So what comes after "Enough"

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LHRAdam
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by LHRAdam »

mike@jb wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:20 pm
fortunefavored wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:33 pm I was on the cusp pre-covid.. the rallies pushed me quite past. so I dumped my career and moved to the sticks.

No change in investment plans, other than sitting on too much cash (although still part of my fixed income AA.)

And not working or being involved in any way with megacorps is amazing. You forget how unnatural, artificial and evil the whole thing is when you're up to your neck in alligators all day every day.
When I read this post, I thought I had written it :sharebeer
Me too!!

I had planned to retire in 4 years. Had “enough” last month so “dumped my career and moved to the sticks” too. Retired at 50 instead.
Exchme
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by Exchme »

We decided to give money to the kids, they are very hardworking and responsible and we figured this way the money is way more impactful than decades from now.

We can always stop if markets take us back to just enough, but in the meantime it's nice to help them.
wander
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by wander »

We have not changed anything. AA is still the same at 80/20 (Equity/Bonds) with bond is worth about 10x of our annual expenses. Being enough enables us to give back more to our community. I am planning to work for another 10-15 years to keep health insurance for my family.
Escapevelocity
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by Escapevelocity »

Jazztonight wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:10 pm Personally, I firmly believe in the concept of "enough" and feel that DW and myself do indeed have enough.

I have not changed my AA over the last 10+ years, and only occasionally have re-balanced. It's not that I live particularly frugally. Rather, I can afford what I purchase, including planning for world cruises, which are pretty pricey.

Because of health/mobility issues, DW just can't travel the way we used to; thus cruises work for us.

I remember sitting at a table with some fellow diners on a cruise ship years ago and a few people were comparing what they paid for that particular cruise. One guy smiled and said, "Hell, I didn't pay for this cruise." He waited a beat and then added, "My children are paying for the cruise out of their inheritance. They just don't know it."

And that's my attitude. I drive a 2001 Camry, and live in a nice apartment with a nice view, all paid for except monthly fees. We now have our groceries delivered; I exercise at home (no gym fees and I'll bet I work out more than you do! LOL). I probably have all the clothing I'll ever need for the rest of my life. We have good health care and long-term care insurance. I'd say we pretty much do what we want to do.

I have friends my age (70s) who are still trying to monetize every damned thing they do. If this gives them joy, God bless 'em!

My own activities involve health maintenance and mental, physical, and cultural enrichment (foreign language study and music performance). That's what having "enough" is all about, to me. YMMV.
You are my idol. I'm retiring next month (just turned 55) and your post encapsulates how I want to live in retirement.
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LadyGeek
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by LadyGeek »

^^^ Those retiring in 2022 are encouraged to post in: Roll Call for the Retirement Class of 2022!
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by Thos »

Philanthropy of your choice.
Escapevelocity
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by Escapevelocity »

quantAndHold wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:15 pm
TheTimeLord wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:07 pm
quantAndHold wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:58 pm I retired at 53, and never really had a shortage of playmates. You just have to be a bit of a joiner. There are loads of people in daytime fitness classes, sports leagues, adult ed classes, volunteer settings, etc. I had no idea how many FI and/or underemployed people there were out there until I became one of them.

As far as meeting people to travel with, we just started traveling, and we immediately started meeting new travel companions out on the road.
There are definitely types of travel where we have met and enjoyed new companions along the way. But there are some types of travel that are most enjoyable shared with friends who have a common interest and appreciation plus the fact that virtually all of the people there are in groups.
Possibly, I suppose. We met people on the road, became friends with them, and now go on trips with them.

But even if we hadn’t, is the fact that you can’t occasionally go on exactly those kinds of trips really a reason to keep working? There are plenty of other places to go and other ways to travel.
I, for one, feel gratitude for those who choose to keep working rather than retire even though they are financially prepared to do so. If everyone retired as soon as they were actuarily qualified then I would assume inflation would be worse as those individuals shifted from producers to consumers and stopped paying high income taxes, etc. those burdens would shift more to people such as myself.
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cockersx3
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by cockersx3 »

Wannaretireearly wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:48 am So, ‘more than enough’ for me will be when we become empty nesters (or close to), age 50 (a respectable age to quit imo, without a bunch of probing family/friend questions 🧐), and hopefully 40 times our expected (travel lavish) expenses in retirement.
Hoping that this is true, but not very confident about it. I'm on the cusp of turning 50, and also looking seriously at ER. I was actually concerned enough about those awkward questions that I switched to working for a consulting firm as a full-time WFH employee. Like I posted on another thread, people in my neighborhood are used to seeing me at home or taking walks during the day so I strongly doubt that anyone will even notice when we ER. Thankfully I work in a STEM field that, while not terribly complicated IMO, no one else really understands all that well - so very rarely does anyone ask me any probing questions about my job other than at a very high level ("so how's work going", etc). If someone asks I'll just say "fine." Stretching the truth maybe, but better than the awkward alternative.

In response to the OP - once we had enough, we dialed the work back quite a bit. The "career ladder" was very important to me pre-FI, but for now it just isn't important anymore. Wife is now working half-time, and with my new job (see above) I work only a fraction of the hours I did before in my MegaCorp role. After having a W-2 job since I was 14 years old, this seems like a great way to "wean" myself off of working and onto more of a life focus :-)
Rudedog
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by Rudedog »

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retire2022
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by retire2022 »

Timelord

My current portfolio balance is 2.6 million, I retired last August 2021 at 61.

2.6 million was my number, my early contributions allowed for growth so far, I project in five years it could be 3-5 million with no additional contributions.

wish me luck.

edit check out my inputs to FICalc

Roth IRA is 920k and not included in calculation because withdrawals are tax free

https://calculator.ficalc.app/?addition ... lioPercent
Last edited by retire2022 on Mon Jan 17, 2022 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
H-Town
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by H-Town »

TheTimeLord wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:24 pm Over the last 3 years with VTI returning 31.67%, 21.03% and 25.67% I am sure there are lots of BH who have gone from "Enough" to well north of enough. So how has getting to whatever comes after "Enough" changed your investing or did you just leave things the way they were?
It's exactly the same on the other side after "enough". Life goes on. Nothing changes. AA is still the same. Automatic investments still go on. We bought a nice steak from the groceries and made ourselves a nice dinner.
Time is the ultimate currency.
marcopolo
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by marcopolo »

cockersx3 wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 6:40 pm
Wannaretireearly wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:48 am So, ‘more than enough’ for me will be when we become empty nesters (or close to), age 50 (a respectable age to quit imo, without a bunch of probing family/friend questions 🧐), and hopefully 40 times our expected (travel lavish) expenses in retirement.
Hoping that this is true, but not very confident about it. I'm on the cusp of turning 50, and also looking seriously at ER. I was actually concerned enough about those awkward questions that I switched to working for a consulting firm as a full-time WFH employee. Like I posted on another thread, people in my neighborhood are used to seeing me at home or taking walks during the day so I strongly doubt that anyone will even notice when we ER. Thankfully I work in a STEM field that, while not terribly complicated IMO, no one else really understands all that well - so very rarely does anyone ask me any probing questions about my job other than at a very high level ("so how's work going", etc). If someone asks I'll just say "fine." Stretching the truth maybe, but better than the awkward alternative.

In response to the OP - once we had enough, we dialed the work back quite a bit. The "career ladder" was very important to me pre-FI, but for now it just isn't important anymore. Wife is now working half-time, and with my new job (see above) I work only a fraction of the hours I did before in my MegaCorp role. After having a W-2 job since I was 14 years old, this seems like a great way to "wean" myself off of working and onto more of a life focus :-)
I don't understand this concern about "awkward" conversations.

I retired at 51 a few years ago. Most people I know noticed I had retired. Pretty much all of them were happy for me, with perhaps a little bit of good humored jealousy. I did not have a single "awkward" conversation that I can recall.

What do you think people will say to you to make it awkward?
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by tipswatcher »

SimpleGift wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:49 pm
TheTimeLord wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:24 pm So how has getting to whatever comes after "Enough" changed your investing...
The biggest change for us has been, instead of rebalancing from stocks into bonds in recent years, we've more often been rebalancing out of stocks into our donor-advised fund.

Reaching "enough," we now have the opportunity to share our good fortune with non-profits and other organizations that are working to make the planet a better place.
This is a great response, if you aren't old enough to do Qualified Charitable Distributions. I'd say it is true for us too. We have no kids, no legacy concerns. Most of this "nest egg" is going to charity, either now, or later. We have been re-balancing since the year 1999. Up, down, in, out. Still doing it, and that's what works for us.
TIPS: Perfect investment for imperfect times?
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by AnnetteLouisan »

What comes after Enough is Not Losing It. Quite a challenge in its own right.
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bampf
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by bampf »

This is such an awesome thread. By nearly any measure we have enough. Firecalc, Rich Broke or dead etc. Yes, sequence of returns risks could hit. Yes, there could be issues with respect to boredom or sloth or loneliness.

That being said, after every break I come back to work dreading it just a bit more. My job is awesome. It is intellectually challenging. There is a lot of prestige. I get to make a difference. But what I want to do is make bread. I want to perfect my boeuf bourguignon. I want to help kids build robots and I want to tweak out an old car. I want to buy a boat and do the great loop and I want to play hockey and ski and make wine and tell stories.

This thread has me oddly giddy with the possibilities. Thank you all.

--Bampf
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BAM55
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by BAM55 »

"What comes after Enough" is ..... options!
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by flyingaway »

If you are still working and making money, that means that you do not believe that you have ENOUGH. Because you want MORE money, whether you NEED the money or not is a different question.
theorist
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by theorist »

We have sort of reached the “enough” point I think, and I have been pondering how to use my remaining energy in ways that are fun and stimulating and educational for myself, but that I can also pursue with some intensity and can feel are doing some “good.” The following site has a lot of useful information and links for people with different backgrounds and inclinations; maybe some of you will find it useful too. It focuses on effective ways to contribute to various causes, with a lot of discussion of careers one can pursue to contribute (whether by direct effort or monetarily) to various efforts. Some or many are possible second or third careers…

https://www.effectivealtruism.org/
marcopolo
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by marcopolo »

bampf wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:28 pm This is such an awesome thread. By nearly any measure we have enough. Firecalc, Rich Broke or dead etc. Yes, sequence of returns risks could hit. Yes, there could be issues with respect to boredom or sloth or loneliness.

That being said, after every break I come back to work dreading it just a bit more. My job is awesome. It is intellectually challenging. There is a lot of prestige. I get to make a difference. But what I want to do is make bread. I want to perfect my boeuf bourguignon. I want to help kids build robots and I want to tweak out an old car. I want to buy a boat and do the great loop and I want to play hockey and ski and make wine and tell stories.

This thread has me oddly giddy with the possibilities. Thank you all.

--Bampf
What are you waiting for?
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.
dboeger1
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by dboeger1 »

We haven't reached "enough" yet, but I'd say we're closer to FIRE than coastFIRE, having long surpassed the point where our investments should grow to support us by or even before full retirement age. As we've gotten closer to our FI targets, we've decided to loosen up our discretionary spending budget at the cost of taking longer to hit our targets. My reasoning behind this is that we are still young enough that our biggest problem at this point is the uncertainty of a very long time horizon; even though we're approaching "enough", it certainly feels like we're too young to risk relying solely on the portfolio. So either way, we're kind of stuck working for a while (which is perhaps the greatest irony of chasing FIRE at a relatively young age), and since we don't really need additional savings all that much, I figure we may as well increase discretionary spending some.

Note that I'm talking about a gradual shift in the grand scheme of things. We're still saving aggressively in absolute terms, and we're not talking about living a lavish lifestyle, so the additional spending money does make a meaningful difference to our quality of life. I would much rather be FIRE than chained to a job my whole life; I just no longer see a meaningful difference between reaching FIRE at say 38 vs. 42. In either case, the uncertainty due to long time horizon is essentially the same, and the latter timeline presumably comes with increased discretionary spending along the way.
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by kleiner »

bampf wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:28 pm This is such an awesome thread. By nearly any measure we have enough. Firecalc, Rich Broke or dead etc. Yes, sequence of returns risks could hit. Yes, there could be issues with respect to boredom or sloth or loneliness.

That being said, after every break I come back to work dreading it just a bit more. My job is awesome. It is intellectually challenging. There is a lot of prestige. I get to make a difference. But what I want to do is make bread. I want to perfect my boeuf bourguignon. I want to help kids build robots and I want to tweak out an old car. I want to buy a boat and do the great loop and I want to play hockey and ski and make wine and tell stories.

This thread has me oddly giddy with the possibilities. Thank you all.

--Bampf
I was in a similar position - very highly paid and working in a field that I always wanted to. And yet, as you say, I used to dread going back to work after every break. We have saved far more than enough so I retired at age 58 at the end of 2020. I have thoroughly enjoyed being retired. I have a lot of hobbies and interests so I am never bored - there is just so much to explore.
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TheTimeLord
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by TheTimeLord »

flyingaway wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:19 am If you are still working and making money, that means that you do not believe that you have ENOUGH. Because you want MORE money, whether you NEED the money or not is a different question.
I guess if you believe the only reason to work is to make money that would be true. I really don't think working for a paycheck is necessary a sign people don't believe they have enough.
IMHO, Investing should be about living the life you want, not avoiding the life you fear. | Run, You Clever Boy! [9085]
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by EnjoyIt »

TheTimeLord wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:48 am
When I composed the question, noting the monster returns of the past 3 years, I had in my mind people who had reached somewhere around 150% or more of their enough number (minimum 125%). That may be who has been responding or maybe not, but I have been surprised to see few if any posters taking notably more risk. Now that may be because they were fairly aggressive positioned coming into reaching "Enough" so throttling back a bit is more normal. Myself, I was more of a bond tent followed by a rising glide path guy. I was on the conservative side going into the start of Covid, went very conservative when I heard early on Japan was considering postponing the Olympics and have become steadily more and more aggressively positioned since, but never super aggressive. As a result, I am well past what I had considered enough. So I am now in the position that people have more than enough find themselves, I have an ability to take risk, but not a need to take risk. Personally, I have been wrestling for a while with which fork in the road to take and I have been leaning toward I have the ability to take risk so let's do it and see where this goes. Taking that fork in the road seems to be an outlier from how I am reading the posting. The OP isn't about finding a right or wrong answer it is about helping me wrap my head around how I want to proceed. Hopefully, I have managed to explain my perspective.
First I would like to ask you a question and then I will answer yours

Q: Over the years, on this forum you have been the poster child of One More Year Syndrome. Considering now that you are sitting at 150% of enough do you regret the time spent working for money you don't necessarily need? Do you wish you spent that money elsewhere? I do realize that you don't hate your work.

I apologize on the length of my post, but you brought up several topics in your posts and I would like to address as many as I could.

1) We had close to enough a few years ago and when we got close, we decided we will start spending more time on happiness and less time working for money figuring that eventually we would have enough. Shortly after, we transitioned to part time work. I honestly can't remember when it happened, but before the pandemic hit we definiltey had enough. Over the years as we continued working, we stayed at 70/30 AA. That has not changed ever since we followed the way of the Bogle back in 2013. Since our fixed/mandatory expenses are relatively stable, as our wealth grew our penciled discretionary spending allotment has increased. My thinking is that we can spend more when times are good and less when times are bad. We did an unnecessary but highly desired home remodel, we traveled a lot the last few years and we have bought some toys. For those curious, we also donated to causes that are important to us, but to be honest, those donation have not increased in the last 2-3 years and worth us reevaluating.

Regarding your question on risk and where I suspect bonds going over the next few years I am strongly considering adjusting my AA from 70/30 to 10 years in fixed income/bonds at a decreased discretionary budget. As an example this is what it may look like in a factitious example for easier math. Let us assume a family that spends $80k a year where 50% is discretionary on a $2 million portfolio. That portfolio has since grown to $3 million and hopefully growing. This couple could now spend $120k/yr where they still spend $40k on fixed expenses and $80k on discretionary expenses. This couple can easily go back to their $80k/yr spending and therefore their AA would be 10 years at $80k/year or $800k in fixed income and $2.2 million in equities. Because this couple is still employed part time, the portfolio should continue to grow, the fixed portion does not change and everything goes into equities hopefully increasing wealth over time for additional spending and donations. I hope my example makes sense on what we are looking to do. We haven't pulled the trigger yet as a change to my IPS needs time to brew and then transitioned over time.

2) You brought up friends and their time/budget that doesn't match yours and how we handle that problem which I agree is a real thing. We help cover the cost for our friends and try and do it in a way that they don't notice. This is where some of our extra discretionary budget has been going. As an example we booked a cabin this summer for a group of our fiends on the lake but told them all the cost of the cabin is lower than I actually paid making the trip affordable for everyone. I can tell you, I would love to one day in the future have more than enough where I can comfortably afford to just book the place without needing any reimbursement. If you travel a lot, you probably are also accumulating miles. You want to travel somewhere with friends, offer to use your miles to book their flight and they will gladly join you. You want to go to a show, tell them you got 4 free tickets to Hamilton or a football game or whatever. Invite people to your home and entertain at your house (we love having guests.)

3) Finding new playmates: I agree it isn't easy but doable. As an example, several days ago I was skiing and sat in a gondola with 3 strangers. It looked like we all were solo skiers and started chatting with each other. 1 of the guys was employed on the mountain as an instructor while the other claimed to have done 60 or was it 70 days of skiing already this year without traveling. If you understand the logistics it means this person has been skiing almost every day since the mountain opened for business. The mountain employee asked for the skiers number in hopes of being able to ski together in the future. They exchanged information and separated ways. It is very possible they will become friends in the future. I figure if you are doing your hobbies in the area that you live, eventually we will come across people who enjoy the same hobby and start chatting. Who knows, you may become friends. You just need to be open minded and willing to make those conversations happen.
A time to EVALUATE your jitters: | viewtopic.php?p=1139732#p1139732
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TheTimeLord
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by TheTimeLord »

EnjoyIt wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:33 am
TheTimeLord wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:48 am
When I composed the question, noting the monster returns of the past 3 years, I had in my mind people who had reached somewhere around 150% or more of their enough number (minimum 125%). That may be who has been responding or maybe not, but I have been surprised to see few if any posters taking notably more risk. Now that may be because they were fairly aggressive positioned coming into reaching "Enough" so throttling back a bit is more normal. Myself, I was more of a bond tent followed by a rising glide path guy. I was on the conservative side going into the start of Covid, went very conservative when I heard early on Japan was considering postponing the Olympics and have become steadily more and more aggressively positioned since, but never super aggressive. As a result, I am well past what I had considered enough. So I am now in the position that people have more than enough find themselves, I have an ability to take risk, but not a need to take risk. Personally, I have been wrestling for a while with which fork in the road to take and I have been leaning toward I have the ability to take risk so let's do it and see where this goes. Taking that fork in the road seems to be an outlier from how I am reading the posting. The OP isn't about finding a right or wrong answer it is about helping me wrap my head around how I want to proceed. Hopefully, I have managed to explain my perspective.
First I would like to ask you a question and then I will answer yours

Q: Over the years, on this forum you have been the poster child of One More Year Syndrome. Considering now that you are sitting at 150% of enough do you regret the time spent working for money you don't necessarily need? Do you wish you spent that money elsewhere? I do realize that you don't hate your work.
No, not in the least. I can honestly say I cannot remember ever having the thought cross my mind that I wish I had stopped working earlier. Now maybe this is just because of the difficulty of being able to do what I have wanted to do in when retired or because I did many of things I wanted to do in retirement when I was working. Who knows. FWIW, I still consider offers when they come my way. Also, as a clarification, 150% was what I was setting as the minimum, I am north of that, but a large chunk of that has come in the past 2 years. Let me know if there is anything I need to clarify.
IMHO, Investing should be about living the life you want, not avoiding the life you fear. | Run, You Clever Boy! [9085]
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by goodenyou »

EnjoyIt wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:33 am
TheTimeLord wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:48 am
When I composed the question, noting the monster returns of the past 3 years, I had in my mind people who had reached somewhere around 150% or more of their enough number (minimum 125%). That may be who has been responding or maybe not, but I have been surprised to see few if any posters taking notably more risk. Now that may be because they were fairly aggressive positioned coming into reaching "Enough" so throttling back a bit is more normal. Myself, I was more of a bond tent followed by a rising glide path guy. I was on the conservative side going into the start of Covid, went very conservative when I heard early on Japan was considering postponing the Olympics and have become steadily more and more aggressively positioned since, but never super aggressive. As a result, I am well past what I had considered enough. So I am now in the position that people have more than enough find themselves, I have an ability to take risk, but not a need to take risk. Personally, I have been wrestling for a while with which fork in the road to take and I have been leaning toward I have the ability to take risk so let's do it and see where this goes. Taking that fork in the road seems to be an outlier from how I am reading the posting. The OP isn't about finding a right or wrong answer it is about helping me wrap my head around how I want to proceed. Hopefully, I have managed to explain my perspective.
First I would like to ask you a question and then I will answer yours

Q: Over the years, on this forum you have been the poster child of One More Year Syndrome. Considering now that you are sitting at 150% of enough do you regret the time spent working for money you don't necessarily need? Do you wish you spent that money elsewhere? I do realize that you don't hate your work.

I apologize on the length of my post, but you brought up several topics in your posts and I would like to address as many as I could.

1) We had close to enough a few years ago and when we got close, we decided we will start spending more time on happiness and less time working for money figuring that eventually we would have enough. Shortly after, we transitioned to part time work. I honestly can't remember when it happened, but before the pandemic hit we definiltey had enough. Over the years as we continued working, we stayed at 70/30 AA. That has not changed ever since we followed the way of the Bogle back in 2013. Since our fixed/mandatory expenses are relatively stable, as our wealth grew our penciled discretionary spending allotment has increased. My thinking is that we can spend more when times are good and less when times are bad. We did an unnecessary but highly desired home remodel, we traveled a lot the last few years and we have bought some toys. For those curious, we also donated to causes that are important to us, but to be honest, those donation have not increased in the last 2-3 years and worth us reevaluating.

Regarding your question on risk and where I suspect bonds going over the next few years I am strongly considering adjusting my AA from 70/30 to 10 years in fixed income/bonds at a decreased discretionary budget. As an example this is what it may look like in a factitious example for easier math. Let us assume a family that spends $80k a year where 50% is discretionary on a $2 million portfolio. That portfolio has since grown to $3 million and hopefully growing. This couple could now spend $120k/yr where they still spend $40k on fixed expenses and $80k on discretionary expenses. This couple can easily go back to their $80k/yr spending and therefore their AA would be 10 years at $80k/year or $800k in fixed income and $2.2 million in equities. Because this couple is still employed part time, the portfolio should continue to grow, the fixed portion does not change and everything goes into equities hopefully increasing wealth over time for additional spending and donations. I hope my example makes sense on what we are looking to do. We haven't pulled the trigger yet as a change to my IPS needs time to brew and then transitioned over time.

2) You brought up friends and their time/budget that doesn't match yours and how we handle that problem which I agree is a real thing. We help cover the cost for our friends and try and do it in a way that they don't notice. This is where some of our extra discretionary budget has been going. As an example we booked a cabin this summer for a group of our fiends on the lake but told them all the cost of the cabin is lower than I actually paid making the trip affordable for everyone. I can tell you, I would love to one day in the future have more than enough where I can comfortably afford to just book the place without needing any reimbursement. If you travel a lot, you probably are also accumulating miles. You want to travel somewhere with friends, offer to use your miles to book their flight and they will gladly join you. You want to go to a show, tell them you got 4 free tickets to Hamilton or a football game or whatever. Invite people to your home and entertain at your house (we love having guests.)

3) Finding new playmates: I agree it isn't easy but doable. As an example, several days ago I was skiing and sat in a gondola with 3 strangers. It looked like we all were solo skiers and started chatting with each other. 1 of the guys was employed on the mountain as an instructor while the other claimed to have done 60 or was it 70 days of skiing already this year without traveling. If you understand the logistics it means this person has been skiing almost every day since the mountain opened for business. The mountain employee asked for the skiers number in hopes of being able to ski together in the future. They exchanged information and separated ways. It is very possible they will become friends in the future. I figure if you are doing your hobbies in the area that you live, eventually we will come across people who enjoy the same hobby and start chatting. Who knows, you may become friends. You just need to be open minded and willing to make those conversations happen.
Similar situation here. Still working and trying to figure out how much "fixed" costs we want to sign up for as we retire. We sold all of our properties, rent a small home (very nice new one) and our expenses are lower than previous. We spend (somewhat) freely because we save more than ever. The hard decision is whether to increase the lifestyle and spend more (build new custom home, golf membership etc.) or just keep it simple. Being around more people who have similar or larger discretionary budgets may make it easier to socialize, but I'm just not sure I want to obligate myself to that level of spending.
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by bampf »

kleiner wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:22 am
bampf wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:28 pm This is such an awesome thread. By nearly any measure we have enough. Firecalc, Rich Broke or dead etc. Yes, sequence of returns risks could hit. Yes, there could be issues with respect to boredom or sloth or loneliness.

That being said, after every break I come back to work dreading it just a bit more. My job is awesome. It is intellectually challenging. There is a lot of prestige. I get to make a difference. But what I want to do is make bread. I want to perfect my boeuf bourguignon. I want to help kids build robots and I want to tweak out an old car. I want to buy a boat and do the great loop and I want to play hockey and ski and make wine and tell stories.

This thread has me oddly giddy with the possibilities. Thank you all.

--Bampf
I was in a similar position - very highly paid and working in a field that I always wanted to. And yet, as you say, I used to dread going back to work after every break. We have saved far more than enough so I retired at age 58 at the end of 2020. I have thoroughly enjoyed being retired. I have a lot of hobbies and interests so I am never bored - there is just so much to explore.
Days like today help keep me humble and yet reinforce that my plan is a pretty good plan. I don't know when to pull the trigger, but, it won't be long. I would like my youngest to graduate high school first, but, I don't need to to that. Maybe before she graduates. Maybe at that time, but, certainly no later, as long as the market keeps on keeping on. There is a lot of exploring to do and I can't do it sitting behind my desk.

-- Bampf
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by smitcat »

bampf wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:56 pm
kleiner wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:22 am
bampf wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:28 pm This is such an awesome thread. By nearly any measure we have enough. Firecalc, Rich Broke or dead etc. Yes, sequence of returns risks could hit. Yes, there could be issues with respect to boredom or sloth or loneliness.

That being said, after every break I come back to work dreading it just a bit more. My job is awesome. It is intellectually challenging. There is a lot of prestige. I get to make a difference. But what I want to do is make bread. I want to perfect my boeuf bourguignon. I want to help kids build robots and I want to tweak out an old car. I want to buy a boat and do the great loop and I want to play hockey and ski and make wine and tell stories.

This thread has me oddly giddy with the possibilities. Thank you all.

--Bampf
I was in a similar position - very highly paid and working in a field that I always wanted to. And yet, as you say, I used to dread going back to work after every break. We have saved far more than enough so I retired at age 58 at the end of 2020. I have thoroughly enjoyed being retired. I have a lot of hobbies and interests so I am never bored - there is just so much to explore.
Days like today help keep me humble and yet reinforce that my plan is a pretty good plan. I don't know when to pull the trigger, but, it won't be long. I would like my youngest to graduate high school first, but, I don't need to to that. Maybe before she graduates. Maybe at that time, but, certainly no later, as long as the market keeps on keeping on. There is a lot of exploring to do and I can't do it sitting behind my desk.

-- Bampf
"But what I want to do is make bread. I want to perfect my boeuf bourguignon. I want to help kids build robots and I want to tweak out an old car. I want to buy a boat and do the great loop and I want to play hockey and ski and make wine and tell stories."
Another option perhaps,
We did not wait until we were fully retired to do many of these things - time goes by and you cannot get it back. We did part of the loop from the keys to the Detroit area over 8-10 legs of 2-3 weeks each. Kept the boats for another 12 years or so enjoying the weekends and long week travels. Helped coach the LAX and BB teams while they were still in school, had many skiing days, a few dozen cars over the years (and trucks), plenty of museums, zoos, theme parks etc. And then we did retire....
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by HootingSloth »

TheTimeLord wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:33 am
quantAndHold wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:23 am
TheTimeLord wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:48 am
quantAndHold wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:16 am
TheTimeLord wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:37 am I appreciate all the perspectives and replies. I must admit it is a very different mix from what I expected and tells me the approach I have been pursuing is a definite outlier. Please keep them coming and thanks for sharing.
Unfair. You can’t make a statement like that without explaining your perspective.
When I composed the question, noting the monster returns of the past 3 years, I had in my mind people who had reached somewhere around 150% or more of their enough number (minimum 125%). That may be who has been responding or maybe not, but I have been surprised to see few if any posters taking notably more risk. Now that may be because they were fairly aggressive positioned coming into reaching "Enough" so throttling back a bit is more normal. Myself, I was more of a bond tent followed by a rising glide path guy. I was on the conservative side going into the start of Covid, went very conservative when I heard early on Japan was considering postponing the Olympics and have become steadily more and more aggressively positioned since, but never super aggressive. As a result, I am well past what I had considered enough. So I am now in the position that people have more than enough find themselves, I have an ability to take risk, but not a need to take risk. Personally, I have been wrestling for a while with which fork in the road to take and I have been leaning toward I have the ability to take risk so let's do it and see where this goes. Taking that fork in the road seems to be an outlier from how I am reading the posting. The OP isn't about finding a right or wrong answer it is about helping me wrap my head around how I want to proceed. Hopefully, I have managed to explain my perspective.
Okay, that makes sense. I think for me, it seems like we’re in this extended bull market that’s running on 0% interest rates, rather than any fundamental growth of the economy. I may have a 2% withdrawal rate right now, but at 58, I have a lot of years left to be retired, and a lot of sequence of returns risk to still be worried about. I also already have a 70/30 AA, despite being retired long enough that it wouldn’t really be feasible to go back to work if things went south. So it doesn’t feel like a time to take more risk. Maybe in five more years it will.
From my perspective I consider 0/100-35/65 conservative, 36/64-65/35 average and 66/34-100/0 aggressive without regards to portfolio size. I would probably slide these some based on what percentage of enough someone has, I mean if you have 300% of enough and are 100/0, you still have a 150% of enough after a 50% drop in equities. I guess I sort of view risk relative having enough and maybe that is a mistake on my part or pure genius who knows.
This is one of the main reasons that I use an automatic portfolio-sized-based glidepath. Prior to reaching 50% of enough, we held an 80/20 AA. We follow an equation that smoothly adjusts this AA to 60/40 as the portfolio size grows. Once we pass enough, it turns in the other directions and smoothly adjusts back to 80/20 by the time we reach 200% of enough. Above 200% of enough, it remains at 80/20.

This sounds quite similar to your concept of a bond tent plus rising equity glidepath combined with your notion that the portfolio size relative to enough is the key metric.
Global Market Portfolio + modest tilt towards volatility (80/20->60/40 as approach FI) + modest tilt away from exchange rate risk (80% global+20% U.S. stocks; currency-hedge bonds) + tax optimization
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by Elric »

For us, while it opens up a broader, spectrum from very low to higher risk, no real change to asset allocation. It is likely to change withdrawal strategy from ignoring legacy and tax minimization to taking legacy tax implications.
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by sf_tech_saver »

No matter how many stocks and bonds you have there is nothing like the security and satisfaction of exercising a skill society really values every day.
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by goldendad »

My wife and I plan set up a fund to pay for the college educations of our grandchildren and great grandchildren.
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by cockersx3 »

marcopolo wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 7:45 pm
cockersx3 wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 6:40 pm
Wannaretireearly wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:48 am So, ‘more than enough’ for me will be when we become empty nesters (or close to), age 50 (a respectable age to quit imo, without a bunch of probing family/friend questions 🧐), and hopefully 40 times our expected (travel lavish) expenses in retirement.
Hoping that this is true, but not very confident about it. I'm on the cusp of turning 50, and also looking seriously at ER. I was actually concerned enough about those awkward questions that I switched to working for a consulting firm as a full-time WFH employee. Like I posted on another thread, people in my neighborhood are used to seeing me at home or taking walks during the day so I strongly doubt that anyone will even notice when we ER. Thankfully I work in a STEM field that, while not terribly complicated IMO, no one else really understands all that well - so very rarely does anyone ask me any probing questions about my job other than at a very high level ("so how's work going", etc). If someone asks I'll just say "fine." Stretching the truth maybe, but better than the awkward alternative.

In response to the OP - once we had enough, we dialed the work back quite a bit. The "career ladder" was very important to me pre-FI, but for now it just isn't important anymore. Wife is now working half-time, and with my new job (see above) I work only a fraction of the hours I did before in my MegaCorp role. After having a W-2 job since I was 14 years old, this seems like a great way to "wean" myself off of working and onto more of a life focus :-)
I don't understand this concern about "awkward" conversations.

I retired at 51 a few years ago. Most people I know noticed I had retired. Pretty much all of them were happy for me, with perhaps a little bit of good humored jealousy. I did not have a single "awkward" conversation that I can recall.

What do you think people will say to you to make it awkward?
Good question. I guess I'm concerned about the jealousy aspect of it. We live in an upper-middle-class neighborhood with people that tend to be very career focused, so I can see some people potentially looking down on us for not continuing to climb the ladder. I'm also a bit concerned about feedback from my family, in which the idea of not working at an early age (ie <60) would probably blow their minds. I think that all of them would literally cut their left arms off to make the kind of money that I'd be walking away from.

That said, I'll acknowledge that much of this is probably just in my head, and that a lot of it would be resolved by simply getting new friends. My wife is less concerned, largely because she dealt with similar behaviors when she left the workforce for a decade or so to be a stay-at-home mom. Many people reacted either with passive-aggressive jealousy ("must be nice to be able to sit around at home and not work!" - says the person who has no idea how much work it is to stay home with a few toddlers all day LOL), or with passive-aggressive scorn that staying home with kids is something that was beneath some people. Ultimately she found other friends for whom this wasn't an issue, but it kinda stunk for awhile. I got similar feedback when I brought it up to people, but for me it was easier to simply not bring it up at all and avoid / defer questions on my wife's career.

I will say - good to hear that your experience was better. Hoping that my experience will be similar - we will see :-)
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by sschullo »

After Enough:
The usual stuff after the "career," working for money. Never worked for money again, only did free stuff. I have actually found that even during my working years, the stuff I did without getting paid was more, a lot more rewarding, than my teaching career. I continued doing the volunteer things that I did after Enough.
1. Sharing with younger family members what I have discovered in stock and bond investing
2. Writing and giving away my two books on personal finance addressing the hideous 403(b) with public school districts
3. Private pilot training
4. Ballroom dancing lessons
5. Traveling around the world and visiting with relatives.
6. Volunteering on boards and committees, especially my 16 years on the Los Angeles Unified advisory investment committee for the 457(b). Our plan for cutting costs and selecting Vanguard funds got a Plan Design Award Award from the National Association of Government Defined Contribution Administrators.
7. Currently revising and updating my books.
8. Lost, recovered, and survived the loss of my first spouse of 40 years and remarried.
9. Greatly adjusted my portfolio to the preservation stage after "enough" and after massive losses during the tech bubble and crash.
10. Spoke at two American Cancer Society events about my cancer survival story.
11. Reading and reflecting on my life and life in general with a daily journal.

St. Jack talks a lot more about life's principles than just about having enough money. Here is my amazon review: https://www.amazon.com/product-reviews/ ... filter-bar
Never in the history of market day-traders’ has the obsession with so much massive, sophisticated, & powerful statistical machinery used by the brightest people on earth with such useless results.
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by EnjoyIt »

cockersx3 wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:49 am
marcopolo wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 7:45 pm
cockersx3 wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 6:40 pm
Wannaretireearly wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:48 am So, ‘more than enough’ for me will be when we become empty nesters (or close to), age 50 (a respectable age to quit imo, without a bunch of probing family/friend questions 🧐), and hopefully 40 times our expected (travel lavish) expenses in retirement.
Hoping that this is true, but not very confident about it. I'm on the cusp of turning 50, and also looking seriously at ER. I was actually concerned enough about those awkward questions that I switched to working for a consulting firm as a full-time WFH employee. Like I posted on another thread, people in my neighborhood are used to seeing me at home or taking walks during the day so I strongly doubt that anyone will even notice when we ER. Thankfully I work in a STEM field that, while not terribly complicated IMO, no one else really understands all that well - so very rarely does anyone ask me any probing questions about my job other than at a very high level ("so how's work going", etc). If someone asks I'll just say "fine." Stretching the truth maybe, but better than the awkward alternative.

In response to the OP - once we had enough, we dialed the work back quite a bit. The "career ladder" was very important to me pre-FI, but for now it just isn't important anymore. Wife is now working half-time, and with my new job (see above) I work only a fraction of the hours I did before in my MegaCorp role. After having a W-2 job since I was 14 years old, this seems like a great way to "wean" myself off of working and onto more of a life focus :-)
I don't understand this concern about "awkward" conversations.

I retired at 51 a few years ago. Most people I know noticed I had retired. Pretty much all of them were happy for me, with perhaps a little bit of good humored jealousy. I did not have a single "awkward" conversation that I can recall.

What do you think people will say to you to make it awkward?
Good question. I guess I'm concerned about the jealousy aspect of it. We live in an upper-middle-class neighborhood with people that tend to be very career focused, so I can see some people potentially looking down on us for not continuing to climb the ladder. I'm also a bit concerned about feedback from my family, in which the idea of not working at an early age (ie <60) would probably blow their minds. I think that all of them would literally cut their left arms off to make the kind of money that I'd be walking away from.

That said, I'll acknowledge that much of this is probably just in my head, and that a lot of it would be resolved by simply getting new friends. My wife is less concerned, largely because she dealt with similar behaviors when she left the workforce for a decade or so to be a stay-at-home mom. Many people reacted either with passive-aggressive jealousy ("must be nice to be able to sit around at home and not work!" - says the person who has no idea how much work it is to stay home with a few toddlers all day LOL), or with passive-aggressive scorn that staying home with kids is something that was beneath some people. Ultimately she found other friends for whom this wasn't an issue, but it kinda stunk for awhile. I got similar feedback when I brought it up to people, but for me it was easier to simply not bring it up at all and avoid / defer questions on my wife's career.

I will say - good to hear that your experience was better. Hoping that my experience will be similar - we will see :-)
When I walked away from climbing the corporate ladder to do what I want, many of the corporate types couldn’t understand it why I would walk away from all that money. It is literally millions of dollars. Maybe one day I’ll regret it. But today, I am healthier and enjoying life for more then when I was on the corporate treadmill.

Would I like more money? Absolutely.
Is the extra money worth giving up my free time and honestly my health? No way. Yesterday I was offered some relatively easy work but I would have to give up my Tuesday that I had set for a hobby. I said no. Just not worth it to me.
A time to EVALUATE your jitters: | viewtopic.php?p=1139732#p1139732
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by dboeger1 »

EnjoyIt wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:58 am When I walked away from climbing the corporate ladder to do what I want, many of the corporate types couldn’t understand it why I would walk away from all that money. It is literally millions of dollars. Maybe one day I’ll regret it. But today, I am healthier and enjoying life for more then when I was on the corporate treadmill.

Would I like more money? Absolutely.
Is the extra money worth giving up my free time and honestly my health? No way. Yesterday I was offered some relatively easy work but I would have to give up my Tuesday that I had set for a hobby. I said no. Just not worth it to me.
Sounds like you're rich. There should be a term analogous to "millionaire" for people with lots of time, energy, and freedom.
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by EnjoyIt »

dboeger1 wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:36 am
EnjoyIt wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:58 am When I walked away from climbing the corporate ladder to do what I want, many of the corporate types couldn’t understand it why I would walk away from all that money. It is literally millions of dollars. Maybe one day I’ll regret it. But today, I am healthier and enjoying life for more then when I was on the corporate treadmill.

Would I like more money? Absolutely.
Is the extra money worth giving up my free time and honestly my health? No way. Yesterday I was offered some relatively easy work but I would have to give up my Tuesday that I had set for a hobby. I said no. Just not worth it to me.
Sounds like you're rich. There should be a term analogous to "millionaire" for people with lots of time, energy, and freedom.
Rich is a relative term though I would agree with you, by most standards many would consider us rich. Plenty on this forum may not agree. What is more important though is that we have "enough." One can have $100 million, striving for more and more money trying to buy their way into happiness while another can have $1 million and it is enough to cover their wants and needs. Having $100 million is great, but having enough is better.

BTW, my comment above about giving up millions is continuing climbing corporate, making more money, and investing the extra money for almost 2 decades till I am 65 vs working part time as I do now 2-3 days a week in a less lucrative position.
A time to EVALUATE your jitters: | viewtopic.php?p=1139732#p1139732
dboeger1
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by dboeger1 »

EnjoyIt wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:50 am
dboeger1 wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:36 am
EnjoyIt wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:58 am When I walked away from climbing the corporate ladder to do what I want, many of the corporate types couldn’t understand it why I would walk away from all that money. It is literally millions of dollars. Maybe one day I’ll regret it. But today, I am healthier and enjoying life for more then when I was on the corporate treadmill.

Would I like more money? Absolutely.
Is the extra money worth giving up my free time and honestly my health? No way. Yesterday I was offered some relatively easy work but I would have to give up my Tuesday that I had set for a hobby. I said no. Just not worth it to me.
Sounds like you're rich. There should be a term analogous to "millionaire" for people with lots of time, energy, and freedom.
Rich is a relative term though I would agree with you, by most standards many would consider us rich. Plenty on this forum may not agree. What is more important though is that we have "enough." One can have $100 million, striving for more and more money trying to buy their way into happiness while another can have $1 million and it is enough to cover their wants and needs. Having $100 million is great, but having enough is better.

BTW, my comment above about giving up millions is continuing climbing corporate, making more money, and investing the extra money for almost 2 decades till I am 65 vs working part time as I do now 2-3 days a week in a less lucrative position.
Not sure if my point came across clearly, but I was suggesting that you are wealthy in terms of time and energy, which is arguably more valuable than money. I was not insinuating that you could only do that because you were rich or anything like that. It wasn't a criticism at all. Like you, I think people overvalue excess cash relative to the things you chose to prioritize.
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by CascadiaSoonish »

010101 wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:38 pm I have found that “Enough” is a mirage and the closer you get, the further away it looks.
I'm not exactly in the same boat, but close. But for my own mental health I'm defining "enough" as a broad set of circumstances rather than a quantifiable end goal. Rather than stressing myself out micromanaging our finances to hit some arbitrary set of goal numbers years in the future, I'm reminding myself that we'll have enough resources that we'll certainly be able to make it work one way or another. That's how I'm defining "enough" -- that we'll be fine and will have options in our future, not that I'm a failure if I only hit 39x rather than 40x at 60.

In practice this means I'm following a lot of the practices I read about here on Bogleheads and I've got a good idea of what I need to do to get to where we want to be in the future, but otherwise I'm not going to agonize over it. I'm going to get everything set up according to the principles and then go cook dinner or go to the gym or spend time with the family or read a book. I'm also job hunting right now and I'm not necessarily going to take the highest-paying position on offer; I'm going to pick what's interesting to me and will lead to professional fulfillment while still paying the bills.
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by EnjoyIt »

dboeger1 wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:58 am
EnjoyIt wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:50 am
dboeger1 wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:36 am
EnjoyIt wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:58 am When I walked away from climbing the corporate ladder to do what I want, many of the corporate types couldn’t understand it why I would walk away from all that money. It is literally millions of dollars. Maybe one day I’ll regret it. But today, I am healthier and enjoying life for more then when I was on the corporate treadmill.

Would I like more money? Absolutely.
Is the extra money worth giving up my free time and honestly my health? No way. Yesterday I was offered some relatively easy work but I would have to give up my Tuesday that I had set for a hobby. I said no. Just not worth it to me.
Sounds like you're rich. There should be a term analogous to "millionaire" for people with lots of time, energy, and freedom.
Rich is a relative term though I would agree with you, by most standards many would consider us rich. Plenty on this forum may not agree. What is more important though is that we have "enough." One can have $100 million, striving for more and more money trying to buy their way into happiness while another can have $1 million and it is enough to cover their wants and needs. Having $100 million is great, but having enough is better.

BTW, my comment above about giving up millions is continuing climbing corporate, making more money, and investing the extra money for almost 2 decades till I am 65 vs working part time as I do now 2-3 days a week in a less lucrative position.
Not sure if my point came across clearly, but I was suggesting that you are wealthy in terms of time and energy, which is arguably more valuable than money. I was not insinuating that you could only do that because you were rich or anything like that. It wasn't a criticism at all. Like you, I think people overvalue excess cash relative to the things you chose to prioritize.
Cheers dboeger1
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by AlphaLess »

doobiedoo wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 7:39 pm
AlphaLess wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:50 pm
010101 wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:38 pm I have found that “Enough” is a mirage and the closer you get, the further away it looks.
- When I was much younger, I dreamed of $1M. Then I got married and bought a house and was amazed at how much debt I was in.
- I got older and wiser and dreamed of $5M. Surely that was enough money to retire and sail away. Then we had a baby, got a bigger house and I was amazed at how expensive children were.
- I got even older and thought that when we hit $10M, surely then there would be enough money. That day has come and gone.

If anything, I’ve gotten even more aggressive in allocation as time has gone on.
The big picture I see here is that "Expenses" are a moving target.
Marriage, House, Furniture, Vacations, Kids
...
But data don't lie. When kids leave, and you have an empty nest, it gets cheaper.
Yes, I went thru that. And it's easy to get on the treadmill of bigger houses, better vacations, more this, more that.
But at some point, you have to limit expenses if you want financial independence. That means the house is big enough, no additional kids, don't need a boat, etc.

Prokofiev says it well.
Jazztonight wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:50 pm
Prokofiev wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:30 pm ...
If enough is not enough, you need to revisit the definition of the word. I used to think I could always use an extra million$ or so for some new adventure, business or hobby. But at some point in life, you simply can't improve your happiness. We travel at least 3 months a year, have all the house we will ever want and do whatever we please.
Peace of mind is now far more important than making more money.
A second factor is that your initial "number" is likely to be optimistic, i.e. low. The 25x expenses number is the standard, but everyone would feel better and more comfortable if that number was higher. So the number [goalpost] gets moved in order to lower risk. Nothing wrong with that the first time it happens.

But it does mean it's time to pick a number that you *ARE* comfortable with. Just like with expenses, if you keep moving the goalposts, you are only fooling yourself. The key is to pick a number *YOU* are comfortable with -- 25x, 40x, 50x, 75x, 100x?


And I agree with lobsterman2112 below.
lobsterman2112 wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:03 pm ...
I do plan to get more aggressive in my investing now that I've hit "Enough". Increase my stocks while keeping my bonds at a fixed dollar amount.
When you hit "Enough", your need to take on more risk goes down, but your ability to take on more risk goes up.
I lowered my equity allocation when I retired because I was worried about sequence risk. When SORR didn't happen and my portfolio and net worth went up instead, I went to a higher equity allocation. Equity risk is of less concern to me now than at any point in my financial life.
Excellent thread. Good words of wisdom.

Our initial number was $5, but we underestimated in a few departments:
- when you are not working, health-care is not free. Of course, when working, health-care is NOT free either, but somehow, you under-account for that. I am looking at COBRA rate x 1.25 + everything else we spend, which is close to $30K a year, so that is additional,
- for X dollars of withdrawal, need to have at least 15% of tax. So, net after tax we can keep is X / 1.15.

When you do the math that way, say, "y" was our old number. Then X is:
- y + 30K for healthcare,
- (y + $30K) * 1.15 for tax portion,
- maybe add in some inflation.

If you decide to retire 5 years later, you need to account for 5 years of inflation.

General inflation might be 2.2%, but your own inflation might be 3.5%.

Problem is, when looking 5 years ahead, and saying, I need $5 in five years, you account for the growth of assets, but not inflation.

And the last point is: asset multipliers. In 5 years, asset multipliers (PE ratio, Shiller PE, whatever PE, bond yield), could be lower, which means need more conservative assumptions.

Looking at x=264K, plus health care portion of 30K, adds up to 300K. x 1.15 for taxes, you have 345.
We are north of $10M, but I figured, it does not hurt to get to $20M, especially since can be done in the next 2-3 years.

Say, with $20M on Jan 1 2025, even with 3.5% annual inflation between Jan 1 2022 and Jan 1 2025, our number would be around $382K. Call it $400. I figured we can probably make do with 2.00% W/D rate to begin with.
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

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TheTimeLord wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:24 pm Over the last 3 years with VTI returning 31.67%, 21.03% and 25.67% I am sure there are lots of BH who have gone from "Enough" to well north of enough. So how has getting to whatever comes after "Enough" changed your investing or did you just leave things the way they were?
After "enough" comes more options. You can certainly stop playing the game (significantly reduce risk). But you can also stay the course with your investments and decide to spend more (either on yourself, or on others).

For me personally, I decided to retire lean (with less money than planned, a little more frugal lifestyle, and alot more time with family & friends). Although I'm fairly conservative in my numbers (spending about 35% less than my VPW calculation allows), so I hope to get back to "more than enough" so I can be more aggressive with my charitable giving. [so... I'm in the "stay the course" camp]
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by deltaneutral83 »

I'll probably spend more time on BH and start threads about my 14 year old Camry and finally give definitive unicorn-esque guidance on Domestic vs International.
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by Brianmcg321 »

Svensk Anga wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:32 pm I'm just waiting for Mr. Market to adjust our portfolio back to enough.
This reminded me of a poster called "The Man with the Hammer". It's a reference to when endurance athletes or cyclists in particular get the bonks. I made a meme out of it.

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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by james22 »

I can imagine Satisfiers reaching enough, but Maximizers?

Retired, I withdraw <3%/year with 50% discretionary spending.

By definition that's probably enough, but it doesn't feel that way to me.

I'm also sure at a significantly lower withdrawal rate I'd then only feel pressure to take advantage of my savings and would up my discretionary spending to get back to withdrawing ~3%/year.
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by goldendad »

goldendad wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:20 pm My wife and I plan set up a fund to pay for the college educations of our grandchildren and great grandchildren. In addition, I have spent a lot more time volunteering at our church as a minister.
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

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What comes after "enough"?......a stock market decline and investors doubting if they have now have "enough".
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by marcopolo »

goodenyou wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 6:48 pm What comes after "enough"?......a stock market decline and investors doubting if they have now have "enough".
If a 10, 20, or even 30% drop in the markets has one questioning if they have enough, then I would posit they never had enough to begin with.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

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goodenyou wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 6:48 pm What comes after "enough"?......a stock market decline and investors doubting if they have now have "enough".
Funny you mention that. I was just thinking this evening that my reaction to this drawdown is sort of validation of having more than "Enough".
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Re: So what comes after "Enough"

Post by goodenyou »

TheTimeLord wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:33 pm
goodenyou wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 6:48 pm What comes after "enough"?......a stock market decline and investors doubting if they have now have "enough".
Funny you mention that. I was just thinking this evening that my reaction to this drawdown is sort of validation of having more than "Enough".
That is a sign that you have reached enough. So far at least. I surely hope that validation doesn’t change for all of our sake.
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