[Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Discuss all general (i.e. non-personal) investing questions and issues, investing news, and theory.
retiringwhen
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by retiringwhen »

jeffyscott wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 1:41 pm Is it AUM?

Fund flows is, presumably, counting assets by fund family. So buying Vanguard at Fidelity, Schwab, E-Trade, etc. all counts as assets going to Vanguard.

But Vanguard is said to have $7 trillion in AUM, does that include Vanguard funds held at Schwab? I don't see how that can be, since Schwab is said to have several trillions in AUM and that, I assume, includes all assets at Schwab not just assets in Schwab funds. Or are they double counting assets in Vanguard funds at Schwab as AUM for both?
Yes as noted in the original post, it is total AUM regardless of brokerage custodian. It was used as a proxy to what we all want to know.

I would love to see a Brokerage Custodial AUM number, but they don't seem to be published. If anyone knows of a source, I'd be happy to share and analyze.
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starboi
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by starboi »

Cheez-It Guy wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 10:01 am As someone pointed else already pointed out, Amazon hides their phone number as well, so hopefully no mere commoners upset about having to work a little for a phone number are ordering anything from them. A company known for caring nothing about their customers.
They have live chat, and it works very well.
retiringwhen
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by retiringwhen »

I just got a newsletter from Vanguard due to being a 401K participant at Vanguard. The headline was touting their new retirement plans website. I have used it and I have given lots of feedback about usability (it is not necessarily a move forward from my perspective).

What is germaine to this thread though is the list of new features being rolled out:
https://retirementplans.vanguard.com/VGApp/pe/edufreshness/see_our_new_website?cmpgn=PE%3BTHLDR%3BCOMM%3Bsee_our_new_website%3BEM%3BNWLTR%3B%3B%3B%3B%3B#!/#%2F wrote: Here are just some of the changes you'll see now or in the near future:

Vanguard Chat. This chat feature can provide instant answers, 24/7. The chat can guide you to what you want to accomplish on our site and help you to find what you’re looking for. Just click the Chat icon and type in a question. No waiting.

Simplified navigation and conversational language. We know it can be hard sometimes to search a website and find exactly what you're looking for. And even if you do find it, the instructions may be difficult to understand. That's why our site focuses on simplified navigation and plain talk language.

Education and guidance at key moments. When it's relevant to you, you'll see personalized tools and links you can use to learn more, seek advice, or help you along to your next steps—whether it's saving more for retirement, accessing your money in a pinch, or making the most of your retirement plan.

A modern design. The website has a new look and feel. You will see an at-a-glance view of your retirement plan, giving you a full picture of where you stand. You can then drill down into each subject with additional views, data, and insights.
Our reimagined website was created with you in mind. It puts everything you need to map out your retirement goals right at your fingertips.
It will be interesting to see how this rolls out for 401K and if that feature will show up for retail investors too?
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Nate79
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by Nate79 »

retiringwhen wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:17 pm I just got a newsletter from Vanguard due to being a 401K participant at Vanguard. The headline was touting their new retirement plans website. I have used it and I have given lots of feedback about usability (it is not necessarily a move forward from my perspective).

What is germaine to this thread though is the list of new features being rolled out:
https://retirementplans.vanguard.com/VGApp/pe/edufreshness/see_our_new_website?cmpgn=PE%3BTHLDR%3BCOMM%3Bsee_our_new_website%3BEM%3BNWLTR%3B%3B%3B%3B%3B#!/#%2F wrote: Here are just some of the changes you'll see now or in the near future:

Vanguard Chat. This chat feature can provide instant answers, 24/7. The chat can guide you to what you want to accomplish on our site and help you to find what you’re looking for. Just click the Chat icon and type in a question. No waiting.

Simplified navigation and conversational language. We know it can be hard sometimes to search a website and find exactly what you're looking for. And even if you do find it, the instructions may be difficult to understand. That's why our site focuses on simplified navigation and plain talk language.

Education and guidance at key moments. When it's relevant to you, you'll see personalized tools and links you can use to learn more, seek advice, or help you along to your next steps—whether it's saving more for retirement, accessing your money in a pinch, or making the most of your retirement plan.

A modern design. The website has a new look and feel. You will see an at-a-glance view of your retirement plan, giving you a full picture of where you stand. You can then drill down into each subject with additional views, data, and insights.
Our reimagined website was created with you in mind. It puts everything you need to map out your retirement goals right at your fingertips.
It will be interesting to see how this rolls out for 401K and if that feature will show up for retail investors too?
Their wording about their "chat" seems a little strange and hints that it isn't chatting with a person but a bot where you ask a question and the computer tries to answer it. My experience with these with other companies has been pretty pathetic but calling it a "chat" is really stretching it.
retiringwhen
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by retiringwhen »

Nate79 wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:19 pm Their wording about their "chat" seems a little strange and hints that it isn't chatting with a person but a bot where you ask a question and the computer tries to answer it. My experience with these with other companies has been pretty pathetic but calling it a "chat" is really stretching it.
By far, most chat engines actually start with an AI/bot, the only question is how fast can you get to a human (most "human" interactions are surely actually just the bot at the beginning). This sounds like it will be on the hard side.
jda
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by jda »

Thank you for letting us know about this transition. I have been wanting to get out of Vanguard for years, this finally pushes me over the edge.

I have contacted Vanguard to convert all of my mutual fund to ETF so I can transfer them out in kind. This request alone took 3 different representatives to complete. The first representative couldn't do it, and transferred me to the second representative who also couldn't do it. Finally the third person was able to complete the request, but my call was dropped in the process and it took 30 min just for a simple request that should/could have done online.

I see very little value staying with Vanguard at this point since their cost advantage can be replicate by purchasing Vanguard ETFs at other brokerages. Their web and app interface is primitive and their customer service is average at best.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by LadyGeek »

Whakamole wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 11:24 am
retiringwhen wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 10:43 am I will just point out that the crowd is running the other direction TO Vanguard. Morningstar's July Fund Flows shows that Vanguard took more assets under management (this is Funds, not Brokerage I know) in July than the rest of the industry combined.
That's AUM. Very different from which broker you use. You can buy Vanguard ETFs at any broker (and iShares, and Fidelity, and Schwab...)

Since I'm consolidating at Fidelity - even opening up a checking account to see if the one stop shop works for me - I'll start exchanging funds from Vanguard to Fidelity in my tax-protected accounts at some point. Call it a thank-you bonus. Their fund ERs being cheaper doesn't hurt either.
Is this what you're looking for? World's Top Asset Management Firms
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Munir
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by Munir »

abuss368 wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 1:53 pm I have never had a need to use the secure messages as the years have gone by and the journey continues. If an issue or questions arises I simply called them and received good service.

Tony
Totally agree.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by McDougal »

LadyGeek wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 3:07 pm
Whakamole wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 11:24 am
retiringwhen wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 10:43 am I will just point out that the crowd is running the other direction TO Vanguard. Morningstar's July Fund Flows shows that Vanguard took more assets under management (this is Funds, not Brokerage I know) in July than the rest of the industry combined.
That's AUM. Very different from which broker you use. You can buy Vanguard ETFs at any broker (and iShares, and Fidelity, and Schwab...)

Since I'm consolidating at Fidelity - even opening up a checking account to see if the one stop shop works for me - I'll start exchanging funds from Vanguard to Fidelity in my tax-protected accounts at some point. Call it a thank-you bonus. Their fund ERs being cheaper doesn't hurt either.
Is this what you're looking for? World's Top Asset Management Firms
Looks like they omitted Schwab at around $6T?
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by lazynovice »

McDougal wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 3:32 pm
LadyGeek wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 3:07 pm
Whakamole wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 11:24 am
retiringwhen wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 10:43 am I will just point out that the crowd is running the other direction TO Vanguard. Morningstar's July Fund Flows shows that Vanguard took more assets under management (this is Funds, not Brokerage I know) in July than the rest of the industry combined.
That's AUM. Very different from which broker you use. You can buy Vanguard ETFs at any broker (and iShares, and Fidelity, and Schwab...)

Since I'm consolidating at Fidelity - even opening up a checking account to see if the one stop shop works for me - I'll start exchanging funds from Vanguard to Fidelity in my tax-protected accounts at some point. Call it a thank-you bonus. Their fund ERs being cheaper doesn't hurt either.
Is this what you're looking for? World's Top Asset Management Firms
Looks like they omitted Schwab at around $6T?
I don’t think Blackrock has a brokerage so I think that list is looking at fund size. US News lists Fidelity as the largest brokerage in June.

https://money.usnews.com/investing/port ... -this-year
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jeffyscott
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by jeffyscott »

retiringwhen wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:06 pm
jeffyscott wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 1:41 pm Is it AUM?

Fund flows is, presumably, counting assets by fund family. So buying Vanguard at Fidelity, Schwab, E-Trade, etc. all counts as assets going to Vanguard.

But Vanguard is said to have $7 trillion in AUM, does that include Vanguard funds held at Schwab? I don't see how that can be, since Schwab is said to have several trillions in AUM and that, I assume, includes all assets at Schwab not just assets in Schwab funds. Or are they double counting assets in Vanguard funds at Schwab as AUM for both?
Yes as noted in the original post, it is total AUM regardless of brokerage custodian. It was used as a proxy to what we all want to know.

I would love to see a Brokerage Custodial AUM number, but they don't seem to be published. If anyone knows of a source, I'd be happy to share and analyze.
I think you misunderstood, my question was regarding the meaning of AUM? I understand that the graphic was clearly about which fund companies have the assets, not which brokerages.

Schwab has $6.7 trillion in "assets under management", I am pretty sure that total includes all assets held at the brokerage, not just the assets in Schwab mutual funds and ETFs. Some of that $6.7 trillion is invested Vanguard funds and most of the $6.7 trillion is not invested in Schwab funds, so does the money get counted as being "under the management" of Schwab as well as being "under the management" of the fund companies?

I think it does get counted twice in those cases, since Blackrock has about $9 trillion in AUM, with the vast majority of that not being held directly at Blackrock.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by lazynovice »

jeffyscott wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 3:48 pm
retiringwhen wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:06 pm
jeffyscott wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 1:41 pm Is it AUM?

Fund flows is, presumably, counting assets by fund family. So buying Vanguard at Fidelity, Schwab, E-Trade, etc. all counts as assets going to Vanguard.

But Vanguard is said to have $7 trillion in AUM, does that include Vanguard funds held at Schwab? I don't see how that can be, since Schwab is said to have several trillions in AUM and that, I assume, includes all assets at Schwab not just assets in Schwab funds. Or are they double counting assets in Vanguard funds at Schwab as AUM for both?
Yes as noted in the original post, it is total AUM regardless of brokerage custodian. It was used as a proxy to what we all want to know.

I would love to see a Brokerage Custodial AUM number, but they don't seem to be published. If anyone knows of a source, I'd be happy to share and analyze.
I think you misunderstood, my question was regarding the meaning of AUM? I understand that the graphic was clearly about which fund companies have the assets, not which brokerages.

Schwab has $6.7 trillion in "assets under management", I am pretty sure that total includes all assets held at the brokerage, not just the assets in Schwab mutual funds and ETFs. Some of that $6.7 trillion is invested Vanguard funds and most of the $6.7 trillion is not invested in Schwab funds, so does the money get counted as being "under the management" of Schwab as well as being "under the management" of the fund companies?

I think it does get counted twice in those cases, since Blackrock has about $9 trillion in AUM, with the vast majority of that not being held directly at Blackrock.
I think you are right. Not sure there is any external reporting otherwise. I am sure there is internal reporting at a brokerage of how much is home-team funds versus external funds versus individual stocks/bonds. But I doubt it is public.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by galawdawg »

McDougal wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 3:32 pm
LadyGeek wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 3:07 pm
Whakamole wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 11:24 am
retiringwhen wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 10:43 am I will just point out that the crowd is running the other direction TO Vanguard. Morningstar's July Fund Flows shows that Vanguard took more assets under management (this is Funds, not Brokerage I know) in July than the rest of the industry combined.
That's AUM. Very different from which broker you use. You can buy Vanguard ETFs at any broker (and iShares, and Fidelity, and Schwab...)

Since I'm consolidating at Fidelity - even opening up a checking account to see if the one stop shop works for me - I'll start exchanging funds from Vanguard to Fidelity in my tax-protected accounts at some point. Call it a thank-you bonus. Their fund ERs being cheaper doesn't hurt either.
Is this what you're looking for? World's Top Asset Management Firms
Looks like they omitted Schwab at around $6T?
The Morningstar monthly fund flows reports are incomplete and exclude any fund families that haven't reported fund flows by Morningstar's editorial deadline.

In July 2021, Vanguard had net new assets of about $36.4 billion, Schwab had net new assets of about $44.3 billion. In June 2021, Vanguard had net new assets of about $25.2 billion, during that same month Schwab had net new assets of about $43.4 billion.

For the first half of this year, Vanguard had net new assets of about $220.19 billion.
And Schwab for the same period.....about $242.6 billion.

As of the end of June 2021, Schwab held about $7.67 trillion in client assets. Vanguard was at $7.2 trillion on January 31, 2021, and adding their net inflows reported from February 1, 2021 through June 30, 2021, Vanguard should be at about $7.38 trillion as of the end of June 2021.

In summary, unless my math calculations are incorrect (and they were checked twice):

Schwab's net inflows for 2021 have outpaced net inflows at Vanguard.
Schwab now has more AUM than Vanguard.

Morningstar releases their reports on inflow only for those funds that generally report net assets on or before the 12th (give or take a day) of each month. It appears that Schwab generally reports their figures after that deadline. Perhaps that is why Schwab is not included in those Morningstar monthly fund inflow articles. However, anyone can look at Schwab's SEC filings and see the reported fund inflows and assets under management. It just takes a little bit of effort.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by nalor511 »

Munir wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 3:14 pm
abuss368 wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 1:53 pm I have never had a need to use the secure messages as the years have gone by and the journey continues. If an issue or questions arises I simply called them and received good service.

Tony
Totally agree.
Totally, utterly, overwhelmingly disagree.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by beyou »

jeffyscott wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 1:41 pm
Whakamole wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 11:24 am
retiringwhen wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 10:43 am I will just point out that the crowd is running the other direction TO Vanguard. Morningstar's July Fund Flows shows that Vanguard took more assets under management (this is Funds, not Brokerage I know) in July than the rest of the industry combined.
That's AUM. Very different from which broker you use. You can buy Vanguard ETFs at any broker (and iShares, and Fidelity, and Schwab...)
Is it AUM?

Fund flows is, presumably, counting assets by fund family. So buying Vanguard at Fidelity, Schwab, E-Trade, etc. all counts as assets going to Vanguard.

But Vanguard is said to have $7 trillion in AUM, does that include Vanguard funds held at Schwab? I don't see how that can be, since Schwab is said to have several trillions in AUM and that, I assume, includes all assets at Schwab not just assets in Schwab funds. Or are they double counting assets in Vanguard funds at Schwab as AUM for both?
Vanguard absolutely includes money from outside brokers in their AUM. As do all fund managers.
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Munir
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by Munir »

nalor511 wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 4:33 pm
Munir wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 3:14 pm
abuss368 wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 1:53 pm I have never had a need to use the secure messages as the years have gone by and the journey continues. If an issue or questions arises I simply called them and received good service.

Tony
Totally agree.
Totally, utterly, overwhelmingly disagree.
I'm sorry that you do.
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Cheez-It Guy
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by Cheez-It Guy »

jda wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:48 pm . . .
I have contacted Vanguard to convert all of my mutual fund to ETF so I can transfer them out in kind. This request alone took 3 different representatives to complete. The first representative couldn't do it, and transferred me to the second representative who also couldn't do it. Finally the third person was able to complete the request, but my call was dropped in the process and it took 30 min just for a simple request that should/could have done online.
. . .
You should try converting your mutual fund holdings to ETFs tax-free online at another broker and see how easy it is.
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by Gort »

Gort wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 11:20 am
nalor511 wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 8:18 pm
Gort wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 6:51 pm
OpenMinded1 wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 10:57 am Just got done talking to a Vanguard rep over the phone. I called with a question about beneficiaries, but brought up that I was disappointed with Vanguard's decision to do away with Message Center for many customers. (Maybe Flagship-level gets to keep it?)

I added that a considerable number of people on the Bogleheads forum seem to be upset about it, and that some are talking about switching to other brokerages.

The rep hadn't heard of the Bogleheads. She asked me to spell it. :oops: I told her a little bit about the Bogleheads organization including the fact that there were over 100K members. I started to explain who Jack Bogle was, but at least she seemed to know that.

Also, the rep didn't appear to know they were going to do away with Message Center, and pointed out that I could still compose messages on the site. (This is true.) I responded that I had gotten a pop-up message about it, and that I thought the message said they were going to do away with it sometime in August (in the near future).

She said she would bring up my comments with her supervisor.
It doesn't surprise me that she hadn't heard of the Bogleheads. Bogleheads is such a small drop of water in a big ocean and I don't think they are concerned with mostly anonymous posts on an internet forum. You did the right thing by contacting them directly with your concerns. I wonder how many have switched because of the Message Center issue? A very small, insignificant number I would imagine.
Three that I've seen
I think it may be up to four now.
I believe someone reconsidered. It's back down to three now.
retiringwhen
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by retiringwhen »

galawdawg wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 4:31 pm The Morningstar monthly fund flows reports are incomplete and exclude any fund families that haven't reported fund flows by Morningstar's editorial deadline.

In July 2021, Vanguard had net new assets of about $36.4 billion, Schwab had net new assets of about $44.3 billion. In June 2021, Vanguard had net new assets of about $25.2 billion, during that same month Schwab had net new assets of about $43.4 billion.

For the first half of this year, Vanguard had net new assets of about $220.19 billion.
And Schwab for the same period.....about $242.6 billion.

As of the end of June 2021, Schwab held about $7.67 trillion in client assets. Vanguard was at $7.2 trillion on January 31, 2021, and adding their net inflows reported from February 1, 2021 through June 30, 2021, Vanguard should be at about $7.38 trillion as of the end of June 2021.

In summary, unless my math calculations are incorrect (and they were checked twice):

Schwab's net inflows for 2021 have outpaced net inflows at Vanguard.
Schwab now has more AUM than Vanguard.

Morningstar releases their reports on inflow only for those funds that generally report net assets on or before the 12th (give or take a day) of each month. It appears that Schwab generally reports their figures after that deadline. Perhaps that is why Schwab is not included in those Morningstar monthly fund inflow articles. However, anyone can look at Schwab's SEC filings and see the reported fund inflows and assets under management. It just takes a little bit of effort.
What is the source of you data on Schwab and Vanguard here? Can we reproduce your analysis for other brokerages to see if we can level the playing field?

The report I published to start this discussion only focused on Asset Manager Funds (ETFs and Open Ended Mutual Funds) operated by the entity regardless of brokerage holding the accounts. The reports mention Schwab ETFs and the number are different than your data.

Also note, that iShares is listed and BlackRock is not due to the iShares being the only significant Mutual Fund / ETF provider in the BlackRock complex.

Schwab did not show up in the top ten as their ETF/Funds are not within the ten largest (according to the report).

It is pretty clear that these numbers do not include total assets including 3rd party funds being managed. But, if you look at the US News article, Fidelity has a much larger total client assets management including 3rd party funds at over $10T, but BlackRock is missing! All this shows that the industry does not particularly provide any transparency here. Everyone seems to have different definitions and reporting parameters.

The Schwab number of $7.67T almost assuredly includes client assets invested in 3rd party funds.

So bottom line, just what is included and counted here?

For example are FDIC deposits included? I have no idea. UBS, Schwab and others have large presences there.
How are retirement plan administration funds regulated by Department of Labor factored into these funds? BlackRock, Fidelity and Vanguard all have pretty different presences and approaches and some Insurance Companies are big here too, who counts what for the various annuity and CIT arrangements?
What about institutional customers vs. retail customers? That is a whole other can of worms.

That may be why BlackRock is all over the place in the various report. I have no idea how they are rolled up in reports like the World's Top Asset Management Firms Page as compared to Fidelity. Something seems way off here.
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galawdawg
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by galawdawg »

retiringwhen wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 10:17 pm What is the source of you data on Schwab and Vanguard here? Can we reproduce your analysis for other brokerages to see if we can level the playing field?
The Schwab numbers come from Schwab's Monthly Reports and from Schwab's SEC filings, particularly form 10-Q.
The Vanguard numbers come from Vanguard and the Morningstar monthly fund flows report. I was unable to locate any 10-Q filings by The Vanguard Group, Inc.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by bondsr4me »

galawdawg wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 6:16 am
retiringwhen wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 10:17 pm What is the source of you data on Schwab and Vanguard here? Can we reproduce your analysis for other brokerages to see if we can level the playing field?
The Schwab numbers come from Schwab's Monthly Reports and from Schwab's SEC filings, particularly form 10-Q.
The Vanguard numbers come from Vanguard and the Morningstar monthly fund flows report. I was unable to locate any 10-Q filings by The Vanguard Group, Inc.
Are the Schwab numbers skewed because of the TDAmeritrade acquisition?
Without the TDA numbers, Schwab probably wouldn’t be anywhere near as big as Fidelity or Vanguard.
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jeffyscott
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by jeffyscott »

retiringwhen wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 10:17 pm That may be why BlackRock is all over the place in the various report. I have no idea how they are rolled up in reports like the World's Top Asset Management Firms Page as compared to Fidelity. Something seems way off here.
My guess would be that is what is invested in Fidelity funds and ETFs? If it were brokerage assets, then Schwab would've made the list.

Vanguard seems to be about the same there as well on lists of largest brokerages. But that could just mean that most Vanguard investments are held at Vanguard and/or that the Vanguard brokerage assets that are not in Vanguard funds happen to be about equal to Vanguard funds held at other brokerages. (my guess would be that both are small, that there are not a lot of non-Vanguard holdings at Vanguard brokerage nor are a lot of Vanguard funds held elsewhere)
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by Doc »

goingup wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 10:01 am Be aware of the protocols at the new brokerage you are moving to.

Someone posted (on another thread) that they moved their Vanguard funds to Schwab and discovered they weren't able to exchange funds (sell/buy) on the same day. That puts a hitch in TLHing.
TLH implies a taxable account which will have margin available. The margin allows same day trades of mutual funds to mutual funds (sell/buy) or even (buy/sell). Both trades settle the same day so there will be no margin interest accrued.

Mutual fund to ETF in a tax advantaged account is a different story.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by Doc »

Cheez-It Guy wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 6:06 pm
jda wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:48 pm . . .
I have contacted Vanguard to convert all of my mutual fund to ETF so I can transfer them out in kind. This request alone took 3 different representatives to complete. The first representative couldn't do it, and transferred me to the second representative who also couldn't do it. Finally the third person was able to complete the request, but my call was dropped in the process and it took 30 min just for a simple request that should/could have done online.
. . .
You should try converting your mutual fund holdings to ETFs tax-free online at another broker and see how easy it is.
When I transferred some of our assets from Vg to another broker a year or two ago I just converted the Vg mutual finds to ETFs at Vanguard on line and then just transferred the ETFs a few days later. This eliminated the problem and also any lot cost issues. No Vg issues.
A scientist looks for THE answer to a problem, an engineer looks for AN answer and lawyers ONLY have opinions. Investing is not a science.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by Whakamole »

Doc wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 9:00 am When I transferred some of our assets from Vg to another broker a year or two ago I just converted the Vg mutual finds to ETFs at Vanguard on line and then just transferred the ETFs a few days later. This eliminated the problem and also any lot cost issues. No Vg issues.
Unfortunately you can't convert mutual fund shares to ETFs online anymore; you have to call in.


In any case - my transfer is done. All I'm waiting for is for Vanguard to liquidate their partial ETF shares.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by retiringwhen »

jeffyscott wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 7:36 am
retiringwhen wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 10:17 pm That may be why BlackRock is all over the place in the various report. I have no idea how they are rolled up in reports like the World's Top Asset Management Firms Page as compared to Fidelity. Something seems way off here.
My guess would be that is what is invested in Fidelity funds and ETFs? If it were brokerage assets, then Schwab would've made the list.

Vanguard seems to be about the same there as well on lists of largest brokerages. But that could just mean that most Vanguard investments are held at Vanguard and/or that the Vanguard brokerage assets that are not in Vanguard funds happen to be about equal to Vanguard funds held at other brokerages. (my guess would be that both are small, that there are not a lot of non-Vanguard holdings at Vanguard brokerage nor are a lot of Vanguard funds held elsewhere)
The Vanguard ETF balances at non-Vanguard brokerages is likely very large! Also, Vanguard Mutual funds are very well represented in retirement plans (401K, 403b, insurance annuity products) not administered by Vanguard. My guess is that if we were able to see a break down of actual client assets in Vanguard Brokerage Services, vs. the Total Assets under Management by the various Vanguard Mutual Funds, that the brokerage could easily be less than 50% (I am including legacy mutual fund accounts in that guess).

An underlying truth many folks on BH fail to realize is Vanguard is primarily an Asset Manager and they are the biggest by most measures for retail/individual investors in that category with BlackRock being larger depending how large the scope of products are included in AUM.

Vanguard's brokerage business is almost an after thought. Their 401K business is probably bigger than their retail brokerage business, possibly much larger. In fact, from a focus perspective, it appears that Vanguard is putting more client facing effort into the 401K business.

So far, my investigation and others here has not identified a source of data that provides client assets (sum of all assets held in a firm's client accounts regardless of manager) vs. AUM (Fund Manager Assets Under Management - ETF/Mutual Fund/CIT, etc.) for Vanguard. All that is published is the AUM so this number cannot be compared to their competition who almost exclusively publish top line numbers as client assets.

Schwab breaks it out in their 10-Q, if I read the Schwab 10-Q correctly, they have only about $411B in mutual fund/ETF assets under management and another $150B in money markets, making them a 2nd tier player in the AUM business as best (the Morningstar report excluded Money Markets).

Vanguard since it is private provides no such report. Their website simply sums up all AUM with no break out Their client assets are $7.6T.

Fidelity provides a nice summary here (they don't publish 10-Qs either). Interestingly, their total Client Assets dwarfs everyone else at $11.1T!!!!!!!!
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by Doc »

Whakamole wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 9:05 am
Doc wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 9:00 am When I transferred some of our assets from Vg to another broker a year or two ago I just converted the Vg mutual finds to ETFs at Vanguard on line and then just transferred the ETFs a few days later. This eliminated the problem and also any lot cost issues. No Vg issues.
Unfortunately you can't convert mutual fund shares to ETFs online anymore; you have to call in.
Icky poo sith.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by UpperNwGuy »

Doc wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 9:00 am
Cheez-It Guy wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 6:06 pm
jda wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:48 pm . . .
I have contacted Vanguard to convert all of my mutual fund to ETF so I can transfer them out in kind. This request alone took 3 different representatives to complete. The first representative couldn't do it, and transferred me to the second representative who also couldn't do it. Finally the third person was able to complete the request, but my call was dropped in the process and it took 30 min just for a simple request that should/could have done online.
. . .
You should try converting your mutual fund holdings to ETFs tax-free online at another broker and see how easy it is.
When I transferred some of our assets from Vg to another broker a year or two ago I just converted the Vg mutual finds to ETFs at Vanguard on line and then just transferred the ETFs a few days later. This eliminated the problem and also any lot cost issues. No Vg issues.
Wait.... Are you saying that you converted Vanguard mutual funds to ETFs purely online without having to talk on the phone?
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by csm »

Does anyone know how long it takes Vanguard to transfer the final cash balance in an account after a request has been made to transfer all assets out?

I initiated my total account transfer to Schwab (via Schwab's website) on August 4th. All my index funds were moved within a couple of days, but not the small cash balance. I've already received snail mail confirmation from Schwab that the transfer was complete (on their side) with only the cash account unable to be transferred.

I initially thought that meant I had to do the last bit manually, but was blocked from doing so by Vanguard which BH's told me was probably because it was in the process of being pushed by VG. I had already sent a query via secure message to VG when I learned this (here on the forum) and after three days, VG finally responded to my secure message with a concise, not terribly helpful, response that the reason I couldn't transfer the funds was that there was a "pending transfer." No information as to when it would be complete, and it is now another few days after that response and the funds are still not transferred out.

It's been 16 days since I started the process - what in the world can take so long to complete an account transfer?
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by bondsr4me »

csm wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 9:39 am Does anyone know how long it takes Vanguard to transfer the final cash balance in an account after a request has been made to transfer all assets out?

I initiated my total account transfer to Schwab (via Schwab's website) on August 4th. All my index funds were moved within a couple of days, but not the small cash balance. I've already received snail mail confirmation from Schwab that the transfer was complete (on their side) with only the cash account unable to be transferred.

I initially thought that meant I had to do the last bit manually, but was blocked from doing so by Vanguard which BH's told me was probably because it was in the process of being pushed by VG. I had already sent a query via secure message to VG when I learned this (here on the forum) and after three days, VG finally responded to my secure message with a concise, not terribly helpful, response that the reason I couldn't transfer the funds was that there was a "pending transfer." No information as to when it would be complete, and it is now another few days after that response and the funds are still not transferred out.

It's been 16 days since I started the process - what in the world can take so long to complete an account transfer?
maybe there are some residual transactions waiting to be completed....fund dividend payments...and the like...they will eventually be transferred to Schwab...your VG account is locked until then, but you should still be able to "see" your VG account.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by Doc »

UpperNwGuy wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 9:32 am Wait.... Are you saying that you converted Vanguard mutual funds to ETFs purely online without having to talk on the phone?
Yes but apparently that online conversion has gone away.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by DividendMickey »

bondsr4me wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 9:45 am
csm wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 9:39 am Does anyone know how long it takes Vanguard to transfer the final cash balance in an account after a request has been made to transfer all assets out?

I initiated my total account transfer to Schwab (via Schwab's website) on August 4th. All my index funds were moved within a couple of days, but not the small cash balance. I've already received snail mail confirmation from Schwab that the transfer was complete (on their side) with only the cash account unable to be transferred.

I initially thought that meant I had to do the last bit manually, but was blocked from doing so by Vanguard which BH's told me was probably because it was in the process of being pushed by VG. I had already sent a query via secure message to VG when I learned this (here on the forum) and after three days, VG finally responded to my secure message with a concise, not terribly helpful, response that the reason I couldn't transfer the funds was that there was a "pending transfer." No information as to when it would be complete, and it is now another few days after that response and the funds are still not transferred out.

It's been 16 days since I started the process - what in the world can take so long to complete an account transfer?
maybe there are some residual transactions waiting to be completed....fund dividend payments...and the like...they will eventually be transferred to Schwab...your VG account is locked until then, but you should still be able to "see" your VG account.
I transferred my non-IRA brokerage assets to Fidelity this week. Unfortunately I forgot there was a large dividend payment coming up on one of the stocks in the account. Now the reinvested shares from the divvy are sitting in the VG account all by their lonesome.

I chatted with a FIDO rep yesterday and specifically asked if I was now going to have to initiate another transfer to get those shares over to FIDO. He said they will eventually be pushed to FIDO as everything in the transfer is reconciled. I will believe it when I see it, but I remain hopeful.

Also waiting on cost basis, which they do say takes about 15 days or so.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by galawdawg »

In the case of an elderly relative of mine who moved from Merrill Edge to Schwab, there were two residual sweeps of cash from Merrill Edge to Schwab. One took place eight (8) days after the bulk of the holdings transferred, the second took place twenty-eight (28) days after the bulk of the holdings transferred.

I understand from my conversations with my Schwab consultant that the sweep of residual cash in an ACATS transfer takes place weekly. You may want to contact your Schwab consultant and ask him/her to follow-up with the transfer department on the status.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by bondsr4me »

DividendMickey wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 9:53 am
bondsr4me wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 9:45 am
csm wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 9:39 am Does anyone know how long it takes Vanguard to transfer the final cash balance in an account after a request has been made to transfer all assets out?

I initiated my total account transfer to Schwab (via Schwab's website) on August 4th. All my index funds were moved within a couple of days, but not the small cash balance. I've already received snail mail confirmation from Schwab that the transfer was complete (on their side) with only the cash account unable to be transferred.

I initially thought that meant I had to do the last bit manually, but was blocked from doing so by Vanguard which BH's told me was probably because it was in the process of being pushed by VG. I had already sent a query via secure message to VG when I learned this (here on the forum) and after three days, VG finally responded to my secure message with a concise, not terribly helpful, response that the reason I couldn't transfer the funds was that there was a "pending transfer." No information as to when it would be complete, and it is now another few days after that response and the funds are still not transferred out.

It's been 16 days since I started the process - what in the world can take so long to complete an account transfer?
maybe there are some residual transactions waiting to be completed....fund dividend payments...and the like...they will eventually be transferred to Schwab...your VG account is locked until then, but you should still be able to "see" your VG account.
I transferred my non-IRA brokerage assets to Fidelity this week. Unfortunately I forgot there was a large dividend payment coming up on one of the stocks in the account. Now the reinvested shares from the divvy are sitting in the VG account all by their lonesome.

I chatted with a FIDO rep yesterday and specifically asked if I was now going to have to initiate another transfer to get those shares over to FIDO. He said they will eventually be pushed to FIDO as everything in the transfer is reconciled. I will believe it when I see it, but I remain hopeful. If you did a "full/complete" asset transfer, the dividend will eventually be transferred to FIDO from VG....just be patient.

Also waiting on cost basis, which they do say takes about 15 days or so.
"f
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by jeffyscott »

retiringwhen wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 9:05 am Fidelity provides a nice summary here (they don't publish 10-Qs either). Interestingly, their total Client Assets dwarfs everyone else at $11.1T!!!!!!!!
And the $4.2 trillion item has a footnote that says: Includes all Fidelity investment products, such as mutual funds and managed accounts.

That is similar to the figure given at the link to "the world's top asset management firms". So if there is any consistency to that list, the Vanguard figure should be the amount in Vanguard Funds, not the amount held at Vanguard.

In a purported list of largest brokerages, Vanguard supposedly has $7.2 trillion.
https://money.usnews.com/investing/port ... -this-year
But, perhaps that is sloppy data and is not limited to only assets actually held at Vanguard.

Anyway, they are all huge and we know that there are a whole lot of assets in both Vanguard funds and held at Vanguard and the same goes for Fidelity. While in Schwab's case, they have few assets held in their own funds, but a whole lot of assets held at their brokerage. And then in BlackRock's case, the assets are in their funds, but not (or mostly not :?: ) held directly with BlackRock.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by csm »

bondsr4me wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 9:45 am
csm wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 9:39 am Does anyone know how long it takes Vanguard to transfer the final cash balance in an account after a request has been made to transfer all assets out?

I initiated my total account transfer to Schwab (via Schwab's website) on August 4th. All my index funds were moved within a couple of days, but not the small cash balance. I've already received snail mail confirmation from Schwab that the transfer was complete (on their side) with only the cash account unable to be transferred.

I initially thought that meant I had to do the last bit manually, but was blocked from doing so by Vanguard which BH's told me was probably because it was in the process of being pushed by VG. I had already sent a query via secure message to VG when I learned this (here on the forum) and after three days, VG finally responded to my secure message with a concise, not terribly helpful, response that the reason I couldn't transfer the funds was that there was a "pending transfer." No information as to when it would be complete, and it is now another few days after that response and the funds are still not transferred out.

It's been 16 days since I started the process - what in the world can take so long to complete an account transfer?
maybe there are some residual transactions waiting to be completed....fund dividend payments...and the like...they will eventually be transferred to Schwab...your VG account is locked until then, but you should still be able to "see" your VG account.
After the in-kind transfer of my index funds, there had already been another $29 cash transfer made two days later that appeared to be the final dividends/earnings on the transferred accounts. That was why I thought everything was complete except for the remaining cash balance.

But I will continue to wait. It would be nice if Vanguard could provide a more comprehensive reply rather than just saying "a transfer is pending." It would not take a lot to state that they are awaiting final residual earnings or that it has to wait until the month has closed, or whatever the reason might be that it hasn't yet been done, with an ETA of what I can expect.

I do wonder if the secure message center is being disbanded because they do not choose to give appropriate time or staff to responding in a useful way. I far prefer secure messaging to either phone or online chat when I have queries because then I retain a record of it. However, the responses via secure message from VG have always left much to be desired. I did not use it often - perhaps 5 times in the last 5 years - but I recall being frustrated with nearly every response because they failed to provide complete answers (and after waiting 3-5 days for a reply, it was frustrating when it wasn't a full response). Until recently, secure messaging was far more convenient than calling since I lived abroad, but I still dislike having to call.
DividendMickey wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 9:53 am Also waiting on cost basis, which they do say takes about 15 days or so.
Edited re: cost basis - Schwab had my cost basis updated in about 2 days.
galawdawg wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 9:59 am In the case of an elderly relative of mine who moved from Merrill Edge to Schwab, there were two residual sweeps of cash from Merrill Edge to Schwab. One took place eight (8) days after the bulk of the holdings transferred, the second took place twenty-eight (28) days after the bulk of the holdings transferred.

I understand from my conversations with my Schwab consultant that the sweep of residual cash in an ACATS transfer takes place weekly. You may want to contact your Schwab consultant and ask him/her to follow-up with the transfer department on the status.
Thank you. Will continue to be patient.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by Cheez-It Guy »

Doc wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 9:00 am
Cheez-It Guy wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 6:06 pm
jda wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:48 pm . . .
I have contacted Vanguard to convert all of my mutual fund to ETF so I can transfer them out in kind. This request alone took 3 different representatives to complete. The first representative couldn't do it, and transferred me to the second representative who also couldn't do it. Finally the third person was able to complete the request, but my call was dropped in the process and it took 30 min just for a simple request that should/could have done online.
. . .
You should try converting your mutual fund holdings to ETFs tax-free online at another broker and see how easy it is.
When I transferred some of our assets from Vg to another broker a year or two ago I just converted the Vg mutual finds to ETFs at Vanguard on line and then just transferred the ETFs a few days later. This eliminated the problem and also any lot cost issues. No Vg issues.
I was just pointing out that such conversion is not possible at any other brokers in the first place, so complaints about how difficult it is at Vanguard ring pretty hollow to me. They patented the structure. They offer the capability. They control the process. I do wish it was available online as well, but I can see how this might lead to a lot of problems associated with those whose financial acumen lags that of the typical Boglehead.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by DividendMickey »

bondsr4me wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 9:45 am
csm wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 9:39 am Does anyone know how long it takes Vanguard to transfer the final cash balance in an account after a request has been made to transfer all assets out?

I initiated my total account transfer to Schwab (via Schwab's website) on August 4th. All my index funds were moved within a couple of days, but not the small cash balance. I've already received snail mail confirmation from Schwab that the transfer was complete (on their side) with only the cash account unable to be transferred.

I initially thought that meant I had to do the last bit manually, but was blocked from doing so by Vanguard which BH's told me was probably because it was in the process of being pushed by VG. I had already sent a query via secure message to VG when I learned this (here on the forum) and after three days, VG finally responded to my secure message with a concise, not terribly helpful, response that the reason I couldn't transfer the funds was that there was a "pending transfer." No information as to when it would be complete, and it is now another few days after that response and the funds are still not transferred out.

It's been 16 days since I started the process - what in the world can take so long to complete an account transfer?
maybe there are some residual transactions waiting to be completed....fund dividend payments...and the like...they will eventually be transferred to Schwab...your VG account is locked until then, but you should still be able to "see" your VG account.
So FYI- I am not sure if it's been discussed prior in this now-epic thread, but if you have individual stocks with VG and they carry a partial share balance (e.g., 100.250 shs of PG), VG will sell the part-shares (here, the .250 of PG) when it transfers out the position to the new company. So you end up with a "new" cash balance if that occurs.

This has been an interesting process to say the least, but I wanted to put this part out there in case it was not already raised.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by retiringwhen »

DividendMickey wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 10:51 am So FYI- I am not sure if it's been discussed prior in this now-epic thread, but if you have individual stocks with VG and they carry a partial share balance (e.g., 100.250 shs of PG), VG will sell the part-shares (here, the .250 of PG) when it transfers out the position to the new company. So you end up with a "new" cash balance if that occurs.
I am not an expert (someone who has a brokerage bonus hobby will know better :wink:), but I think this sequence of events is a feature(?)/limitation of ACATS that only whole shares can be transferred and this would normally happen when transitioning between any two retail brokerages. I believe it is also true for ETFs, not just common stocks.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by starboi »

Cheez-It Guy wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 10:19 am
Doc wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 9:00 am
Cheez-It Guy wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 6:06 pm
jda wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:48 pm . . .
I have contacted Vanguard to convert all of my mutual fund to ETF so I can transfer them out in kind. This request alone took 3 different representatives to complete. The first representative couldn't do it, and transferred me to the second representative who also couldn't do it. Finally the third person was able to complete the request, but my call was dropped in the process and it took 30 min just for a simple request that should/could have done online.
. . .
You should try converting your mutual fund holdings to ETFs tax-free online at another broker and see how easy it is.
When I transferred some of our assets from Vg to another broker a year or two ago I just converted the Vg mutual finds to ETFs at Vanguard on line and then just transferred the ETFs a few days later. This eliminated the problem and also any lot cost issues. No Vg issues.
I was just pointing out that such conversion is not possible at any other brokers in the first place, so complaints about how difficult it is at Vanguard ring pretty hollow to me. They patented the structure. They offer the capability. They control the process. I do wish it was available online as well, but I can see how this might lead to a lot of problems associated with those whose financial acumen lags that of the typical Boglehead.
VG owning the patent on the conversion doesn't excuse them passing the caller to three different people and then dropping the call.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by DividendMickey »

retiringwhen wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 10:55 am
DividendMickey wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 10:51 am So FYI- I am not sure if it's been discussed prior in this now-epic thread, but if you have individual stocks with VG and they carry a partial share balance (e.g., 100.250 shs of PG), VG will sell the part-shares (here, the .250 of PG) when it transfers out the position to the new company. So you end up with a "new" cash balance if that occurs.
I am not an expert (someone who has a brokerage bonus hobby will know better :wink:), but I think this sequence of events is a feature(?)/limitation of ACATS that only whole shares can be transferred and this would normally happen when transitioning between any two retail brokerages. I believe it is also true for ETFs, not just common stocks.
Thanks for this, very helpful. Now I'm going to get 1099'ed for these part-sales. Lovely... :x
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by Cheez-It Guy »

starboi wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 11:00 am
Cheez-It Guy wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 10:19 am
Doc wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 9:00 am
Cheez-It Guy wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 6:06 pm
jda wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:48 pm . . .
I have contacted Vanguard to convert all of my mutual fund to ETF so I can transfer them out in kind. This request alone took 3 different representatives to complete. The first representative couldn't do it, and transferred me to the second representative who also couldn't do it. Finally the third person was able to complete the request, but my call was dropped in the process and it took 30 min just for a simple request that should/could have done online.
. . .
You should try converting your mutual fund holdings to ETFs tax-free online at another broker and see how easy it is.
When I transferred some of our assets from Vg to another broker a year or two ago I just converted the Vg mutual finds to ETFs at Vanguard on line and then just transferred the ETFs a few days later. This eliminated the problem and also any lot cost issues. No Vg issues.
I was just pointing out that such conversion is not possible at any other brokers in the first place, so complaints about how difficult it is at Vanguard ring pretty hollow to me. They patented the structure. They offer the capability. They control the process. I do wish it was available online as well, but I can see how this might lead to a lot of problems associated with those whose financial acumen lags that of the typical Boglehead.
VG owning the patent on the conversion doesn't excuse them passing the caller to three different people and then dropping the call.
If this is an example of your most frustrating customer interaction with a company, consider yourself quite lucky.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by bondsr4me »

starboi wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 11:00 am
Cheez-It Guy wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 10:19 am
Doc wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 9:00 am
Cheez-It Guy wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 6:06 pm
jda wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:48 pm . . .
I have contacted Vanguard to convert all of my mutual fund to ETF so I can transfer them out in kind. This request alone took 3 different representatives to complete. The first representative couldn't do it, and transferred me to the second representative who also couldn't do it. Finally the third person was able to complete the request, but my call was dropped in the process and it took 30 min just for a simple request that should/could have done online.
. . .
You should try converting your mutual fund holdings to ETFs tax-free online at another broker and see how easy it is.
When I transferred some of our assets from Vg to another broker a year or two ago I just converted the Vg mutual finds to ETFs at Vanguard on line and then just transferred the ETFs a few days later. This eliminated the problem and also any lot cost issues. No Vg issues.
I was just pointing out that such conversion is not possible at any other brokers in the first place, so complaints about how difficult it is at Vanguard ring pretty hollow to me. They patented the structure. They offer the capability. They control the process. I do wish it was available online as well, but I can see how this might lead to a lot of problems associated with those whose financial acumen lags that of the typical Boglehead.
VG owning the patent on the conversion doesn't excuse them passing the caller to three different people and then dropping the call.
+100....owning a patent is not a good reason/excuse for sloppy customer service.
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starboi
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by starboi »

Cheez-It Guy wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 11:14 am
starboi wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 11:00 am
Cheez-It Guy wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 10:19 am
Doc wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 9:00 am
Cheez-It Guy wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 6:06 pm

You should try converting your mutual fund holdings to ETFs tax-free online at another broker and see how easy it is.
When I transferred some of our assets from Vg to another broker a year or two ago I just converted the Vg mutual finds to ETFs at Vanguard on line and then just transferred the ETFs a few days later. This eliminated the problem and also any lot cost issues. No Vg issues.
I was just pointing out that such conversion is not possible at any other brokers in the first place, so complaints about how difficult it is at Vanguard ring pretty hollow to me. They patented the structure. They offer the capability. They control the process. I do wish it was available online as well, but I can see how this might lead to a lot of problems associated with those whose financial acumen lags that of the typical Boglehead.
VG owning the patent on the conversion doesn't excuse them passing the caller to three different people and then dropping the call.
If this is an example of your most frustrating customer interaction with a company, consider yourself quite lucky.
I'm lucky if Vanguard is the worst company I have to deal with? Funny logic.
bondsr4me
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by bondsr4me »

starboi wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 11:27 am
Cheez-It Guy wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 11:14 am
starboi wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 11:00 am
Cheez-It Guy wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 10:19 am
Doc wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 9:00 am
When I transferred some of our assets from Vg to another broker a year or two ago I just converted the Vg mutual finds to ETFs at Vanguard on line and then just transferred the ETFs a few days later. This eliminated the problem and also any lot cost issues. No Vg issues.
I was just pointing out that such conversion is not possible at any other brokers in the first place, so complaints about how difficult it is at Vanguard ring pretty hollow to me. They patented the structure. They offer the capability. They control the process. I do wish it was available online as well, but I can see how this might lead to a lot of problems associated with those whose financial acumen lags that of the typical Boglehead.
VG owning the patent on the conversion doesn't excuse them passing the caller to three different people and then dropping the call.
If this is an example of your most frustrating customer interaction with a company, consider yourself quite lucky.
I'm lucky if Vanguard is the worst company I have to deal with? Funny logic.
+1....good logic.
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galawdawg
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by galawdawg »

DividendMickey wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 11:09 am
retiringwhen wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 10:55 am
DividendMickey wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 10:51 am So FYI- I am not sure if it's been discussed prior in this now-epic thread, but if you have individual stocks with VG and they carry a partial share balance (e.g., 100.250 shs of PG), VG will sell the part-shares (here, the .250 of PG) when it transfers out the position to the new company. So you end up with a "new" cash balance if that occurs.
I am not an expert (someone who has a brokerage bonus hobby will know better :wink:), but I think this sequence of events is a feature(?)/limitation of ACATS that only whole shares can be transferred and this would normally happen when transitioning between any two retail brokerages. I believe it is also true for ETFs, not just common stocks.
Thanks for this, very helpful. Now I'm going to get 1099'ed for these part-sales. Lovely... :x
It sounds like that may be a little-known advantage to holding mutual funds. Partial shares of mutual funds transfer over in-kind without the necessity of liquidating them.

Although unless you hold a significant number of different funds, the gains on any partial shares held in a taxable account are not likely to be significant as it would never be more than the gain on less than one share per fund held. So if you have .75 shares of VTI and .75 shares of BND that were each bought on the most recent dividend date, you'd have $3.72 in short-term gains on the .75 shares of VTI and a short-term loss of $0.12 on .75 shares of BND, for a net short-term capital gain of just $3.60.
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Cheez-It Guy
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by Cheez-It Guy »

^^What are you guys even talking about?

Owning a patent allows you to exclude competition for a period of time. That's the system we have in this country to protect innovation. You don't have to like it. The patent comment was only there in the first place because I knew that would be the first excuse given about why you couldn't make the conversion elsewhere.

Yes, you are lucky if Vanguard is the worst company with whom you are forced to have a customer service interaction. I feel like many don't understand what truly terrible customer service is. Enjoy your white glove service wherever you may find it.
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starboi
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by starboi »

I wouldn't even need mutual funds if VG allowed for fractional ETF purchases. Which they don't. Oops.
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galawdawg
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by galawdawg »

Cheez-It Guy wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 1:35 pm I feel like many don't understand what truly terrible customer service is.
And perhaps others don't understand what truly great customer service is! :sharebeer
Da5id
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by Da5id »

Cheez-It Guy wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 1:35 pm Yes, you are lucky if Vanguard is the worst company with whom you are forced to have a customer service interaction. I feel like many don't understand what truly terrible customer service is. Enjoy your white glove service wherever you may find it.
I've clearly dealt with far worse, and some of this does rather have the "grass is always greener" feel.

Still Vanguard decreasing the ways customers can communicate, rather than increasing those channels, still seems like a step in the wrong direction. They (so far) aren't taking away my messages. But I'll be rather grumpy if they do. And this thread has bumped me into starting the process of converting my mutual funds to ETFs. Not that I'm leaving Vanguard imminently or anything, but that will make it easier if/when the time comes and will drop my expense ratios as a bonus.
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