The risk of DEATH ---- under-discussed on this forum?

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HomerJ
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Re: The risk of DEATH ---- under-discussed on this forum?

Post by HomerJ »

JoeRetire wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:12 pm
HomerJ wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:53 pm
JoeRetire wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:05 pm
surfstar wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:59 pm Meh - 8+ hours a day doing something that you don't want to do - that's not my "best life".
Fortunately, I found a way to spend 55+ hours per week on average, doing something I enjoyed doing.
Why did you retire then?
It was time. As the saying goes "all things must pass."

Over my career, when the particular job stopped being enjoyable, I found a new one. That started to be the case with my final job. I decided that it was time to wrap up a long career.
Okay, so there came a time when working any job wasn't more enjoyable than not working.

Which is what others are saying. They would rather not be working. So you should understand where they are coming from.
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HomerJ
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Re: The risk of DEATH ---- under-discussed on this forum?

Post by HomerJ »

JoeRetire wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:16 pm
HomerJ wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:55 pm
JoeRetire wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:33 pm
nisiprius wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:27 pm My parents each smoked three packs a day and neither of them lived to collect Social Security, so I get it, but, again, the variability of life span is large compared to the predictive power of things you can easily determine.
True.

My parents both smoked 3 packs a day and live until their mid 80s and late 80s.

Fortunately for me, having learned from their bad example, I have never smoked.
What did you learn? Why was their example bad?
I learned that smoking is unhealthy. It was in all the news reports. You could even Google it these days.
Sure, but THEIR example seemed to disprove all those news reports since they lived until their mid 80s and late 80s...

I was just messing with you, since you like precise communication. :D
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visualguy
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Re: The risk of DEATH ---- under-discussed on this forum?

Post by visualguy »

willthrill81 wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:27 pm
visualguy wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:25 am
willthrill81 wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:51 am
randomguy wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:45 am
afan wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:24 am I do not view dying with ample resources left behind as a "risk" to be avoided.
The risk is not doing the things you want because you died before doing them or waited too long to do them. But it isn't like you can't do a ton of living when you are working or between jobs.
My FiL was a prime example. He always wanted to tour the country in an RV and to see the Grand Canyon in particular. But he was diagnosed with kidney cancer at 62, and his health quickly went downhill. He passed away at 65 and never got to do the traveling he really wanted to. His experience and that of others' I've personally known has been a big impetus in me pushing to retire at age 45.
These types of situations are something that I'm not sure I understand. Touring the country in an RV may be time consuming, but visiting the Grand Canyon and other major national parks isn't all that time consuming or expensive, and should be easily doable during working years. Why even wait for retirement to do such things if it's something you really want to do?
People often get their true priorities mixed up in the course of daily living.
That definitely happens. However, it means that even though it was the "true priority", it wasn't perceived to be that at the time. It's more of a hindsight analysis which can be a bit confusing. There are things that I regret not having done when I was younger, but the reality is that I didn't want to do them, or didn't want to do them badly-enough at the time, and I don't really know what to make of those kinds of things. They are mistakes, but not really related to work vs retirement. More related to making some wrong choices about actions and inactions at a certain point in time which were not clear at the time, but became clear in hindsight.
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Re: The risk of DEATH ---- under-discussed on this forum?

Post by Sheepdog »

Well, nothing to discuss. I have reached 88, have money left over, have a great spouse. The kids like us. The dogs and cats appreciate us. When it comes it comes.

Talk to you later. We are going out shopping in a few minutes. then eat out. Tomorrow we will eat out again and attend a symphony. What more should I discuss?
8-)
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Re: The risk of DEATH ---- under-discussed on this forum?

Post by Dottie57 »

DesertDiva wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:13 am
Dottie57 wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:19 pm My concern is the 18% chance of being alive between 91 and 110.
So the real risk is Living. After Death, your risks cease.
Agree. As someone else said death is a certainty.
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JoeRetire
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Re: The risk of DEATH ---- under-discussed on this forum?

Post by JoeRetire »

HomerJ wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:57 pm
JoeRetire wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:12 pm
HomerJ wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:53 pm
JoeRetire wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:05 pm
surfstar wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:59 pm Meh - 8+ hours a day doing something that you don't want to do - that's not my "best life".
Fortunately, I found a way to spend 55+ hours per week on average, doing something I enjoyed doing.
Why did you retire then?
It was time. As the saying goes "all things must pass."

Over my career, when the particular job stopped being enjoyable, I found a new one. That started to be the case with my final job. I decided that it was time to wrap up a long career.
Okay, so there came a time when working any job wasn't more enjoyable than not working.

Which is what others are saying. They would rather not be working. So you should understand where they are coming from.
I understand. I feel bad for them.
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JoeRetire
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Re: The risk of DEATH ---- under-discussed on this forum?

Post by JoeRetire »

HomerJ wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:58 pm
JoeRetire wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:16 pm
HomerJ wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:55 pm
JoeRetire wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:33 pm
nisiprius wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:27 pm My parents each smoked three packs a day and neither of them lived to collect Social Security, so I get it, but, again, the variability of life span is large compared to the predictive power of things you can easily determine.
True.

My parents both smoked 3 packs a day and live until their mid 80s and late 80s.

Fortunately for me, having learned from their bad example, I have never smoked.
What did you learn? Why was their example bad?
I learned that smoking is unhealthy. It was in all the news reports. You could even Google it these days.
Sure, but THEIR example seemed to disprove all those news reports since they lived until their mid 80s and late 80s...

I was just messing with you, since you like precise communication. :D
You seem to be conflating health and longevity. I learned that they aren't the same.
And of course a few anecdotes never serve to disprove anything.
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Re: The risk of DEATH ---- under-discussed on this forum?

Post by afan »

I love hiking but I could not imagine taking months to do the entire Appalachian trail.

I knew an elderly person who moved out of their house and into independent living at a CCRC. They could have afforded to have people come in to help but they did not want to. During their time at the community, moved to assisted living and then to skilled nursing. Was there for years. Loved it. Staying at home was isolated, a major problem at all times and particularly when they stopped driving. Staying at home meant being closed off to much of the house by stairs. It meant having few friends around. At the CCRC, they had someone else to cook and clean, a facility made for people with limited mobility, staff around if they needed help and most important, a community of friends. They would go to the dining room as soon as it opened for dinner and hangout there. Table hop to meet and greet people as they came and went and spend much of the evening there. It was way better than sitting in an empty house.

How long someone can survive while needing skilled nursing care depends on what is wrong and why they need help. My friend was at the CCRC for about 15 years. Several years were in skilled nursing. They were not ice climbing in Alaska or jumping out of airplanes. But they were comfortable, well cared for and happy. Which is what counts.

We budget for spending decades in a skilled facility. Is that likely to happen? No. But it a good way of preparing for an expensive last part of life. With no need for cars or a house, with most medical bills covered by Medicare and resources sufficient to pay for a nice facility, if we can afford that then we should be set.

I still do not understand the "risk" of working longer than needed.

We passed that point long ago. I do not understand the either/or of working versus "living." I have continued to work past the need for the money, yet I am very much alive. I am exactly as alive as I would have been if I had retired 10 years ago. By continuing to work I have avoided 10 years of boredom with no professional accomplishments to show for them.
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Walkure
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Re: The risk of DEATH ---- under-discussed on this forum?

Post by Walkure »

A few observations.

It is inefficient to use insurance to prepay routine expenses. It is also inefficient to not insure against low probability risks. Keep these two separate and all the risk of "outliving" or "underspending" goes away.

Avoid creating a situation where you are worth more to your heirs presumptive dead than alive. No one wants to be unwanted. :shock:
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Re: The risk of DEATH ---- under-discussed on this forum?

Post by JoeRetire »

afan wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:54 pm I still do not understand the "risk" of working longer than needed.
Some people hate working. Thus the risk is doing something you hate longer than absolutely necessary.
We passed that point long ago. I do not understand the either/or of working versus "living." I have continued to work past the need for the money, yet I am very much alive. I am exactly as alive as I would have been if I had retired 10 years ago. By continuing to work I have avoided 10 years of boredom with no professional accomplishments to show for them.
Many people use the term "living" not in the sense of life versus death, but in the sense of "living the way I prefer to live". And in this context of course, they mean not-working versus working.

Your experience of working past the day you could afford to stop is more the norm. But not everyone is bored in retirement (I know I am not at all bored).
Last edited by JoeRetire on Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The risk of DEATH ---- under-discussed on this forum?

Post by HomerJ »

JoeRetire wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:31 pm
HomerJ wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:57 pm
JoeRetire wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:12 pm
HomerJ wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:53 pm
JoeRetire wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:05 pm

Fortunately, I found a way to spend 55+ hours per week on average, doing something I enjoyed doing.
Why did you retire then?
It was time. As the saying goes "all things must pass."

Over my career, when the particular job stopped being enjoyable, I found a new one. That started to be the case with my final job. I decided that it was time to wrap up a long career.
Okay, so there came a time when working any job wasn't more enjoyable than not working.

Which is what others are saying. They would rather not be working. So you should understand where they are coming from.
I understand. I feel bad for them.
Do you feel bad for yourself then? Since you currently would rather not be working?

Is it sad that you currently feel that way? Should we all feel bad for you? Because I will feel sorry for you if you want.
"The best tools available to us are shovels, not scalpels. Don't get carried away." - vanBogle59
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JoeRetire
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Re: The risk of DEATH ---- under-discussed on this forum?

Post by JoeRetire »

HomerJ wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:02 pm
JoeRetire wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:31 pm
HomerJ wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:57 pm
JoeRetire wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:12 pm
HomerJ wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:53 pm

Why did you retire then?
It was time. As the saying goes "all things must pass."

Over my career, when the particular job stopped being enjoyable, I found a new one. That started to be the case with my final job. I decided that it was time to wrap up a long career.
Okay, so there came a time when working any job wasn't more enjoyable than not working.

Which is what others are saying. They would rather not be working. So you should understand where they are coming from.
I understand. I feel bad for them.
Do you feel bad for yourself then? Since you currently would rather not be working?
Not at all. I enjoyed my working years. And I am enjoying my not-working years. Apparently, others don't/didn't.

When you enjoy your days without regard to working or not working, there's never a need to feel bad for yourself.
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HomerJ
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Re: The risk of DEATH ---- under-discussed on this forum?

Post by HomerJ »

JoeRetire wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:33 pm
HomerJ wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:58 pm
JoeRetire wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:16 pm
HomerJ wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:55 pm
JoeRetire wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:33 pm

True.

My parents both smoked 3 packs a day and live until their mid 80s and late 80s.

Fortunately for me, having learned from their bad example, I have never smoked.
What did you learn? Why was their example bad?
I learned that smoking is unhealthy. It was in all the news reports. You could even Google it these days.
Sure, but THEIR example seemed to disprove all those news reports since they lived until their mid 80s and late 80s...

I was just messing with you, since you like precise communication. :D
You seem to be conflating health and longevity. I learned that they aren't the same.
And of course a few anecdotes never serve to disprove anything.
You said you learned from their example. It sounds like you learned from news reports, not from their example. Their example (an anecdote you provided) actually would have taught you the opposite lesson. Good thing you actually listened to the news reports rather than trying to learn from their example.
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JoeRetire
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Re: The risk of DEATH ---- under-discussed on this forum?

Post by JoeRetire »

HomerJ wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:06 pmYou said you learned from their example. It sounds like you learned from news reports, not from their example.
Sorry, no. I saw what smoking did to their health. I didn't need news reports for that.
Their example (an anecdote you provided) actually would have taught you the opposite lesson. Good thing you actually listened to the news reports rather than trying to learn from their example.
Sorry if my story confused you.
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HomerJ
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Re: The risk of DEATH ---- under-discussed on this forum?

Post by HomerJ »

JoeRetire wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:04 pm
HomerJ wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:02 pm
JoeRetire wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:31 pm
HomerJ wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:57 pm
JoeRetire wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:12 pm
It was time. As the saying goes "all things must pass."

Over my career, when the particular job stopped being enjoyable, I found a new one. That started to be the case with my final job. I decided that it was time to wrap up a long career.
Okay, so there came a time when working any job wasn't more enjoyable than not working.

Which is what others are saying. They would rather not be working. So you should understand where they are coming from.
I understand. I feel bad for them.
Do you feel bad for yourself then? Since you currently would rather not be working?
Not at all. I enjoyed my working years. And I am enjoying my not-working years. Apparently, others don't/didn't.

When you enjoy your days without regard to working or not working, there's never a need to feel bad for yourself.
Ah, the trick then is to stop working the exact moment you don't enjoy it more than not working, just like you did.

And then you are never unhappy.

Well, assuming you have saved enough money.

Good lesson!
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Re: The risk of DEATH ---- under-discussed on this forum?

Post by JoeRetire »

HomerJ wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:09 pm
JoeRetire wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:04 pm
HomerJ wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:02 pm
JoeRetire wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:31 pm
HomerJ wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:57 pm

Okay, so there came a time when working any job wasn't more enjoyable than not working.

Which is what others are saying. They would rather not be working. So you should understand where they are coming from.
I understand. I feel bad for them.
Do you feel bad for yourself then? Since you currently would rather not be working?
Not at all. I enjoyed my working years. And I am enjoying my not-working years. Apparently, others don't/didn't.

When you enjoy your days without regard to working or not working, there's never a need to feel bad for yourself.
Ah, the trick then is to stop working the exact moment you don't enjoy it more than not working, just like you did.

And then you are never unhappy.

Well, assuming you have saved enough money.

Good lesson!
I think the trick is to have a job that makes you happy and a retirement that makes you happy. Then you are never unhappy.
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Re: The risk of DEATH ---- under-discussed on this forum?

Post by shess »

visualguy wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:11 pm I'm with you, but different strokes for different folks. You couldn't pay me enough to go rock climbing, travel the country in an RV, or hike the Appalachian trail, but people enjoy different things. I'd definitely rather do my work than any of those things.
I'm retired early, and I'd LOVE to hike the Appalachian Trail (or the Colorado Trail, etc).

Unfortunately, I find that I have little to no interest in doing the training and planning necessary to accomplish it. I know all the things I'd need to do to accomplish it, and I even enjoy some of them when I'm doing them, but I mostly don't care to do them.

People are all the time dreaming a dream of what they'd do if they only could. That doesn't mean they would actually do it if given the opportunity, nor does it mean that they'd enjoy doing it.
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Re: The risk of DEATH ---- under-discussed on this forum?

Post by HomerJ »

JoeRetire wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:11 pm I think the trick is to have a job that makes you happy and a retirement that makes you happy. Then you are never unhappy.
Pretty neat trick!

But someone has to pick up your garbage every week.
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Re: The risk of DEATH ---- under-discussed on this forum?

Post by brian91480 »

Patzer wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:03 am
JackoC wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:35 am
Also, not new ground either for the two asset combination ('stock' or 'bond') past very bad outcomes of either were still much lower than the expected return now, so far so good. But, often combinations of bad returns for one or other were accompanied by returns above the (current) expected return for the other (as when averagish +2-2.5% real bond returns helped bail out very bad stock returns in some periods, doesn't seem a very relevant scenario from now).
We have had much worse bond yields historically and people did just fine.

1917 Retirement Date
Right now we are experiencing transitory inflation and bond yields far lower than inflation.
We had roughly 15%/yr inflation from Jan 1917-Jan 1921. A world war and a pandemic ended and the cost of everything went way up.
10 yr bonds lost ~35% on an inflation adjusted basis over 4 years.
The stock market lost ~50% on an inflation adjusted basis over those 4 years.
Sounds like if you retired in 1917, you are hosed, right?
Nope, 21.3X expenses would have done fine with 75% Stocks, 15% 10 year treasuries, and 10% 3 month treasuries for a 50 year retirement period.

From Jan 1921-Jan 1923 had 16% deflation and Jan 1923-Jan 1928 had an average of 0.3% inflation.
Bonds returned an inflation adjusted return of 45% for those 7 years.
Stocks returned an inflation adjusted return of 570% for those 7 years.

1901 Retirement Date
But what about high stock values...
Okay, fair point, let's go back to 1901.
Stocks were at all time highs, CAPE ratios were at all time highs, 10 year Treasuries were at all time lows. Sounds a lot like 2021.
Sounds like a bad year to retire... and it was.
If you lived 50 years from a 1901 retirement date, you would have had:
Bear markets of 1903, 1907, 1914, 1929-1933, and 1937
Rapid inflation of 1917-1920, 1941-1945, and 1946-1948
The systematic failure of the country during the great depression from 1929-1939 and two world wars.

If you retired at the start of the highest peak month of 1901, with 75% Stocks, 15% 10 year treasuries, and 10% 3 month treasuries, then it took 27.3X expenses to survive for a 50 year retirement period.
If you retired 1 month earlier or later, so pretty close to the worst date, but just slightly better luck, then you only needed 25.7X expenses.

Realistically, most of us will have far shorter retirement periods than 50 years, and realistically 2021 is unlikely to be worse than retiring in 1901.
This comment here... this is a future "holiday season post".

People need to understand this. Pretty eye-opening. 👍
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Re: The risk of DEATH ---- under-discussed on this forum?

Post by rai »

wrongfunds wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 4:46 pm
iceport wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:36 pm
Dottie57 wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:19 pm My concern is the 18% chance of being alive between 91 and 110.
Yeah, and that's for a 62 year old male. For a 68 year old female, the chance goes up to 31%!

Playing around with that spreadsheet is very interesting...
I am trying to see if that claim is reasonable. Is it true that if that were the case, there should *lots* of 91+ age women population. In your daily life, you will come across many 91+ year old women. I don't think that is my experience.
The data I saw said ~ 2M people in US are 90 or older. That means around one out of every 170 people alive in the USA are 90 or older. I see 90+ people all the time in the medical field as patients. But I’d imagine most are socked away in old age homes and in elderly retirement places and so you won’t see them all that often.

I’m not an expert in the field of elders but I look at it like this (as I see it) a lot of people die from cancer and CAD and probably diabetes and obesity. But if you somehow managed to escape Cancer and CAD that takes a lot of folks in their 70s and 80s then you kind of miss all the biggest mortally makers and you can skate on for a long long time before old age catches up to you.

Clint Eastward for example is 91 and still making movies.

Charley Munger is 97 and Buffett is 91 they’re always eating candy and drinking Coke every time I see them.
Last edited by rai on Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:43 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The risk of DEATH ---- under-discussed on this forum?

Post by afan »

JoeRetire wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:00 pm

Your experience of working past the day you could afford to stop is more the norm. But not everyone is bored in retirement (I know I am not at all bored).
I get bored during a one-week vacation.

I learned long ago that taking more than that off at once would drive me crazy. As it is, I spend most vacation days doing at least some work. Another eason I cannot imagine hiking the Appalachian Trail.

A lifetime of endless aimless leisure would be terrifying. That is why I hope to have lost the mental capacity and drive before poor health or lack of demand for my services make me leave the labor force.
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Re: The risk of DEATH ---- under-discussed on this forum?

Post by langelgjm »

afan wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:54 pm ...

I still do not understand the "risk" of working longer than needed.

We passed that point long ago. I do not understand the either/or of working versus "living." I have continued to work past the need for the money, yet I am very much alive. I am exactly as alive as I would have been if I had retired 10 years ago. By continuing to work I have avoided 10 years of boredom with no professional accomplishments to show for them.
It sounds like you derive most of your meaning and purpose in life from your profession. That's wonderful, and I'm sure you're thankful for the blessing of having such a profession (and a personality suited to it).

But not everyone gets to do work that they enjoy. Or, they may enjoy their work, but still prefer to do other things. Indeed, the entire concept of work as something that one should enjoy is relatively new. Ezra Klein produced two podcasts this year treating this topic: "The Case Against Loving Your Job" and "Why Do We Work So Damn Much" that may be of interest.

I enjoy my job most days, but I have many interests, pleasures, and goals outside of work, and when I stop working I will not be bored.
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Re: The risk of DEATH ---- under-discussed on this forum?

Post by fortunefavored »

afan wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:36 pm
JoeRetire wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:00 pm

Your experience of working past the day you could afford to stop is more the norm. But not everyone is bored in retirement (I know I am not at all bored).
I get bored during a one-week vacation.

I learned long ago that taking more than that off at once would drive me crazy. As it is, I spend most vacation days doing at least some work. Another eason I cannot imagine hiking the Appalachian Trail.

A lifetime of endless aimless leisure would be terrifying. That is why I hope to have lost the mental capacity and drive before poor health or lack of demand for my services make me leave the labor force.
afan, you should be the poster child for the "must work until you die" team on bogleheads - I recall you once told me in a thread that I would need 120X expenses to "safely" retire before 50. :)

I do wish you all the best and hope you find happiness, but it does sound like a pretty grim way to live.
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Re: The risk of DEATH ---- under-discussed on this forum?

Post by surfstar »

afan wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:36 pm
JoeRetire wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:00 pm

Your experience of working past the day you could afford to stop is more the norm. But not everyone is bored in retirement (I know I am not at all bored).
I get bored during a one-week vacation.

I learned long ago that taking more than that off at once would drive me crazy. As it is, I spend most vacation days doing at least some work. Another eason I cannot imagine hiking the Appalachian Trail.

A lifetime of endless aimless leisure would be terrifying. That is why I hope to have lost the mental capacity and drive before poor health or lack of demand for my services make me leave the labor force.
Next time you're out a night with a very dark sky, don't look up and realize how insignificant our Solar System is, Earth is, people are, you are. It might make you lose the motivation to work.
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Re: The risk of DEATH ---- under-discussed on this forum?

Post by Wrench »

How about this as a reason to continue to work, from:
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-b ... 1638548181

"Those who work longer experience less cognitive decline. I don’t know about you, but that alone would convince me to postpone retirement even if there were no financial reason to do so.

This cognitive benefit of postponing retirement was documented by a study that was published in the September 2021 issue of SSM –Population Health, a peer-reviewed journal. Entitled “Does postponing retirement affect cognitive function?,” its authors, from the Max Planck Institute for Demographic Research in Rostock, Germany, are Joe Mhairi Hale, Maarte Bijlsma, and Angelo Lorenti."

Wrench
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brian91480
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Re: The risk of DEATH ---- under-discussed on this forum?

Post by brian91480 »

Wrench wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:04 pm How about this as a reason to continue to work, from:
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-b ... 1638548181

"Those who work longer experience less cognitive decline. I don’t know about you, but that alone would convince me to postpone retirement even if there were no financial reason to do so.

This cognitive benefit of postponing retirement was documented by a study that was published in the September 2021 issue of SSM –Population Health, a peer-reviewed journal. Entitled “Does postponing retirement affect cognitive function?,” its authors, from the Max Planck Institute for Demographic Research in Rostock, Germany, are Joe Mhairi Hale, Maarte Bijlsma, and Angelo Lorenti."

Wrench
Over the years, I have seen this decline occur quickly with some recent retirees. And others... I've seen no noticeable mental decline at all for several years.

What I've concluded is... if you retire to grocery shop and watch TV... you'll suffer mental decline fast.

If you stay active with seeing people, participating in hobbies... you'll likely be just fine.

-- Brian
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HomerJ
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Re: The risk of DEATH ---- under-discussed on this forum?

Post by HomerJ »

brian91480 wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:10 pm
Wrench wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:04 pm How about this as a reason to continue to work, from:
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-b ... 1638548181

"Those who work longer experience less cognitive decline. I don’t know about you, but that alone would convince me to postpone retirement even if there were no financial reason to do so.

This cognitive benefit of postponing retirement was documented by a study that was published in the September 2021 issue of SSM –Population Health, a peer-reviewed journal. Entitled “Does postponing retirement affect cognitive function?,” its authors, from the Max Planck Institute for Demographic Research in Rostock, Germany, are Joe Mhairi Hale, Maarte Bijlsma, and Angelo Lorenti."

Wrench
Over the years, I have seen this decline occur quickly with some recent retirees. And others... I've seen no noticeable mental decline at all for several years.

What I've concluded is... if you retire to grocery shop and watch TV... you'll suffer mental decline fast.

If you stay active with seeing people, participating in hobbies... you'll likely be just fine.

-- Brian
Yep, correlation isn't causation.

If you keep your mind active in retirement, like you did at work, there should be no difference.
"The best tools available to us are shovels, not scalpels. Don't get carried away." - vanBogle59
visualguy
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Re: The risk of DEATH ---- under-discussed on this forum?

Post by visualguy »

brian91480 wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:10 pm
Wrench wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:04 pm How about this as a reason to continue to work, from:
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-b ... 1638548181

"Those who work longer experience less cognitive decline. I don’t know about you, but that alone would convince me to postpone retirement even if there were no financial reason to do so.

This cognitive benefit of postponing retirement was documented by a study that was published in the September 2021 issue of SSM –Population Health, a peer-reviewed journal. Entitled “Does postponing retirement affect cognitive function?,” its authors, from the Max Planck Institute for Demographic Research in Rostock, Germany, are Joe Mhairi Hale, Maarte Bijlsma, and Angelo Lorenti."

Wrench
Over the years, I have seen this decline occur quickly with some recent retirees. And others... I've seen no noticeable mental decline at all for several years.

What I've concluded is... if you retire to grocery shop and watch TV... you'll suffer mental decline fast.

If you stay active with seeing people, participating in hobbies... you'll likely be just fine.

-- Brian
There's no indication that the study was limited to grocery shoppers and TV watchers...
visualguy
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Re: The risk of DEATH ---- under-discussed on this forum?

Post by visualguy »

HomerJ wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:12 pm
brian91480 wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:10 pm
Wrench wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:04 pm How about this as a reason to continue to work, from:
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-b ... 1638548181

"Those who work longer experience less cognitive decline. I don’t know about you, but that alone would convince me to postpone retirement even if there were no financial reason to do so.

This cognitive benefit of postponing retirement was documented by a study that was published in the September 2021 issue of SSM –Population Health, a peer-reviewed journal. Entitled “Does postponing retirement affect cognitive function?,” its authors, from the Max Planck Institute for Demographic Research in Rostock, Germany, are Joe Mhairi Hale, Maarte Bijlsma, and Angelo Lorenti."

Wrench
Over the years, I have seen this decline occur quickly with some recent retirees. And others... I've seen no noticeable mental decline at all for several years.

What I've concluded is... if you retire to grocery shop and watch TV... you'll suffer mental decline fast.

If you stay active with seeing people, participating in hobbies... you'll likely be just fine.

-- Brian
Yep, correlation isn't causation.

If you keep your mind active in retirement, like you did at work, there should be no difference.
It's claimed that the study was able to handle the correlation vs causation issue.

I agree about keeping the mind active like at work, but in reality it's very hard to make that happen and stick to it.
delamer
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Re: The risk of DEATH ---- under-discussed on this forum?

Post by delamer »

visualguy wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:16 pm
HomerJ wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:12 pm
brian91480 wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:10 pm
Wrench wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:04 pm How about this as a reason to continue to work, from:
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-b ... 1638548181

"Those who work longer experience less cognitive decline. I don’t know about you, but that alone would convince me to postpone retirement even if there were no financial reason to do so.

This cognitive benefit of postponing retirement was documented by a study that was published in the September 2021 issue of SSM –Population Health, a peer-reviewed journal. Entitled “Does postponing retirement affect cognitive function?,” its authors, from the Max Planck Institute for Demographic Research in Rostock, Germany, are Joe Mhairi Hale, Maarte Bijlsma, and Angelo Lorenti."

Wrench
Over the years, I have seen this decline occur quickly with some recent retirees. And others... I've seen no noticeable mental decline at all for several years.

What I've concluded is... if you retire to grocery shop and watch TV... you'll suffer mental decline fast.

If you stay active with seeing people, participating in hobbies... you'll likely be just fine.

-- Brian
Yep, correlation isn't causation.

If you keep your mind active in retirement, like you did at work, there should be no difference.
It's claimed that the study was able to handle the correlation vs causation issue.

I agree about keeping the mind active like at work, but in reality it's very hard to make that happen and stick to it.
I’ve never been quite sure what to do with this information.

How would I figure out how long I need to work in order to maximize my cognitive function? How do I balance out the negative effects of work-related stress with the positive cognitive benefits of work?
One thing that humbles me deeply is to see that human genius has its limits while human stupidity does not. - Alexandre Dumas, fils
surfstar
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Re: The risk of DEATH ---- under-discussed on this forum?

Post by surfstar »

Wrench wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:04 pm How about this as a reason to continue to work, from:
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-b ... 1638548181

"Those who work longer experience less cognitive decline. I don’t know about you, but that alone would convince me to postpone retirement even if there were no financial reason to do so.

This cognitive benefit of postponing retirement was documented by a study that was published in the September 2021 issue of SSM –Population Health, a peer-reviewed journal. Entitled “Does postponing retirement affect cognitive function?,” its authors, from the Max Planck Institute for Demographic Research in Rostock, Germany, are Joe Mhairi Hale, Maarte Bijlsma, and Angelo Lorenti."

Wrench
Great point. Feel free to donate your salary to my FIRE fund and watch my blissful cognitive decline. I'll continue to write you thank you letters while I am still able.
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Re: The risk of DEATH ---- under-discussed on this forum?

Post by Broken Man 1999 »

shess wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:21 pm
visualguy wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:11 pm I'm with you, but different strokes for different folks. You couldn't pay me enough to go rock climbing, travel the country in an RV, or hike the Appalachian trail, but people enjoy different things. I'd definitely rather do my work than any of those things.
I'm retired early, and I'd LOVE to hike the Appalachian Trail (or the Colorado Trail, etc).

Unfortunately, I find that I have little to no interest in doing the training and planning necessary to accomplish it. I know all the things I'd need to do to accomplish it, and I even enjoy some of them when I'm doing them, but I mostly don't care to do them.

People are all the time dreaming a dream of what they'd do if they only could. That doesn't mean they would actually do it if given the opportunity, nor does it mean that they'd enjoy doing it.
My plan was to hike the Appalachian trail in early retirement. I had hiked portions already during our vacations in the mountains.

In fact I had two pair of hiking boots I had never used when I had my accident. I gave them to my oldest daughter's boyfriend.

I'll never know if I would have actually hiked the entire trail, but my interest wasn't just a casual idea. As it turned out, I had no choice of hiking the trail.

Instead of retiring at 55, I "retired" at 45.

I never hated my work, but given the choice of working or not, I would have chosen not working.

I think one reason I handled my disabilty fairly well was I never defined myself by my career. I had a good work ethic, was successful all in all. DW and I were very involved in community service prior to our daughters being born, then, just as busy supporting their activities. Our work/life balance was excellent.

Seems there are a lot of folks who seem to struggle with retirement, perhaps their identity is too wrapped up with their career. We all pretty much get to determine how important our work/career efforts are to us. Different strokes for different folks. Really no right/wrong answer.

Broken Man 1999
“If I cannot drink Bourbon and smoke cigars in Heaven then I shall not go." - Mark Twain
cbeck
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Re: The risk of DEATH ---- under-discussed on this forum?

Post by cbeck »

Blue456 wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 4:57 pm Your life insurance company can probably pretty accurately calculate most likely year of death.
Not true at all. What they can calculate to a high degree of accuracy is the mortality rate of the cohort you are in. They are no more able to calculate your own life span than you are.
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Re: The risk of DEATH ---- under-discussed on this forum?

Post by brian91480 »

surfstar wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:27 pm
Wrench wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:04 pm How about this as a reason to continue to work, from:
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-b ... 1638548181

"Those who work longer experience less cognitive decline. I don’t know about you, but that alone would convince me to postpone retirement even if there were no financial reason to do so.

This cognitive benefit of postponing retirement was documented by a study that was published in the September 2021 issue of SSM –Population Health, a peer-reviewed journal. Entitled “Does postponing retirement affect cognitive function?,” its authors, from the Max Planck Institute for Demographic Research in Rostock, Germany, are Joe Mhairi Hale, Maarte Bijlsma, and Angelo Lorenti."

Wrench
Great point. Feel free to donate your salary to my FIRE fund and watch my blissful cognitive decline. I'll continue to write you thank you letters while I am still able.
The more I read this thread... the more I keep thinking:

"I want to be Surf Star's friend."

We see a lot of things the same way. 👍

-- Brian
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Re: The risk of DEATH ---- under-discussed on this forum?

Post by H-Town »

You guys spent too much time talking about dying early.

There is a saying: you either keep busy living or you keep busy dying.
Time is the ultimate currency.
shess
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Re: The risk of DEATH ---- under-discussed on this forum?

Post by shess »

afan wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:36 pm
JoeRetire wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:00 pm

Your experience of working past the day you could afford to stop is more the norm. But not everyone is bored in retirement (I know I am not at all bored).
I get bored during a one-week vacation.

I learned long ago that taking more than that off at once would drive me crazy. As it is, I spend most vacation days doing at least some work. Another eason I cannot imagine hiking the Appalachian Trail.
One of my jobs in my 20's I was writing software for a guy in his 50's. My spouse (then fiance) and I would go on tight little one-night and two-night trips, optimizing for weekends and scheduled holidays, and during lunch at one of our planning offsites, he asked me why we kept going on such short vacations. He listened to whatever my excuses were, and said "You know, shess, the vacation doesn't really start until the third week."

30 years later, and I see more and more how this is true. I get your point about the boredom. But as time goes by, I've become convinced that that is just the hysteresis from what "normal" is taken for, these days. You need to push through that until you're on "island time", for whatever island you're on. Maybe it won't work for you, but you owe it to yourself to reach that place once or twice...
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Re: The risk of DEATH ---- under-discussed on this forum?

Post by 59Gibson »

rai wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:36 pm
wrongfunds wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 4:46 pm
iceport wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:36 pm
Dottie57 wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:19 pm My concern is the 18% chance of being alive between 91 and 110.
Yeah, and that's for a 62 year old male. For a 68 year old female, the chance goes up to 31%!

Playing around with that spreadsheet is very interesting...
I am trying to see if that claim is reasonable. Is it true that if that were the case, there should *lots* of 91+ age women population. In your daily life, you will come across many 91+ year old women. I don't think that is my experience.
The data I saw said ~ 2M people in US are 90 or older. That means around one out of every 170 people alive in the USA are 90 or older. I see 90+ people all the time in the medical field as patients. But I’d imagine most are socked away in old age homes and in elderly retirement places and so you won’t see them all that often.

I’m not an expert in the field of elders but I look at it like this (as I see it) a lot of people die from cancer and CAD and probably diabetes and obesity. But if you somehow managed to escape Cancer and CAD that takes a lot of folks in their 70s and 80s then you kind of miss all the biggest mortally makers and you can skate on for a long long time before old age catches up to you.

Clint Eastward for example is 91 and still making movies.

Charley Munger is 97 and Buffett is 91 they’re always eating candy and drinking Coke every time I see them.
There are many moving parts, sometimes no rhyme or reason. I had a grandfather that smoked and drank heavily live to 89 without many problems, an otherwise healthy uncle passed from colon cancer at 54.
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Re: The risk of DEATH ---- under-discussed on this forum?

Post by AnnetteLouisan »

HomerJ wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:22 pm
JoeRetire wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:11 pm I think the trick is to have a job that makes you happy and a retirement that makes you happy. Then you are never unhappy.
Pretty neat trick!

But someone has to pick up your garbage every week.
I could tell you a true story of a garbage man who loves his job if that would help. How often does one get to hear such stories?
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HomerJ
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Re: The risk of DEATH ---- under-discussed on this forum?

Post by HomerJ »

visualguy wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:16 pm
HomerJ wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:12 pm
brian91480 wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:10 pm
Wrench wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:04 pm How about this as a reason to continue to work, from:
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-b ... 1638548181

"Those who work longer experience less cognitive decline. I don’t know about you, but that alone would convince me to postpone retirement even if there were no financial reason to do so.

This cognitive benefit of postponing retirement was documented by a study that was published in the September 2021 issue of SSM –Population Health, a peer-reviewed journal. Entitled “Does postponing retirement affect cognitive function?,” its authors, from the Max Planck Institute for Demographic Research in Rostock, Germany, are Joe Mhairi Hale, Maarte Bijlsma, and Angelo Lorenti."

Wrench
Over the years, I have seen this decline occur quickly with some recent retirees. And others... I've seen no noticeable mental decline at all for several years.

What I've concluded is... if you retire to grocery shop and watch TV... you'll suffer mental decline fast.

If you stay active with seeing people, participating in hobbies... you'll likely be just fine.

-- Brian
Yep, correlation isn't causation.

If you keep your mind active in retirement, like you did at work, there should be no difference.
It's claimed that the study was able to handle the correlation vs causation issue.

I agree about keeping the mind active like at work, but in reality it's very hard to make that happen and stick to it.
It's very easy to keep your mind active. Even more so than work. Half of work is bogus crap that requires little thought or stuff that causes stress.

I guarantee quitting work would make me far healthier.
"The best tools available to us are shovels, not scalpels. Don't get carried away." - vanBogle59
wrongfunds
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Re: The risk of DEATH ---- under-discussed on this forum?

Post by wrongfunds »

If an active BH loses his (her) mind, how would anyone know ? :-)
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Re: The risk of DEATH ---- under-discussed on this forum?

Post by JoeRetire »

HomerJ wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:22 pm
JoeRetire wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:11 pm I think the trick is to have a job that makes you happy and a retirement that makes you happy. Then you are never unhappy.
Pretty neat trick!

But someone has to pick up your garbage every week.
I would never assume that all garbage collectors hate their job.
This isn't just my wallet. It's an organizer, a memory and an old friend.
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JoeRetire
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Re: The risk of DEATH ---- under-discussed on this forum?

Post by JoeRetire »

rai wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:36 pm
wrongfunds wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 4:46 pm
iceport wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:36 pm
Dottie57 wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:19 pm My concern is the 18% chance of being alive between 91 and 110.
Yeah, and that's for a 62 year old male. For a 68 year old female, the chance goes up to 31%!

Playing around with that spreadsheet is very interesting...
I am trying to see if that claim is reasonable. Is it true that if that were the case, there should *lots* of 91+ age women population. In your daily life, you will come across many 91+ year old women. I don't think that is my experience.
The data I saw said ~ 2M people in US are 90 or older. That means around one out of every 170 people alive in the USA are 90 or older. I see 90+ people all the time in the medical field as patients. But I’d imagine most are socked away in old age homes and in elderly retirement places and so you won’t see them all that often.

I’m not an expert in the field of elders but I look at it like this (as I see it) a lot of people die from cancer and CAD and probably diabetes and obesity. But if you somehow managed to escape Cancer and CAD that takes a lot of folks in their 70s and 80s then you kind of miss all the biggest mortally makers and you can skate on for a long long time before old age catches up to you.

Clint Eastward for example is 91 and still making movies.

Charley Munger is 97 and Buffett is 91 they’re always eating candy and drinking Coke every time I see them.
I played pickleball against a 90 year old retired physician yesterday.
He was pretty good.
This isn't just my wallet. It's an organizer, a memory and an old friend.
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JoeRetire
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Re: The risk of DEATH ---- under-discussed on this forum?

Post by JoeRetire »

afan wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:36 pm
JoeRetire wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:00 pm

Your experience of working past the day you could afford to stop is more the norm. But not everyone is bored in retirement (I know I am not at all bored).
I get bored during a one-week vacation.
Retirement and one-week vacations are quite different things.
I learned long ago that taking more than that off at once would drive me crazy. As it is, I spend most vacation days doing at least some work. Another eason I cannot imagine hiking the Appalachian Trail.

A lifetime of endless aimless leisure would be terrifying. That is why I hope to have lost the mental capacity and drive before poor health or lack of demand for my services make me leave the labor force.
Retirement is not endless aimless leisure. At least not for me.

And if you want to keep working, that's terrific! I know a multi-millionaire couple in their late 80s, far, far wealthier than I, who both work at their business and have no intention of ever retiring. They are very happy.

Everyone is different. The nice thing about retirement (for me at least) is that you can do what you want.
My wife enjoys working part time. I enjoy other activities. Life is good.
This isn't just my wallet. It's an organizer, a memory and an old friend.
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HomerJ
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Re: The risk of DEATH ---- under-discussed on this forum?

Post by HomerJ »

JoeRetire wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:17 pm
HomerJ wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:22 pm
JoeRetire wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:11 pm I think the trick is to have a job that makes you happy and a retirement that makes you happy. Then you are never unhappy.
Pretty neat trick!

But someone has to pick up your garbage every week.
I would never assume that all garbage collectors hate their job.
I never said all garbage collectors hate their job.

I would suggest that you feel happy for the people who have jobs they love, and continue to love, right up until the day they voluntarily decide to quit those jobs with plenty of money in retirement.

Instead of feeling sorry for everyone who is not as lucky as you.
Last edited by HomerJ on Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The risk of DEATH ---- under-discussed on this forum?

Post by VictoriaF »

brian91480 wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:25 am So when we evaluate the word RISK on this forum... shouldn't the pendulum swing away from the small chance of ''what if'' that causes me to go broke, many years into retirement' --- and have the pendulum swing back towards ''there's a 40% chance I'll be dead when I am 80 years old!''
We definitely should maximize post retirement healthy lifespan in addition to maximizing our assets. But the population statistics must be corrected for individual cases. For example:
- Most Americans lead unhealthy lifestyles including unhealthy diets. For those who live and eat healthily the chances of a healthy lifespan are greater.
- Some people quickly deteriorate after retiring. Other people use the freedoms offered by retirement to take better care of their health: better sleep, less stress, more exercise. A retiree has more time to find better doctors, see doctors, and get medical services.
- Dying with unspent assets is not a problem. Having a serious disease at the end of life and not being able to live in one's home and get desired support is a problem.

Victoria
Inventor of the Bogleheads Secret Handshake | Winner of the 2015 Boglehead Contest. | Every joke has a bit of a joke. ... The rest is the truth. (Marat F)
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Re: The risk of DEATH ---- under-discussed on this forum?

Post by VictoriaF »

wrongfunds wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:15 pm If an active BH loses his (her) mind, how would anyone know ? :-)
If I lose my mind, I'll start making spelling mistakes.

Victoria
Inventor of the Bogleheads Secret Handshake | Winner of the 2015 Boglehead Contest. | Every joke has a bit of a joke. ... The rest is the truth. (Marat F)
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HomerJ
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Re: The risk of DEATH ---- under-discussed on this forum?

Post by HomerJ »

VictoriaF wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:38 pm
wrongfunds wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:15 pm If an active BH loses his (her) mind, how would anyone know ? :-)
If I lose my mind, I'll start making spelling mistakes.

Victoria
Heh, I spent a full 15 seconds scanning that sentence for one.

By the way, I must be losing my mind, because my spelling has definitely gotten worse. I have to look up words a lot more these days.
Last edited by HomerJ on Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The risk of DEATH ---- under-discussed on this forum?

Post by Wanderingwheelz »

JoeRetire wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:31 pm
HomerJ wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:57 pm
JoeRetire wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:12 pm
HomerJ wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:53 pm
JoeRetire wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:05 pm

Fortunately, I found a way to spend 55+ hours per week on average, doing something I enjoyed doing.
Why did you retire then?
It was time. As the saying goes "all things must pass."

Over my career, when the particular job stopped being enjoyable, I found a new one. That started to be the case with my final job. I decided that it was time to wrap up a long career.
Okay, so there came a time when working any job wasn't more enjoyable than not working.

Which is what others are saying. They would rather not be working. So you should understand where they are coming from.
I understand. I feel bad for them.
Why would you feel bad for a person who would rather not work than work? You lost me.
Being wrong compounds forever.
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Re: The risk of DEATH ---- under-discussed on this forum?

Post by VictoriaF »

HomerJ wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:41 pm
VictoriaF wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:38 pm
wrongfunds wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:15 pm If an active BH loses his (her) mind, how would anyone know ? :-)
If I lose my mind, I'll start making spelling mistakes.

Victoria
Heh, I spent a full 15 seconds scanning that sentence for one.
What did you find?

Victoria
Inventor of the Bogleheads Secret Handshake | Winner of the 2015 Boglehead Contest. | Every joke has a bit of a joke. ... The rest is the truth. (Marat F)
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JoeRetire
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Re: The risk of DEATH ---- under-discussed on this forum?

Post by JoeRetire »

HomerJ wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:35 pm
JoeRetire wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:17 pm
HomerJ wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:22 pm
JoeRetire wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:11 pm I think the trick is to have a job that makes you happy and a retirement that makes you happy. Then you are never unhappy.
Pretty neat trick!

But someone has to pick up your garbage every week.
I would never assume that all garbage collectors hate their job.
I never said all garbage collectors hate their job.

I would suggest that you feel happy for the people who have jobs they love, and continue to love, right up until the day they voluntarily decide to quit those jobs with plenty of money in retirement.
I do.
Instead of feeling sorry for everyone who is not as lucky as you.
Thanks for the suggestion, but I'll continue to feel sorry for everyone who is not as lucky as me.
This isn't just my wallet. It's an organizer, a memory and an old friend.
Locked