Vanguard Flagship Services Personal Representative

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Cheez-It Guy
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Re: Vanguard Flagship Services Personal Representative

Post by Cheez-It Guy »

Yeah, I'm referring to the notion that Vanguard has some top-level plan to exit retail operations and that their strategy to accomplish this is through poor customer service, removing features, and breaking their own app.
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Re: Vanguard Flagship Services Personal Representative

Post by Broken Man 1999 »

afan wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 9:56 am PRESS RELEASE
Online Brokerage Firms Strain under Weight of New Investor Surge, J.D. Power Finds
Reported Problem Incidence Doubles as Website Issues and Processing Problems Proliferate

27 April 2021

...According to the J.D. Power 2021 U.S. Self-Directed Investor Satisfaction Study,SM released today, the number of problems cited by customers doubled during the past year, with website issues, processing and trade execution failures and account statement errors leading the way.

...
“The significant influx of new investors—and increased trading volumes and overall engagement from clients—clearly put a strain on the system ... “

...
Frequent glitches sap customer satisfaction: Problem incidence has doubled in the past year, affecting 11% of all do-it-yourself investors and 12% of those in the seeking guidance segment of self-directed investors..

...



With more than 10 million new brokerage accounts opened in 2020 as mainstream investor interest skyrocketed during the pandemic, retail brokerage firms struggled to deliver a seamless customer experience.
...the number of problems cited by customers doubled during the past year,


...
The U.S. Self-Directed Investor Satisfaction Study, now in its 19th year, evaluates key satisfaction drivers and firm performance among both investors seeking guidance (those who don’t have a dedicated financial advisor but do have access to interact with a registered investment professional) and true do-it-yourself investors (those who do not interact with professional advisors).

Study Rankings

Vanguard (736) ranks highest in self-directed investor satisfaction among investors seeking guidance.

T. Rowe Price (705) ranks second and Charles Schwab (702) ranks third.

Vanguard (736) ranks highest in self-directed investor satisfaction among do-it-yourself investors
. Charles Schwab (727) ranks second and T. Rowe Price (721) ranks third.
Some BHs seem to prefer making their decisions based on anecdotal info gleaned from anonymous postings made by unhappy customers. Now, just for the record, I absolutely accept that those posting DID encounter some type issue. BUT, the problem with anecdotal info (positive or negative) is one major metric is missing: How many of Vanguard's 30million+ clients are experiencing issues?

Still, there are lots of other brokerages that would accept the unhappy Vanguard clients with open arms (and might even pay them to be a new client).

At the end of the day, I would believe there will be more said, than done by unhappy Vanguard clients.

Broken Man 1999
“If I cannot drink Bourbon and smoke cigars in Heaven then I shall not go." - Mark Twain
nalor511
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Re: Vanguard Flagship Services Personal Representative

Post by nalor511 »

Cheez-It Guy wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 11:04 am Yeah, I'm referring to the notion that Vanguard has some top-level plan to exit retail operations and that their strategy to accomplish this is through poor customer service, removing features, and breaking their own app.
I'm not necessarily saying that they have a top level plan to drive customers away, but I do mean that they don't care if you stay. They are perfectly happy if you leave because they're still making money from your ER. It would be so easy to have left the secure message system in place, and just not answer it very quickly... But instead they created all this drama by removing it. Sort of. For some. For now.

I can't speak exactly to each decision they have made to worsen their service, but most of it likely comes down to investment, they aren't investing in these things. Fidelity and Schwab need these services for their premium clients, and it costs them very little extra to let the smaller customers have them as well, and when those customers grow to whales they will likely stay.

Anything I say is my opinion and you're welcome to disagree, but Vanguard's behavior and long term happy customers (18yr+) experiences support it. I don't care one bit what some JD Power paid survey says. I feel like this forum heavily supports Vanguard, everywhere from the wiki, to the site name. I feel an obligation to let new prospective members know about my experiences, as a former 100% Vanguard fanboy, so they know that something at Vanguard has changed before deciding where to invest
retire2022
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Re: Vanguard Flagship Services Personal Representative

Post by retire2022 »

Op

With 2.7 million since August 2021 I am still waiting for upgrade to F***Ship, a euphemism for Flagship status, let along from a pool of advisors (seamen) have yet to contact me.

I have yet to abandon ship, pun intended.

We shall see what future will bring 😝
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Re: Vanguard Flagship Services Personal Representative

Post by Broken Man 1999 »

Flagship status...... Yay!

We belong to an elite group of over 60,000! Yee haw!

I feel so special! Any of my rewards credit cards give me something more of value than Flagship. Vanguard should cut another bit of ER and do away with these silly levels, or, at least make the program worthwhile.

The $1,000,000 threshold for Flagship is very dated and isn't that relevant now, given the value of a dollar today.

Flagship status should start at $5,000,000, at the minimum; maybe Flagship Select could start at $10,000,000. We would be tossed out of Flagship status at those levels, but I would hardly miss my current Flagship benefits.

I'm fine with the service I am receiving; I manage four other family member's accounts besides my own and DW's. Believe me, I would not stick around if Vanguard caused more work for me for any of the accounts I manage. I am very slothful, and I have zero desire to have to micromanage Vanguard.

Beware of my statements right above, as they are anecdotal, and should carry very little weight in evaluating service at Vanguard!
“If I cannot drink Bourbon and smoke cigars in Heaven then I shall not go." - Mark Twain
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Cheez-It Guy
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Re: Vanguard Flagship Services Personal Representative

Post by Cheez-It Guy »

retire2022 wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:51 pm Op

With 2.7 million since August 2021 I am still waiting for upgrade to F***Ship, a euphemism for Flagship status, let along from a pool of advisors (seamen) have yet to contact me.

I have yet to abandon ship, pun intended.

We shall see what future will bring 😝
Flags*** is the better euphemism, in my opinion.
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Re: Vanguard Flagship Services Personal Representative

Post by afan »

Does anyone know whether the customer service experience is better for those with PAS? I never viewed it as a way get better service. I just thought it was to have someone manage investments for you and perhaps answer some very simple questions.

According to JDPower, CS at all the brokers has suffered as the volume of accounts and trading have swelled. Not to mention COVID. The Power survey is the only thing I know of that resembles systematic data. I find it hard to reconcile "CS much worse than competition" with "highest customer satisfaction".

I find is hard to reconcile "terrible CS" with the pace of growth of the firm.

I am willing to believe every account of problems with Vanguard. However, that tells me nothing about how the competition is doing.

I find it easy to believe that the pace of growth has exceeded the capacity to expand the IT and hire and train new employees. I have no basis for assuming Vanguard is the only place with such problems. Maybe it is. The Power results suggest that it is not.

Do I believe that some people are frustrated by bad experiences? Sure.
Is the service worse than the other big brokers? The ONLY data I have on that subject is from the Power survey.

If there are other data on relative service quality, someone please cite them.
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Re: Vanguard Flagship Services Personal Representative

Post by surfinagin »

Had a Vanguard acct for a long time, and also manage a family member's account. Another "anecdotal story":
Reviewing relative's statement a few months ago, did a double-take seeing two RMD's. One was for last year's RMD amount. Used the messaging service to provide all details, then had a follow-up telcon. The rep explained that the 2020 RMD "carried over from the old system" and would take about 6 weeks to delete (as I recall), since the group handling that was overloaded. After the delay, they deleted the wrong RMD. Another telcon to alert Vanguard to their 2nd error, then they finally got it right. Telcons and treatment by CS rep went fine, though :wink:

A Flagship rep isn't a big deal to me, but errors like this cause concern and give me the perception that Vanguard is running so lean and mean to keep costs down that it's creating errors. This got me considering a move to Fidelity, where I opened a HSA a few years ago that has gone well.

The "FIDELITY100" promotion (open an account w/$50 and Fidelity adds $100) is a great deal, and presented a good opportunity to take the first step and have an account there "on standby" if Vanguard further disappoints.
Fidelity messed up the opportunity to get the additional investment that they hope for with their promo: I never received the email confirming eligibility after opening/funding the new account, so had to jump through that hoop with a long telcon to confirm eligibility and request the rep to note in my account that it is eligible. Then the acct. wasn't funded after 25 calendar days, therefore had to jump thru a 2nd hoop with a nearly 1HR telcon (including hold) to get that corrected by Fidelity performing their $100 deposit manually.
As they say, the grass isn't always greener.....
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Re: Vanguard Flagship Services Personal Representative

Post by nalor511 »

afan wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:20 pm ...
According to JDPower, CS at all the brokers has suffered as the volume of accounts and trading have swelled. Not to mention COVID. The Power survey is the only thing I know of that resembles systematic data. I find it hard to reconcile "CS much worse than competition" with "highest customer satisfaction".
...
My personal experience with Schwab and Fidelity has been great, during covid, even if I've had a long wait on live chat, at least I have the OPTION of live chat (unlike Vanguard).

JD Power results are paid for by the company (Vanguard), simple as that
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Re: Vanguard Flagship Services Personal Representative

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I work in the industry, in fact at a firm that has at times sub-advised Vanguard active funds. The executives in this industry couldn’t care less if their IT and ops employers live or die. Fidelity just offered up to 2 years package to get older IT workers (ie those who know the existing systems) to leave so they can replace with younger less experienced workers. All these firms are relocating jobs forcing IT and ops staff to move families or leave. They outsource jobs to India etc. I performed complex functions at a high level and never felt it appreciated. When I pointed out places we need to improve, any cost associated was an obstacle. I say this not just about my current employer but prior money managers too.

As long as you keep moving $ to zero/near zero ER funds, and trade at zero commissions, keep zero balance in those cash sweeps, expect the service to decline at any firm. Yes some firms for some periods of time have good service, but then they will merge, or have a reorg and then some new exec will rip out all that worked well in the interest of change (really cost cutting). I have seen the kitchen and find it hard to eat in the restaurant now.
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Re: Vanguard Flagship Services Personal Representative

Post by anon_investor »

beyou wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:17 pm I work in the industry, in fact at a firm that has at times sub-advised Vanguard active funds. The executives in this industry couldn’t care less if their IT and ops employers live or die. Fidelity just offered up to 2 years package to get older IT workers (ie those who know the existing systems) to leave so they can replace with younger less experienced workers. All these firms are relocating jobs forcing IT and ops staff to move families or leave. They outsource jobs to India etc. I performed complex functions at a high level and never felt it appreciated. When I pointed out places we need to improve, any cost associated was an obstacle. I say this not just about my current employer but prior money managers too.

As long as you keep moving $ to zero/near zero ER funds, and trade at zero commissions, keep zero balance in those cash sweeps, expect the service to decline at any firm. Yes some firms for some periods of time have good service, but then they will merge, or have a reorg and then some new exec will rip out all that worked well in the interest of change (really cost cutting). I have seen the kitchen and find it hard to eat in the restaurant now.
So... use portable ETFs, and move when necessary for the best combo of low cost and good customer service?
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Re: Vanguard Flagship Services Personal Representative

Post by nalor511 »

anon_investor wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:26 pm
beyou wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:17 pm I work in the industry, ...
So... use portable ETFs, and move when necessary for the best combo of low cost and good customer service?
Great advice all around
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Re: Vanguard Flagship Services Personal Representative

Post by beyou »

anon_investor wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:26 pm
beyou wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:17 pm I work in the industry, in fact at a firm that has at times sub-advised Vanguard active funds. The executives in this industry couldn’t care less if their IT and ops employers live or die. Fidelity just offered up to 2 years package to get older IT workers (ie those who know the existing systems) to leave so they can replace with younger less experienced workers. All these firms are relocating jobs forcing IT and ops staff to move families or leave. They outsource jobs to India etc. I performed complex functions at a high level and never felt it appreciated. When I pointed out places we need to improve, any cost associated was an obstacle. I say this not just about my current employer but prior money managers too.

As long as you keep moving $ to zero/near zero ER funds, and trade at zero commissions, keep zero balance in those cash sweeps, expect the service to decline at any firm. Yes some firms for some periods of time have good service, but then they will merge, or have a reorg and then some new exec will rip out all that worked well in the interest of change (really cost cutting). I have seen the kitchen and find it hard to eat in the restaurant now.
So... use portable ETFs, and move when necessary for the best combo of low cost and good customer service?
Again, at every brokerage and fund complex they will mess up if things work. Only a matter of time. People like me fix things, then some exec trashes it all to cut costs. Will happen anywhere/everywhere. Deluding yourselves to think Schwab or Fidelity is great. Vanguard used to have great service too. Etrade used to have great service.
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Re: Vanguard Flagship Services Personal Representative

Post by 000 »

beyou, what about using a higher cost service provider?
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Re: Vanguard Flagship Services Personal Representative

Post by beyou »

nalor511 wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:29 pm
anon_investor wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:26 pm
beyou wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:17 pm I work in the industry, ...
So... use portable ETFs, and move when necessary for the best combo of low cost and good customer service?
Great advice all around
If all you do is vti+vxus+bnd and do nothing but rebalance then ANY brokerage firm will do. No reason to complain about any if them. But note NONE of them will perpetually give you good service at low fees.
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Re: Vanguard Flagship Services Personal Representative

Post by nalor511 »

beyou wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:10 pm
nalor511 wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:29 pm
anon_investor wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:26 pm
beyou wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:17 pm I work in the industry, ...
So... use portable ETFs, and move when necessary for the best combo of low cost and good customer service?
Great advice all around
If all you do is vti+vxus+bnd and do nothing but rebalance then ANY brokerage firm will do. No reason to complain about any if them. But note NONE of them will perpetually give you good service at low fees.
Things happen. You don't choose to have an issue Eventually you need help, choose a broker you can contact in the method you prefer. I can't contact Vanguard in writing online. So they don't work (for me)
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Re: Vanguard Flagship Services Personal Representative

Post by NYCaviator »

nalor511 wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:38 pm
Cheez-It Guy wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 11:04 am Yeah, I'm referring to the notion that Vanguard has some top-level plan to exit retail operations and that their strategy to accomplish this is through poor customer service, removing features, and breaking their own app.
I'm not necessarily saying that they have a top level plan to drive customers away, but I do mean that they don't care if you stay. They are perfectly happy if you leave because they're still making money from your ER. It would be so easy to have left the secure message system in place, and just not answer it very quickly... But instead they created all this drama by removing it. Sort of. For some. For now.
I got tired of making excuses for VG's poor service, their awful technology, and constantly breaking app. Folks say they've never had to call in 20 years, what's the big deal, etc. etc.... but wait until you do have an issue and you sit on hold for an hour to talk to someone who can't fix the problem. Compare that to about 5 minutes wait for a friendly and knowledgeable Fidelity / Schwab rep.

I agree that it sure seems like Vanguard is trying to get rid of their retail brokerage and focus more on institutional clients / the funds and ETFs themselves. There is certainly nothing wrong with that, but you can't say that VG's customer service is even remotely good with a straight face.
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Re: Vanguard Flagship Services Personal Representative

Post by stan1 »

000 wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:07 pm beyou, what about using a higher cost service provider?
Speaking from my in-laws experience, their Merrill Lynch Wealth Management local office had a very capable long time employee who took care of administrative issues on behalf of clients. She made sure all the details of in-laws estate were taken care of including partitioning assets to heirs and setting cost basis. She was very reachable and communicated frequently. That said was this final service offering to spouse and sibling worth the 150 basis points FIL paid for decades? I don't think so.
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Re: Vanguard Flagship Services Personal Representative

Post by afan »

nalor511 wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:12 pm

JD Power results are paid for by the company (Vanguard), simple as that
That is not my understanding. Do you have a source for this assertion?
We don't know how to beat the market on a risk-adjusted basis, and we don't know anyone that does know either | --Swedroe | We assume that markets are efficient, that prices are right | --Fama
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Re: Vanguard Flagship Services Personal Representative

Post by nalor511 »

afan wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 6:17 pm
nalor511 wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:12 pm

JD Power results are paid for by the company (Vanguard), simple as that

That is not my understanding. Do you have a source for this assertion?
JD charges companies to use their name and image. The companies that pay them for this licensing fee win these "awards". These "surveys" are paid for by JD customers ... Who "win" the award...

Lots of sources out there with a quick Google. https://www.brightworkresearch.com/how- ... ssociates/
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Cheez-It Guy
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Re: Vanguard Flagship Services Personal Representative

Post by Cheez-It Guy »

You have to be in it to win it, but they're all in it, so isn't this a relatively even playing field provided all the big names have a presence? Or is the suggestion actually that whoever pays the most wins? I'm not sure it's THAT corrupt. . .
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Re: Vanguard Flagship Services Personal Representative

Post by beyou »

nalor511 wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:26 pm
beyou wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:10 pm
nalor511 wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:29 pm
anon_investor wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:26 pm
beyou wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:17 pm I work in the industry, ...
So... use portable ETFs, and move when necessary for the best combo of low cost and good customer service?
Great advice all around
If all you do is vti+vxus+bnd and do nothing but rebalance then ANY brokerage firm will do. No reason to complain about any if them. But note NONE of them will perpetually give you good service at low fees.
Things happen. You don't choose to have an issue Eventually you need help, choose a broker you can contact in the method you prefer. I can't contact Vanguard in writing online. So they don't work (for me)
I do not want to be limited to just ETFs. Nothing against them but there are funds I have invested that have no equivalent (or nothing similar at same ER).

As to messaging them, I still have the capability.
Maybe this is like the dedicated rep, use it or lose it.
I used secure messaging but rarely my dedicated rep.
They took away what I didn’t use and kept what I do use.

Not saying I am happy with all that is Vanguard, but I can say with certainty that you will forever be moving your account as cust svc will ebb and flow in quality at any of these firms. Anything working well to you, is a cost cutting opportunity to brokerage execs. And any brokerage I have used paid great attention until they realize you refuse to buy their high fee services, then they ignore you. If I was a Schwab rep and had a client with 3 fund etf portfolio, what is my incentive to spend time on that account when other clients can make me money. And execs get poor systems fixed, then their replacements see the cost and start ripping apart what was fixed. I see this story over and over in my industry, over 3 decades. You are chasing your tail by moving.

To me this is like the airlines, yes some airlines have slightly better coach experience than others, but unless you are willing to buy first class tickets, even the “best” airline will be a subpar experience and subject to ongoing cost cutting analysis.

You can get what you pay for if you shop carefully, but if unwilling to spend why do you think some competent dedicated rep will be around to help perpetually ? Vanguard is being smart making you pay for PAS to get a rep. If I need a higher level of service frankly I’d go elsewhere and be willing to spend even more than PAS, but I don’t need it. Sorta like buying first class tickets for once in a lifetime long flights, coach for recurring shorter flights. Not comfortable but it gets you there.
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Re: Vanguard Flagship Services Personal Representative

Post by afan »

beyou wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 12:43 pm If I was a Schwab rep and had a client with 3 fund etf portfolio, what is my incentive to spend time on that account when other clients can make me money.
In addition to being paid for selling higher cost services, Schwab reps are paid in part on the basis of total customer assets at the firm. To the extent that reps keep customers happy enough to stay, and to bring in more assets, they get paid more. Schwab publishes how it pays its reps.
https://www.schwab.com/public/file/P-6560610

On the other hand, with a 3-etf portfolio, there is not much time for an advisor to spend on an account.
We don't know how to beat the market on a risk-adjusted basis, and we don't know anyone that does know either | --Swedroe | We assume that markets are efficient, that prices are right | --Fama
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Re: Vanguard Flagship Services Personal Representative

Post by afan »

nalor511 wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 10:04 pm
JD charges companies to use their name and image. The companies that pay them for this licensing fee win these "awards". These "surveys" are paid for by JD customers ... Who "win" the award...

Lots of sources out there with a quick Google. https://www.brightworkresearch.com/how- ... ssociates/
A strange site. Lots of attitude and little in the way of facts. Complaints about some entity called "Gartner" with implications that Power is the same as this company.

As best I understand it, Power does the rankings and companies can pay to use the rankings in advertising. That does not imply that the rankings are determined by those payments. In fact, I don't remember seeing Vanguard advertising its Power rankings, which have been very high year in and year out.
We don't know how to beat the market on a risk-adjusted basis, and we don't know anyone that does know either | --Swedroe | We assume that markets are efficient, that prices are right | --Fama
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Re: Vanguard Flagship Services Personal Representative

Post by Nate79 »

afan wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:01 pm
beyou wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 12:43 pm If I was a Schwab rep and had a client with 3 fund etf portfolio, what is my incentive to spend time on that account when other clients can make me money.
In addition to being paid for selling higher cost services, Schwab reps are paid in part on the basis of total customer assets at the firm. To the extent that reps keep customers happy enough to stay, and to bring in more assets, they get paid more. Schwab publishes how it pays its reps.
https://www.schwab.com/public/file/P-6560610

On the other hand, with a 3-etf portfolio, there is not much time for an advisor to spend on an account.
Does Vanguard have similar incentives for their employees?
nalor511
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Re: Vanguard Flagship Services Personal Representative

Post by nalor511 »

Nate79 wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:21 pm
afan wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:01 pm
beyou wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 12:43 pm If I was a Schwab rep and had a client with 3 fund etf portfolio, what is my incentive to spend time on that account when other clients can make me money.
In addition to being paid for selling higher cost services, Schwab reps are paid in part on the basis of total customer assets at the firm. To the extent that reps keep customers happy enough to stay, and to bring in more assets, they get paid more. Schwab publishes how it pays its reps.
https://www.schwab.com/public/file/P-6560610

On the other hand, with a 3-etf portfolio, there is not much time for an advisor to spend on an account.
Does Vanguard have similar incentives for their employees?
How would one know? Vanguard is not public. Oh wait I'm a part owner of Vanguard so I will go check... nope, they don't share anything extra with us "owners". Transparency, another reason to choose Schwab
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Re: Vanguard Flagship Services Personal Representative

Post by Sandtrap »

Long ago, I was assigned a specific flagship rep at vanguard. He had a team under him that took care of most things but if I needed to talk to him directly I could.
They were helpful in setting up my trust accounts but never needed anything since then.
2 consults with VPAS long ago were s waste of time. They kept saying they were busy and pressed for time and it was there way on the spot or hit the road.

Reps at TDAmeritrade kept calling me monthly so I left them.

A single assigned rep at Schwab kept calling me every so often until I transferred most to Vanguard then he stopped calling.

I think it has to do with the size of the bait and how fresh it is.

J🌺
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nalor511
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Re: Vanguard Flagship Services Personal Representative

Post by nalor511 »

Sandtrap wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:03 pm Long ago, I was assigned a specific flagship rep at vanguard. He had a team under him that took care of most things but if I needed to talk to him directly I could.
They were helpful in setting up my trust accounts but never needed anything since then.
2 consults with VPAS long ago were s waste of time. They kept saying they were busy and pressed for time and it was there way on the spot or hit the road.

Reps at TDAmeritrade kept calling me monthly so I left them.

A single assigned rep at Schwab kept calling me every so often until I transferred most to Vanguard then he stopped calling.

I think it has to do with the size of the bait and how fresh it is.

J🌺
Super weird, I guess it depends who you get, Schwab never calls me... If they did I would tell them to stop
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Cheez-It Guy
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Re: Vanguard Flagship Services Personal Representative

Post by Cheez-It Guy »

It's almost as if there's variability based on the individuals you happen to deal with in any organization. . .
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Re: Vanguard Flagship Services Personal Representative

Post by anon_investor »

Cheez-It Guy wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:26 am It's almost as if there's variability based on the individuals you happen to deal with in any organization. . .
What they aren't all robots? This is 2021, we were promised as kids that robots would replace humans by now!
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Re: Vanguard Flagship Services Personal Representative

Post by Cheez-It Guy »

anon_investor wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:29 am
Cheez-It Guy wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:26 am It's almost as if there's variability based on the individuals you happen to deal with in any organization. . .
What they aren't all robots? This is 2021, we were promised as kids that robots would replace humans by now!
Yes, and how are you enjoying your flying car?
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Re: Vanguard Flagship Services Personal Representative

Post by anon_investor »

Cheez-It Guy wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:37 am
anon_investor wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:29 am
Cheez-It Guy wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:26 am It's almost as if there's variability based on the individuals you happen to deal with in any organization. . .
What they aren't all robots? This is 2021, we were promised as kids that robots would replace humans by now!
Yes, and how are you enjoying your flying car?
It's back ordered... along with every other car.

I wish Vanguard would allow for MF to ETF conversions online instead of calling in. They had a pilot program for that, but it ended. I never had the option, but my spouse did and it looked easy enough. That probably would cut down some on the need for calls for some folks.
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Re: Vanguard Flagship Services Personal Representative

Post by bertilak »

anon_investor wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:57 am I wish Vanguard would allow for MF to ETF conversions online instead of calling in. They had a pilot program for that, but it ended. I never had the option, but my spouse did and it looked easy enough. That probably would cut down some on the need for calls for some folks.
How long ago was the pilot program? Perhaps the real thing is just on the horizon.

A conversion from MF to ETF is a one-time activity and perhaps they didn't feel automating it was worth the trouble.
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Re: Vanguard Flagship Services Personal Representative

Post by stan1 »

bertilak wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 9:29 am
anon_investor wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:57 am I wish Vanguard would allow for MF to ETF conversions online instead of calling in. They had a pilot program for that, but it ended. I never had the option, but my spouse did and it looked easy enough. That probably would cut down some on the need for calls for some folks.
How long ago was the pilot program? Perhaps the real thing is just on the horizon.

A conversion from MF to ETF is a one-time activity and perhaps they didn't feel automating it was worth the trouble.
I think they were getting people who had regrets about doing the conversion and wanted to reverse it despite the very clear wording that it was not reversible. Now they read a script approved by their attorneys and get a recorded verbal acknowledgement that mutual fund to ETF conversion cannot be reversed.
Last edited by stan1 on Sun Nov 28, 2021 9:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vanguard Flagship Services Personal Representative

Post by anon_investor »

bertilak wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 9:29 am
anon_investor wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:57 am I wish Vanguard would allow for MF to ETF conversions online instead of calling in. They had a pilot program for that, but it ended. I never had the option, but my spouse did and it looked easy enough. That probably would cut down some on the need for calls for some folks.
How long ago was the pilot program? Perhaps the real thing is just on the horizon.

A conversion from MF to ETF is a one-time activity and perhaps they didn't feel automating it was worth the trouble.
It was either 2019 or 2020. You could only convert an entire MF position to ETF (not a partial amount, as you can do over the phone). If Vanguard allowed for partial conversions online, I bet that service would be utilized.
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Re: Vanguard Flagship Services Personal Representative

Post by bertilak »

stan1 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 9:44 am
bertilak wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 9:29 am
anon_investor wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:57 am I wish Vanguard would allow for MF to ETF conversions online instead of calling in. They had a pilot program for that, but it ended. I never had the option, but my spouse did and it looked easy enough. That probably would cut down some on the need for calls for some folks.
How long ago was the pilot program? Perhaps the real thing is just on the horizon.

A conversion from MF to ETF is a one-time activity and perhaps they didn't feel automating it was worth the trouble.
I think they were getting people who had regrets about doing the conversion and wanted to reverse it despite the very clear wording that it was not reversible. Now they read a script approved by their attorneys and get a recorded verbal acknowledgement that mutual fund to ETF conversion cannot be reversed.
Ah, that makes sense. Being a one-shot, irreversible, action does require some careful consideration. Vanguard is rightly wary of being responsible!
May neither drought nor rain nor blizzard disturb the joy juice in your gizzard. -- Squire Omar Barker (aka S.O.B.), the Cowboy Poet
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Re: Vanguard Flagship Services Personal Representative

Post by nedsaid »

beyou wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:17 pm I work in the industry, in fact at a firm that has at times sub-advised Vanguard active funds. The executives in this industry couldn’t care less if their IT and ops employers live or die. Fidelity just offered up to 2 years package to get older IT workers (ie those who know the existing systems) to leave so they can replace with younger less experienced workers. All these firms are relocating jobs forcing IT and ops staff to move families or leave. They outsource jobs to India etc. I performed complex functions at a high level and never felt it appreciated. When I pointed out places we need to improve, any cost associated was an obstacle. I say this not just about my current employer but prior money managers too.

As long as you keep moving $ to zero/near zero ER funds, and trade at zero commissions, keep zero balance in those cash sweeps, expect the service to decline at any firm. Yes some firms for some periods of time have good service, but then they will merge, or have a reorg and then some new exec will rip out all that worked well in the interest of change (really cost cutting). I have seen the kitchen and find it hard to eat in the restaurant now.
This is a great post, it echoes a lot of things that I have said, that is good customer service is worth something and Bogleheads don't want to pay any extra for it. In the relentless race to zero, something has to give.

I would also say that IT is a very unappreciated field and it seems that once you hit 50 that you are targeted for lay-off. I feel badly for employees to toil for their companies for years only to get outsourced and offshored. Whenever I see a CEO comment that good employees are very hard to find, I want to throw a brick through the TV.
A fool and his money are good for business.
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Re: Vanguard Flagship Services Personal Representative

Post by beyou »

afan wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:01 pm
beyou wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 12:43 pm If I was a Schwab rep and had a client with 3 fund etf portfolio, what is my incentive to spend time on that account when other clients can make me money.
In addition to being paid for selling higher cost services, Schwab reps are paid in part on the basis of total customer assets at the firm. To the extent that reps keep customers happy enough to stay, and to bring in more assets, they get paid more. Schwab publishes how it pays its reps.
https://www.schwab.com/public/file/P-6560610

On the other hand, with a 3-etf portfolio, there is not much time for an advisor to spend on an account.
Again, I have worked in this industry for over 3 decades. I have at times worked on applications that calculate compensation for reps. In IT we could rely on steady work from regular changes in the comp plan (among many other things that change). Execs argue about how much should a salesperson be paid for ongoing aum. Many argue the client would stay once the account is opened and only new clients/new deposits should be compensated. Others argued we need reps to keep clients happy then argue to keep paying the reps a declining aum % assuming that if a client stays long enough we no longer need to pay reps at some point in the future.

Points :

1) Things change constantly

2) brokerages that have no revenue coming in wont perpetually pay “your guy” if he brings in no revenue from you.

3) keeping all your assets in Vanguard etf at Schwab with no cash balances and no managed account does NOT bring in revenue for Schwab or any broker. No revenue, eventually the rules of comp for reps will change.

This is a game to raid competitors, try and lock you in, then remove services. Mark my words, Vanguard did this (no more Flagship dedicated reps) and many other brokers have done so, Schwab will eventually do so. Paying comp without revenue is unsustainable. These are businesses, not charities.
You will have to be prepared to move your account periodically as winners pull back such incentives and losers in the industry to to steal assets from the winners. BlackRock and Vanguard are clear winners. Neither pays you a bonus to move in assets. Neither has outstanding service (Blackrock none at all, not even a broker). Everyone else needs to find ways to make money despite these 2 firms gathering so much share of assets. They will say or so anything ….until they succeed, just as Vanguard did.
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Re: Vanguard Flagship Services Personal Representative

Post by Stinky »

beyou wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:57 pm This is a game to raid competitors, try and lock you in, then remove services. Mark my words, Vanguard did this (no more Flagship dedicated reps) and many other brokers have done so, Schwab will eventually do so. Paying comp without revenue is unsustainable. These are businesses, not charities.

You will have to be prepared to move your account periodically as winners pull back such incentives and losers in the industry to to steal assets from the winners.
This is a pretty cynical view of the industry. :twisted:

Unfortunately, it may also be a correct view of the industry.
Retired life insurance company financial executive who sincerely believes that ”It’s a GREAT day to be alive!”
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Re: Vanguard Flagship Services Personal Representative

Post by delamer »

Stinky wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:11 pm
beyou wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:57 pm This is a game to raid competitors, try and lock you in, then remove services. Mark my words, Vanguard did this (no more Flagship dedicated reps) and many other brokers have done so, Schwab will eventually do so. Paying comp without revenue is unsustainable. These are businesses, not charities.

You will have to be prepared to move your account periodically as winners pull back such incentives and losers in the industry to to steal assets from the winners.
This is a pretty cynical view of the industry. :twisted:

Unfortunately, it may also be a correct view of the industry.
As a wise person once pointed out, intelligent, hardworking people pick finance as a career because making money is their principal goal.

That’s the reason that this forum’s namesake was such a huge outlier. He was motivated to give the average investor a fair playing field, not just to line his pockets.
One thing that humbles me deeply is to see that human genius has its limits while human stupidity does not. - Alexandre Dumas, fils
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Re: Vanguard Flagship Services Personal Representative

Post by Broken Man 1999 »

delamer wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:43 pm
Stinky wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:11 pm
beyou wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:57 pm This is a game to raid competitors, try and lock you in, then remove services. Mark my words, Vanguard did this (no more Flagship dedicated reps) and many other brokers have done so, Schwab will eventually do so. Paying comp without revenue is unsustainable. These are businesses, not charities.

You will have to be prepared to move your account periodically as winners pull back such incentives and losers in the industry to to steal assets from the winners.
This is a pretty cynical view of the industry. :twisted:

Unfortunately, it may also be a correct view of the industry.
As a wise person once pointed out, intelligent, hardworking people pick finance as a career because making money is their principal goal.

That’s the reason that this forum’s namesake was such a huge outlier. He was motivated to give the average investor a fair playing field, not just to line his pockets.
Indeed. Instead, Mr Bogle made it possible for the investors to line THEIR pockets.

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Re: Vanguard Flagship Services Personal Representative

Post by DRDR »

bertilak wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 5:52 pm
shess wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:12 pm So, I'll be honest, I miss my rep. I don't miss him like I actually talked to him and he had keen insights into our situation, etc. I miss him like there was a point person I spoke with when I had problems to resolve with my accounts, and even though all of his familiarity with our situation was surely by way of a screen of text he had just skimmed before talking to me, it still leveraged social assumptions.
The reason I miss having an assigned rep is it gave me confidence that
  1. Any issue would be carried to resolution by the same person so I would not have to start from the begoinning with every phone call.
  2. Similarly, someone would feel responsibility for resolving an issue.
+1!
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Re: Vanguard Flagship Services Personal Representative

Post by beyou »

beyou wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:17 pm I work in the industry, in fact at a firm that has at times sub-advised Vanguard active funds. The executives in this industry couldn’t care less if their IT and ops employers live or die. Fidelity just offered up to 2 years package to get older IT workers (ie those who know the existing systems) to leave so they can replace with younger less experienced workers. All these firms are relocating jobs forcing IT and ops staff to move families or leave. They outsource jobs to India etc. I performed complex functions at a high level and never felt it appreciated. When I pointed out places we need to improve, any cost associated was an obstacle. I say this not just about my current employer but prior money managers too.

As long as you keep moving $ to zero/near zero ER funds, and trade at zero commissions, keep zero balance in those cash sweeps, expect the service to decline at any firm. Yes some firms for some periods of time have good service, but then they will merge, or have a reorg and then some new exec will rip out all that worked well in the interest of change (really cost cutting). I have seen the kitchen and find it hard to eat in the restaurant now.
Recent industry news :
"At Schwab, 5.8 million new brokerage accounts opened year-to-date through October, bringing total accounts to 32.7 million, the company reported last month. By comparison, about 1.2 million new accounts were opened with the firm during the same nine-month period in 2019."

Schwab adding accounts at 5x the rate pre-pandemic, and going on a hiring spree to try and handle this.
They are potentially where Vanguard was just a few years ago, a much beloved firm that could be a victim of their own success.
At the same time they are working on the merger with TD Ameritrade. I have seen how that works, mergers can take YEARS of IT projects to accomplish any consolidation beyond email/desktop changes for their employees. Schwab will have their hands full for next few years, we'll see if they can handle it while also moving/expanding to TX. Note move of the industry talent is in NYC, Boston and Chicago, and MANY employers are trying to train people new to the industry and recruit people to move away from those cities. Good luck, my firm has had a tough time filling industry specific roles in our new cheaper locations in that region. Yeah we can hire a PC desktop support person or an accts payable person anywhere, but find people who understand bonds, derivatives, electronic trading and such, in TX and nearby states, good luck.

Fidelity is doing the same, hiring lots of new client service reps and IT staff who make their jobs easier to service clients.
There is a talent war and mass effort to train new hires across the industry. Expect the service level to decline at all these firms.
I see on linkedin new Vanguard hires out of school with no relevant experience, and every one of them will be CSRs.
Only other solution is to compete with Schwab and Fidelity to hire experienced reps and IT support, not easy today.
I plan to retire from the industry and many have asked me to consider not retiring and work for them, there is a desperate need for staff
at all these firms, in the midst of forcing people to RTO and relocate to new cities where they may not have family. Better hope all your needs are met on the website and you don't have to call them often !
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Re: Vanguard Flagship Services Personal Representative

Post by Stubbie »

beyou wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:05 am
beyou wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:17 pm I work in the industry, in fact at a firm that has at times sub-advised Vanguard active funds. The executives in this industry couldn’t care less if their IT and ops employers live or die. Fidelity just offered up to 2 years package to get older IT workers (ie those who know the existing systems) to leave so they can replace with younger less experienced workers. All these firms are relocating jobs forcing IT and ops staff to move families or leave. They outsource jobs to India etc. I performed complex functions at a high level and never felt it appreciated. When I pointed out places we need to improve, any cost associated was an obstacle. I say this not just about my current employer but prior money managers too.

As long as you keep moving $ to zero/near zero ER funds, and trade at zero commissions, keep zero balance in those cash sweeps, expect the service to decline at any firm. Yes some firms for some periods of time have good service, but then they will merge, or have a reorg and then some new exec will rip out all that worked well in the interest of change (really cost cutting). I have seen the kitchen and find it hard to eat in the restaurant now.
Recent industry news :
"At Schwab, 5.8 million new brokerage accounts opened year-to-date through October, bringing total accounts to 32.7 million, the company reported last month. By comparison, about 1.2 million new accounts were opened with the firm during the same nine-month period in 2019."

Schwab adding accounts at 5x the rate pre-pandemic, and going on a hiring spree to try and handle this.
They are potentially where Vanguard was just a few years ago, a much beloved firm that could be a victim of their own success.
At the same time they are working on the merger with TD Ameritrade. I have seen how that works, mergers can take YEARS of IT projects to accomplish any consolidation beyond email/desktop changes for their employees. Schwab will have their hands full for next few years, we'll see if they can handle it while also moving/expanding to TX. Note move of the industry talent is in NYC, Boston and Chicago, and MANY employers are trying to train people new to the industry and recruit people to move away from those cities. Good luck, my firm has had a tough time filling industry specific roles in our new cheaper locations in that region. Yeah we can hire a PC desktop support person or an accts payable person anywhere, but find people who understand bonds, derivatives, electronic trading and such, in TX and nearby states, good luck.

Fidelity is doing the same, hiring lots of new client service reps and IT staff who make their jobs easier to service clients.
There is a talent war and mass effort to train new hires across the industry. Expect the service level to decline at all these firms.
I see on linkedin new Vanguard hires out of school with no relevant experience, and every one of them will be CSRs.
Only other solution is to compete with Schwab and Fidelity to hire experienced reps and IT support, not easy today.
I plan to retire from the industry and many have asked me to consider not retiring and work for them, there is a desperate need for staff
at all these firms, in the midst of forcing people to RTO and relocate to new cities where they may not have family. Better hope all your needs are met on the website and you don't have to call them often !
You just made my day! :( :( :(
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Re: Vanguard Flagship Services Personal Representative

Post by northfork »

Folks, what am I missing?

This thread sounds as if people are saying Fidelity offers a dedicated advisor for accounts over 250k or more with the implication that this is a no charge service (eq. to this Vanguard Flagship Advisor?).

Unless I'm missing the point, this is not the case. I am at fidelity and don't (AFAIK) have a dedicated advisor. Furthermore, the 250k mentioned on this page involves AUM type fees.

https://www.fidelity.com/wealth-management/overview
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Re: Vanguard Flagship Services Personal Representative

Post by jeffyscott »

northfork wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 6:07 pm Folks, what am I missing?
Link in an earlier post indicates that DIY may get a dedicated financial professional:
viewtopic.php?p=6346744#p6346744
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Re: Vanguard Flagship Services Personal Representative

Post by CRC_Volunteer »

retire2022 wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:51 pm Op

With 2.7 million since August 2021 I am still waiting for upgrade to F***Ship, a euphemism for Flagship status, let along from a pool of advisors (seamen) have yet to contact me.

I have yet to abandon ship, pun intended.

We shall see what future will bring 😝
When I had not been upgraded, I just called Sales and they looked into. Within a week, I received notification of the upgrade.
"Let me explain. No, there is too much. Let me sum up." (Inigo Montoya) | | 65/30/05 | 53% VTSAX | 12% VTIAX | 30% VAIPX | 5% CASH
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Re: Vanguard Flagship Services Personal Representative

Post by retire2022 »

CRC_Volunteer wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 6:58 pm
When I had not been upgraded, I just called Sales and they looked into. Within a week, I received notification of the upgrade.
CRC

Thanks for your suggestion, in another thread, I had mentioned, that I had spoke to the Vanguard transfer specialist, and they mentioned the upgrade is based on three month review, I had sent them an email via secure messaging, which SM has not been taken away.

At end of Oct 2021, I had follow-up on my email with a phone call and they transferred me to at least four different people and echoed this same statement that every quarter they will review and upgrade.

A few weeks later in middle of Nov 2021 I received an email response that indicated my account balance August 11, 2021 was 811k.

I will wait for end of Dec 2021 to see if they will reconsider, I don't expect anything with FS, so it is no worry.

BTW the desktop web layout changed back to an older presentation, this evening.

Thanks for your advice and concern.
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Re: Vanguard Flagship Services Personal Representative

Post by CRC_Volunteer »

retire2022 wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:09 pm
CRC_Volunteer wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 6:58 pm
When I had not been upgraded, I just called Sales and they looked into. Within a week, I received notification of the upgrade.
CRC

Thanks for your suggestion, in another thread, I had mentioned, that I had spoke to the Vanguard transfer specialist, and they mentioned the upgrade is based on three month review, I had sent them an email via secure messaging, which SM has not been taken away.

At end of Oct 2021, I had follow-up on my email with a phone call and they transferred me to at least four different people and echoed this same statement that every quarter they will review and upgrade.

A few weeks later in middle of Nov 2021 I received an email response that indicated my account balance August 11, 2021 was 811k.

I will wait for end of Dec 2021 to see if they will reconsider, I don't expect anything with FS, so it is no worry.

BTW the desktop web layout changed back to an older presentation, this evening.

Thanks for your advice and concern.
As for the web layout, my desktop and iPad changed to the new version tonight. Bizarre…
"Let me explain. No, there is too much. Let me sum up." (Inigo Montoya) | | 65/30/05 | 53% VTSAX | 12% VTIAX | 30% VAIPX | 5% CASH
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Re: Vanguard Flagship Services Personal Representative

Post by northfork »

jeffyscott wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 6:29 pm
northfork wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 6:07 pm Folks, what am I missing?
Link in an earlier post indicates that DIY may get a dedicated financial professional:
viewtopic.php?p=6346744#p6346744
I don't think so but I'd like to be wrong on this. I think if you dig into the link you'll end up with the AUM-esque advisory arrangement that I alluded to but hopefully I'm wrong!
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