbath, how can Bogleheadian knowledge better reach the younger generation?

Post by UpperNwGuy »

One of my three millennial children sent me a text this morning warning me not to look at the stock market. I told her I already had. She asked if today would be a good day to buy. I told her it would be an even better day to sit back and just watch. She thanked me a few minutes ago after the market had closed quite differently from its morning antics.
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Re: In light of the tech/meme bloodbath, how can Bogleheadian knowledge better reach the younger generation?

Post by GAAP »

There's an old truism that says that life will give you lessons to learn, and you will continue to repeat the lesson until you do learn it. Until someone learns that lesson, the advice to keep your mouth shut is another saying "don't waste your time until they've learned, they won't be listening".

One of the key advantages to being younger is the time remaining to make corrections after unlearned lessons. Hopefully, once that lesson has been learned, they will search out information on how to make corrections and avoid learning some of the other lessons the hard way.
“Adapt what is useful, reject what is useless, and add what is specifically your own.” ― Bruce Lee
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Re: In light of the tech/meme bloodbath, how can Bogleheadian knowledge better reach the younger generation?

Post by KlangFool »

maulermark wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 2:52 pm I'm struggling with this right now with my own 20-something kids. They are great savers, but have been reluctant to invest that money. Plus - they have *zero* interest in the topic.

They seem to view it as a type of "gambling" inherent with high risk and are worried about being able to access the money later in life for something such as buying a home.

With inflation running rampant and the stock market tanking, I'm pulling my hair out as this is an excellent time for them to get started.

I will try to remain patient and keep plugging away, but it has not been easy...
maulermark,

I invested my kids' saving in the Vanguard Life Strategy Fund in my taxable account. When they are old enough, I help them to open their own Vanguard account and invest in the Vanguard Life Strategy Fund. They had seen the money grown with no effort with the Vanguard Life Strategy fund. So, they just invest their money in the Vanguard Life Strategy Fund.

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Re: In light of the tech/meme bloodbath, how can Bogleheadian knowledge better reach the younger generation?

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. »

UpperNwGuy wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 3:35 pm One of my three millennial children sent me a text this morning warning me not to look at the stock market. I told her I already had. She asked if today would be a good day to buy. I told her it would be an even better day to sit back and just watch. She thanked me a few minutes ago after the market had closed quite differently from its morning antics.
If she had money to invest but didn't what is she waiting for? Isn't she engaging in market timing even when not buying?

Q: when should I buy?
A: when you have the money.

Q: when should I sell?
A: when you need the money.
It's hard to accept the truth when the lies were exactly what you wanted to hear. Investing is simple, but not easy. Buy, hold & rebalance low cost index funds & manage taxable events. Asking Portfolio Questions | Wiki
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markjk
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Re: In light of the tech/meme bloodbath, how can Bogleheadian knowledge better reach the younger generation?

Post by markjk »

OP, just keep sharing the knowledge and the website. Use examples and be an advocate, but don't force it. If people want to listen, then there is nothing wrong with sharing. If they don't want to listen, no need to engage.

Experience is the best teacher and it looks like there are some learnings happening in the markets this year. It's a great time to share information that might help point people in a better long term direction. I personally learned a ton from the 2007 - 2008 implosion and had a great co-worker share some information with me at that time. Without that experience and the information sharing from that co-worker, not sure where I'd be from an investing standpoint. I try to pay it forward as much as I can, again, without trying to soap box or force it.
UpperNwGuy
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Re: In light of the tech/meme bloodbath, how can Bogleheadian knowledge better reach the younger generation?

Post by UpperNwGuy »

arcticpineapplecorp. wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 3:50 pm
UpperNwGuy wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 3:35 pm One of my three millennial children sent me a text this morning warning me not to look at the stock market. I told her I already had. She asked if today would be a good day to buy. I told her it would be an even better day to sit back and just watch. She thanked me a few minutes ago after the market had closed quite differently from its morning antics.
If she had money to invest but didn't what is she waiting for? Isn't she engaging in market timing even when not buying?

Q: when should I buy?
A: when you have the money.

Q: when should I sell?
A: when you need the money.
She has no money at the moment. She was asking if I was planning to buy.

She's come a long way in our understanding of investing. A few years ago she didn't understand that down markets were buying opportunities.
GoldenFinch
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Re: In light of the tech/meme bloodbath, how can Bogleheadian knowledge better reach the younger generation?

Post by GoldenFinch »

Some kids learn the hard way (from personal experience) and some learn from others. It’s just the way it is. People recover from mistakes and young people have more time to recover. Generally, it’s pretty hard to disperse Bolgleheadism unless someone is genuinely interested in how you invest and wants to understand your strategy.
shess
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Re: In light of the tech/meme bloodbath, how can Bogleheadian knowledge better reach the younger generation?

Post by shess »

Orangutan wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:08 pm What can be done? It seems like you have to go looking for Bogleheads knowledge, read the correct few books out of thousands, and avoid getting caught up in the mania. I posted a similar question months ago "Why aren't there more Bogleheads in the wild?", but this is more actionable and asking how to broadly reach the younger generation.

It was cool to have the "insider knowledge" of Bogleheads and just go through Nisiprius's posts when in doubt. But now, it sort of makes my stomach hurt to think of so many others who got hurt by the recent mania. It's sort of like getting into an elite company or college. Those who know, know. Most everyone else does not know the specific "secrets" to do this (trying not to breach any forum rules here). It's meritocratic, of course. But is it really? Of course, my assumption that people don't have readily accessible investing knowledge may be wrong.
People learn at their own pace. Fortunately for younger people, they generally have fewer assets, so these kinds of things are going to hurt, possibly hurt A LOT, but they also probably mostly aren't going to be able to really destroy their long-term potential. So they'll have another chance to learn the lesson and recover.

I know for myself, I knew everything I needed to know for a solid decade before I actually committed to my current approach (vaguely 3-fund). My mind was not changed by any new information, in fact if anyone had asked me for investing advice, I'd have told them to start with a 3-fund indexed approach, and then let it ride a bit to get a sense of things before messing with it further. Meanwhile, I was all over the place depending on the interesting-approach-of-the-week I found on some forum (the HFEA thread here is a real trial for me, like staring down a bowl of M&Ms). My mind was changed by coming into a bit of a windfall, and facing up to the question of estate planning. I realized that my reactive approach had left me with a complicated portfolio which I could not justify, and if I died my estate's executor would hate me. That caused me to ask myself why I was following all of these super-smart people (Bernstein, Bogle, etc), but I wasn't actually taking the advice they were giving me? Somehow, thinking about passing this windfall forward to the next generation got me over the top into thinking about actually managing my portfolio rather than reacting to the market news, and from there a new set of goals just fell into place. Then 2008 happened, and it was terrifying, but I directed all that terror into working the process, and as a result was able to use the losses to radically simplify my portfolio while also diversifying away somewhat from a concentrated position.
maulermark
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Re: In light of the tech/meme bloodbath, how can Bogleheadian knowledge better reach the younger generation?

Post by maulermark »

KlangFool wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 3:46 pm
maulermark,

I invested my kids' saving in the Vanguard Life Strategy Fund in my taxable account. When they are old enough, I help them to open their own Vanguard account and invest in the Vanguard Life Strategy Fund. They had seen the money grown with no effort with the Vanguard Life Strategy fund. So, they just invest their money in the Vanguard Life Strategy Fund.

KlangFool
I could get them to open a brokerage account and help them configure automatic funding from their bank accounts, but it would be my idea instead of theirs. This is not what I want. They already know that debt is bad so they've paid off car loans and are working to reduce their student loan balances as fast as they can. They pay off any credit card bills monthly as well.

I'm more interested in educating them about their money working FOR them rather than AGAINST them. For instance, while their savings accounts are gathering their .1% interest, inflation is growing at 6+% and they've just lost 5.9% of the value of their money.

I think this generation has been bombarded with media in their faces constantly promoting the student loan crisis, stock market crashes, crypto crashes, and doomsday stories. It's really warped their sense of what is normal and expected. The trick is to get them to realize that it isn't all chaos and doom & gloom out there.
H-Town
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Re: In light of the tech/meme bloodbath, how can Bogleheadian knowledge better reach the younger generation?

Post by H-Town »

drk wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 3:26 pm I don't understand those who advise not offering advice. I keep the Getting Started wiki page bookmarked and send it to anyone who asks me about investing. If they ask for more, I recommend Charley Ellis's book Winning the Loser's Game and Malkiel's Random Walk Down Wall Street. If they ask for something more current, I recommend the Rational Reminder podcast. If they ask for my opinion about [insert fad], I say that I'm not smart enough to pick individual investments because I'm a glorified primate and recommend Finance for Normal People.

Most people take the first off-ramp and come back to confirm that opening a brokerage account at Vanguard to buy VTSAX or VTWAX is a good option. Some need to read one of the books or listen to Ben Felix for it to sink in, then check in to talk about their plans and maybe even discuss theory (this is where I introduce Lifecycle Investing). A few pity me for accepting the average ("have fun staying poor" and all that), then run off to do their own thing. I don't mind that last group because I think it's normal/healthy for twenty-somethings with solid human capital to take some lumps, and I'm happy to go through the tree again when they come back later exhausted from trying to manage unprofitable bets.
I think there is a difference between unsolicited financial advice and offering advice when being asked.

Just imagine a scenario in that you mind your own business in your work cafeteria, and some young gun came over and told you: "you know what? your 3 fund portfolio is old news. put everything you have and take out your home equity and buy bitcoin. trust me!"
Time is the ultimate currency.
invest2bfree
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Re: In light of the tech/meme bloodbath, how can Bogleheadian knowledge better reach the younger generation?

Post by invest2bfree »

Orangutan wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:08 pm There has been an obvious reset of bloated valuations in speculative tech stocks, meme stocks, and digital currency. Many tech stocks are down over 70%, Peloton is down nearly 90%, rate hikes in play, persistent inflation, yada yada.


This has bothered me more than I thought it may. I don't have data, but I assume this has disproportionately affected younger investors, less financially educated investors, and investors of lower socioeconomic status.


I went on a tinder date last summer. As I worryingly glanced at the drink prices in Tribeca, she mentioned she was 100% invested in ARKK. Another friend heavily invested in Palantir Technologies and that gold coin. I myself, even got caught up and briefly held Roku. I have many stories like this of friends in my twenties.


What can be done? It seems like you have to go looking for Bogleheads knowledge, read the correct few books out of thousands, and avoid getting caught up in the mania. I posted a similar question months ago "Why aren't there more Bogleheads in the wild?", but this is more actionable and asking how to broadly reach the younger generation.


It was cool to have the "insider knowledge" of Bogleheads and just go through Nisiprius's posts when in doubt. But now, it sort of makes my stomach hurt to think of so many others who got hurt by the recent mania. It's sort of like getting into an elite company or college. Those who know, know. Most everyone else does not know the specific "secrets" to do this (trying not to breach any forum rules here). It's meritocratic, of course. But is it really? Of course, my assumption that people don't have readily accessible investing knowledge may be wrong.
Markets extract tuition from everyone, if you are lucky you pay the tuition when you are young.

I have seen older folks pay tuition which is very sad. My colleagues husband lost his job in 2008 and he liquidated his 401k at the bottom.

There is no amount knowledge which can prevent people from engaging in this type behavior.
36% (IRA) - Individual LT Corporate Bonds , 33%(taxable) - schy, 33%(taxable) - SCHD Dividend Growth
drk
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Re: In light of the tech/meme bloodbath, how can Bogleheadian knowledge better reach the younger generation?

Post by drk »

H-Town wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:13 pm I think there is a difference between unsolicited financial advice and offering advice when being asked.

Just imagine a scenario in that you mind your own business in your work cafeteria, and some young gun came over and told you: "you know what? your 3 fund portfolio is old news. put everything you have and take out your home equity and buy bitcoin. trust me!"
I agree that it would be pointless to argue with a person who approached me like that. Some of the commenters above specifically said that they do not offer advice even when asked, though.
A useful razor: anyone asking about speculative strategies on Bogleheads.org has no business using them.
alfaspider
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Re: In light of the tech/meme bloodbath, how can Bogleheadian knowledge better reach the younger generation?

Post by alfaspider »

secondopinion wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 2:06 pm
Rus In Urbe wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:58 pm Yep. If someone asks sincerely, I point them toward some good books and this site. If they take it up and invest wisely, then great, but I can't help more than that.

Why the "younger generation" hasn't got the message----because they are getting most of their information off social media, and we all know what that means.

And then, as your stash increases and you begin to accumulate more than you need, you practice
STEALTH WEALTH
And keep your mouth shut.

Really, it's the only way to keep your sanity, as well as friendships and family dynamics clear.

Good luck..... :beer
The root problem is social media then, not age. I never use it and I seem to be better off.

I am part of that "younger generation" pretty much.
I've seen bogglehead-style advice on social media and shady get rick quick schemes on social media. The medium does not itself determine the message.

I do think there's some truth to the idea that people who don't have a lot of money to invest (and don't anticipate having a lot of money any time soon) are more prone to wild risk taking. If you are in a position to put $100k into the market every year, then a 10% annual return sounds pretty good. You are going to have a million bucks in under 10 years.

If your only source of investible funds is your $2k tax return every year, it's much more tempting delude yourself into thinking the latest memestock is going to turn that into 1,000% gains, because those 10% gains are only going to look meaningful at multi-decade timescales if you aren't investing an appreciable fraction of your income. If you want that million bucks, this decade, you need outsized returns. Likewise, it's generally not the wealthy who buy lottery tickets.
sureshoe
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Re: In light of the tech/meme bloodbath, how can Bogleheadian knowledge better reach the younger generation?

Post by sureshoe »

mervinj7 wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:17 pm
jebmke wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:15 pm Over my nearly 40 years of investing, I have learned that the best thing to do is keep my mouth shut -- even if someone asks. I don't even discuss investing with family members other than my spouse.
+1 Though I still haven't fully learned my lesson.
I have found a great joy in simply pretending to be completely financially illiterate. When people talk stocks or money in my social circles or family, I simply don't contribute. If anyone asks directly, I just say, "I've always just put my money in simple things." and not much else.

As people get to know me, on occasion a nephew or friend will ask "so what are you doing about XYZ or what should I do?" I then tell them what I'm doing or would do, but say "I'd go read this first if I were you. Don't do anything with your money based on my recommendations."

My mom for example - she's on her own. I let her bank trust guy do the work. She's probably losing some money, but if things are a disaster, it ain't my fault.
alfaspider
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Re: In light of the tech/meme bloodbath, how can Bogleheadian knowledge better reach the younger generation?

Post by alfaspider »

sureshoe wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:34 pm
mervinj7 wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:17 pm
jebmke wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:15 pm Over my nearly 40 years of investing, I have learned that the best thing to do is keep my mouth shut -- even if someone asks. I don't even discuss investing with family members other than my spouse.
+1 Though I still haven't fully learned my lesson.
I have found a great joy in simply pretending to be completely financially illiterate. When people talk stocks or money in my social circles or family, I simply don't contribute. If anyone asks directly, I just say, "I've always just put my money in simple things." and not much else.

As people get to know me, on occasion a nephew or friend will ask "so what are you doing about XYZ or what should I do?" I then tell them what I'm doing or would do, but say "I'd go read this first if I were you. Don't do anything with your money based on my recommendations."

My mom for example - she's on her own. I let her bank trust guy do the work. She's probably losing some money, but if things are a disaster, it ain't my fault.
If people ask, I'm more than happy to advise, but certainly wouldn't give unsolicited advice or try to sell someone on the BH philosophy who wasn't already asking. Like you, I don't want to be blamed for someone's investment losses- certainly not a friend or family member's. Even if a financial advisor or random memestock they were investing in would have been a far worse drop than the S&P 500, you are still going to be blamed when the S&P drops- even if you explained the long time horizon and all that.
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