[Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

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galawdawg
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by galawdawg »

Take it from this former Flagship customer (nearly thirty years)....the grass IS greener!

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Da5id
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by Da5id »

galawdawg wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 2:06 pm Take it from this former Flagship customer (nearly thirty years)....the grass IS greener!

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Wait, you've switched from Vanguard to all 3 of the others personally?
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Cheez-It Guy
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by Cheez-It Guy »

You can always keep buying VTSAX until you qualify for VITSX. Only $5 million in one holding, and you're there!
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by jda »

Cheez-It Guy wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 10:19 am
Doc wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 9:00 am
Cheez-It Guy wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 6:06 pm
jda wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:48 pm . . .
I have contacted Vanguard to convert all of my mutual fund to ETF so I can transfer them out in kind. This request alone took 3 different representatives to complete. The first representative couldn't do it, and transferred me to the second representative who also couldn't do it. Finally the third person was able to complete the request, but my call was dropped in the process and it took 30 min just for a simple request that should/could have done online.
. . .
You should try converting your mutual fund holdings to ETFs tax-free online at another broker and see how easy it is.
When I transferred some of our assets from Vg to another broker a year or two ago I just converted the Vg mutual finds to ETFs at Vanguard on line and then just transferred the ETFs a few days later. This eliminated the problem and also any lot cost issues. No Vg issues.
I was just pointing out that such conversion is not possible at any other brokers in the first place, so complaints about how difficult it is at Vanguard ring pretty hollow to me. They patented the structure. They offer the capability. They control the process. I do wish it was available online as well, but I can see how this might lead to a lot of problems associated with those whose financial acumen lags that of the typical Boglehead.
Most of us wouldn't buy mutual fund at the other brokerage to begin with because ETF offers lower expense ratio. Like Doc has posted, it was possible to do the mutual fund to ETF conversion online a few years ago (I have done it before). Why waste everyone's time and eliminate this option? BTW it has been 3 days and they are still not converted yet, I will probably need to call them back again.

As for customer service, I wouldn't say they are the worst, but they are definitely not as competent as other brokerages/401k administrators I have dealt with in the past. I have been using Vanguard for the past 10+ years sole because of inertia, but like I have mentioned in my previous post, it's time to move on.

Don't get me wrong, Vanguard offers wonderful products, but there are other way to enjoy their products without having to deal with their mediocre service and crappy web/app interface.
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runninginvestor
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by runninginvestor »

The forum received a shout-out from our grumblings.

https://www.inquirer.com/business/vangu ... 10821.html

"The reaction has been mixed: Some fiercely loyal Bogleheads, the longtime Vanguard investors who adhere to founder John Bogle’s low-cost investment philosophy, took to their website -- www.bogleheads.org/forum/ -- to both support and decry Vanguard’s secure-messaging change."
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by retiringwhen »

That is a brutal article even by the Inquirer's standards. Allan Roth's examples (I read his column earlier this year) is a really good list of problems that Vanguard has to fix. They are pretty fundamental.
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goingup
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by goingup »

From the article:
"Vanguard added to the furor in July when it said it is phasing out secure messaging on its website by the end of August for clients under $1 million in assets. Those with $1 million or more, known as Flagship investors, will still have secure message access on the company’s website."

This confirmed what was deduced in this thread, though I have never seen it explicitly noted. Flagship customers will keep secure messaging.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by UpperNwGuy »

runninginvestor wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 7:59 am The forum received a shout-out from our grumblings.

https://www.inquirer.com/business/vangu ... 10821.html

"The reaction has been mixed: Some fiercely loyal Bogleheads, the longtime Vanguard investors who adhere to founder John Bogle’s low-cost investment philosophy, took to their website -- www.bogleheads.org/forum/ -- to both support and decry Vanguard’s secure-messaging change."
Comparing Vanguard to Amazon and Southwest Airlines is a prediction of rising prices and declining benefits.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by LadyGeek »

The reporter, Erin Arvelund, is no stranger to the Bogleheads. She attended several local Philadelphia chapter meetings a few years ago and is very thorough in her investigations.

She quotes a comment from another forum. Here's the thread: Vanguard Customer Service? - Early Retirement & Financial Independence Community

You can't make this stuff up. I didn't mention what happened during voice authentication when I last called Vanguard (this post).

You get identified by your voice, so you have to repeat a phrase. The first one "At Vanguard, my name is my password" (from what I remember), was expected. The second one "Never bite the hand that feeds you" caused me to roll over laughing. Really.
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runninginvestor
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by runninginvestor »

retiringwhen wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 8:09 am
That is a brutal article even by the Inquirer's standards. Allan Roth's examples (I read his column earlier this year) is a really good list of problems that Vanguard has to fix. They are pretty fundamental.
Not pleasant one bit. Right in VGs backyard so hopefully some people there read it with their morning beverage this morning.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by LadyGeek »

We now have a focused discussion: Why I'm leaving Vanguard
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Bluce
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by Bluce »

Interesting Inquirer article -- thanks.

In addition to my previous posts on this thread, let me say this about expenses -- which seems to be the main reason people cling to VG:

Without any of VG's customer service problems, you can find an equivalent (or close enough) for any VG product at Schwab (been there since 1997).

Schwab's own index or ETFs typically have ERs around .03-.06% or so. The differences in ERs between the firms isn't going to change your life in the long run either way (or probably the short run either).

The slightly different holdings of two comparable index funds will probably make a bigger difference although even that, after a few years, will be a wash.

My time has a value, and holding the phone for some unknown amount of time to (possibly) save a couple of bucks is a loss for me. I have plenty of money, but not that much time left.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by galawdawg »

And Vanguard's response when asked by the Philly Inquirer about the service complaints...
Asked about these complaints, spokesperson Emily Farrell said Vanguard continues to improve processes and introduce new online resources. “While we are pleased with our progress thus far, this is only the beginning,” she said. “Vanguard will continue to evolve as we strive to meet the changing needs of our clients.”
Pleased???? Talk about being out of touch.
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Cheez-It Guy
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by Cheez-It Guy »

Come on, man. You're a former lawyer. This is just textbook corporate messaging, and they all do it no matter how hollow. You were expecting an official quote about how crappy they are? What's with the incredulity?
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by Whakamole »

After reading the Inquirer article, especially the section about the problems with even basic operations, and indications of IT problems (the missing checks and trust errors that Allen Roth talks about) - I seriously hope that the cost-cutting that led to these issues is not impacting the funds.
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galawdawg
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by galawdawg »

Cheez-It Guy wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 9:16 am Come on, man. You're a former lawyer. This is just textbook corporate messaging, and they all do it no matter how hollow. You were expecting an official quote about how crappy they are? What's with the incredulity?
Former lawyer? Did I get disbarred when I wasn't looking??? :oops: :mrgreen:

There is something to be said about honesty and transparency and a sincere apology, when appropriate. If Vanguard is engaging in "textbook corporate messaging" that "they all do", that further demonstrates that Vanguard is NOT different from or better than the others, even though they pretend to be. Rather than acknowledging there are concerns, the statement smacks of corporate arrogance. "We are pleased with our progress thus far...". No concern about whether the customer is pleased, just whether Vanguard is pleased.

As far as them all doing it? Here are two quotes from Schwab, the first from when there were complaints about extended hold times at the end of last year:
We are aware there have been instances over the past few months in which we have not met our usual high standards for client service. We are actively working to resolve issues that may have led to an unsatisfactory service experience or longer than usual hold times.
And in 2000, when there were complaints of computer issues and long telephone hold times, Schwab said this:
Schwab prides itself on delivering great service, and we are afraid that we may be falling short of your expectations. If you are one of our clients who has experienced inconvenience, we extend our sincere apology and thank you for your ongoing patience.
More importantly, Schwab promptly addressed the underlying issues and got them fixed quickly.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by jeffyscott »

They appear to say that those who have not sent a lot of messages in the past are the ones it is being taken away from.

The company plans “to introduce new ways to more efficiently and effectively communicate with Vanguard digitally,” said spokesperson Charles Kurtz. Some clients, like those with accessibility needs and who often write secure messages, as well as Flagship clients, “will retain access,” he said, until new ways to communicate are introduced.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by Cheez-It Guy »

galawdawg wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 9:57 am Former lawyer? Did I get disbarred when I wasn't looking???
My apologies. I thought you were retired.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by TedSwippet »

jeffyscott wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 10:08 am
They appear to say that those who have not sent a lot of messages in the past are the ones it is being taken away from.

The company plans “to introduce new ways to more efficiently and effectively communicate with Vanguard digitally,” said spokesperson Charles Kurtz. Some clients, like those with accessibility needs and who often write secure messages, as well as Flagship clients, “will retain access,” he said, until new ways to communicate are introduced.
Maybe. However, the logical conjunctive they used isn't entirely reassuring. I'd prefer to have seen "... like those with accessibility needs and or who often write secure messages ...".
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galawdawg
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by galawdawg »

Cheez-It Guy wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 10:26 am
galawdawg wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 9:57 am Former lawyer? Did I get disbarred when I wasn't looking???
My apologies. I thought you were retired.
I retired from my job, not my profession! I am still a member of the State Bar of Georgia in good standing and do handle non-criminal legal matters that interest me from time to time, generally pro-bono.1 In fact, I am thinking right now of a defamation and libel action that I may want to bring...... :wink:

:sharebeer


1I don't do any criminal defense work but am still occasionally called upon to advise other prosecutors on complex criminal cases and by local and state law enforcement to teach and/or consult on legal matters relevant to their work.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by LadyGeek »

TedSwippet wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 10:27 am
jeffyscott wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 10:08 am
They appear to say that those who have not sent a lot of messages in the past are the ones it is being taken away from.

The company plans “to introduce new ways to more efficiently and effectively communicate with Vanguard digitally,” said spokesperson Charles Kurtz. Some clients, like those with accessibility needs and who often write secure messages, as well as Flagship clients, “will retain access,” he said, until new ways to communicate are introduced.
Maybe. However, the logical conjunctive they used isn't entirely reassuring. I'd prefer to have seen "... like those with accessibility needs and or who often write secure messages ...".
Those with a technical background will see the logic construct. I could cut him some slack here. This is more concerning:
The company plans “to introduce new ways to more efficiently and effectively communicate with Vanguard digitally,” said spokesperson Charles Kurtz. Some clients, like those with accessibility needs and who often write secure messages, as well as Flagship clients, “will retain access,” he said, until new ways to communicate are introduced.
The intent is to move away from secure messages. Regardless of the platform, you still need secure access.

My internet service provider is using social media to send private Direct Messages for technical support. I was having a problem and created an anonymous twitter account. Once I established contact, they sent me a link to their secure website and proceeded with a private online chat. The problem was resolved in real time.

If Vanguard is thinking of social media platforms, that's simply not going to happen. Fidelity is on reddit (r/fidelityinvestments), but they certainly don't provide detailed personal information.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by Cheez-It Guy »

galawdawg wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 10:37 am
Cheez-It Guy wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 10:26 am
galawdawg wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 9:57 am Former lawyer? Did I get disbarred when I wasn't looking???
My apologies. I thought you were retired.
I retired from my job, not my profession! I am still a member of the State Bar of Georgia in good standing and do handle non-criminal legal matters that interest me from time to time, generally pro-bono.1 In fact, I am thinking right now of a defamation and libel action that I may want to bring...... :wink:

:sharebeer


1I don't do any criminal defense work but am still occasionally called upon to advise other prosecutors on complex criminal cases and by local and state law enforcement to teach and/or consult on legal matters relevant to their work.
Oh, say it ain't so! I hope the laws of Georgia are not enforceable here.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by nisiprius »

Cheez-It Guy wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 10:01 am As someone pointed else already pointed out, Amazon hides their phone number as well, so hopefully no mere commoners upset about having to work a little for a phone number are ordering anything from them. A company known for caring nothing about their customers.
I can't agree. In my opinion, Amazon is strongest at exactly those aspects of "customer comfort" that Vanguard is poor at. Two examples from within the last month:

a) I bought some books from Amazon to be shipped to a friend. Amazon sent me an email saying they had been delivered... but without the customer image of the package on the porch. My friend said she hadn't got them. On the "how was your delivery" screen I clicked "Not so good." I got to a screen with a list of problems (wrong item sent, etc.) One of the them was "never received." I clicked on that and it said "We can send the items again, at no charge. Would you like us to do that?" I clicked "yes." Amazon reported delivery and my friend said she'd gotten them.

b) I ordered some Bob's Red Mill Ground Flaxseed Meal. I received whole flaxseeds. I went through a similar online series. This time it offered a choice: they could re-send the item, at no charge, or they could give me a "no-return refund" in the form of an Amazon gift card balance in my account. Not wanting to deal with the possibility of a repeated error, I opted for the refund.

In both cases, Amazon screwed up, but handled it so perfectly that it doesn't "feel like" a screw-up at all. And the issue was handled so easily and smoothly without human interaction, that I didn't even have a chance to get irritated at the five-click drilldown needed to locate a phone number.

And of course, almost from the beginning, Amazon has been excellent at progress reporting. It's so standard now people don't remember how unusual it was at the beginning. How many emails do I usually get? We've received your order, we've shipped your order and here's the ETA and tracking number, your order has been delivered. And the ETA is accurate, and they are really good at informing you about delays.

In my experience, not only Vanguard, but also Fidelity and TIAA have been consistently poor at resolving issues when an actual issue does arise. The front-line people never seem to really know what is going on, nor to be able to give accurate estimates of how long it will take to resolve them, nor to give any clear description of what the problem is. It's as if they have no real communications with the people who actually have the power to handle exceptions. They always (not just Vanguard) butter you up and apologize like crazy, say it "should" be resolved in "a week, but if it isn't absolutely please do call me again."
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Cheez-It Guy
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by Cheez-It Guy »

^Excellent points, but I wasn't seriously suggesting that the companies were similar or that Amazon was anti-customer. I was suggesting that discouraging direct phone calls in a business with a large client base is not that uncommon. The overarching reaction to effectively the same policy on phone numbers seems unbalanced. I had to call TurboTax yesterday. It was challenging to (1) find a phone number, and (2) wade through the phone tree to speak with an actual human, but I persevered!

Is it realistic for any of us to expect that frontline telephone customer service reps should be capable of addressing any of many different queries clients might call in with? These are entry-level positions, and usually not someone's career goal. Turnover and comparatively low salary are at play. I find it helpful to mentally prepare to speak to multiple associates in any customer service interaction regardless of medium. It is kind of annoying when chat systems pass you to another person and it doesn't support review of what's already been typed so you have to do it all over again with a 2nd or 3rd person.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by galawdawg »

The issues you mention about front-line phone representatives are very valid. But that is why a well-implemented secure messaging component to a firm's website can be very beneficial to consumer and company alike.

Have some drop-down selections to identify the area of concern for the customer and assist with routing of the message, have a few suggested links that appear near the free-form text field that a customer can click on for self-serve options or FAQ common to that area of concern (and that opens a new window so they aren't booted out of the secure message composition screen) and if the customer asks a question or raises an issue, surely there are keyword filters (like you find in email services) that could further direct the message to the proper department.

Then respond promptly and accurately.

Much like the Amazon experience described by nisiprius. Guide the customer through some self-serve options and use that process to also narrow down the problem/concern so if the self-serve options aren't suitable, the message goes to the right folks who are competent and trained in that particular area.

It can't be all that difficult.
Last edited by galawdawg on Sat Aug 21, 2021 11:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by peppers »

[edited to fix formatting - moderator prudent]
LadyGeek wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 10:39 am My internet service provider is using social media to send private Direct Messages for technical support. I was having a problem and created an anonymous twitter account. Once I established contact, they sent me a link to their secure website and proceeded with a private online chat. The problem was resolved in real time.

If Vanguard is thinking of social media platforms, that's simply not going to happen. Fidelity is on reddit (r/fidelityinvestments), but they certainly don't provide detailed personal information.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by Gort »

runninginvestor wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 7:59 am The forum received a shout-out from our grumblings.

https://www.inquirer.com/business/vangu ... 10821.html

"The reaction has been mixed: Some fiercely loyal Bogleheads, the longtime Vanguard investors who adhere to founder John Bogle’s low-cost investment philosophy, took to their website -- www.bogleheads.org/forum/ -- to both support and decry Vanguard’s secure-messaging change."
Interesting results from the latest JD power survey linked in the mentioned article...

"Vanguard (736) ranks highest in self-directed investor satisfaction among investors seeking guidance.
T. Rowe Price (705) ranks second and Charles Schwab (702) ranks third.

Vanguard (736) ranks highest in self-directed investor satisfaction among do-it-yourself investors. Charles
Schwab (727) ranks second and T. Rowe Price (721) ranks third."

There appears to be a disconnect between some of the disgruntled Bogleheads here and the JD Power survey. Anxiously waiting for the responses saying the JD Power survey is flawed.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by Da5id »

Gort wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 11:46 am
runninginvestor wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 7:59 am The forum received a shout-out from our grumblings.

https://www.inquirer.com/business/vangu ... 10821.html

"The reaction has been mixed: Some fiercely loyal Bogleheads, the longtime Vanguard investors who adhere to founder John Bogle’s low-cost investment philosophy, took to their website -- www.bogleheads.org/forum/ -- to both support and decry Vanguard’s secure-messaging change."
Interesting results from the latest JD power survey linked in the mentioned article...

"Vanguard (736) ranks highest in self-directed investor satisfaction among investors seeking guidance.
T. Rowe Price (705) ranks second and Charles Schwab (702) ranks third.

Vanguard (736) ranks highest in self-directed investor satisfaction among do-it-yourself investors. Charles
Schwab (727) ranks second and T. Rowe Price (721) ranks third."

There appears to be a disconnect between some of the disgruntled Bogleheads here and the JD Power survey. Anxiously waiting for the responses saying the JD Power survey is flawed.
The JD Power survey is probably flawed. I don't have much faith in JD Power surveys in general, and don't personally use them to make purchasing decisions. Do you actually find them a valuable source of information personally?

That said most investors (or most consumers) don't have lots of issues. So we hear from people who encounter issues, but the large silent majority are of course doing fine. Some of the upset in this thread is because people don't like things or services that they have being taken away. Which I totally get.
Last edited by Da5id on Sat Aug 21, 2021 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by ThereAreNoGurus »

Gort wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 11:46 am
runninginvestor wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 7:59 am The forum received a shout-out from our grumblings.

https://www.inquirer.com/business/vangu ... 10821.html

"The reaction has been mixed: Some fiercely loyal Bogleheads, the longtime Vanguard investors who adhere to founder John Bogle’s low-cost investment philosophy, took to their website -- www.bogleheads.org/forum/ -- to both support and decry Vanguard’s secure-messaging change."
Interesting results from the latest JD power survey linked in the mentioned article...

"Vanguard (736) ranks highest in self-directed investor satisfaction among investors seeking guidance.
T. Rowe Price (705) ranks second and Charles Schwab (702) ranks third.

Vanguard (736) ranks highest in self-directed investor satisfaction among do-it-yourself investors. Charles
Schwab (727) ranks second and T. Rowe Price (721) ranks third."

There appears to be a disconnect between some of the disgruntled Bogleheads here and the JD Power survey. Anxiously waiting for the responses saying the JD Power survey is flawed.
I noticed those results today.

I've been extremely satisfied with VG's service, yet if I were asked whether I'd recommend VG today to somebody the answer would be probably not.

If I had not been reading the various informative threads here, I'm sure I would not be in watchful waiting mode, seriously considering whether to flee (at least partially).

However without these threads I would not be aware of some serious concerns raised regarding VG's IT competence. That concerns me greatly. (Not in terms of whiz-bang GUI's, but data security.)

And what I read in this article does not relieve my concerns in the least:
Infosys is replacing Vanguard’s aging mainframe-computer-based record-keeping system with a remote, cloud-based platform.
https://www.inquirer.com/news/vanguard- ... 00729.html
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by galawdawg »

Gort wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 11:46 am
runninginvestor wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 7:59 am The forum received a shout-out from our grumblings.

https://www.inquirer.com/business/vangu ... 10821.html

"The reaction has been mixed: Some fiercely loyal Bogleheads, the longtime Vanguard investors who adhere to founder John Bogle’s low-cost investment philosophy, took to their website -- www.bogleheads.org/forum/ -- to both support and decry Vanguard’s secure-messaging change."
Interesting results from the latest JD power survey linked in the mentioned article...

"Vanguard (736) ranks highest in self-directed investor satisfaction among investors seeking guidance.
T. Rowe Price (705) ranks second and Charles Schwab (702) ranks third.

Vanguard (736) ranks highest in self-directed investor satisfaction among do-it-yourself investors. Charles
Schwab (727) ranks second and T. Rowe Price (721) ranks third."

There appears to be a disconnect between some of the disgruntled Bogleheads here and the JD Power survey. Anxiously waiting for the responses saying the JD Power survey is flawed.
Wait no longer! :happy

Among full-service investors (based on responses from 4,392 investors who make some or all of their investment decisions with a financial advisor, which would presumably include Vanguard PAS clients)? Vanguard ranked 11th. Both Fidelity and Schwab ranked higher than Vanguard. But Edward Jones was ranked number 1.

In 2020, Schwab ranked highest in self-directed investor satisfaction among do-it-yourself investors, ahead of Vanguard. But I didn't see that mentioned in any of the "Vanguard issues" threads last year. :?

In reality, these "surveys" are of a very limited number of respondents and J.D. Power will not release their methodology or statistical analysis of any of these "surveys". What is the margin of error? If it is +/-3% (as is the reported margin of error in their pulse surveys), then the results within the top three you noted mean nothing. And there were at least nine (9) companies in the 2021 self-directed investor satisfaction study with only 4,895 investors surveyed. Was the representative sample size for each company included in the survey the same, in other words 543.89 or so investors at each firm? If not, the results could be further skewed. Do we know anything about the survey instrument's reliability and validity? No. That is impossible to know because J.D. Power doesn't disclose that information, or any other information about methodology, to the public. Statistics are easy to manipulate if they aren't verifiable (such as via SEC filings).

J.D. Power is in the business of marketing their surveys to the companies involved. In fact, a company can only highlight their performance in a J.D. Power survey if they are subscribing clients in J.D. Power syndicated studies. It is nothing more than a marketing tool that J.D. Power sells to companies for advertising purposes. So between the lack of any transparency regarding methodology and their financial self-interest in marketing their "product", I have for many years questioned the validity or reliability of J.D. Power surveys whether it relates to brokerages, cars or anything else.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by Doc »

Way back when Vanguard took the brokerage in house from Pershing I was told that I would get an experience representative given my status. The first several interactions were unsatisfying. So I started asking the phone rep their broker ID number as well as their name. Most had to look the number up. None had more than two years experience. Finally one responded immediately with their ID, a laugh and a question. "You are looking me up on BrokerCheck aren't you." (He had three years experience.)

After that my verbal service saw substantial improvement. Too bad we can't ask that question anymore.

https://brokercheck.finra.org/
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barefootjan
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by barefootjan »

From the above linked article, Some Vanguard loyalists decry lost checks and service lapses as the Pa. giant hits $8 trillion in assets
...Vanguard now boasts 30 million customers globally. Its longtime customers now need more services, say industry observers. Its older, wealthier clients, mainly baby boomers, are drawing down, cashing out assets, or leaving money to their heirs. That requires more hand-holding, complicated rollovers, and transactions and phone calls to Vanguard.
So if you're a longtime customer at Vanguard; amass a lot of wealth; and get older, you will become...what? A liability?

If these "industry observers" are correct, maybe everyone just starting out at Vanguard should simultaneously be planning to leave the company before they become a burden. :oops:
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by foosball »

runninginvestor wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 7:59 am The forum received a shout-out from our grumblings.

https://www.inquirer.com/business/vangu ... 10821.html

"The reaction has been mixed: Some fiercely loyal Bogleheads, the longtime Vanguard investors who adhere to founder John Bogle’s low-cost investment philosophy, took to their website -- www.bogleheads.org/forum/ -- to both support and decry Vanguard’s secure-messaging change."
A related article in the same publication: Decision day for 1,300 Vanguard workers as their jobs head to India-based Infosys https://www.inquirer.com/news/vanguard- ... 00729.html
Wednesday marks a break in that history. Staffers (Vanguard calls them “crew’) say today is the deadline for 1,300 of them to move to Infosys, an India-based outsourcing contractor; or leave to search for new jobs.
The workers facing transfer include technology, client-administration and operations staff in Vanguard’s Institutional and Information Technology divisions at Vanguard
According to Vanguard workers, the company also outsources information technology services. As many as 600 contractors for India-based Tata Consultancy Services (TCS) work on Vanguard projects at buildings along Morehall Road and other sites near Vanguard buildings; other TCS staff in India also work on Vanguard IT.
As you can see from the article (edit: from Jul 29, 2020), current Vanguard leadership is aggressively pursuing their strategy to outsource operations and IT.
Last edited by foosball on Sat Aug 21, 2021 3:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by nalor511 »

barefootjan wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 1:17 pm From the above linked article, Some Vanguard loyalists decry lost checks and service lapses as the Pa. giant hits $8 trillion in assets
...Vanguard now boasts 30 million customers globally. Its longtime customers now need more services, say industry observers. Its older, wealthier clients, mainly baby boomers, are drawing down, cashing out assets, or leaving money to their heirs. That requires more hand-holding, complicated rollovers, and transactions and phone calls to Vanguard.
So if you're a longtime customer at Vanguard; amass a lot of wealth; and get older, you will become...what? A liability?

If these "industry observers" are correct, maybe everyone just starting out at Vanguard should simultaneously be planning to leave the company before they become a burden. :oops:
The thing is, I'm sorry to be a broken record, Vanguard was not always like this. When I was doing some rollovers between 2006 and 2009, each time Vanguard was perfect. They came on the phone quickly, they walked me through exactly what I should do, and even in at least one case started a 3-way call with the sending firm to ensure some specific thing went correctly. Originally you were able to do things online, such as MF->ETF conversions, full POA designations, near-instant roth conversions, set DRIP to a different destination fund, etc.

Slowly but surely, all these things have been taken away, and messaging is/was just the latest example. It's one thing to not have very good X (service, software, whatever), but it's a completely separate thing to have great X and then slowly but surely take it away and make it worse. Vanguard was not crappy, it was excellent, and it's getting objectively worse.

The other firms were more expensive, and they're getting less expensive, and they provide me the things that Vanguard has slowly but surely taken away. By all means those who want to stay should stay, but my only conclusion is that they *actually want brokerage customers to leave* because they do not make money from them.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by bondsr4me »

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again:
Jack B. must be rolling in disgust…
I can just hear him saying to current VG mgt: “Just what are you people doing to the great company I built” :oops:
I feel bad for all the good “crew” members and wonder what they would say anonymously.
Have a great weekend.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by boglesmind »

May I request the moderators to lock this thread?

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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by Gort »

Da5id wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 11:55 am
Gort wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 11:46 am
runninginvestor wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 7:59 am The forum received a shout-out from our grumblings.

https://www.inquirer.com/business/vangu ... 10821.html

"The reaction has been mixed: Some fiercely loyal Bogleheads, the longtime Vanguard investors who adhere to founder John Bogle’s low-cost investment philosophy, took to their website -- www.bogleheads.org/forum/ -- to both support and decry Vanguard’s secure-messaging change."
Interesting results from the latest JD power survey linked in the mentioned article...

"Vanguard (736) ranks highest in self-directed investor satisfaction among investors seeking guidance.
T. Rowe Price (705) ranks second and Charles Schwab (702) ranks third.

Vanguard (736) ranks highest in self-directed investor satisfaction among do-it-yourself investors. Charles
Schwab (727) ranks second and T. Rowe Price (721) ranks third."

There appears to be a disconnect between some of the disgruntled Bogleheads here and the JD Power survey. Anxiously waiting for the responses saying the JD Power survey is flawed.
The JD Power survey is probably flawed. I don't have much faith in JD Power surveys in general, and don't personally use them to make purchasing decisions. Do you actually find them a valuable source of information personally?

That said most investors (or most consumers) don't have lots of issues. So we hear from people who encounter issues, but the large silent majority are of course doing fine. Some of the upset in this thread is because people don't like things or services that they have being taken away. Which I totally get.
Personally? No. But many novice investors looking for advice as to where to invest their money would be influenced by the survey and head to Vanguard. They would make no mistake by doing so and that's probably better than taking advice from 1000+ anonymous postings in an internet forum that I doubt they even know exists.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by Vulcan »

boglesmind wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 2:24 pm May I request the moderators to lock this thread?

Boglesmind
Before they do, did anyone in this 20 page thread mention where outside Vanguard they are transacting on their VTWAX? :oops:
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by barefootjan »

boglesmind wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 2:24 pm May I request the moderators to lock this thread?

Boglesmind
Hi Bogles, not sure if you’re aware, but if you’re getting notifications, you can unsubscribe from the conversation right on this page. Or, don’t click on the link in your email and that will stop further notifications from coming.

If this thread is closed, I hope we can start one that is focused more on strategies and solutions that don’t necessarily require moving to another company. What matters at the end of the day, I think, is that we can get our needs met, regardless of where we invest. To that end, I’ve been working on finding ways to deal with some of the concerns that have been raised about Vanguard. For all I know, these same types of things will happen elsewhere, if not now then in the not too distant future! Hoping to share what I learn and see how it compares with what others have experienced.
Meanwhile, I’m grateful to everyone who has shared their experiences in this thread. It’s been eye opening, that’s for sure!
Last edited by barefootjan on Sat Aug 21, 2021 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
nalor511
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by nalor511 »

Vulcan wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 3:07 pm
boglesmind wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 2:24 pm May I request the moderators to lock this thread?

Boglesmind
Before they do, did anyone in this 20 page thread mention where outside Vanguard they are transacting on their VTWAX? :oops:
I don't hold VTWAX because I want the FTC, instead hold VTSAX/VTI + VTIAX/VXUS, and hold them anywhere.
nalor511
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by nalor511 »

barefootjan wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 3:13 pm...
If this thread is closed, I hope we can start one that is focused more on strategies and solutions that don’t necessarily require moving to another company.
...
You can always do that, you don't have to wait for a previous thread to be (potentially) closed
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by mervinj7 »

Vulcan wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 3:07 pm
boglesmind wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 2:24 pm May I request the moderators to lock this thread?

Boglesmind
Before they do, did anyone in this 20 page thread mention where outside Vanguard they are transacting on their VTWAX? :oops:
The ETF version is VT and widely available commission-free. But personally, I hold VTI/VXUS separately.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by Vulcan »

mervinj7 wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 3:15 pm
Vulcan wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 3:07 pm
boglesmind wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 2:24 pm May I request the moderators to lock this thread?

Boglesmind
Before they do, did anyone in this 20 page thread mention where outside Vanguard they are transacting on their VTWAX? :oops:
The ETF version is VT and widely available commission-free. But personally, I hold VTI/VXUS separately.
ETFs... Been there, done that, not doing it again. :oops:

As things are, VTWAX held at Vanguard has no competition for me.
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by Tubes »

foosball wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 1:46 pm
runninginvestor wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 7:59 am The forum received a shout-out from our grumblings.

https://www.inquirer.com/business/vangu ... 10821.html

"The reaction has been mixed: Some fiercely loyal Bogleheads, the longtime Vanguard investors who adhere to founder John Bogle’s low-cost investment philosophy, took to their website -- www.bogleheads.org/forum/ -- to both support and decry Vanguard’s secure-messaging change."
A related article in the same publication: Decision day for 1,300 Vanguard workers as their jobs head to India-based Infosys https://www.inquirer.com/news/vanguard- ... 00729.html
Wednesday marks a break in that history. Staffers (Vanguard calls them “crew’) say today is the deadline for 1,300 of them to move to Infosys, an India-based outsourcing contractor; or leave to search for new jobs.
The workers facing transfer include technology, client-administration and operations staff in Vanguard’s Institutional and Information Technology divisions at Vanguard
According to Vanguard workers, the company also outsources information technology services. As many as 600 contractors for India-based Tata Consultancy Services (TCS) work on Vanguard projects at buildings along Morehall Road and other sites near Vanguard buildings; other TCS staff in India also work on Vanguard IT.
As you can see from the article, current Vanguard leadership is aggressively pursuing their strategy to outsource operations and IT.
This news is profoundly disappointing to me.

As someone who went through this kind of thing, I cannot tell you how stressful it is to work 11 1/2 hours out of sync with your colleagues. These were fine people. I have nothing but respect for the folks I worked with. But this kind of relationship (splitting teams 1/2 way around the world) shreds the workers. We were waking early, and my colleagues were working late. It killed family life on both sides. Everyone got shredded.

Very disappointing.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by Cheez-It Guy »

^Well, that news is from over a year ago. May not change anything for you, but FYI.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by foosball »

Cheez-It Guy wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 3:38 pm ^Well, that news is from over a year ago. May not change anything for you, but FYI.
Sorry, I missed that originally. I updated my post with the article date.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by Tubes »

Year old news in this case doesn't matter. It just means the plan to move people to the outsource company and split function is in action.

I don't want to get too much in the weeds on this, so I'll just graze over to the prairie. IT is complex. You find that in these kinds of actions, the first attempt is to have North America do "function X," while "function Z" is done in Asia. "function Y" can be in either place, but typically has to interface with Z and X. Interfaces between the functions are promised to be minimal, so everyone can work in their own sandbox as a tight cohesive team located at one site, or at least one continent.

X<-->Y<-->Z

My experience over 20 years, and many iterations is that straight away the Y people are stressed since they have to work with both teams, despite "minimal" interfaces. Problems in these interfaces are attempted to be handled via email and trouble tickets. It seems to work at first. But eventually, meetings are called, and the timezone difference makes them brutal. Odd problems occur where after weeks of analysis, someone determines that X is somehow impacting Z through some unforeseen connection, such as server load. This wasn't supposed to happen! So now X, Y, and Z all have to be in the same meeting. And so on.

Then there is the labor issue, and here's where it really gets screwy. Function Z must implement something big, so they need help from the people working Function X who are unloaded. Management can't hire because the Big Boss says there's a hiring freeze. So, function X and Z now work closely, crossing continents. And so on.

Ultimately, this drove me to retirement. My body was rejecting the forced off-shift work. I had enough.

So, yeah, it disappoints me to hear Vanguard crew members are potentially in this situation. (Maybe they aren't crew anymore since they got moved to another company.)
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by Gort »

boglesmind wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 2:24 pm May I request the moderators to lock this thread?

Boglesmind
Doubtful. It would give the three people leaving Vanguard nothing to complain about.
barefootjan
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by barefootjan »

Gort wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 11:47 am
boglesmind wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 2:24 pm May I request the moderators to lock this thread?

Boglesmind
Doubtful. It would give the three people leaving Vanguard nothing to complain about.
But who's counting, right?! :wink:
nalor511 wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 3:15 pm
barefootjan wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 3:13 pm...
If this thread is closed, I hope we can start one that is focused more on strategies and solutions that don’t necessarily require moving to another company.
...
You can always do that, you don't have to wait for a previous thread to be (potentially) closed
Thanks, but this conversation is getting a bit unwieldy. 8-)
In any event, I'm still doing research and taking notes on stuff that goes beyond customer service - things like account security and managing access to funds.
It's probably a good idea to re-evaluate our plans every so often, anyway. :D
cheers :sharebeer

EDIT to add:
Oh geez. I just started the 22nd page. :oops: sorry
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by nisiprius »

boglesmind wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 2:24 pm May I request the moderators to lock this thread?

Boglesmind
You don't do that by posting in the thread itself, you do it by going to the first post in the thread, and clicking on the "report this post" button, the one with the exclamation point in it. It will pop up a window in which you can indicate the reasons, choosing from a list and adding your own comments, as to why you think it should be locked. It's helpful to cite the relevant rules from the forum policies.
Last edited by nisiprius on Sun Aug 22, 2021 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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