So what comes after "Enough"

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dh
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by Yesterdaysnews »

Interesting question. I never feel secure with the size of my portfolio. Not in the sense that I feel like selling or going conservative, but rather that the numbers are fairly abstract to me as I feel tomorrow it could be cut in half or worse. In the last two years my portfolio has gone up more that I could believe in a short time.... so in my mind it can easily go the other direction as well.
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by ray.james »

Jazztonight wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:10 pm My own activities involve health maintenance and mental, physical, and cultural enrichment (foreign language study and music performance). That's what having "enough" is all about, to me. YMMV.
Wise words, that is something I am trying to turn my wheels to. I am not at enough but the early seeds have started building the weath. I can see the end goal in 10 years. So I want to focus my energy on kids and health. I am finally coming full circle to understand - "Health is Wealth"
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by AerialWombat »

Now that I have enough, the challenge is figuring out what to do every day — which gives me too much time to question whether it was truly enough.
This post is a work of fiction. Any similarity to real financial advice is purely coincidental.
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by Mel Lindauer »

AerialWombat wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 9:48 pm Now that I have enough, the challenge is figuring out what to do every day — which gives me too much time to question whether it was truly enough.
That's how I first got involved with the Bogleheads movement. It was simply my way of doing something productive while giving back by helping others avoid all the mistakes I made in my early investing career.
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by winterfan »

I think we have enough, but I would like to help my kid out with grad school or housing, if necessary. Or possibly even grandchildren down the road. I'd like to give more to charities also. I'd also love a house with a water view. 8-)
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by Shallowpockets »

What comes after enough as related to the gains you note, is that now you can rest easy on the much feared 50% market drop that is so often thrown out here on BHs.
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by LatentStoic »

mike@jb wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:20 pm
fortunefavored wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:33 pm And not working or being involved in any way with megacorps is amazing. You forget how unnatural, artificial and evil the whole thing is when you're up to your neck in alligators all day every day.
When I read this post, I thought I had written it :sharebeer
Me too! :sharebeer
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by TheTimeLord »

I appreciate all the perspectives and replies. I must admit it is a very different mix from what I expected and tells me the approach I have been pursuing is a definite outlier. Please keep them coming and thanks for sharing.
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by LadyGeek »

I removed an off-topic post. As a reminder, see: General Etiquette
At all times we must conduct ourselves in a respectful manner to other posters. Attacks on individuals, insults, name calling, trolling, baiting or other attempts to sow dissension are not acceptable.
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by goodenyou »

I have enough. I am trying to keep it that way.
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by 59Gibson »

AerialWombat wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 9:48 pm Now that I have enough, the challenge is figuring out what to do every day — which gives me too much time to question whether it was truly enough.
+1 This is an underappreciated risk with many in the FIRE brigade. Too much time on one's hand can introduce a multitude of issues..thinking too much, anxiety, worry etc
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by Randtor »

I realized after I retired 6 months ago that I no longer had a steady income. Scary! Now I had to depend solely on my investment portfolio. The hardest battle is convincing myself to adjust my 70/30 down to 50/50. It should be more about protection of assets rather than increasing our holdings with more risk.The best part is feeling no stress about money concerns. You can't get enough of that.
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by quantAndHold »

TheTimeLord wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:37 am I appreciate all the perspectives and replies. I must admit it is a very different mix from what I expected and tells me the approach I have been pursuing is a definite outlier. Please keep them coming and thanks for sharing.
Unfair. You can’t make a statement like that without explaining your perspective.
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by Lee_WSP »

AerialWombat wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 9:48 pm Now that I have enough, the challenge is figuring out what to do every day — which gives me too much time to question whether it was truly enough.
Agreed.

It’s like being unemployed, but without the stress of worrying about where the rent is coming from. Probably a bad analogy, but the closest I’ve personally experienced that’s remotely similar.

In all other stages of my life I’ve had stuff to do. So, I keep on working to stave off boredom.
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by Dandy »

I reached enough a bit ago when I took SS at age 70 and my income from pensions and SS almost equaled our normal expenses and RMDs were essentially not needed.

I trimmed my equity allocation a bit and decided not to reinvest taxable equity dividends to help keep equity allocations near/in target range (45-50%). Started gifting some "early inheritance" to my two children. Due to the nice run of equity investments my total investment is at a high.

I think for many? when you reach enough in retirement, asset preservation starts to become more important than growth.
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by fortunefavored »

59Gibson wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:53 am
AerialWombat wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 9:48 pm Now that I have enough, the challenge is figuring out what to do every day — which gives me too much time to question whether it was truly enough.
+1 This is an underappreciated risk with many in the FIRE brigade. Too much time on one's hand can introduce a multitude of issues..thinking too much, anxiety, worry etc
I'm only 1 year in and time is FLYING by, I could not be any busier. Work was worse, since it was often periods of frantic panic mixed with periods of boredom and uncertainty.

I'm always amazed anyone could be bored. My list of stuff to do just gets longer and I'm worried I won't have the time to get to everything!
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by EddyB »

fortunefavored wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 6:35 pm
02nz wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 6:31 pm
fortunefavored wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:33 pm I was on the cusp pre-covid.. the rallies pushed me quite past. so I dumped my career and moved to the sticks.

No change in investment plans, other than sitting on too much cash (although still part of my fixed income AA.)

And not working or being involved in any way with megacorps is amazing. You forget how unnatural, artificial and evil the whole thing is when you're up to your neck in alligators all day every day.
I'm only being half cheeky: Is "up to your neck in alligators all day every day" a reference to your Megacorp or post-Megacorp life? :happy
Ha ha, I meant during my megacorp days. You just don't see how bad it is when you're constantly working 60 hours/week running around like crazy.

Now I mostly ensure I walk the dog. :) He rarely demands ethically dubious decisions!
I am spending a year living in a proper city and I've found that my dog, who has only know a pastoral life before now, demands many ethically dubious decisions.... I've found that carrying a large bottle of water helps.
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by TheTimeLord »

quantAndHold wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:16 am
TheTimeLord wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:37 am I appreciate all the perspectives and replies. I must admit it is a very different mix from what I expected and tells me the approach I have been pursuing is a definite outlier. Please keep them coming and thanks for sharing.
Unfair. You can’t make a statement like that without explaining your perspective.
When I composed the question, noting the monster returns of the past 3 years, I had in my mind people who had reached somewhere around 150% or more of their enough number (minimum 125%). That may be who has been responding or maybe not, but I have been surprised to see few if any posters taking notably more risk. Now that may be because they were fairly aggressive positioned coming into reaching "Enough" so throttling back a bit is more normal. Myself, I was more of a bond tent followed by a rising glide path guy. I was on the conservative side going into the start of Covid, went very conservative when I heard early on Japan was considering postponing the Olympics and have become steadily more and more aggressively positioned since, but never super aggressive. As a result, I am well past what I had considered enough. So I am now in the position that people have more than enough find themselves, I have an ability to take risk, but not a need to take risk. Personally, I have been wrestling for a while with which fork in the road to take and I have been leaning toward I have the ability to take risk so let's do it and see where this goes. Taking that fork in the road seems to be an outlier from how I am reading the posting. The OP isn't about finding a right or wrong answer it is about helping me wrap my head around how I want to proceed. Hopefully, I have managed to explain my perspective.
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by RadAudit »

What came after enough for me was a worldwide public health crisis that somewhat limited my possibilities of spending any of the excess.
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by quantAndHold »

TheTimeLord wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:48 am
quantAndHold wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:16 am
TheTimeLord wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:37 am I appreciate all the perspectives and replies. I must admit it is a very different mix from what I expected and tells me the approach I have been pursuing is a definite outlier. Please keep them coming and thanks for sharing.
Unfair. You can’t make a statement like that without explaining your perspective.
When I composed the question, noting the monster returns of the past 3 years, I had in my mind people who had reached somewhere around 150% or more of their enough number (minimum 125%). That may be who has been responding or maybe not, but I have been surprised to see few if any posters taking notably more risk. Now that may be because they were fairly aggressive positioned coming into reaching "Enough" so throttling back a bit is more normal. Myself, I was more of a bond tent followed by a rising glide path guy. I was on the conservative side going into the start of Covid, went very conservative when I heard early on Japan was considering postponing the Olympics and have become steadily more and more aggressively positioned since, but never super aggressive. As a result, I am well past what I had considered enough. So I am now in the position that people have more than enough find themselves, I have an ability to take risk, but not a need to take risk. Personally, I have been wrestling for a while with which fork in the road to take and I have been leaning toward I have the ability to take risk so let's do it and see where this goes. Taking that fork in the road seems to be an outlier from how I am reading the posting. The OP isn't about finding a right or wrong answer it is about helping me wrap my head around how I want to proceed. Hopefully, I have managed to explain my perspective.
Okay, that makes sense. I think for me, it seems like we’re in this extended bull market that’s running on 0% interest rates, rather than any fundamental growth of the economy. I may have a 2% withdrawal rate right now, but at 58, I have a lot of years left to be retired, and a lot of sequence of returns risk to still be worried about. I also already have a 70/30 AA, despite being retired long enough that it wouldn’t really be feasible to go back to work if things went south. So it doesn’t feel like a time to take more risk. Maybe in five more years it will.
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by TheTimeLord »

quantAndHold wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:23 am
TheTimeLord wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:48 am
quantAndHold wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:16 am
TheTimeLord wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:37 am I appreciate all the perspectives and replies. I must admit it is a very different mix from what I expected and tells me the approach I have been pursuing is a definite outlier. Please keep them coming and thanks for sharing.
Unfair. You can’t make a statement like that without explaining your perspective.
When I composed the question, noting the monster returns of the past 3 years, I had in my mind people who had reached somewhere around 150% or more of their enough number (minimum 125%). That may be who has been responding or maybe not, but I have been surprised to see few if any posters taking notably more risk. Now that may be because they were fairly aggressive positioned coming into reaching "Enough" so throttling back a bit is more normal. Myself, I was more of a bond tent followed by a rising glide path guy. I was on the conservative side going into the start of Covid, went very conservative when I heard early on Japan was considering postponing the Olympics and have become steadily more and more aggressively positioned since, but never super aggressive. As a result, I am well past what I had considered enough. So I am now in the position that people have more than enough find themselves, I have an ability to take risk, but not a need to take risk. Personally, I have been wrestling for a while with which fork in the road to take and I have been leaning toward I have the ability to take risk so let's do it and see where this goes. Taking that fork in the road seems to be an outlier from how I am reading the posting. The OP isn't about finding a right or wrong answer it is about helping me wrap my head around how I want to proceed. Hopefully, I have managed to explain my perspective.
Okay, that makes sense. I think for me, it seems like we’re in this extended bull market that’s running on 0% interest rates, rather than any fundamental growth of the economy. I may have a 2% withdrawal rate right now, but at 58, I have a lot of years left to be retired, and a lot of sequence of returns risk to still be worried about. I also already have a 70/30 AA, despite being retired long enough that it wouldn’t really be feasible to go back to work if things went south. So it doesn’t feel like a time to take more risk. Maybe in five more years it will.
From my perspective I consider 0/100-35/65 conservative, 36/64-65/35 average and 66/34-100/0 aggressive without regards to portfolio size. I would probably slide these some based on what percentage of enough someone has, I mean if you have 300% of enough and are 100/0, you still have a 150% of enough after a 50% drop in equities. I guess I sort of view risk relative having enough and maybe that is a mistake on my part or pure genius who knows.
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by visualguy »

TheTimeLord wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:33 am
quantAndHold wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:23 am
TheTimeLord wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:48 am
quantAndHold wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:16 am
TheTimeLord wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:37 am I appreciate all the perspectives and replies. I must admit it is a very different mix from what I expected and tells me the approach I have been pursuing is a definite outlier. Please keep them coming and thanks for sharing.
Unfair. You can’t make a statement like that without explaining your perspective.
When I composed the question, noting the monster returns of the past 3 years, I had in my mind people who had reached somewhere around 150% or more of their enough number (minimum 125%). That may be who has been responding or maybe not, but I have been surprised to see few if any posters taking notably more risk. Now that may be because they were fairly aggressive positioned coming into reaching "Enough" so throttling back a bit is more normal. Myself, I was more of a bond tent followed by a rising glide path guy. I was on the conservative side going into the start of Covid, went very conservative when I heard early on Japan was considering postponing the Olympics and have become steadily more and more aggressively positioned since, but never super aggressive. As a result, I am well past what I had considered enough. So I am now in the position that people have more than enough find themselves, I have an ability to take risk, but not a need to take risk. Personally, I have been wrestling for a while with which fork in the road to take and I have been leaning toward I have the ability to take risk so let's do it and see where this goes. Taking that fork in the road seems to be an outlier from how I am reading the posting. The OP isn't about finding a right or wrong answer it is about helping me wrap my head around how I want to proceed. Hopefully, I have managed to explain my perspective.
Okay, that makes sense. I think for me, it seems like we’re in this extended bull market that’s running on 0% interest rates, rather than any fundamental growth of the economy. I may have a 2% withdrawal rate right now, but at 58, I have a lot of years left to be retired, and a lot of sequence of returns risk to still be worried about. I also already have a 70/30 AA, despite being retired long enough that it wouldn’t really be feasible to go back to work if things went south. So it doesn’t feel like a time to take more risk. Maybe in five more years it will.
From my perspective I consider 0/100-35/65 conservative, 36/64-65/35 average and 66/34-100/0 aggressive without regards to portfolio size. I would probably slide these some based on what percentage of enough someone has, I mean if you have 300% of enough and are 100/0, you still have a 150% of enough after a 50% drop in equities. I guess I sort of view risk relative having enough and maybe that is a mistake on my part or pure genius who knows.
I think your view is largely correct, although what if there's a persistent drop much larger than 50%? Low probability maybe, but not impossible...
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by Wannaretireearly »

If I controlled travel costs (hard to do) we probably have enough now. Societally(?) I feel it would be a bit awkward to retire in my 40s, but more importantly I don’t want to retire while the kids are young. So, for now, we plough on! Trying to stay under the radar at work & find enjoyment in the relatively easy grind.

On the flip side, I love my 100% time off. Today, MLK day, is a great example. Time to stretch, take the dog out, enjoy morning beverage, wait til it warms up before doing some yard work. Probably a bike ride around lunchtime. The one thing I’m not worried about is how I spend my time. In fact, I like the folks who numerate their remaining days (say 20k days left max, likely 10k healthy days left max). This helps put an end date to the ‘plan’.

So, ‘more than enough’ for me will be when we become empty nesters (or close to), age 50 (a respectable age to quit imo, without a bunch of probing family/friend questions 🧐), and hopefully 40 times our expected (travel lavish) expenses in retirement.

‘Too late’ is the other metric. I don’t want to retire and wish I’d done it a few years earlier…cannot buy time.
Last edited by Wannaretireearly on Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by TheTimeLord »

visualguy wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:44 am
TheTimeLord wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:33 am
quantAndHold wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:23 am
TheTimeLord wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:48 am
quantAndHold wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:16 am

Unfair. You can’t make a statement like that without explaining your perspective.
When I composed the question, noting the monster returns of the past 3 years, I had in my mind people who had reached somewhere around 150% or more of their enough number (minimum 125%). That may be who has been responding or maybe not, but I have been surprised to see few if any posters taking notably more risk. Now that may be because they were fairly aggressive positioned coming into reaching "Enough" so throttling back a bit is more normal. Myself, I was more of a bond tent followed by a rising glide path guy. I was on the conservative side going into the start of Covid, went very conservative when I heard early on Japan was considering postponing the Olympics and have become steadily more and more aggressively positioned since, but never super aggressive. As a result, I am well past what I had considered enough. So I am now in the position that people have more than enough find themselves, I have an ability to take risk, but not a need to take risk. Personally, I have been wrestling for a while with which fork in the road to take and I have been leaning toward I have the ability to take risk so let's do it and see where this goes. Taking that fork in the road seems to be an outlier from how I am reading the posting. The OP isn't about finding a right or wrong answer it is about helping me wrap my head around how I want to proceed. Hopefully, I have managed to explain my perspective.
Okay, that makes sense. I think for me, it seems like we’re in this extended bull market that’s running on 0% interest rates, rather than any fundamental growth of the economy. I may have a 2% withdrawal rate right now, but at 58, I have a lot of years left to be retired, and a lot of sequence of returns risk to still be worried about. I also already have a 70/30 AA, despite being retired long enough that it wouldn’t really be feasible to go back to work if things went south. So it doesn’t feel like a time to take more risk. Maybe in five more years it will.
From my perspective I consider 0/100-35/65 conservative, 36/64-65/35 average and 66/34-100/0 aggressive without regards to portfolio size. I would probably slide these some based on what percentage of enough someone has, I mean if you have 300% of enough and are 100/0, you still have a 150% of enough after a 50% drop in equities. I guess I sort of view risk relative having enough and maybe that is a mistake on my part or pure genius who knows.
I think your view is largely correct, although what if there's a persistent drop much larger than 50%? Low probability maybe, but not impossible...
No, definitely not impossible, but when I think about situations like that 2 questions come to mind, just how improbable an event do I personally want to protect against since there is a cost to protecting against what doesn't happen and how bad would everything be if that happened and can I realistically protect against it. Do I really want to endure the cost of protecting myself from Snake Plissken setting off an EMP?
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by TheTimeLord »

Wannaretireearly wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:48 am If I controlled travel costs (hard to do) we probably have enough now. Societally(?) I feel it would be a bit awkward to retire in my 40s, but more importantly I don’t want to retire while the kids are young. So, for now, we plough on! Trying to stay under the radar at work & find enjoyment in the relatively easy grind.

On the flip side, I love my 100% time off. Today, MLK day, is a great example. Time to stretch, take the dog out, enjoy morning beverage, wait til it warms up before doing some yard work. Probably a bike ride around lunchtime. The one thing I’m not worried about is how I spend my time. In fact, I like the folks who numerate their remaining days (say 20k days left max, likely 10k healthy days left max). This helps put an end date to the ‘plan’.

So, ‘more than enough’ for me will be when we become empty nesters (or close to), age 50 (a respectable age to quit imo, without a bunch of probing family/friend questions 🧐), and hopefully 40 times our expected (travel lavish) expenses in retirement.

‘Too late’ is the other metric. I don’t want to retire and wish I’d done it a few years earlier…cannot buy time.
If you are like me and need playmates to have fun then retiring early is tough for 2 reasons.
1) Most everyone else you know will still be working
2) Most everyone else you know even if they are working are still saving so unwilling to be able to afford some of the items you are looking forward to

But I would guess for some more self entertained or even more outgoing folks the challenge is less or at least different.
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visualguy
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by visualguy »

TheTimeLord wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:57 am
visualguy wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:44 am
TheTimeLord wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:33 am
quantAndHold wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:23 am
TheTimeLord wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:48 am

When I composed the question, noting the monster returns of the past 3 years, I had in my mind people who had reached somewhere around 150% or more of their enough number (minimum 125%). That may be who has been responding or maybe not, but I have been surprised to see few if any posters taking notably more risk. Now that may be because they were fairly aggressive positioned coming into reaching "Enough" so throttling back a bit is more normal. Myself, I was more of a bond tent followed by a rising glide path guy. I was on the conservative side going into the start of Covid, went very conservative when I heard early on Japan was considering postponing the Olympics and have become steadily more and more aggressively positioned since, but never super aggressive. As a result, I am well past what I had considered enough. So I am now in the position that people have more than enough find themselves, I have an ability to take risk, but not a need to take risk. Personally, I have been wrestling for a while with which fork in the road to take and I have been leaning toward I have the ability to take risk so let's do it and see where this goes. Taking that fork in the road seems to be an outlier from how I am reading the posting. The OP isn't about finding a right or wrong answer it is about helping me wrap my head around how I want to proceed. Hopefully, I have managed to explain my perspective.
Okay, that makes sense. I think for me, it seems like we’re in this extended bull market that’s running on 0% interest rates, rather than any fundamental growth of the economy. I may have a 2% withdrawal rate right now, but at 58, I have a lot of years left to be retired, and a lot of sequence of returns risk to still be worried about. I also already have a 70/30 AA, despite being retired long enough that it wouldn’t really be feasible to go back to work if things went south. So it doesn’t feel like a time to take more risk. Maybe in five more years it will.
From my perspective I consider 0/100-35/65 conservative, 36/64-65/35 average and 66/34-100/0 aggressive without regards to portfolio size. I would probably slide these some based on what percentage of enough someone has, I mean if you have 300% of enough and are 100/0, you still have a 150% of enough after a 50% drop in equities. I guess I sort of view risk relative having enough and maybe that is a mistake on my part or pure genius who knows.
I think your view is largely correct, although what if there's a persistent drop much larger than 50%? Low probability maybe, but not impossible...
No, definitely not impossible, but when I think about situations like that 2 questions come to mind, just how improbable an event do I personally want to protect against since there is a cost to protecting against what doesn't happen and how bad would everything be if that happened and can I realistically protect against it. Do I really want to endure the cost of protecting myself from Snake Plissken setting off an EMP?
All it has to do is drop to where it was a few years ago, which doesn't require a zombie apocalypse...
MathWizard
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by MathWizard »

I dropped my allocation to equities.

I was 100% stocks when they dropped 50% in 2008/9 ,
Now that I have enough, and am near retirement, a 50% drop
with 100% stocks would take me from enough to "not enough".

I moved to an allocation that would allow me to have enough,
with a buffer, even after a 50% drop in stocks.

As I add money, I am moving back towards my desired allocation in retirement.

I had to be stock heavy to get where I needed when I was younger. I no longer need to
be, so I have reduced the volatility risk in my portfolio. I think that this is a pretty common
approach.
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by flyingaway »

TheTimeLord wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:01 pm
Wannaretireearly wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:48 am If I controlled travel costs (hard to do) we probably have enough now. Societally(?) I feel it would be a bit awkward to retire in my 40s, but more importantly I don’t want to retire while the kids are young. So, for now, we plough on! Trying to stay under the radar at work & find enjoyment in the relatively easy grind.

On the flip side, I love my 100% time off. Today, MLK day, is a great example. Time to stretch, take the dog out, enjoy morning beverage, wait til it warms up before doing some yard work. Probably a bike ride around lunchtime. The one thing I’m not worried about is how I spend my time. In fact, I like the folks who numerate their remaining days (say 20k days left max, likely 10k healthy days left max). This helps put an end date to the ‘plan’.

So, ‘more than enough’ for me will be when we become empty nesters (or close to), age 50 (a respectable age to quit imo, without a bunch of probing family/friend questions 🧐), and hopefully 40 times our expected (travel lavish) expenses in retirement.

‘Too late’ is the other metric. I don’t want to retire and wish I’d done it a few years earlier…cannot buy time.
If you are like me and need playmates to have fun then retiring early is tough for 2 reasons.
1) Most everyone else you know will still be working
2) Most everyone else you know even if they are working are still saving so unwilling to be able to afford some of the items you are looking forward to

But I would guess for some more self entertained or even more outgoing folks the challenge is less or at least different.
You can find new playmates or develop new interests. If money is not a problem, there is no problem.
Mike Scott
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by Mike Scott »

My "enough" will be based on arriving at full pension eligibility in a few more months. I'm not sure what I will choose to do at that point but it will be my choice. I look forward to that day.
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TheTimeLord
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by TheTimeLord »

visualguy wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:06 pm
TheTimeLord wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:57 am
visualguy wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:44 am
TheTimeLord wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:33 am
quantAndHold wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:23 am

Okay, that makes sense. I think for me, it seems like we’re in this extended bull market that’s running on 0% interest rates, rather than any fundamental growth of the economy. I may have a 2% withdrawal rate right now, but at 58, I have a lot of years left to be retired, and a lot of sequence of returns risk to still be worried about. I also already have a 70/30 AA, despite being retired long enough that it wouldn’t really be feasible to go back to work if things went south. So it doesn’t feel like a time to take more risk. Maybe in five more years it will.
From my perspective I consider 0/100-35/65 conservative, 36/64-65/35 average and 66/34-100/0 aggressive without regards to portfolio size. I would probably slide these some based on what percentage of enough someone has, I mean if you have 300% of enough and are 100/0, you still have a 150% of enough after a 50% drop in equities. I guess I sort of view risk relative having enough and maybe that is a mistake on my part or pure genius who knows.
I think your view is largely correct, although what if there's a persistent drop much larger than 50%? Low probability maybe, but not impossible...
No, definitely not impossible, but when I think about situations like that 2 questions come to mind, just how improbable an event do I personally want to protect against since there is a cost to protecting against what doesn't happen and how bad would everything be if that happened and can I realistically protect against it. Do I really want to endure the cost of protecting myself from Snake Plissken setting off an EMP?
All it has to do is drop to where it was a few years ago, which doesn't require a zombie apocalypse...
First, what percent of "Enough" are we talking about, if it is 200% the 50% drop still leaves you at 100% of "Enough". The S&P 500 ended 2019 @ 3,230.78 which I would consider pre-pandemic. Even if it drops like it did at the beginning of the pandemic, what was it 35% or 40%, the key is not the size of the drop but the duration as demonstrated by the DOT.com Bubble, The Great Recession and now The Covid Pandemic. There is a thread discussing Black Monday, I believe about 367 days after Back Monday the market was essentially where it was the day before Black Monday. Maybe I am being shortsighted but without details I am having trouble envisioning the market event you are describing having a devastating financial impact on someone who truly has whatever you call it when you get to more than "Enough". To be clear, to me 110% of "Enough" is not more than "Enough" it is within the margin of error of having "Enough".
Last edited by TheTimeLord on Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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TheTimeLord
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by TheTimeLord »

flyingaway wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:24 pm
TheTimeLord wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:01 pm
Wannaretireearly wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:48 am If I controlled travel costs (hard to do) we probably have enough now. Societally(?) I feel it would be a bit awkward to retire in my 40s, but more importantly I don’t want to retire while the kids are young. So, for now, we plough on! Trying to stay under the radar at work & find enjoyment in the relatively easy grind.

On the flip side, I love my 100% time off. Today, MLK day, is a great example. Time to stretch, take the dog out, enjoy morning beverage, wait til it warms up before doing some yard work. Probably a bike ride around lunchtime. The one thing I’m not worried about is how I spend my time. In fact, I like the folks who numerate their remaining days (say 20k days left max, likely 10k healthy days left max). This helps put an end date to the ‘plan’.

So, ‘more than enough’ for me will be when we become empty nesters (or close to), age 50 (a respectable age to quit imo, without a bunch of probing family/friend questions 🧐), and hopefully 40 times our expected (travel lavish) expenses in retirement.

‘Too late’ is the other metric. I don’t want to retire and wish I’d done it a few years earlier…cannot buy time.
If you are like me and need playmates to have fun then retiring early is tough for 2 reasons.
1) Most everyone else you know will still be working
2) Most everyone else you know even if they are working are still saving so unwilling to be able to afford some of the items you are looking forward to

But I would guess for some more self entertained or even more outgoing folks the challenge is less or at least different.
You can find new playmates or develop new interests. If money is not a problem, there is no problem.
Finding new playmates that don't have the same issues as the existing ones not easy, you can develop new interests but hate to throw out the bucket list, and I have found it is unrealistic to not be mindful of the budgets of other participants in events and trips.
IMHO, Investing should be about living the life you want, not avoiding the life you fear. | Run, You Clever Boy! [9085]
sailaway
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by sailaway »

TheTimeLord wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:30 pm
Finding new playmates that don't have the same issues as the existing ones not easy, you can develop new interests but hate to throw out the bucket list, and I have found it is unrealistic to not be mindful of the budgets of other participants in events and trips.
One of my favorite things about enough is inviting other people along! On our boat, the additional costs are minimal. Same once we have already rented an RV. We are paying for our oldest niece and nephew to come visit us. If what you want is to fly to Japan and heliski, that becomes a bit more pricey, but hey, everyone's definition of enough is going to be different!
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by smitcat »

TheTimeLord wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:01 pm
Wannaretireearly wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:48 am If I controlled travel costs (hard to do) we probably have enough now. Societally(?) I feel it would be a bit awkward to retire in my 40s, but more importantly I don’t want to retire while the kids are young. So, for now, we plough on! Trying to stay under the radar at work & find enjoyment in the relatively easy grind.

On the flip side, I love my 100% time off. Today, MLK day, is a great example. Time to stretch, take the dog out, enjoy morning beverage, wait til it warms up before doing some yard work. Probably a bike ride around lunchtime. The one thing I’m not worried about is how I spend my time. In fact, I like the folks who numerate their remaining days (say 20k days left max, likely 10k healthy days left max). This helps put an end date to the ‘plan’.

So, ‘more than enough’ for me will be when we become empty nesters (or close to), age 50 (a respectable age to quit imo, without a bunch of probing family/friend questions 🧐), and hopefully 40 times our expected (travel lavish) expenses in retirement.

‘Too late’ is the other metric. I don’t want to retire and wish I’d done it a few years earlier…cannot buy time.
If you are like me and need playmates to have fun then retiring early is tough for 2 reasons.
1) Most everyone else you know will still be working
2) Most everyone else you know even if they are working are still saving so unwilling to be able to afford some of the items you are looking forward to

But I would guess for some more self entertained or even more outgoing folks the challenge is less or at least different.
I have never found waiting for others to be a reasonably good plan.
YMMV
marcopolo
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by marcopolo »

TheTimeLord wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:30 pm
flyingaway wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:24 pm
TheTimeLord wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:01 pm
Wannaretireearly wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:48 am If I controlled travel costs (hard to do) we probably have enough now. Societally(?) I feel it would be a bit awkward to retire in my 40s, but more importantly I don’t want to retire while the kids are young. So, for now, we plough on! Trying to stay under the radar at work & find enjoyment in the relatively easy grind.

On the flip side, I love my 100% time off. Today, MLK day, is a great example. Time to stretch, take the dog out, enjoy morning beverage, wait til it warms up before doing some yard work. Probably a bike ride around lunchtime. The one thing I’m not worried about is how I spend my time. In fact, I like the folks who numerate their remaining days (say 20k days left max, likely 10k healthy days left max). This helps put an end date to the ‘plan’.

So, ‘more than enough’ for me will be when we become empty nesters (or close to), age 50 (a respectable age to quit imo, without a bunch of probing family/friend questions 🧐), and hopefully 40 times our expected (travel lavish) expenses in retirement.

‘Too late’ is the other metric. I don’t want to retire and wish I’d done it a few years earlier…cannot buy time.
If you are like me and need playmates to have fun then retiring early is tough for 2 reasons.
1) Most everyone else you know will still be working
2) Most everyone else you know even if they are working are still saving so unwilling to be able to afford some of the items you are looking forward to

But I would guess for some more self entertained or even more outgoing folks the challenge is less or at least different.
You can find new playmates or develop new interests. If money is not a problem, there is no problem.
Finding new playmates that don't have the same issues as the existing ones not easy, you can develop new interests but hate to throw out the bucket list, and I have found it is unrealistic to not be mindful of the budgets of other participants in events and trips.
We solved this problem by relocating to an area where we had no friends, but have easy access to lots of activities we like to do. We just started doing those activities and have made some great new friends. The area we moved to is a vacation destination, so some old friends have already come to visit us, and I suspect many more will also do the same once Covid travel is less of a concern.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by Wannaretireearly »

TheTimeLord wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:01 pm
Wannaretireearly wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:48 am If I controlled travel costs (hard to do) we probably have enough now. Societally(?) I feel it would be a bit awkward to retire in my 40s, but more importantly I don’t want to retire while the kids are young. So, for now, we plough on! Trying to stay under the radar at work & find enjoyment in the relatively easy grind.

On the flip side, I love my 100% time off. Today, MLK day, is a great example. Time to stretch, take the dog out, enjoy morning beverage, wait til it warms up before doing some yard work. Probably a bike ride around lunchtime. The one thing I’m not worried about is how I spend my time. In fact, I like the folks who numerate their remaining days (say 20k days left max, likely 10k healthy days left max). This helps put an end date to the ‘plan’.

So, ‘more than enough’ for me will be when we become empty nesters (or close to), age 50 (a respectable age to quit imo, without a bunch of probing family/friend questions 🧐), and hopefully 40 times our expected (travel lavish) expenses in retirement.

‘Too late’ is the other metric. I don’t want to retire and wish I’d done it a few years earlier…cannot buy time.
If you are like me and need playmates to have fun then retiring early is tough for 2 reasons.
1) Most everyone else you know will still be working
2) Most everyone else you know even if they are working are still saving so unwilling to be able to afford some of the items you are looking forward to

But I would guess for some more self entertained or even more outgoing folks the challenge is less or at least different.
I’m banking on dw being the main playmate!
One thing we’ve realized is that if one of us retires, the other will follow very quickly. So, retiring together should be part of our plan.
“At some point you are trading time you will never get back for money you will never spend.“ | “How do you want to spend the best remaining year of your life?“
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by helloeveryone »

010101 wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:38 pm I have found that “Enough” is a mirage and the closer you get, the further away it looks.
- When I was much younger, I dreamed of $1M. Then I got married and bought a house and was amazed at how much debt I was in.
- I got older and wiser and dreamed of $5M. Surely that was enough money to retire and sail away. Then we had a baby, got a bigger house and I was amazed at how expensive children were.
- I got even older and thought that when we hit $10M, surely then there would be enough money. That day has come and gone.

If anything, I’ve gotten even more aggressive in allocation as time has gone on.
Did lifestyle creep play a role in upping the “enough treshold” or is it more of a mindset once you get to the enough you realize you want/need a bigger cushion?
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by Activesloth »

After “enough”, comes the real problem. Retirement has gotten so complicated, that if I were to drop dead today, my wife and 2 kids would have to deal with: one taxable account, two traditional IRAs, two Roth IRAs, a 403b, a 457b, a 457f, and an HSA. I can just hear my daughter saying “What the heck was the old man up to?” I guess the next step is to write a death note explaining what a step up in basis means, the 5 year rule, the 10 year rule, why an inherited IRA is different, etc, etc. Instead of saying how much you love them, you leave financial instructions. That, or get a financial adviser who’ll promptly sell my individual stocks, increase my bond allocation, and finally get the portfolio into international stocks. And I won’t be around to say “Enough!”
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by quantAndHold »

I retired at 53, and never really had a shortage of playmates. You just have to be a bit of a joiner. There are loads of people in daytime fitness classes, sports leagues, adult ed classes, volunteer settings, etc. I had no idea how many FI and/or underemployed people there were out there until I became one of them.

As far as meeting people to travel with, we just started traveling, and we immediately started meeting new travel companions out on the road.
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by TheTimeLord »

quantAndHold wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:58 pm I retired at 53, and never really had a shortage of playmates. You just have to be a bit of a joiner. There are loads of people in daytime fitness classes, sports leagues, adult ed classes, volunteer settings, etc. I had no idea how many FI and/or underemployed people there were out there until I became one of them.

As far as meeting people to travel with, we just started traveling, and we immediately started meeting new travel companions out on the road.
There are definitely types of travel where we have met and enjoyed new companions along the way. But there are some types of travel that are most enjoyable shared with friends who have a common interest and appreciation plus the fact that virtually all of the people there are in groups.
IMHO, Investing should be about living the life you want, not avoiding the life you fear. | Run, You Clever Boy! [9085]
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by garlandwhizzer »

I think the Forum is an excellent way for those like Taylor and Mel to give back, generously helping others to find a successful path to financial security. Even those of us who just participate by posting our own opinions and experiences hopefully contribute to a lesser extent by expanding the knowledge pool available that will hopefully allow others to avoid the investing mistakes we've made along the way. I have been investing consistently for 35 years and I suspect I've made every possible mistake that an investor can make during that time frame. I have gradually gathered a lot of knowledge on what not to do like expensive complex portfolios, active management, and putting too much faith in financial media output and "expert" opinion especially when the "expert" has a financial interest in his opinion.

Also, I would like to think that when my life is over, it will have produced more good than bad for others--loved ones, friends, and even those I don't even know. Life has overall been very kind to me and the least I can do is do a modest payback. There are a number of charities which will do quite well when I crump. I give to them annually, but the biggest giveback will come late. Better late than never.

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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by Wannaretireearly »

quantAndHold wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:58 pm I retired at 53, and never really had a shortage of playmates. You just have to be a bit of a joiner. There are loads of people in daytime fitness classes, sports leagues, adult ed classes, volunteer settings, etc. I had no idea how many FI and/or underemployed people there were out there until I became one of them.

As far as meeting people to travel with, we just started traveling, and we immediately started meeting new travel companions out on the road.
Great to hear this! Would love to hear your travel stories, type of folks you met, how it changed your travel plans etc :sharebeer
“At some point you are trading time you will never get back for money you will never spend.“ | “How do you want to spend the best remaining year of your life?“
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by quantAndHold »

TheTimeLord wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:07 pm
quantAndHold wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:58 pm I retired at 53, and never really had a shortage of playmates. You just have to be a bit of a joiner. There are loads of people in daytime fitness classes, sports leagues, adult ed classes, volunteer settings, etc. I had no idea how many FI and/or underemployed people there were out there until I became one of them.

As far as meeting people to travel with, we just started traveling, and we immediately started meeting new travel companions out on the road.
There are definitely types of travel where we have met and enjoyed new companions along the way. But there are some types of travel that are most enjoyable shared with friends who have a common interest and appreciation plus the fact that virtually all of the people there are in groups.
Possibly, I suppose. We met people on the road, became friends with them, and now go on trips with them.

But even if we hadn’t, is the fact that you can’t occasionally go on exactly those kinds of trips really a reason to keep working? There are plenty of other places to go and other ways to travel.
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by visualguy »

TheTimeLord wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:25 pm
visualguy wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:06 pm All it has to do is drop to where it was a few years ago, which doesn't require a zombie apocalypse...
First, what percent of "Enough" are we talking about, if it is 200% the 50% drop still leaves you at 100% of "Enough". The S&P 500 ended 2019 @ 3,230.78 which I would consider pre-pandemic. Even if it drops like it did at the beginning of the pandemic, what was it 35% or 40%, the key is not the size of the drop but the duration as demonstrated by the DOT.com Bubble, The Great Recession and now The Covid Pandemic. There is a thread discussing Black Monday, I believe about 367 days after Back Monday the market was essentially where it was the day before Black Monday. Maybe I am being shortsighted but without details I am having trouble envisioning the market event you are describing having a devastating financial impact on someone who truly has whatever you call it when you get to more than "Enough". To be clear, to me 110% of "Enough" is not more than "Enough" it is within the margin of error of having "Enough".
VTI is currently at $235. It was around $100 6-7 years ago. If it drops to what it was just 6-7 years ago, almost 60% of the value goes poof, and that doesn't require an end-of-the-world scenario. It's easy to forget that we've had a really big run-up over the last few years...
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by TheTimeLord »

quantAndHold wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:15 pm
TheTimeLord wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:07 pm
quantAndHold wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:58 pm I retired at 53, and never really had a shortage of playmates. You just have to be a bit of a joiner. There are loads of people in daytime fitness classes, sports leagues, adult ed classes, volunteer settings, etc. I had no idea how many FI and/or underemployed people there were out there until I became one of them.

As far as meeting people to travel with, we just started traveling, and we immediately started meeting new travel companions out on the road.
There are definitely types of travel where we have met and enjoyed new companions along the way. But there are some types of travel that are most enjoyable shared with friends who have a common interest and appreciation plus the fact that virtually all of the people there are in groups.
Possibly, I suppose. We met people on the road, became friends with them, and now go on trips with them.

But even if we hadn’t, is the fact that you can’t occasionally go on exactly those kinds of trips really a reason to keep working? There are plenty of other places to go and other ways to travel.
I am the wrong person to ask, I didn't hate work, I rather enjoyed it on balance. My only point was certain types of people, like me, sort of have a bucket list of stuff they want to do and some of those items are there with the anticipation of friends being part of the equation. I have done lots of traveling, many of the trips would be consider bucket list trips but now I am looking at doing my bucket list.
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by TheTimeLord »

visualguy wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:17 pm
TheTimeLord wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:25 pm
visualguy wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:06 pm All it has to do is drop to where it was a few years ago, which doesn't require a zombie apocalypse...
First, what percent of "Enough" are we talking about, if it is 200% the 50% drop still leaves you at 100% of "Enough". The S&P 500 ended 2019 @ 3,230.78 which I would consider pre-pandemic. Even if it drops like it did at the beginning of the pandemic, what was it 35% or 40%, the key is not the size of the drop but the duration as demonstrated by the DOT.com Bubble, The Great Recession and now The Covid Pandemic. There is a thread discussing Black Monday, I believe about 367 days after Back Monday the market was essentially where it was the day before Black Monday. Maybe I am being shortsighted but without details I am having trouble envisioning the market event you are describing having a devastating financial impact on someone who truly has whatever you call it when you get to more than "Enough". To be clear, to me 110% of "Enough" is not more than "Enough" it is within the margin of error of having "Enough".
VTI is currently at $235. It was around $100 6-7 years ago. If it drops to what it was just 6-7 years ago, almost 60% of the value goes poof, and that doesn't require an end-of-the-world scenario. It's easy to forget that we've had a really big run-up over the last few years...
Do you know how many peak to trough 60% drops there have been in U.S. history? Also a drop of 60% taking a 2-3 years to recover is a far different than it taking a decade to recover but I don't really view either scenario as that problematic for someone sitting at a 150% or more of "Enough". Someone who has more than "Enough" is able to set aside 10 years of expenses in safe fixed income and still likely to be over 70/30, and that doesn't allow for dividends. Does 10 years of safe fixed income guarantee you there isn't a scenario where it will fail, no it doesn't, but in the end we have to draw the line somewhere. If "Enough" is 25x and we use my arbitrary 150% of "Enough" as what is next that is 37.5x with 10x set aside in safe fixed income you would roughly be 73/27. I hope this illustrates the way I am thinking, doesn't mean I am right or wrong just how I am considering things as I develop my plan, I am sure others will proceed down successful paths that are very different from how I am approaching things.
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by remomnyc »

After enough came retirement. More than enough was followed by additional spending and charitable giving. After more than enough, I set a floor on my fixed income (15x expenses) and let my equities run instead of adhering to my initial 55/45 retirement allocation.

I retired with my best friend, and I have a friends who don't work, so companionship is not an issue. I traveled 6 wks a year while working, so I really don't have a travel bucket list. Even before Covid, travel was unpleasant due to security and airline service. With Covid, I'm really not looking forward to travel, especially since I have a lot of postponed trips to make.
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by Bungo »

Upon reaching "enough", I retired. I sold my Bay Area house and bought a replacement in another state for about 1/3 the price, so real estate is now a smaller portion of my net worth, but aside from that I have not changed my 60/40 target asset allocation.
Last edited by Bungo on Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by Svensk Anga »

TheTimeLord wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:48 am
Myself, I was more of a bond tent followed by a rising glide path guy.
I did the bond tent thing. Went from 90-95% equities in accumulation to 58% in the years leading up to retirement in 2016. At that point we were 7 years removed from the global financial crisis and had experienced great returns. It was feeling a bit risky. Over the past six years we have been spending down the fixed income and not rebalancing. We're up to 77% equity now and I am starting to wonder if I should put a cap on that. I look at what's left of our FI stash and it is more than enough to get to SS at 70 plus an emergency buffer. Stocks should return better than FI over our horizon, so I've let it go on compounding.

We are starting to pass some along to the kids in the form of funding their Roth IRAs. Since the SECURE Act, I think it is better to "convert" from our traditional IRAs to the kids' Roths. This gets some funds clear of the 10-year empty the inherited IRA rule. May pass on more when RMDs start. Other than that, I'm still pondering.
visualguy
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by visualguy »

TheTimeLord wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:46 pm Do you know how many peak to trough 60% drops there have been in U.S. history? Also a drop of 60% taking a 2-3 years to recover is a far different than it taking a decade to recover but I don't really view either scenario as that problematic for someone sitting at a 150% or more of "Enough". Someone who has more than "Enough" is able to set aside 10 years of expenses in safe fixed income and still likely to be over 70/30, and that doesn't allow for dividends. Does 10 years of safe fixed income guarantee you there isn't a scenario where it will fail, no it doesn't, but in the end we have to draw the line somewhere. If "Enough" is 25x and we use my arbitrary 150% of "Enough" as what is next that is 37.5x with 10x set aside in safe fixed income you would roughly be 73/27. I hope this illustrates the way I am thinking, doesn't mean I am right or wrong just how I am considering things as I develop my plan, I am sure others will proceed down successful paths that are very different from how I am approaching things.
Sure, if you have 10 years of expenses in safe liquid investments, you should be ok. Also, it is an unlikely scenario. My only point is that it wouldn't take an end-of-the-world scenario for stocks to drop to where they were just 6-7 years ago (i.e. a close to a 60% drop), and stay there for a while. Thinking that a big drop is limited to 50% unless the world collapses is probably not totally solid.
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