Behavioral Changes as Investment Wealth Outpaces Income

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YoungSisyphus
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Behavioral Changes as Investment Wealth Outpaces Income

Post by YoungSisyphus »

Hello,

I was interested in hearing any perspectives on the impact to behaviors as investment portfolio balances begin to significantly outpace even high levels of salary contributions coming in. I noticed it last week when the daily fluctuations in my accounts were >$10k. It's strange to see your net worth remain flat or decline despite healthy paychecks. I am finding that it's harder for me to appreciate the worth of a dollar and the normal frugality I have when it doesn't feel like modest changes in spending make up an outsized part of my net worth.

Curious for older Bogleheaders that have hit this point what, if anything, you do to stay more grounded.
Nathan Drake
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Re: Behavioral Changes as Investment Wealth Outpaces Income

Post by Nathan Drake »

All it takes is a good old fashioned prolonged bear market to appreciate the benefit of new contributions

We haven't had one of those in a very long time if you're largely a US TSM investor
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steve r
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Re: Behavioral Changes as Investment Wealth Outpaces Income

Post by steve r »

I here you. Same boat.
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Re: Behavioral Changes as Investment Wealth Outpaces Income

Post by Wanderingwheelz »

I can’t think of any behavioral changes, but it’s fair to say my attitude/feelings/opinions as they relate to to my investments might have changed somewhat.
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Re: Behavioral Changes as Investment Wealth Outpaces Income

Post by jebmke »

Try only looking once a month. You might find that the fluctuations are not as much.
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Re: Behavioral Changes as Investment Wealth Outpaces Income

Post by KlangFool »

OP,

1) I saves a lot of money but I am not frugal. I spend as much as I save. I do "Pay Yourself First" saving method. So, I never think about my spending. My portfolio growth does not change this part of my behavior.

2) My portfolio growth exceeds my gross salary and I am financially independent. I am an engineer. I work for fun. I can say no for any non-interesting stuff. I no longer willing to deal with boring stuff.

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YoungSisyphus
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Re: Behavioral Changes as Investment Wealth Outpaces Income

Post by YoungSisyphus »

KlangFool wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:19 pm OP,

1) I saves a lot of money but I am not frugal. I spend as much as I save. I do "Pay Yourself First" saving method. So, I never think about my spending. My portfolio growth does not change this part of my behavior.

2) My portfolio growth exceeds my gross salary and I am financially independent. I am an engineer. I work for fun. I can say no for any non-interesting stuff. I no longer willing to deal with boring stuff.

KlangFool
I like your #1, and I may have #2 be a goal (I am not there yet - or I may have been with the last year's outsized growth, but certainly don't expect it consistently).

I think I may answer my own question with building an IPS and separate investment monitoring / performance from saving objectives I hold myself to in-year. Fidelity as a one stop shop may actually be hurting me in that regard.
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YoungSisyphus
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Re: Behavioral Changes as Investment Wealth Outpaces Income

Post by YoungSisyphus »

Nathan Drake wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:32 pm All it takes is a good old fashioned prolonged bear market to appreciate the benefit of new contributions

We haven't had one of those in a very long time if you're largely a US TSM investor
Yes, considering I have been in the post-college job market starting in 2011.. it is certainly not something that I am used to.. yet.
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Kenkat
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Re: Behavioral Changes as Investment Wealth Outpaces Income

Post by Kenkat »

There will come a point where you will probably realize that there is little you can do in terms of contributions to make a material impact on your overall portfolio value. The portfolio becomes so large in comparison to money flowing in that the return on the portfolio is all that matters. On big market move days, my portfolio goes up (or down) more than my entire annual contributions. The die is cast; you are just spitting in the ocean with new money.

It’s a good thing but a strange feeling after saving and investing for many years.
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YoungSisyphus
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Re: Behavioral Changes as Investment Wealth Outpaces Income

Post by YoungSisyphus »

Kenkat wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 6:12 pm There will come a point where you will probably realize that there is little you can do in terms of contributions to make a material impact on your overall portfolio value. The portfolio becomes so large in comparison to money flowing in that the return on the portfolio is all that matters. On big market move days, my portfolio goes up (or down) more than my entire annual contributions. The die is cast; you are just spitting in the ocean with new money.

It’s a good thing but a strange feeling after saving and investing for many years.
It's funny, I was thinking of a water analogy about this problem. Spitting in the ocean is better than anything I was coming up with. :mrgreen:
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Re: Behavioral Changes as Investment Wealth Outpaces Income

Post by delamer »

As an older, retired Boglehead, I frequently find myself looking a purchases through the lens of “percentage of portfolio.”

I’m struggling a bit right now with paying more for a new vehicle than I’m typically comfortable doing. But, in fact, the difference of $10,000 to $15,000 (over my normal comfort level) is absolutely irrelevant when I think in terms of my portfolio.

And I’ve only got so many new vehicles left to buy. :wink:
One thing that humbles me deeply is to see that human genius has its limits while human stupidity does not. - Alexandre Dumas, fils
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Kenkat
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Re: Behavioral Changes as Investment Wealth Outpaces Income

Post by Kenkat »

YoungSisyphus wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 6:15 pm
Kenkat wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 6:12 pm There will come a point where you will probably realize that there is little you can do in terms of contributions to make a material impact on your overall portfolio value. The portfolio becomes so large in comparison to money flowing in that the return on the portfolio is all that matters. On big market move days, my portfolio goes up (or down) more than my entire annual contributions. The die is cast; you are just spitting in the ocean with new money.

It’s a good thing but a strange feeling after saving and investing for many years.
It's funny, I was thinking of a water analogy about this problem. Spitting in the ocean is better than anything I was coming up with. :mrgreen:
It took me a few minutes to come up with spitting as my first choices were not exactly family friendly :D
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Re: Behavioral Changes as Investment Wealth Outpaces Income

Post by Candor »

I just envision a decade or more of the market going nowhere or worse and that usually slaps me out of my feeling a little full of myself. That can happen any time and I keep that in mind although I am retired so this scenario would have an outsized impact on me compared to someone in accumulation mode.
The fool, with all his other faults, has this also - he is always getting ready to live. - Seneca Epistles < c. 65AD
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riverant
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Re: Behavioral Changes as Investment Wealth Outpaces Income

Post by riverant »

YoungSisyphus wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:18 pm Hello,

I was interested in hearing any perspectives on the impact to behaviors as investment portfolio balances begin to significantly outpace even high levels of salary contributions coming in. I noticed it last week when the daily fluctuations in my accounts were >$10k. It's strange to see your net worth remain flat or decline despite healthy paychecks. I am finding that it's harder for me to appreciate the worth of a dollar and the normal frugality I have when it doesn't feel like modest changes in spending make up an outsized part of my net worth.

Curious for older Bogleheaders that have hit this point what, if anything, you do to stay more grounded.

You can build a financial model to see how much more/faster your net worth will increase with consistently high contributions vs without. Pick a theoretical FI number to shoot for and measure against.
shess
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Re: Behavioral Changes as Investment Wealth Outpaces Income

Post by shess »

YoungSisyphus wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:18 pm Hello,

I was interested in hearing any perspectives on the impact to behaviors as investment portfolio balances begin to significantly outpace even high levels of salary contributions coming in. I noticed it last week when the daily fluctuations in my accounts were >$10k. It's strange to see your net worth remain flat or decline despite healthy paychecks. I am finding that it's harder for me to appreciate the worth of a dollar and the normal frugality I have when it doesn't feel like modest changes in spending make up an outsized part of my net worth.

Curious for older Bogleheaders that have hit this point what, if anything, you do to stay more grounded.
I mean, if you're lucky, at some point you'll have a down day higher than your yearly salary. I have year to have an up day that large, but I can dream! Well, I guess since I'm retired I HAVE had such an up day, but you know what I mean.

Something that I noticed is that as the numbers got past my new inputs, they started to become very abstract. In part this was because they had to be. Obviously, if I buy a new car just because I have an up day big enough to buy that car, I would soon have to go back to work. Just as obviously, if I freaked out any time I had a down day greater than I used to get paid in a year, I would spend a lot of time out of the market and miss the up days. So I've worked hard towards an attitude of "Oh, that's interesting. Oh, that's REALLY interesting. OK, three days in a row, I don't care for that that."

Lastly, my own approach on saving money, investing in I-bonds, taking advantage of a bank or brokerage bonus, etc, is to evaluate things based not not only on their contribution to relative returns, but also on their contribution relative to the cost of doing the work. If I can add .5%/year to returns with a few hours of work, of course I'll do that! But if I can earn an extra $1k with an hour of work, I'll probably do that, too. $1k/hour is, IMHO, a quite reasonable pay scale. I mean, it's case by case, depending on the kind of work needed, and the certainty of the payoff.

Specific example: Shifting $10k into an I-bond to get a 7% return which will probably fall back to 1.5% in a few years? Worth the time to get an extra $500 or so. Probably not worth the time if I thought it would go negative in a year.
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Re: Behavioral Changes as Investment Wealth Outpaces Income

Post by asset_chaos »

When you start out, net worth growth is dominated by savings rate, but, yes, if you save and invest early enough and with big enough chunks of your earnings, your net worth growth will, in all likelyhood, eventually converge towards market growth. I recall the change making an impression when I noticed that growth of my IRA balance became regularly larger from appreciation than from contributions (limited to $2k a year in those days).

While it can be difficult to tell, I was not conscious of behavioral changes due solely to having a larger investing account balance. I enjoyed my work and continued to focus mostly on success there and left the investing on auto pilot. However, there are behavoral changes that occur to most of us as we get older. When I coupled up and we had children and a mortgage, my savings rate went from 50% of gross income to 20%. A natural decision to spend more to "purchase" the family life we wanted, but certainly decisions that indirectly effect investment growth.

One second thought, there was one behavorial change: I started to read more about investing and started to read finance boards (I'm old, so these pre-dated bogleheads). I did have a period where I went in for slicing and dicing more, but by the time kids came along I had so much more to do, I resimplified the portfolio.

Towards the end of my work-for-pay career, I probably was influenced to say certain things, to accept or decline certain assignments, by the fact that the financial position could by that time easily support comfortable retirement. When I became conscious of having what is colloquially called f-you money, I did notice behavioral change creep in---but not towards investing.

Good luck in your life journey.
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Re: Behavioral Changes as Investment Wealth Outpaces Income

Post by Brianmcg321 »

Compounding is an amazing thing.

This past year my return has been more than all the money I have invested since 1996. And more than 4 years salary. Crazy when you get to that point.
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Re: Behavioral Changes as Investment Wealth Outpaces Income

Post by tooluser »

Keep plowing and sowing the field. The marginal gain on your continuing investments will be significant. Also, the continuing gain on your marginal investments will be significant.
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Re: Behavioral Changes as Investment Wealth Outpaces Income

Post by RetiredAL »

I've recently arrived at the point where the DAILY swings are equal to withdrawals I need to cover my YEARLY expenses.

I don't think that will materially change my behavior, but my self satisfaction has noted it.

Getting my mindset out of Dollars and into Percents many years back was helpful.
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Re: Behavioral Changes as Investment Wealth Outpaces Income

Post by Activesloth »

Believe it or not, some people are not affected by their net worth. I’m 64 and retired. My wife is a busy health care provider. In 2020, our investment returns were 5X her annual salary. In 2021, it was 4X. It hasn’t changed us one bit. I still drive a humble Honda Civic, and don’t feel like I’m depriving myself. I enjoy long walks, so I buy a new pair of walking shoes every year. At my age, there are few material things I want to buy anymore. We’re not frugal, we just don’t need much. No behavioral changes necessary here.
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Re: Behavioral Changes as Investment Wealth Outpaces Income

Post by AnnetteLouisan »

Great name, OP and excellent question. Staying tethered and grounded is really key to surviving (a term I use advisedly) great fluctuations in wealth, especially while still employed but really at all stages. Helpful is to identify your core values and priorities and keep behavior and spending aligned to those values.

Losses compel groundedness, but increases in wealth require a fidelity to first principles and can be harder to manage, since for many they are uncharted territory. We all want to be good stewards of what we have, but how do we do that day to day given the human tendencies (to show off, to slack off, to want excitement, to feel superior, to seek love and admiration, to compete)? We see spectacular examples daily of the failure to manage hubris. Among my friends, I’ve seen them overreact to both gains and losses and take imprudent actions to their own detriment. Some felt tricked in 08 and became unmoored. Own your decisions, always explore your assumptions.

Most powerful is he who has himself in his own power, said Seneca, and its so true. For me (two commas but not as affluent as most here), yoga, meditation, journaling, qigong, reading, planning, consulting with others, faith, and some basic ground rules about taking a breath, not doing anything in haste or due to emotion have served me well, although it’s a daily struggle and I’m not there yet. I also limit the noise I’m exposed to. Wealth, to the degree I have it, helps me enjoy my job more and be less bothered by day to day annoyances.

Books I suggest (beyond the excellent recommended BH books) are:
We Need to Talk, a memoir about wealth
The Number
Stop Acting Rich
Millionaire Next Door
Your Money or Your Life
Simplify Your Life
Last edited by AnnetteLouisan on Tue Dec 07, 2021 7:25 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Behavioral Changes as Investment Wealth Outpaces Income

Post by sailaway »

I find the regular fluctuations fascinating, but basically meaningless. Can't spend that +1.8% because tomorrow it could just as well be -2%.

While DH is still employed, I remind myself that habits really do matter in the long term. We could spend his entire income this year and it would not affect our long term plans, but it could change our habits and that would definitely affect our long term plans!

We maintain frugality in our day to day life, but splurge a bit more on things that are important to us, especially on things that let us spend time with family. Our savings rate has dipped a little in 2021, as we make up for family time, as well as boat projects and orthodontics. The plan for 2021 includes a significant spending downgrade as we leave the rental and go back to living on the boat, but we have also agreed to join my parents on a river cruise.
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Dioremius
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Re: Behavioral Changes as Investment Wealth Outpaces Income

Post by Dioremius »

I know some folks who became very rich from cryptocurrency investments. The typical effects are fascinating.

They are definitely in the situation the OP describes: having many millions of dollars in super volatile assets means daily fluctuations are often much larger than annual salary.

Interestingly and contrary to stereotype, they're all still hard at work, and for most of them, lifestyle creep has been pretty modest. Sure, they may rent a better-located apartment or buy a nicer car... but they could buy a mansion and a yacht. So on be-frugal-and-save, they get good marks.

I think a big part of it is that riches sprung up on them too quickly, and in too weird a form, to feel real (especially if not yet realized to USD). So they just continue with the momentum that brought them to crypto in the first place: initiative, curiosity and hard work. Good for them!

[OT comments removed by admin LadyGeek]

Their investment habits, however, are typically abysmal - as you'd expect from people who have had great success with hyperconcentrated (sometimes leveraged, often sheer-luck) positions in hypervolatile assets devoid of fundamentals. "Diversification" for them means buying 3 more cryptocurrencies and playing another DeFi protocol. Some can be convinced to mildly rebalance into stocks funds, but I got some very strange looks when suggesting a bonds allocation.

I wonder how often similar dynamics apply to the TSLA-rich and other windfalls.
Last edited by Dioremius on Sun Dec 05, 2021 9:23 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Behavioral Changes as Investment Wealth Outpaces Income

Post by Zeno »

It is an insightful question, OP.

Watching our "x" grow via the passive portfolio, with the "x" ultimately greatly outstripping my annual wage year after year, was eye-opening. Our portfolio currently generates five times what I earn in salary. The gains are not yet recognized, of course, so I don't take anything for granted. We aren't counting our chickens before they are hatched as our chicken coop could burn down tomorrow.

For me, there are two answers to your question. First, I obviously came to recognize the diminishing role of the need for, and importance of, wage income. Prior to that, I naively thought my career was important. I had an ego tied to my job. Sadly and pathetically, I thought my career persona was important. Once the portfolio took over, all of that changed deep in the recesses of my mind.

Second, I became more philosophical, asking questions of myself such as "Was all of this worth it?" "Why am I here?" "What is my purpose?" "Maybe I don't have a purpose?" "If I am no longer working, do I have a purpose?" More deeply, I came to question societal models and the role of labor. Harari's "Sapiens: A Short History of Humankind" was deeply influential. Maybe the hunter gathers somehow worked less hard than the current generation of office-bound employees. We are born alone and die alone. We work for decades in between to try to eek out an existence at the end. Is that why we are here? That got me reading more physics and cosmology, too.

There is some risk to all of this too, I suppose, if these recognitions arrive relatively early in one's career as incentives could change, and not always for the better. It didn't happen for me until I was in my 50's, which meant the wick of my career was already well on the way of burning down.
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Re: Behavioral Changes as Investment Wealth Outpaces Income

Post by AnnetteLouisan »

Change causes emotional stress. I’ve seen intelligent and accomplished people become unmoored in 1999 and 2009. Alan Toffler described it in his 1970s bestseller, Future Shock.

I think it’s useful to recognize this is a time of euphoria in the markets and radical changes all around us and to just make sure we are taking care of ourselves and our loved ones as far as health, safety, focus and prudence.

Waves are high and the stakes are high.
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YoungSisyphus
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Re: Behavioral Changes as Investment Wealth Outpaces Income

Post by YoungSisyphus »

I want to thank everyone for their replies. Too much to quote and respond to individually, but truly find your insights and personal lessons helpful for me on my path. Thank you for taking the time to share - the shared wisdom from Bogleheads makes this my favorite place to go online.
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Re: Behavioral Changes as Investment Wealth Outpaces Income

Post by dogagility »

RetiredAL wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:34 pm Getting my mindset out of Dollars and into Percents many years back was helpful.
This. :beer
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Re: Behavioral Changes as Investment Wealth Outpaces Income

Post by firebirdparts »

Everybody is different, I think. Luckily life is actually pretty slow and we have time to get used to it.

I look at percents too, have to. Can't make any sense out of it otherwise. But I can't help but notice the waves in that totalized number at the top of the brokerage web site!
This time is the same
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Re: Behavioral Changes as Investment Wealth Outpaces Income

Post by David Jay »

YoungSisyphus wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:18 pmI am finding that it's harder for me to appreciate the worth of a dollar and the normal frugality.
The danger here, if one is targeting early retirement, is lifestyle bloat. Retirement calculation is X times expenses. For a given portfolio balance, when you grow your spending you delay your retirement.
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Re: Behavioral Changes as Investment Wealth Outpaces Income

Post by dknightd »

Eventually I decided to make a BIG Behavioral Change. I decided to retire. So far I have not regretted that decision.
Retired 2019. So far, so good. I want to wake up every morning. But I want to die in my sleep. Just another conundrum. I think the solution might be afternoon naps ;)
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