[Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

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nisiprius
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Re: Vanguards current policy statement on Secure Messages

Post by nisiprius »

gubernaculum wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:50 am For folks wondering what Vanguard's official policy on Secure Messages is and find it too difficult to go through the monster thread on this issue from late July, here is an exchange that I had with Vanguard via Facebook messenger:

Q: Has Vanguard made any formal announcement about discontinuing the secure message feature on your web site for US customers?

A: Yes, affected clients were informed approximately 30 days before the change occurred.

Q: Which clients will be able to rely on the secure message facility in the future? Will Flagship clients be able to rely on it or does Vanguard plan on eliminating it for them eventually as well?

A: Hi XXXXX. Clients who are members of Flagship Services, Personal Advisor Services, owners of 529 College Savings Plans, or other clients that have accessibility challenges (such as the hearing-impaired, for example) are currently planned to have access to the Secure Message center in the future.
Except it's nonsense. Whoever wrote that isn't being accurate because

a) I was informed that the change would occur,

b) I am not a Flagship member or a 529 plan owner, and I do not have accessibility challenges,

c) As I write this, the Compose button is visible and activated, and if I click on it I get a panel that says "Send a message to your Voyager Select Service team" with an edit box and an activated Send button.

Yes, yes, I know--"what, he's complaining that they have not disabled secure messaging for him?"

No, I'm complaining that Vanguard reps are making statements about the service that are inconsistent 1) with each other, and 2) with reality.

They are apparently unaware of--or unwilling to acknowledge--some kind of chaotic situation in which people are given inaccurate information, and it appears to be the fickle finger of fate--not any consistent policy--governing who loses and who retain message services. And the people who are making announcements of that the policy is don't seem to be aware of what's going on.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by Gort »

Number of members leaving Vanguard because of this issue holding steady at 4 by my last count.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by 000 »

Gort wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:59 pm Number of members leaving Vanguard because of this issue holding steady at 4 by my last count.
Probably many more that didn't post it or aren't members of this forum leaving.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by nisiprius »

000 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:42 pm
Gort wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:59 pm Number of members leaving Vanguard because of this issue holding steady at 4 by my last count.
Probably many more that didn't post it or aren't members of this forum leaving.
Probably many more who are not leaving or close to leaving, but if asked if they recommend Vanguard say something damning-with-faint-praise like "Personally, I have no complaints."
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by CRC_Volunteer »

nisiprius wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:15 pm
000 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:42 pm
Gort wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:59 pm Number of members leaving Vanguard because of this issue holding steady at 4 by my last count.
Probably many more that didn't post it or aren't members of this forum leaving.
Probably many more who are not leaving or close to leaving, but if asked if they recommend Vanguard say something damning-with-faint-praise like "Personally, I have no complaints."
In Southern parlance, we would say “Vanguard, Bless Their Heart.”
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by outbackcountry »

000 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:42 pm
Gort wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:59 pm Number of members leaving Vanguard because of this issue holding steady at 4 by my last count.
Probably many more that didn't post it or aren't members of this forum leaving.
For the past couple of years I was debating whether I should remain with Vanguard or not but never actually did anything. But I think its time to move on now. I do not own any Vanguard MFs and all of my investments are in their ETFs, so there is really no reason for me to stick with Vanguard. I also have an old 401k account with them from my previous ER. My current 401k is with Fidelity (which is my main brokerage as well). I just submitted an online rollover-out request at Vanguard for the old 401k. I did the same (rollover-in) at Fidelity. Once I receive the check, I should be able to deposit to Fidelity 401k. Fidelity gave a specific instruction on how the check should be drawn (just the plan name , FBO my name). I submitted this via the message center to Vanguard (not sure if anyone looks at it now). Do I need to call them to get the checks written correctly?

Also, I had to switch to the old site to submit an online rollover-out request (couldn't figure this out in the new site).
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by Eagle33 »

Is it really leaving Vanguard if you keep investing in Vanguard funds? You are just not using Vanguard's brokerage service.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by nalor511 »

Eagle33 wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:39 pm Is it really leaving Vanguard if you keep investing in Vanguard funds? You are just not using Vanguard's brokerage service.
Which, I believe, is exactly what they prefer
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by 000 »

outbackcountry wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:48 pm Do I need to call them to get the checks written correctly?
I don't know. I would probably call, especially if you've already started the process. Try to find a number related to 401ks instead of the general line.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by Stinky »

nalor511 wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:37 pm
Eagle33 wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:39 pm Is it really leaving Vanguard if you keep investing in Vanguard funds? You are just not using Vanguard's brokerage service.
Which, I believe, is exactly what they prefer
I've been only loosely following the conversation, so let me pose a (maybe stupid/simple) question:

--- Let's say that I have $xxx in a Vanguard ETF. Does Vanguard get the same revenue if I hold the ETF at (say) Schwab, rather than holding it at Vanguard?

If Vanguard gets the same revenue either way, then I can understand why Vanguard might want to reduce the amount spent on supporting its brokerage operation.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by CRC_Volunteer »

Stinky wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 4:33 pm If Vanguard gets the same revenue either way, then I can understand why Vanguard might want to reduce the amount spent on supporting its brokerage operation.
Then why try to move people from the MF to the Brokerage platform?
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by PersonalFinanceJam »

000 wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 4:24 pm
outbackcountry wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:48 pm Do I need to call them to get the checks written correctly?
I don't know. I would probably call, especially if you've already started the process. Try to find a number related to 401ks instead of the general line.
I had 2 previous 401k accounts with vanguard which I did the online roll over out to fidelity with earlier this year. I’m going on memory, but the online form for Vanguard should have had fields for you to fill out to indicate the plan information at Fidelity. This is what they use to make out the check. If you didn’t get this part of the form then it’s possible you didn’t answer one of the earlier questions correctly. In that case you may want to call.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by outbackcountry »

PersonalFinanceJam wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 4:51 pm
000 wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 4:24 pm
outbackcountry wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:48 pm Do I need to call them to get the checks written correctly?
I don't know. I would probably call, especially if you've already started the process. Try to find a number related to 401ks instead of the general line.
I had 2 previous 401k accounts with vanguard which I did the online roll over out to fidelity with earlier this year. I’m going on memory, but the online form for Vanguard should have had fields for you to fill out to indicate the plan information at Fidelity. This is what they use to make out the check. If you didn’t get this part of the form then it’s possible you didn’t answer one of the earlier questions correctly. In that case you may want to call.
Thanks. Yes, I did get that screen and filled out the plan information, account number, etc. Just wasn't sure how the check in itself will be drawn. I did give them a call after and requested to call back, rather than wait. Will clarify with them if they call back.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by Eagle33 »

CRC_Volunteer wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 4:42 pm
Stinky wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 4:33 pm If Vanguard gets the same revenue either way, then I can understand why Vanguard might want to reduce the amount spent on supporting its brokerage operation.
Then why try to move people from the MF to the Brokerage platform?
Can't buy VG ETFs with a MF account. Need people on brokerage platform so can easilychange to ETF and move account, thus lowering VG costs.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by nalor511 »

Eagle33 wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:25 pm
CRC_Volunteer wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 4:42 pm
Stinky wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 4:33 pm If Vanguard gets the same revenue either way, then I can understand why Vanguard might want to reduce the amount spent on supporting its brokerage operation.
Then why try to move people from the MF to the Brokerage platform?
Can't buy VG ETFs with a MF account. Need people on brokerage platform so can easilychange to ETF and move account, thus lowering VG costs.
This
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by Whakamole »

Stinky wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 4:33 pm
nalor511 wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:37 pm
Eagle33 wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:39 pm Is it really leaving Vanguard if you keep investing in Vanguard funds? You are just not using Vanguard's brokerage service.
Which, I believe, is exactly what they prefer
I've been only loosely following the conversation, so let me pose a (maybe stupid/simple) question:

--- Let's say that I have $xxx in a Vanguard ETF. Does Vanguard get the same revenue if I hold the ETF at (say) Schwab, rather than holding it at Vanguard?

If Vanguard gets the same revenue either way, then I can understand why Vanguard might want to reduce the amount spent on supporting its brokerage operation.
This is why I've heavily divested from Vanguard in tax-protected accounts. I still own VSS since there isn't a great alternative to it. Fidelity is my broker now and provides superior customer service, the least I can do is divert a few hundred thousand dollars into their funds. As an added bonus, they are as good or better.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by Da5id »

CRC_Volunteer wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 4:42 pm
Stinky wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 4:33 pm If Vanguard gets the same revenue either way, then I can understand why Vanguard might want to reduce the amount spent on supporting its brokerage operation.
Then why try to move people from the MF to the Brokerage platform?
I assume they'd rather not support and maintain two different systems.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by outbackcountry »

outbackcountry wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:04 pm
PersonalFinanceJam wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 4:51 pm
000 wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 4:24 pm
outbackcountry wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:48 pm Do I need to call them to get the checks written correctly?
I don't know. I would probably call, especially if you've already started the process. Try to find a number related to 401ks instead of the general line.
I had 2 previous 401k accounts with vanguard which I did the online roll over out to fidelity with earlier this year. I’m going on memory, but the online form for Vanguard should have had fields for you to fill out to indicate the plan information at Fidelity. This is what they use to make out the check. If you didn’t get this part of the form then it’s possible you didn’t answer one of the earlier questions correctly. In that case you may want to call.
Thanks. Yes, I did get that screen and filled out the plan information, account number, etc. Just wasn't sure how the check in itself will be drawn. I did give them a call after and requested to call back, rather than wait. Will clarify with them if they call back.
My 401k transfer from Vanguard to Fidelity came through today. It took about a week. Got the check and mobile deposited on Monday; see the funds in the account today. For the taxable account, I will look around for bonuses and migrate.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by beyou »

Interesting but Etrade also removed secure messaging and chat. I used to use these, but I saw on reddit that apparently Etrade put everyone on the phones to handle the call volume and moved them away from responding to secure messages and chats, “temporarily”.

I found I could upload a document so I wrote a “letter” in Word and uploaded to etrade. Seems similar to secure messaging, but we’ll see how long it takes to respond. Of course I first looked for a way to get self-service, but my request was a rare need, so had to contact them.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by drzzzzz »

Still have secure messaging but it took them 13 days to answer a simple yes or no question. Along with the response, we got the following popup from Vanguard

VANGUARD PERSONAL ADVISOR SERVICES®
We're inviting you back
Your financial goals are important. A fiduciary advisor can work with you to form a personalized strategy and stress-test your portfolio against 10,000 market scenarios. Please reconsider our low-cost advice service to help you plan for what's next.

Lucky us
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by foosball »

I had to call Vanguard to request a mutual fund share class conversion to ETF. This procedure is not available online or via secure message. Here was my experience.

Day 1: On hold for 50 minutes after voice verification. Every few minutes, the hold music would stop, the line would "ring" implying that I was going to be connected to a human, and a recorded message would chide me that 96% of things people call about can be accomplished online and I should log in. [Thanks so much, I would love to do just that.] Then, it would transition back to hold music and I would continue waiting. After 50 minutes of waiting, I had to hang up to attend a meeting.

Day 2. After voice verification, I was forced into a menu asking me to schedule a call back. There was no option to continue waiting. I selected a time for the following day.

Day 3. Hours after the selected time for a call back, not hearing from Vanguard as promised, I called them again. I was on hold for 1 hour and 8 minutes, with every few minutes hearing the simulated ring with the recorded "answer" of 96% of things can be accomplished online. Finally, a real person answered. Despite having completed the voice verification early in the call, I had to supply several pieces of personal information to proceed. Fine, okay. When I explained what I wanted, they said that they needed to transfer me to a specialist. Five more minutes of holding. The order desk specialist had a very casual demeanor but said they accomplished the task.

I found this experience extremely frustrating [perhaps as designed.]

ETA: This was the final sign that it's high time for me to move on from Vanguard.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by beyou »

drzzzzz wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 8:05 pm Still have secure messaging but it took them 13 days to answer a simple yes or no question. Along with the response, we got the following popup from Vanguard

VANGUARD PERSONAL ADVISOR SERVICES®
We're inviting you back
Your financial goals are important. A fiduciary advisor can work with you to form a personalized strategy and stress-test your portfolio against 10,000 market scenarios. Please reconsider our low-cost advice service to help you plan for what's next.

Lucky us
Well I sent them a question by secure messaging yesterday afternoon and today they responded.
I had a tax question and they got back to me with a very thorough and relevant answer.
Response times can very significantly. A year ago I had to wait long enough on the phone that I resorted to secure message.
And secure message took many days to respond, but that was a year ago. Good days and bad days.
Fortunately I am not day trading and don't leave my taxes for the last minute. I never have urgent questions.
But even those that are not urgent are usually responded to in a reasonable period (within a day or two).
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by LadyGeek »

foosball wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:41 pm ETA: This was the final sign that it's high time for me to move on from Vanguard.
Financial incentives for moving to another brokerage can be found in this thread: The Final, Definitive Thread on Brokerage Transfer Bonuses

I moved my Vanguard funds to Fidelity and will receive a transfer bonus.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by nisiprius »

As I write this, my "message center" still has a "compose" button, and when there is data in "subject," "category," "account," and "message" the "send" button becomes available. This makes me think I still have the secure messaging facility.

Does anybody have an idea what the final outcome was? Did the facility remain available for most clients? Was it actually removed for any clients?
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by evancox10 »

nisiprius wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 8:18 am As I write this, my "message center" still has a "compose" button, and when there is data in "subject," "category," "account," and "message" the "send" button becomes available. This makes me think I still have the secure messaging facility.

Does anybody have an idea what the final outcome was? Did the facility remain available for most clients? Was it actually removed for any clients?
Where do you find Message Center? I don't see it anywhere but will check and report back if I know how to find it (assuming it is available, of course).

Edit: found message center but I don't see a compose button.

https://ibb.co/S37ZqKb
Image
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by FrugalInvestor »

evancox10 wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 8:29 am
nisiprius wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 8:18 am As I write this, my "message center" still has a "compose" button, and when there is data in "subject," "category," "account," and "message" the "send" button becomes available. This makes me think I still have the secure messaging facility.

Does anybody have an idea what the final outcome was? Did the facility remain available for most clients? Was it actually removed for any clients?
Where do you find Message Center? I don't see it anywhere but will check and report back if I know how to find it (assuming it is available, of course).

Edit: found message center but I don't see a compose button.

https://ibb.co/S37ZqKb
Image
I have a prominent black button labeled "COMPOSE" just below the "Message Center" heading and above the "Inbox" text. I am a Flagship client.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by exodusNH »

nisiprius wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 8:18 am As I write this, my "message center" still has a "compose" button, and when there is data in "subject," "category," "account," and "message" the "send" button becomes available. This makes me think I still have the secure messaging facility.

Does anybody have an idea what the final outcome was? Did the facility remain available for most clients? Was it actually removed for any clients?
They removed it. I have no compose button.

However, it's hidden with a combination of JavaScript and CSS. I suspect that because even if you don't have the privilege of emailing them for general questions, you still might be need to send in an electronic document. (Or, at least this was true with the old site.)

If you twiddle with the styles, you can get the compose button to appear. I would be surprised if they check on the backend if you can actually send a message. Whether you'd get a response...
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by peppers »

We recently moved from the legacy mutual fund platform to the brokerage platform. In the overview page there is a small white envelope icon that when clicked takes me to the message center. I composed a question about Roth conversions and the message was sent. A few minutes later, I receive an email from Vanguard that my message was received and will respond as soon as possible. Reps are available to respond to emails 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. Eastern time during weekdays. We will see how long this takes.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by Lastrun »

I do not have a compose feature in the message box. I can only upload documents or read messages.

I complained about the change when I was notified and Vanguard wrote me back and said they would be initiating a live chat feature, which they have, and I have successfully used.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by jeffyscott »

nisiprius wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 8:18 am As I write this, my "message center" still has a "compose" button, and when there is data in "subject," "category," "account," and "message" the "send" button becomes available. This makes me think I still have the secure messaging facility.

Does anybody have an idea what the final outcome was? Did the facility remain available for most clients? Was it actually removed for any clients?
We had one account (MF only) that lost the compose button, I assume permanently, but the "upload documents" link remained as a way to send messages. As noted here:
viewtopic.php?p=6198661#p6198661

Got very fast responses to our final two messages to Vanguard, even though there was no compose button. These were about: "are they adding new fees" and "we are leaving for Schwab".
viewtopic.php?p=6821049#p6821049

So now we no longer care what they do :!:

Or, perhaps, I should have the attitude that several have expressed to those of us who still had mutual fund accounts, which goes something like: you deserve to be charged more fees, since you are costing me 12 cents extra in my annual fund ERs.

I think Vanguard should now eliminate all but the cheapest and least convenient option for contacting them, whatever that may be. I have no need to ever contact them again, so why should I subsidize those of you that do, via my Vanguard mutual fund ERs? :twisted: :mrgreen:
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by asset_chaos »

nisiprius wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 8:18 am As I write this, my "message center" still has a "compose" button, and when there is data in "subject," "category," "account," and "message" the "send" button becomes available. This makes me think I still have the secure messaging facility.

Does anybody have an idea what the final outcome was? Did the facility remain available for most clients? Was it actually removed for any clients?
Same. I now get a new style landing page when I login, but in message center I still have a compose button. And I hadn't noticed this before, but with the new style site at the bottom of the landing page below the Flagship contact phone number there is a "Send a secure message" button that also takes me to the message center.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by beyou »

I still "have" secure messaging ( I told them if they remove access I would close my account and they actually responded).

That said, the response to recent messages were about 7-12 days until wait time before getting the first response.
And of course issues are never resolved on the first response.
Clearly even for those who still have it, only useful for non-urgent issues, those that can afford to wait for weeks.
I have been using it to report defects to the website that are not account specific to me.
We all know those won't get fixed any faster by calling and waiting for a phone rep.
But if any problem with your account, best to call and wait for the dreaded call back or just hold on speaker phone while multitasking.
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by stan1 »

beyou wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:47 am I have been using it to report defects to the website that are not account specific to me.
Thank you for your service. Do any of them get fixed, or do you get any replies back other than "thanks, we'll pass to IT"
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

Post by beyou »

stan1 wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:09 am
beyou wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:47 am I have been using it to report defects to the website that are not account specific to me.
Thank you for your service. Do any of them get fixed, or do you get any replies back other than "thanks, we'll pass to IT"
There was one recently (on another thread) that maybe they were already working on, because by the time they “passed to IT”, it was fixed same day (just before their reply).

Most times there is little discussion, just pass to IT.

Once I had a great deal of back and forth discussion explaining the impact of the error and how something should work, with one diligent rep. At the end of weeks of back and forth debate, of course it was “sent to IT”. Never heard back since.

Honestly, if I didn’t use some of the funds that are not available elsewhere (there are a few), I would just move my account. I have met Vanguard IT staff multiple times. I worked for other fund managers in IT, and we often spoke at conferences, and I have provided common vendor references, to Vanguard and Fidelity staff. I was always underwhelmed by Vanguard IT staff, but Fidelity seemed more capable. Vanguard people were bureaucrats, Fidelity more hands on practical people involved. They just don’t seem to have the right kind of people as decision makers at Vanguard, and their implementation is slow and faulty.
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beyou
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Re: [Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

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stan1 wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:09 am
beyou wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:47 am I have been using it to report defects to the website that are not account specific to me.
Thank you for your service. Do any of them get fixed, or do you get any replies back other than "thanks, we'll pass to IT"
Just got another response today (from 1.5 weeks ago question regarding an error in Portfolio Watch).

"I understand your disappointment with having to experience this prolonged
Portfolio Watch issue. With that, I really am sorry for the inconvenience.

Please note that this is a known issue and our technicians are diligently
working on a fix. Even though we don't have an estimated resolution date,
Vanguard is aware of your situation. We will reach out to provide you an
update once the issue has been resolved."
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