[Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

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nalor511
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by nalor511 »

anon_investor wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:33 pm
AZAttorney11 wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:04 pm What a disaster. I'm so glad we moved from Vanguard as our broker when we did. Sadly, I'm sure Vanguard feels the same.
Where did you move your money to? As it appears Flagship status gives you no benefit, I am tempted to hunt for a brokerage bonus to move some Vanguard money out to test them out. I am looking at moving $100k to Merrill Edge/Bank of America to get the multiplier on their credit card rewards. However, I still have pleanty of funds to try to hunt for other bonuses.
Testing out Fidelity ~3yr and Schwab ~1yr, my advice is that as long as you convert Admiral to ETF before you leave, you will receive more benefits at either than at Vanguard

Find the biggest bonus offered anywhere, Schwab will match it. I prefer Fidelity because their non-bonus policies are more user friendly, but either one is fine. Schwab worked harder to earn my business.
AZAttorney11
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by AZAttorney11 »

anon_investor wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:33 pm
AZAttorney11 wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:04 pm What a disaster. I'm so glad we moved from Vanguard as our broker when we did. Sadly, I'm sure Vanguard feels the same.
Where did you move your money to? As it appears Flagship status gives you no benefit, I am tempted to hunt for a brokerage bonus to move some Vanguard money out to test them out. I am looking at moving $100k to Merrill Edge/Bank of America to get the multiplier on their credit card rewards. However, I still have pleanty of funds to try to hunt for other bonuses.
We moved to Schwab. Couldn't be happier. Is Schwab perfect? Nope. But they are substantially better than Vanguard in almost every conceivable way.
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Re: VG Removing Message Center

Post by bertilak »

Broken Man 1999 wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:50 pm ... maybe it was the address that allowed the aggregation back then.
Another possibility: There are two (at least?) ways account access can be granted:
1) Look only
2) With ability to initiate transactions

Perhaps only the second one allows aggregation for Flagship status. That makes sense to me because it affects how much is under your control.
May neither drought nor rain nor blizzard disturb the joy juice in your gizzard. -- Squire Omar Barker (aka S.O.B.), the Cowboy Poet
AZAttorney11
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by AZAttorney11 »

Nate79 wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:42 pm As someone who moved to Schwab from Vanguard a few years ago I can tell you the grass IS greener on the other side. But please continue to enjoy being experimented on by your broker who, as a mutual structure only has your best interests at heart.
This!
02nz
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by 02nz »

lazynovice wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:23 am Didn’t you say earlier that the Zero funds were bad because they could not be moved? Can we say Vanguard seems to have a lot of funds that also lock you in to using their services because they can’t be moved elsewhere? It sounds like Vanguard has more than 4? I think we should talk about this more in these threads and warn people not to hold them in taxable accounts like we do the Zero funds. Tax deferred is fine but taxable- no way.
Most if not all Vanguard stock index funds can either be transferred as-is to another brokerage (in some cases you cannot buy more at the other brokerage, but transferring and holding is ok); or you can convert them to ETFs and transfer that way. Did it myself, pretty easy. You are drawing a false equivalence with Fidelity's uniquely non-portable Zero funds, which cannot be transferred to, or held at, at ANY other brokerage. I don't know of ANY other mutual fund with that kind of restriction, certainly not from the major mutual fund families.

(Not a Vanguard fanboy here, in fact I left after they screwed up a bunch of stuff. But leaving was easy.)
Broken Man 1999
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Re: VG Removing Message Center

Post by Broken Man 1999 »

bertilak wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:55 pm
Broken Man 1999 wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:50 pm ... maybe it was the address that allowed the aggregation back then.
Another possibility: There are two (at least?) ways account access can be granted:
1) Look only
2) With ability to initiate transactions

Perhaps only the second one allows aggregation for Flagship status. That makes sense to me because it affects how much is under your control.
I have limited agent capabilities on any account I manage, two DDs, a BIL, a SIL, and DW.

But I have Flagship just on my accounts. I was speculating if they aggregated everything and somehow I am Flagship Select. Or, maybe Flagship was the cutoff. Who knows? I don't for sure.

We will just have to see what endgame rolls out.

Broken Man 1999
“If I cannot drink Bourbon and smoke cigars in Heaven then I shall not go." - Mark Twain
egrets
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by egrets »

Bluce wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:33 am
OriginalOregonian wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:19 am Their phone service is horrible, and you can't find any answers with substance on their website. I thought their messaging service was quite good. Why the heck would they remove this?!

For folks that are hard of hearing, or have other limits for not being able to call, this is a very insensitive move on their part. Ridiculous. Also, after 5pm on the west coast which is when I'm available, email is/was the only way to reach them. Thanks to this thread, I'm going to Fidelity. It's clear that Vanguard does not want my business.
In the past 15 years or so -- give or take -- many large companies have glommed onto computerized phone systems with the illusion that they were moving ahead. In effect, they have done everything they can to insulate themselves from PEOPLE WHO WANT TO GIVE THEM MONEY. Doesn't sound like a brilliant business plan to me.

But the lemming follows the one ahead of him, and here we are.

Two years ago I dumped my MasterCard because of the difficulty of getting ahold of a human being. The best rated customer-service card was Discover, so I've been with them ever since, and no complaints.

Around the same time I also dumped Tracphone for the same reason. I went with the best-rated customer service cell provider, Consumer Cellular and no regrets.
CapOne has excellent customer service in my experience. Consumer Cellular used to have excellent customer service, but that went into the toilet several months ago, now their chat people are no nothings.
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by nisiprius »

Broken Man 1999 wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:10 pm ...I just received an answer to the question I posed to Vanguard via email...
I agree completely that the rep who answered the question deserved all fives. As to the actual content of the answer...


Thank you for taking the time to contact us about shoelaces not being included with some Psyche shoes.

Psyche is always testing new experiences and those experiences may vary from customer to customer. When we test out changes to our shoes, we may do so on a smaller scale that doesn’t impact all customers. This may mean that your experience will differ slightly from another client’s experience.

There are some customers who will be no longer have shoelaces included with their shoes.

Please note, at this time you are not affected by this change. Your Psyche shoes will continue to include shoelaces at absolutely no cost to you.

Clients that do not have shoelaces can still secure their shoes by fabricating their own shoelaces. The easy-to-use self-service directions can be located in the support center at the below link.
Last edited by nisiprius on Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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jeffyscott
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by jeffyscott »

nisiprius wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:35 pm
Broken Man 1999 wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:10 pm ...I just received an answer to the question I posed to Vanguard via email...
I agree completely that the rep who answered the question deserved all fives. As to the actual content of the answer...


Thank you for taking the time to contact us about shoelaces not being included with some Psyche shoes.

Psyche is always testing new experiences and those experiences may vary from customer to customer. When we test out changes to our shoes, we may do so on a smaller scale that doesn’t impact all customers. This may mean that your experience will differ slightly from another client’s experience.

There are some customers who will be no longer have shoelaces included with their shoes.

Please note, at this time you are not affected by this change. Your Psyche shoes will continue to include shoelaces at absolutely no cost to you.

Clients that do not have shoelaces can still secure their shoes by fabricating their own shoelaces. The easy-to-use self-service directions can be located in the support center can at the below link.
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Bluce
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by Bluce »

egrets wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:21 pm
Bluce wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:33 am In the past 15 years or so -- give or take -- many large companies have glommed onto computerized phone systems with the illusion that they were moving ahead. In effect, they have done everything they can to insulate themselves from PEOPLE WHO WANT TO GIVE THEM MONEY. Doesn't sound like a brilliant business plan to me.

But the lemming follows the one ahead of him, and here we are.

Two years ago I dumped my MasterCard because of the difficulty of getting ahold of a human being. The best rated customer-service card was Discover, so I've been with them ever since, and no complaints.

Around the same time I also dumped Tracphone for the same reason. I went with the best-rated customer service cell provider, Consumer Cellular and no regrets.
CapOne has excellent customer service in my experience. Consumer Cellular used to have excellent customer service, but that went into the toilet several months ago, now their chat people are no nothings.
Ha, no kidding? I haven't called CC for probably a year now, and they were in the middle of Covid hysteria at the time so I gave them a pass on any abnormalities.

I've never heard of "CapOne."
"There are no new ideas, only forgotten ones." -- Amity Shlaes
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FrugalProfessor
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by FrugalProfessor »

lazynovice wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:47 am
Bluce wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:33 am Maybe this and other complaints are the result of having the lowest ERs out there. Something has to give.

“There is no free lunch.”
They don’t have the lowest ERs. Their total stock market fund is 2.7x the cost of Fidelity’s. Almost three times as much! Same with the S&P 500 fund. Their S&P 500 fund is double the cost of Schwab’s

Mid cap and small cap? Double Fidelity’s. All right there in the wiki…

https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Mutual_ ... Bogleheads
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/ETFs_for_Bogleheads

The idea that Vanguard is the low cost leader has just been marketing for several years now.
Even if VG mutual funds don't hold a cost advantage on a pre-tax basis relative to Schwab/Fidelity MF's (for example), they still hold a slight cap gains and qualified dividend advantage relative to other firms (thanks to superior tax efficiency), right?

I was too lazy to compare further, but here's what I found for QDI:
* Schwab:
** https://www.schwabassetmanagement.com/r ... e-qdi-2020
** Total US stock market index: 92.47%
** S&P 500: 97.96%

* Fidelity:
** https://institutional.fidelity.com/app/ ... 842880.PDF
** Total US stock market index: 99.9373%, 91.0698% (for 2 dividends paid last year)
** S&P 500: 98.2775%, 93.6630%, 93.6630%, 93.6630% (for 4 dividends paid last year)

* Vanguard:
** https://advisors.vanguard.com/tax-cente ... end-income
** Total US stock market index: 96.01%
** S&P 500: 97.96%

Cap gains distributions:
* Fidelity: https://www.fidelity.com/mutual-funds/i ... le=actuals
* Schwab: https://www.schwabassetmanagement.com/r ... tions-2020
* Vanguard: https://institutional.vanguard.com/iam/ ... omain=true

All $0 cap gains distributions for 2020 for total stock market index + S&P 500 index for all three firms. Interesting.

I'm a bit surprised at Schwab + Fidelity's $0 Cap Gains distributions. For some reason, I thought that VG's patented "heartbeat" methodology gave them a leg up on the competition: https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2019 ... tax-dodge/. Maybe that advantage is only pertinent for higher turnover funds (e.g. actively managed funds).

Looking at Schwab's PDF a bit more, there are several index funds with non-zero cap gains distributions. I guess that is consistent with my prior.

I'm pretty happy with VG mutual funds. I don't mind calling once a decade when I need help I can't figure out on my own. I don't see a huge reason for people to panic.

But I also sympathize with people leaving for Schwab + Fidelity in today's era of $0 commissions on <=0.03% ER ETFs. If the universe of investors were DIY with $0 commissions holding <=0.03% ER ETFs, surely Schwab and Fidelity couldn't afford to keep the lights on with their level of superior service. This high level of service is subsidized by the fees harvested from the higher-cost side of their operations. I've read other threads expressing skepticism for when they die and their spouse is "helped" by advisors at Schwab/Fidelity relative to Vanguard. This fear alone provides a decent argument to keep funds at VG.
I blog here: https://www.frugalprofessor.com/
AZAttorney11
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by AZAttorney11 »

FrugalProfessor wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:47 pm I've read other threads expressing skepticism for when they die and their spouse is "helped" by advisors at Schwab/Fidelity relative to Vanguard. This fear alone provides a decent argument to keep funds at VG.
Why is it appropriate to be fearful of Schwab or Fidelity "helping" a surviving spouse and not also being fearful of Vanguard "suggesting" PAS at .3% a year? It seems a lot of folks ascribe some sort of benevolence to Vanguard and demonize Schwab, Fidelity, etc. I don't get it.
nalor511
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by nalor511 »

FrugalProfessor wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:47 pm
lazynovice wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:47 am
Bluce wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:33 am Maybe this and other complaints are the result of having the lowest ERs out there. Something has to give.

“There is no free lunch.”
They don’t have the lowest ERs. Their total stock market fund is 2.7x the cost of Fidelity’s. Almost three times as much! Same with the S&P 500 fund. Their S&P 500 fund is double the cost of Schwab’s

Mid cap and small cap? Double Fidelity’s. All right there in the wiki…

https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Mutual_ ... Bogleheads
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/ETFs_for_Bogleheads

The idea that Vanguard is the low cost leader has just been marketing for several years now.
Even if VG mutual funds don't hold a cost advantage on a pre-tax basis relative to Schwab/Fidelity MF's (for example), they still hold a slight cap gains and qualified dividend advantage relative to other firms (thanks to superior tax efficiency), right?

I was too lazy to compare further, but here's what I found for QDI:
* Schwab:
** https://www.schwabassetmanagement.com/r ... e-qdi-2020
** Total US stock market index: 92.47%
** S&P 500: 97.96%

* Fidelity:
** https://institutional.fidelity.com/app/ ... 842880.PDF
** Total US stock market index: 99.9373%, 91.0698% (for 2 dividends paid last year)
** S&P 500: 98.2775%, 93.6630%, 93.6630%, 93.6630% (for 4 dividends paid last year)

* Vanguard:
** https://advisors.vanguard.com/tax-cente ... end-income
** Total US stock market index: 96.01%
** S&P 500: 97.96%

Cap gains distributions:
* Fidelity: https://www.fidelity.com/mutual-funds/i ... le=actuals
* Schwab: https://www.schwabassetmanagement.com/r ... tions-2020
* Vanguard: https://institutional.vanguard.com/iam/ ... omain=true

All $0 cap gains distributions for 2020 for total stock market index + S&P 500 index for all three firms. Interesting.

I'm a bit surprised at Schwab + Fidelity's $0 Cap Gains distributions. For some reason, I thought that VG's patented "heartbeat" methodology gave them a leg up on the competition: https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2019 ... tax-dodge/. Maybe that advantage is only pertinent for higher turnover funds (e.g. actively managed funds).

Looking at Schwab's PDF a bit more, there are several index funds with non-zero cap gains distributions. I guess that is consistent with my prior.

I'm pretty happy with VG mutual funds. I don't mind calling once a decade when I need help I can't figure out on my own. I don't see a huge reason for people to panic.

But I also sympathize with people leaving for Schwab + Fidelity in today's era of $0 commissions on <=0.03% ER ETFs. If the universe of investors were DIY with $0 commissions holding <=0.03% ER ETFs, surely Schwab and Fidelity couldn't afford to keep the lights on with their level of superior service. This high level of service is subsidized by the fees harvested from the higher-cost side of their operations. I've read other threads expressing skepticism for when they die and their spouse is "helped" by advisors at Schwab/Fidelity relative to Vanguard. This fear alone provides a decent argument to keep funds at VG.
You think this isn't true at Vanguard as well? PAS fees are subsidizing the entirety of VBS. You stay, I'll go.
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by Whakamole »

AZAttorney11 wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:51 pm
FrugalProfessor wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:47 pm I've read other threads expressing skepticism for when they die and their spouse is "helped" by advisors at Schwab/Fidelity relative to Vanguard. This fear alone provides a decent argument to keep funds at VG.
Why is it appropriate to be fearful of Schwab or Fidelity "helping" a surviving spouse and not also being fearful of Vanguard "suggesting" PAS at .3% a year? It seems a lot of folks ascribe some sort of benevolence to Vanguard and demonize Schwab, Fidelity, etc. I don't get it.
Vanguard is doing exactly this already.
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anon_investor
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by anon_investor »

beyou wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:43 pm
anon_investor wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:33 pm
AZAttorney11 wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:04 pm What a disaster. I'm so glad we moved from Vanguard as our broker when we did. Sadly, I'm sure Vanguard feels the same.
Where did you move your money to? As it appears Flagship status gives you no benefit, I am tempted to hunt for a brokerage bonus to move some Vanguard money out to test them out. I am looking at moving $100k to Merrill Edge/Bank of America to get the multiplier on their credit card rewards. However, I still have pleanty of funds to try to hunt for other bonuses.
Move some ? Problem is then you are even smaller a client. Maybe next they will remove the phone and statements, “just trust us, everything is fine, tiny client we don’t want”. I am considering same but if they treat us badly now, what more after a partial move out ?

I also tend to think the grass always looks greener. Whenever I have looked I have not found any fully satisfying alternative. So for now complain away to try and fix things.
Do you have a prefered all-in brokerage? Right now, I might try this Merrill Edge/Bank of America deal to get better cash back on my credit cards, that is a tangable benefit of having money parked somewhere, but I only need to move $100k.
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by sergeant »

All these comments about status levels made me go and check. I have well over 2 million with Vanguard and went over a million five years ago. They still have me at Voyager Select. I sent them a message asking for clarification.

I have not received notification about them removing the message center.
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Da5id
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by Da5id »

sergeant wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:06 pm All these comments about status levels made me go and check. I have well over 2 million with Vanguard and went over a million five years ago. They still have me at Voyager Select. I sent them a message asking for clarification.

I have not received notification about them removing the message center.
I also had to ask when I got to flagship. Seems like they could automate that a bit.
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by lazynovice »

02nz wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:57 pm
lazynovice wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:23 am Didn’t you say earlier that the Zero funds were bad because they could not be moved? Can we say Vanguard seems to have a lot of funds that also lock you in to using their services because they can’t be moved elsewhere? It sounds like Vanguard has more than 4? I think we should talk about this more in these threads and warn people not to hold them in taxable accounts like we do the Zero funds. Tax deferred is fine but taxable- no way.
Most if not all Vanguard stock index funds can either be transferred as-is to another brokerage (in some cases you cannot buy more at the other brokerage, but transferring and holding is ok); or you can convert them to ETFs and transfer that way. Did it myself, pretty easy. You are drawing a false equivalence with Fidelity's uniquely non-portable Zero funds, which cannot be transferred to, or held at, at ANY other brokerage. I don't know of ANY other mutual fund with that kind of restriction, certainly not from the major mutual fund families.

(Not a Vanguard fanboy here, in fact I left after they screwed up a bunch of stuff. But leaving was easy.)
You should read the whole thread because there are several people who claim they have Vanguard funds they cannot HOLD elsewhere. Oh wait- even you said “most of not all can be transferred” so nope not a false equivalency. So are you and the other posters in this thread mistaken? Can all Vanguard funds be transferred to other brokerages?
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by beyou »

lazynovice wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:13 pm
02nz wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:57 pm
lazynovice wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:23 am Didn’t you say earlier that the Zero funds were bad because they could not be moved? Can we say Vanguard seems to have a lot of funds that also lock you in to using their services because they can’t be moved elsewhere? It sounds like Vanguard has more than 4? I think we should talk about this more in these threads and warn people not to hold them in taxable accounts like we do the Zero funds. Tax deferred is fine but taxable- no way.
Most if not all Vanguard stock index funds can either be transferred as-is to another brokerage (in some cases you cannot buy more at the other brokerage, but transferring and holding is ok); or you can convert them to ETFs and transfer that way. Did it myself, pretty easy. You are drawing a false equivalence with Fidelity's uniquely non-portable Zero funds, which cannot be transferred to, or held at, at ANY other brokerage. I don't know of ANY other mutual fund with that kind of restriction, certainly not from the major mutual fund families.

(Not a Vanguard fanboy here, in fact I left after they screwed up a bunch of stuff. But leaving was easy.)
You should read the whole thread because there are several people who claim they have Vanguard funds they cannot HOLD elsewhere. Oh wait- even you said “most of not all can be transferred” so nope not a false equivalency. So are you and the other posters in this thread mistaken? Can all Vanguard funds be transferred to other brokerages?
Most not all can be transferred.
Fund managers enter agreements to let brokers sell their products/funds, but such agreements don’t always include all funds. Sorta like when you super cable plan drops your favorite channel due to a dispute, and never adds it back. Willing to live without that one or move on ?
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by DividendMickey »

sergeant wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:06 pm All these comments about status levels made me go and check. I have well over 2 million with Vanguard and went over a million five years ago. They still have me at Voyager Select. I sent them a message asking for clarification.

I have not received notification about them removing the message center.
With respect to the ongoing side discussion about status level, the "levels" intrigued me as well. So I looked it up earlier and there's an asterisk in the descriptions which indicates that the dollar amounts they are listing for certain "levels" ($500k, $1M, etc.) mean that the monies must all be in Vanguard funds/ETFs.

Accordingly, if you have $500k in PG stock or a combo of non-VG funds you are out of luck and those monies will not count.

That was my take on it, but someone else may have a different view.
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by galawdawg »

AZAttorney11 wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:51 pm
FrugalProfessor wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:47 pm I've read other threads expressing skepticism for when they die and their spouse is "helped" by advisors at Schwab/Fidelity relative to Vanguard. This fear alone provides a decent argument to keep funds at VG.
Why is it appropriate to be fearful of Schwab or Fidelity "helping" a surviving spouse and not also being fearful of Vanguard "suggesting" PAS at .3% a year? It seems a lot of folks ascribe some sort of benevolence to Vanguard and demonize Schwab, Fidelity, etc. I don't get it.
Yep, that is the fear mongering refrain oft-repeated here. But this is how I see the reality playing out.

John "Boglehead" Investor and his wife Jane have their portfolio at VG. John "instructs" his wife that if he passes, she is to move to VPAS. John predeceases Jane and Jane starts that process and perhaps even completes it. But Jane has trouble getting in touch with her Vanguard representative. She can't reach him when it is convenient for her and her advisor isn't the best at returning calls. Instead of taking the time to talk with her about her investments and explain things to her, she feels like is is getting rushed off the phone. One Saturday she tries to call Vanguard and can't get through. Jane is getting worried about her money and can't understand why it is soooo hard to talk to the company that has it all. But there is a nice man in the area that her friend uses and his office is close...he works for Edward Jones. Her friend tells Jane Investor that the Edward Jones man is very patient and she can go to his office anytime she has a question and he'll even come to her house if she'd like. After getting the VIP treatment from the local Edward Jones representative, Jane Investor moves her investments to him. And he calls her regularly, sends a card on her birthday, remembers the anniversary of her husband's passing and even takes Jane to lunch once in a while. Jane is an EJ customer for life.

Now, is that result better than what could occur at Fidelity or Schwab? And if you think such a scenario isn't likely, you don't have much experience with senior widows who are naive and inexperienced about investing and want the kind of personal attention that an advisor she knows, can talk to on the phone conveniently and who has an office she can visit will provide. I know far too many widows who ended up at EJ after the passing of their spouse. I know a couple of EJ folks and they are good at what they do. Not the low-cost investing part....the getting and keeping customers part.

While Fidelity and Schwab may cost a little more than Vanguard for managed accounts, they also provide a much higher degree of attentiveness, availability and service that some are willing to pay for. While we Bogleheads are all about the lowest-cost, there are many in this world for whom that is not the primary consideration. In some cases, that will include our surviving spouse if the "Boglehead" in the family goes first.

So if paying a little more at Fidelity and Schwab to get that personal service, 24/7 availability and an office where a surviving non-Boglehead spouse can meet face to face with the person handling his/her investments keeps that surviving spouse from paying a lot more at Edward Jones...probably money well spent.
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by lazynovice »

FrugalProfessor wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:47 pm
lazynovice wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:47 am
Bluce wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:33 am Maybe this and other complaints are the result of having the lowest ERs out there. Something has to give.

“There is no free lunch.”
They don’t have the lowest ERs. Their total stock market fund is 2.7x the cost of Fidelity’s. Almost three times as much! Same with the S&P 500 fund. Their S&P 500 fund is double the cost of Schwab’s

Mid cap and small cap? Double Fidelity’s. All right there in the wiki…

https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Mutual_ ... Bogleheads
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/ETFs_for_Bogleheads

The idea that Vanguard is the low cost leader has just been marketing for several years now.
Even if VG mutual funds don't hold a cost advantage on a pre-tax basis relative to Schwab/Fidelity MF's (for example), they still hold a slight cap gains and qualified dividend advantage relative to other firms (thanks to superior tax efficiency), right?

I was too lazy to compare further, but here's what I found for QDI:
* Schwab:
** https://www.schwabassetmanagement.com/r ... e-qdi-2020
** Total US stock market index: 92.47%
** S&P 500: 97.96%

* Fidelity:
** https://institutional.fidelity.com/app/ ... 842880.PDF
** Total US stock market index: 99.9373%, 91.0698% (for 2 dividends paid last year)
** S&P 500: 98.2775%, 93.6630%, 93.6630%, 93.6630% (for 4 dividends paid last year)

* Vanguard:
** https://advisors.vanguard.com/tax-cente ... end-income
** Total US stock market index: 96.01%
** S&P 500: 97.96%

Cap gains distributions:
* Fidelity: https://www.fidelity.com/mutual-funds/i ... le=actuals
* Schwab: https://www.schwabassetmanagement.com/r ... tions-2020
* Vanguard: https://institutional.vanguard.com/iam/ ... omain=true

All $0 cap gains distributions for 2020 for total stock market index + S&P 500 index for all three firms. Interesting.

I'm a bit surprised at Schwab + Fidelity's $0 Cap Gains distributions. For some reason, I thought that VG's patented "heartbeat" methodology gave them a leg up on the competition: https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2019 ... tax-dodge/. Maybe that advantage is only pertinent for higher turnover funds (e.g. actively managed funds).

Looking at Schwab's PDF a bit more, there are several index funds with non-zero cap gains distributions. I guess that is consistent with my prior.

I'm pretty happy with VG mutual funds. I don't mind calling once a decade when I need help I can't figure out on my own. I don't see a huge reason for people to panic.

But I also sympathize with people leaving for Schwab + Fidelity in today's era of $0 commissions on <=0.03% ER ETFs. If the universe of investors were DIY with $0 commissions holding <=0.03% ER ETFs, surely Schwab and Fidelity couldn't afford to keep the lights on with their level of superior service. This high level of service is subsidized by the fees harvested from the higher-cost side of their operations. I've read other threads expressing skepticism for when they die and their spouse is "helped" by advisors at Schwab/Fidelity relative to Vanguard. This fear alone provides a decent argument to keep funds at VG.
Hmmmm. The comment wasn’t about tax efficiency. It was about how much money Vanguard makes and can they afford to provide messaging support. Tax efficiency is irrelevant.

But since you brought it up, your own data showed that Fidelity total market fund is more tax efficient than Vanguard so not sure how that helps Vanguard’s case.

Vanguard customers being afraid of their spouses or heirs being hoodwinked by Fidelity is best answered this way: If your spouse does not agree with your investing style and chooses to buy actively managed, high fee funds upon your death, she will do it at Edward Jones when Vanguard does not answer the phone and does not even have a way to message them. She won’t go to Fidelity or Schwab. Their service doesn’t compare to Edward Jones. Those guys will come to her house. And chances are pretty good you have a nephew or cousin or church friend who works for them and will know just the right way to approach her. You need to think much bigger in your paranoia.
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by FrugalProfessor »

galawdawg wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:19 pm
AZAttorney11 wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:51 pm
FrugalProfessor wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:47 pm I've read other threads expressing skepticism for when they die and their spouse is "helped" by advisors at Schwab/Fidelity relative to Vanguard. This fear alone provides a decent argument to keep funds at VG.
Why is it appropriate to be fearful of Schwab or Fidelity "helping" a surviving spouse and not also being fearful of Vanguard "suggesting" PAS at .3% a year? It seems a lot of folks ascribe some sort of benevolence to Vanguard and demonize Schwab, Fidelity, etc. I don't get it.
Yep, that is the fear mongering refrain oft-repeated here. But this is how I see the reality playing out.

John "Boglehead" Investor and his wife Jane have their portfolio at VG. John "instructs" his wife that if he passes, she is to move to VPAS. John predeceases Jane and Jane starts that process and perhaps even completes it. But Jane has trouble getting in touch with her Vanguard representative. She can't reach him when it is convenient for her and her advisor isn't the best at returning calls. Instead of taking the time to talk with her about her investments and explain things to her, she feels like is is getting rushed off the phone. One Saturday she tries to call Vanguard and can't get through. Jane is getting worried about her money and can't understand why it is soooo hard to talk to the company that has it all. But there is a nice man in the area that her friend uses and his office is close...he works for Edward Jones. Her friend tells Jane Investor that the Edward Jones man is very patient and she can go to his office anytime she has a question and he'll even come to her house if she'd like. After getting the VIP treatment from the local Edward Jones representative, Jane Investor moves her investments to him. And he calls her regularly, sends a card on her birthday, remembers the anniversary of her husband's passing and even takes Jane to lunch once in a while. Jane is an EJ customer for life.

Now, is that result better than what could occur at Fidelity or Schwab? And if you think such a scenario isn't likely, you don't have much experience with senior widows who are naive and inexperienced about investing and want the kind of personal attention that an advisor she knows, can talk to on the phone conveniently and who has an office she can visit will provide. I know far too many widows who ended up at EJ after the passing of their spouse. I know a couple of EJ folks and they are good at what they do. Not the low-cost investing part....the getting and keeping customers part.

While Fidelity and Schwab may cost a little more than Vanguard for managed accounts, they also provide a much higher degree of attentiveness, availability and service that some are willing to pay for. While we Bogleheads are all about the lowest-cost, there are many in this world for whom that is not the primary consideration. In some cases, that will include our surviving spouse if the "Boglehead" in the family goes first.

So if paying a little more at Fidelity and Schwab to get that personal service, 24/7 availability and an office where a surviving non-Boglehead spouse can meet face to face with the person handling his/her investments keeps that surviving spouse from paying a lot more at Edward Jones...probably money well spent.
I appreciate the response. I hadn't considered the EJ debacle.

My brother was convinced he wanted to be a financial advisor at Fidelity. I got on a three way call with him and Fidelity and played dumb pretending to have inherited a large sum of money. It was like watching a feeding frenzy of sharks with blood in the water. After the call, I told him that the rest of his life would be dedicated to preying on the stupidity of others. He chose another career.

That said, you've given me some food for thought.
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by ResearchMed »

DividendMickey wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:18 pm
sergeant wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:06 pm All these comments about status levels made me go and check. I have well over 2 million with Vanguard and went over a million five years ago. They still have me at Voyager Select. I sent them a message asking for clarification.

I have not received notification about them removing the message center.
With respect to the ongoing side discussion about status level, the "levels" intrigued me as well. So I looked it up earlier and there's an asterisk in the descriptions which indicates that the dollar amounts they are listing for certain "levels" ($500k, $1M, etc.) mean that the monies must all be in Vanguard funds/ETFs.

Accordingly, if you have $500k in PG stock or a combo of non-VG funds you are out of luck and those monies will not count.

That was my take on it, but someone else may have a different view.
Apparently Employer retirement plans (e.g., 403b) do not count, either, despite being invested in Vanguard funds.
Or it was this way a few years ago when I last asked.

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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by FrugalProfessor »

lazynovice wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:21 pm Hmmmm. The comment wasn’t about tax efficiency. It was about how much money Vanguard makes and can they afford to provide messaging support. Tax efficiency is irrelevant.

But since you brought it up, your own data showed that Fidelity total market fund is more tax efficient than Vanguard so not sure how that helps Vanguard’s case.

Vanguard customers being afraid of their spouses or heirs being hoodwinked by Fidelity is best answered this way: If your spouse does not agree with your investing style and chooses to buy actively managed, high fee funds upon your death, she will do it at Edward Jones when Vanguard does not answer the phone and does not even have a way to message them. She won’t go to Fidelity or Schwab. Their service doesn’t compare to Edward Jones. Those guys will come to her house. And chances are pretty good you have a nephew or cousin or church friend who works for them and will know just the right way to approach her. You need to think much bigger in your paranoia.
I thought your point was that VG doesn't necessarily have lowest cost funds.

My point is that VG might have the lowest effective MF cost in a taxable account after taking taxes into consideration. I did the math and proved myself mostly wrong, which I found surprising. Though I think I picked a favorable year for cap gains. In 2019 I think the Fidelity MF paid out cap gains.

Regardless, I'm here to learn. Not pick fights. Happy to concede that the tax differences are really small regardless. The movement towards $0 trading fees has certainly leveled the playing field as of late.
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by sergeant »

DividendMickey wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:18 pm
sergeant wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:06 pm All these comments about status levels made me go and check. I have well over 2 million with Vanguard and went over a million five years ago. They still have me at Voyager Select. I sent them a message asking for clarification.

I have not received notification about them removing the message center.
With respect to the ongoing side discussion about status level, the "levels" intrigued me as well. So I looked it up earlier and there's an asterisk in the descriptions which indicates that the dollar amounts they are listing for certain "levels" ($500k, $1M, etc.) mean that the monies must all be in Vanguard funds/ETFs.

Accordingly, if you have $500k in PG stock or a combo of non-VG funds you are out of luck and those monies will not count.

That was my take on it, but someone else may have a different view.
Yea, that is my take. I have well over $2m in actual Vanguard funds. I have another $2m+ in other stuff.
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by FrugalProfessor »

AZAttorney11 wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:51 pm
FrugalProfessor wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:47 pm I've read other threads expressing skepticism for when they die and their spouse is "helped" by advisors at Schwab/Fidelity relative to Vanguard. This fear alone provides a decent argument to keep funds at VG.
Why is it appropriate to be fearful of Schwab or Fidelity "helping" a surviving spouse and not also being fearful of Vanguard "suggesting" PAS at .3% a year? It seems a lot of folks ascribe some sort of benevolence to Vanguard and demonize Schwab, Fidelity, etc. I don't get it.
As stated above in another comment, I called Fidelity once pretending to have inherited a large sum. I was appalled at the kind of advice I received. That said, I haven't repeated the experiment for VG/Schwab.

I'm not particularly knowledgeable to how predatory high-cost advising varies across brokerages. I guess I need to learn more. My blind faith in VG is probably unwarranted.
nalor511 wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:52 pm You think this isn't true at Vanguard as well? PAS fees are subsidizing the entirety of VBS. You stay, I'll go.
I'm pretty ignorant to how it works at VG. I had the impression it was more favorable than the others on this dimension. I guess I need to learn more.
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by anon_investor »

FrugalProfessor wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:35 pm
AZAttorney11 wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:51 pm
FrugalProfessor wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:47 pm I've read other threads expressing skepticism for when they die and their spouse is "helped" by advisors at Schwab/Fidelity relative to Vanguard. This fear alone provides a decent argument to keep funds at VG.
Why is it appropriate to be fearful of Schwab or Fidelity "helping" a surviving spouse and not also being fearful of Vanguard "suggesting" PAS at .3% a year? It seems a lot of folks ascribe some sort of benevolence to Vanguard and demonize Schwab, Fidelity, etc. I don't get it.
As stated above in another comment, I called Fidelity once pretending to have inherited a large sum. I was appalled at the kind of advice I received. That said, I haven't repeated the experiment for VG/Schwab.

I'm not particularly knowledgeable to how predatory high-cost advising varies across brokerages. I guess I need to learn more. My blind faith in VG is probably unwarranted.
nalor511 wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:52 pm You think this isn't true at Vanguard as well? PAS fees are subsidizing the entirety of VBS. You stay, I'll go.
I'm pretty ignorant to how it works at VG. I had the impression it was more favorable than the others on this dimension. I guess I need to learn more.
I have had the what if I die talk with my spouse who is disinterested in finance. I have walked her though very specific and simple investment and withdrawal instructions using Vanguard Balanced Index fund. If we leave Vanguard I will have to come up with new instructions... She knows enough to stay away from expensive AUM financial advisors.
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by goingup »

You have to wonder what Vanguard is doing here. It seems like in an effort to improve customer service they are reducing the channels to contact them. Less channels, less ability to contact them, less unsatisfactory interactions? :oops:

Remember when certain brick and mortar banks decided that they would charge customers for each in-branch visit? If you went inside to a teller, there would be a $20 charge. That was a failed experiment. Most companies think more interactions with customers are beneficial. More "touches", as they say.

I think they are trying to jettison the nettlesome low-balance customers. Can you imagine the volume of messages sent to Vanguard in the last year with everyone at home perseverating over their nest-egg balances. Couple that with employment challenges and you have the geniuses in Vanguard's C-suites making the kind of decisions that would have made Jack Bogle tremulous with rage.

So much for helping the little guy advance through the ranks to Flagship status. General Motors used to have the philosophy that young buyers would buy affordable Chevrolets, advance through the Pontiacs, and end up with an Olds, Buick or hopefully a Cadillac, if they were really old and flush.

I think Vanguard once had that type of philosophy. Start with Star Fund, or a TDF. Expand into broad indexes. Accrue assets to be a Voyager, Voyager Select, Flagship. Reach status nirvana at Flagship Select, and be showered with benefits, services, and freebies.

What the heck? Now the chief benefit of Flagship Select ($5m+) is having a Relationship Manager that you can email? I wonder if Vanguard execs truly understand that we all are taking note of these developments.
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by AZAttorney11 »

goingup wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:15 pm You have to wonder what Vanguard is doing here. It seems like in an effort to improve customer service they are reducing the channels to contact them. Less channels, less ability to contact them, less unsatisfactory interactions? :oops:

Remember when certain brick and mortar banks decided that they would charge customers for each in-branch visit? If you went inside to a teller, there would be a $20 charge. That was a failed experiment. Most companies think more interactions with customers are beneficial. More "touches", as they say.

I think they are trying to jettison the nettlesome low-balance customers. Can you imagine the volume of messages sent to Vanguard in the last year with everyone at home perseverating over their nest-egg balances. Couple that with employment challenges and you have the geniuses in Vanguard's C-suites making the kind of decisions that would have made Jack Bogle tremulous with rage.

So much for helping the little guy advance through the ranks to Flagship status. General Motors used to have the philosophy that young buyers would buy affordable Chevrolets, advance through the Pontiacs, and end up with an Olds, Buick or hopefully a Cadillac, if they were really old and flush.

I think Vanguard once had that type of philosophy. Start with Star Fund, or a TDF. Expand into broad indexes. Accrue assets to be a Voyager, Voyager Select, Flagship. Reach status nirvana at Flagship Select, and be showered with benefits, services, and freebies.

What the heck? Now the chief benefit of Flagship Select ($5m+) is having a Relationship Manager that you can email? I wonder if Vanguard execs truly understand that we all are taking note of these developments.
The Vanguard execs are acutely aware of what they are doing, in my opinion. I'm sure there are massive financial incentives for them personally, but of course we have no idea what Vanguard pays its executives or how they are compensated, despite their customer-owned mutual structure.

I think Vanguard execs are actually jealous of BlackRock's business model. Launch a bunch of ETFs. Gather a ton of AUM. Be excellent at managing the funds. Let someone else deal with those pesky brokerage customers, expensive user interfaces, calls, emails, tax reporting, etc.

This is NOT the Vanguard Bogle founded. It's not even close.
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by Bluce »

goingup wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:15 pm You have to wonder what Vanguard is doing here. It seems like in an effort to improve customer service they are reducing the channels to contact them. Less channels, less ability to contact them, less unsatisfactory interactions? :oops:

Remember when certain brick and mortar banks decided that they would charge customers for each in-branch visit? If you went inside to a teller, there would be a $20 charge. That was a failed experiment. Most companies think more interactions with customers are beneficial. More "touches", as they say.

I think they are trying to jettison the nettlesome low-balance customers. Can you imagine the volume of messages sent to Vanguard in the last year with everyone at home perseverating over their nest-egg balances. Couple that with employment challenges and you have the geniuses in Vanguard's C-suites making the kind of decisions that would have made Jack Bogle tremulous with rage.

So much for helping the little guy advance through the ranks to Flagship status. General Motors used to have the philosophy that young buyers would buy affordable Chevrolets, advance through the Pontiacs, and end up with an Olds, Buick or hopefully a Cadillac, if they were really old and flush.

I think Vanguard once had that type of philosophy. Start with Star Fund, or a TDF. Expand into broad indexes. Accrue assets to be a Voyager, Voyager Select, Flagship. Reach status nirvana at Flagship Select, and be showered with benefits, services, and freebies.

What the heck? Now the chief benefit of Flagship Select ($5m+) is having a Relationship Manager that you can email? I wonder if Vanguard execs truly understand that we all are taking note of these developments.
I think most of the problem is what I previously posted:
Bluce wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:34 pm Yep. Businesses generally have lifespans like any living creature. When young and small they are aggressive, innovative, and pay attention to market signals. As they age and expand they do less of the above.

Eventually they turn into bureaucracies where the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing, and they don't pay as much attention to market signals. At some point they are actually incapable of doing so.

And then, with seemingly endless streams of capital available, they start living off their fat. Eventually it becomes so unwieldy and colossal that it will be impossible for anyone or any group to turn them around. The end is not far away.

Digging from my memory from the late '70s: roughly paraphrasing John DeLorean in On a Clear Day You Can See General Motors, "Attempting to make a change at the Chevrolet Division was like grabbing a dinosaur by the tail and trying to turn him around." 8-)
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by Swimmer »

I didn’t get the message. But I sent them a message asking what happened to my Flagship rep who I liked a lot. No response as yet.
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by stan1 »

Swimmer wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:04 pm I didn’t get the message. But I sent them a message asking what happened to my Flagship rep who I liked a lot. No response as yet.
All of you who want 2 way messaging aren't doing yourselves any favors with these type of nuisance messages that they have to respond to. They'll never tell us but I wonder what percentage of messages are non-actionable complaints or become polite responses to RTFM? Over 50%?
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by Tubes »

The bad news keeps coming. So now I find out on this thread that Consumer Cellular service has gone down the drain too? Seriously? I switched to them 2 years ago and was totally impressed by their service. I'm not a senior, I'm a bit techy, but I couldn't get all the stuff configured right on my unlocked Moto (APN esoteric stuff, SMS settings, etc.) Their service did not treat my like grandpa. He immediately understood my tech level and we got the phone configured in a few minutes. Just super fantastic service.

Now people are saying that's gone too? :(

BTW, I'm one of those Flagship people who lost their rep and get directed to a "team" instead. The mystery algorithm is at work.
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by Doom&Gloom »

stan1 wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:12 pm
Swimmer wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:04 pm I didn’t get the message. But I sent them a message asking what happened to my Flagship rep who I liked a lot. No response as yet.
All of you who want 2 way messaging aren't doing yourselves any favors with these type of nuisance messages that they have to respond to. They'll never tell us but I wonder what percentage of messages are non-actionable complaints or become polite responses to RTFM? Over 50%?
I'll bet they did see a nice little bump in their Inbox when they got to the office this morning.
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by Da5id »

stan1 wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:12 pm
Swimmer wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:04 pm I didn’t get the message. But I sent them a message asking what happened to my Flagship rep who I liked a lot. No response as yet.
All of you who want 2 way messaging aren't doing yourselves any favors with these type of nuisance messages that they have to respond to. They'll never tell us but I wonder what percentage of messages are non-actionable complaints or become polite responses to RTFM? Over 50%?
I suspect they are more tolerant of messages from people with more AUM. Doubt this will move the needle anyway.
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by Tubes »

Da5id wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:51 pm I suspect they are more tolerant of messages from people with more AUM. Doubt this will move the needle anyway.
Not seeing outrage anywhere else. I'm surprised the Early Retirement forum isn't agitated by this. So, I suspect the bump to the inbox won't be too great.
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by galawdawg »

Tubes wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:55 pm
Da5id wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:51 pm I suspect they are more tolerant of messages from people with more AUM. Doubt this will move the needle anyway.
Not seeing outrage anywhere else. I'm surprised the Early Retirement forum isn't agitated by this. So, I suspect the bump to the inbox won't be too great.
Yep. Not much of a bump in the Vanguard inbox. But I suspect the reason is because that is one area where Vanguard IT excels...they keyword search all incoming messages and route most of them straight to trash. :happy
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by Yesterdaysnews »

I agree with whomever said VG wants to go the Blackrock model if possible. Makes the most sense to become a mega-AUM fee generating machine without the hassles of running a great brokerage, especially when you don’t have to and continue to gain AUM.

In fact, even if I switch brokerages I will probably continue to buy VG ETF products and many people are the same.
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by drzzzzz »

DividendMickey wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:18 pm
sergeant wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:06 pm All these comments about status levels made me go and check. I have well over 2 million with Vanguard and went over a million five years ago. They still have me at Voyager Select. I sent them a message asking for clarification.

I have not received notification about them removing the message center.
With respect to the ongoing side discussion about status level, the "levels" intrigued me as well. So I looked it up earlier and there's an asterisk in the descriptions which indicates that the dollar amounts they are listing for certain "levels" ($500k, $1M, etc.) mean that the monies must all be in Vanguard funds/ETFs.

Accordingly, if you have $500k in PG stock or a combo of non-VG funds you are out of luck and those monies will not count.

That was my take on it, but someone else may have a different view.
This is correct, have had this discussion with our flagship rep in the past that Vanguard only counts Vanguard funds/etf toward their flagship levels. We used to have a lot of individual stocks with large gains at Vanguard, now they sit at Fidelity who gave us money to open accounts and transfer the assets over.
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by water2357 »

I was hoping to use Vanguard to consolidate more of my assets and also recommend them to another individual. With the steady decrease in customer service over the last few years, I no longer trust them to maintain a sufficient level of customer service to follow through on everything that will be needed in coming years, particularly retirement.

I just wish I had known this before any transfers were made. Now I will need to again diversify to other financial service providers. Depending on any one financial service provider has been a bust any time I have tried it. It never works. Brokers change, banks close or are bought out, fees are added, service level decreases. Very disheartening.

So, it's back to searching out other options again.

Interesting that every bank I deal with has added secure email and more on line features and also has phone access. Vanguard is the only financial service provider that I know of that is doing away with secure email and often hiding the links to their customer service phone numbers on line and cutting phone service hours. If nothing else, Vanguard really needs a 24/7 contact for errors that Vanguard makes to customer accounts. With as many security breaches that occur every day, how can Vanguard deal with that if no one can contact them in a timely manner? Just not acceptable today.
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Re: VG Removing Message Center

Post by usagi »

Nate79 wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:39 pm Luckily you are all owners so maybe you should have a shareholder initiative to improve customer service and add back secure messaging (maybe add in chat feature). You could do this at their annual meeting and get everyone to vote for it?

Oh wait......
+1 LOL, oh man, that is hilarious.
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by HanSolo »

beyou wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:03 pm It appears they are trying this on many clients, probably not including Flagship clients, to see how angry people get.
You mean if a lot of people get angry and leave, then their experiment was successful?

(I thought I was being sarcastic, but now I'm not really sure.)
water2357 wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 12:35 am Interesting that every bank I deal with has added secure email and more on line features and also has phone access.
I'm assuming that doesn't include Citi. No matter how bad things get at VG, I'm pretty sure they'll never get down to that level.

There were times I tried to send a message on the Citi website and got some vague "this feature is not available at the current time, try again later" (later never comes). There are times I got an email saying a document is waiting for me on the website, and then when I login, there's no document.

Today (August 2), I tried to visit my branch and it was closed, with no notice posted. Then I tried to call Citi customer service, went through several layers of automated messages (including entering my PIN), only to hear a recording saying customer service is offline due to technical problems (then they hung up). Then I went to another branch, they told me the manager was sick or something, and they don't know when my branch will open again (I need to access my safe deposit box).

Not to deep-end on a Citi rant, but I just wanted to illustrate that things at VG could be much, much worse.
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galawdawg
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Re: VG Removing Message Center

Post by galawdawg »

galawdawg wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:42 am
Tubes wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:53 am
barefootjan wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:38 am For everyone’s sake, I hope they’re not going to replace the service with some sort of peer support a la Apple and Microsoft, where you have frustrated people trying to find a definitive answer to their question while their fellow sufferers attempt to guide them through a never-ending maze of FAQs that may or may not be up to date…..and when you come back three years later, they’re still trying to figure it out.
Well, they are "...committed to improving <our> experience on <the> website..." so, if that's an "improvement" to them, it could be coming.
Vanguard already relies on peer support...it is called Bogleheads! :sharebeer
This was kind of tongue-in-cheek, but here's something I found this morning. I am contemplating moving out of VTSAX and VBTLX and into SWTSX and SWAGX in our tax-advantaged accounts, as the Schwab versions are 0.03% while VG is still 0.04%. I know that is not much in the grand scheme of things but I find myself more distrusting of Vanguard as time goes on.

I rebalanced not long ago so sold a modest amount of VTSAX and purchased more VBTLX. I recalled something in the order confirmation about redemption and trading policies but I didn't continue to save the PDF of that page after I got my July 31 statement and confirmed everything was correct. I thought I'd go to Vanguard's website for help.

I started with this page after a Google search: https://personal.vanguard.com/us/whatwe ... tionpolicy. Note the hyperlink text "Read our frequent-trading policy." What happens when you click on that hyperlink? It takes you to Vanguard's homepage. Yep. Here is the embedded hyperlink to "Read our frequent-trading policy": https://personal.vanguard.com/#

Seriously???? That is something any twelve-year old can probably do correctly nowadays. And Vanguard can't get that right????

So back to Google. Search for Vanguard frequent trading policy. What is the first relevant result, other than the prior non-functioning page? Yep, you guessed it.

https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Frequent_trading_policy

So it looks like Bogleheads really is the best support option!

Yet another reason for me to consider changing from a VG two-fund portfolio to a Schwab two-fund portfolio. Do I want a company with that level of sheer incompetence, a "we don't care" attitude, and who hides behind the thick curtain like the Wizard of Oz having anything to do with my retirement nest egg??
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beyou
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by beyou »

HanSolo wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 5:28 am
beyou wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:03 pm It appears they are trying this on many clients, probably not including Flagship clients, to see how angry people get.
You mean if a lot of people get angry and leave, then their experiment was successful?

(I thought I was being sarcastic, but now I'm not really sure.)
water2357 wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 12:35 am Interesting that every bank I deal with has added secure email and more on line features and also has phone access.
I'm assuming that doesn't include Citi. No matter how bad things get at VG, I'm pretty sure they'll never get down to that level.

There were times I tried to send a message on the Citi website and got some vague "this feature is not available at the current time, try again later" (later never comes). There are times I got an email saying a document is waiting for me on the website, and then when I login, there's no document.

Today (August 2), I tried to visit my branch and it was closed, with no notice posted. Then I tried to call Citi customer service, went through several layers of automated messages (including entering my PIN), only to hear a recording saying customer service is offline due to technical problems (then they hung up). Then I went to another branch, they told me the manager was sick or something, and they don't know when my branch will open again (I need to access my safe deposit box).

Not to deep-end on a Citi rant, but I just wanted to illustrate that things at VG could be much, much worse.
You had to bring up Citi ;-)
They only prove how one can spend a ton on tech, people and still have bad service. They do have online chat, and 24 hour phone support but the support in both cases is horrible. Wait times vary from very long to acceptable. Responses vary from dumb to dumber. Site looks fine to me but often down. Credit card rewards that make you “sign up” for categories every 3 months but the sign up process broke online (closed out that cc). I keep a checking acct there as my sacrificial lamb (low balance, linked to things we fear to link). They just sent me an advert for their new DIY brokerage service coming online. Stocks only, no mutual funds yet. If you only want ETF I assume that is fine, but don’t even look for Investor class Vanguard funds at citibank, much less Admiral ! Free stock trading (just a bit behind on that one).
Last edited by beyou on Tue Aug 03, 2021 5:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Tubes
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by Tubes »

galawdawg wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:28 pm
Tubes wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:55 pm
Da5id wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:51 pm I suspect they are more tolerant of messages from people with more AUM. Doubt this will move the needle anyway.
Not seeing outrage anywhere else. I'm surprised the Early Retirement forum isn't agitated by this. So, I suspect the bump to the inbox won't be too great.
Yep. Not much of a bump in the Vanguard inbox. But I suspect the reason is because that is one area where Vanguard IT excels...they keyword search all incoming messages and route most of them straight to trash. :happy
:D :D
Yes, I agree with you and others about their terrible keywords searching. I can never find what I need. So, I go to google and it usually points me to this forum.
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by devopscoder »

I have seen messages about a new website experience for months now. I don’t recall getting this much advance notice from other companies. Not sure why this is necessary.

We just have one account with Vanguard which is my wife’s. It’s under $500K. I set up an IRA years ago and then consolidated the rest of her funds from Janus into Vanguard when I noticed Janus was under performing.

I see the secure message pop up and if you use the iOS app, you can also see a message about trying out a new experience with the app and website. I don’t have the wording in front of me as I thought I saved a screen shot but it seems I didn’t.

One annoyance about secure messaging with the app is that I need to enter the password and then the 2FA code.
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by nisiprius »

What do Vanguard's competitors current provide for email-like text messaging?

Oddly enough I still have a working login at Fidelity NetBenefits account (former employer's 401k) although I long since withdrew everything in it and it just says "account information temporarily unavailable."

Based on what I see, Vanguard might well be on a par with Fidelity, i.e. "they're all doing it." Maybe Fidelity NetBenefit once a had a text messaging option and killed "compose" and "send," or maybe mine is just nonfunctional because I don't have a real account?

Their robo-assistant seems only marginally better than Vanguard's.

It has a "Messages" option under "Customer Service." "Messages" is a separate choice from "Account Notices."

"Messages" links for "Received (0)" and "Sent (0)" both show "You have no mail at this time." But there isn't any "compose" or "send" button.

"Communications: Ways to Connect" shows "Ask the Virtual Assistant: Don't want to wait in a queue? Virtual Assistant is available." And it has "Contact us: Phone numbers, dialing instructions and other details."

The only "Contact Us" option shown is two 800 voice numbers.

So I decided to test out Fidelity's virtual assistant. I'm just going to reproduce my question and all of the top search hits it showed me immediately.

Q: What is the minimum purchase for FCNTX?
A: Maybe you'll find this helpful...
--Financial wellness: Student debt
----1 out of 6 American adults carry student debt--so, if you do, you're not alone. See how…
--Financial wellness: Improve your credit
----The average credit score is in the high 600s. Learn about the factors that affect your…

Q: When is my next RMD?
A: Here are some frequently asked questions about RMDs.
Buttons below are suggested questions:
--What is an RMD?
--How do I calculate and take my RMD?
--When do I take my RMD?

Q: What is Fidelity's fax number?
A: Fax information is usually included with your documents. If you still have questions, please go to Customer Service to see ways to connect with us.

Just for laughs:
Q: Can I invest in cryptocurrency at Fidelity?
A: Maybe you'll find this helpful...
--Customer Service
----Need Help? Here is some helpful information for ways to contact our Customer Service…
--Financial wellness: Learn how to invest
----You don't need to have a degree in economics to work on your portfolio. See how stocks…
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by Tubes »

nisiprius wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:55 am What do Vanguard's competitors current provide for email-like text messaging?

Oddly enough I still have a working login at Fidelity NetBenefits account (former employer's 401k) although I long since withdrew everything in it and it just says "account information temporarily unavailable."

Based on what I see, Vanguard might well be on a par with Fidelity, i.e. "they're all doing it." Maybe Fidelity NetBenefit once a had a text messaging option and killed "compose" and "send," or maybe mine is just nonfunctional because I don't have a real account?

Their robo-assistant seems only marginally better than Vanguard's.
...
NetBenefits puts you in a "penalty box" of sorts. You get nowhere the features of the full Fidelity web site. And as I mentioned earlier, Netbenefits assets don't count towards the Fidelity magic number.

I do agree with you on their robo... not much better.

A few friends work at Fidelity. After a few drinks, they have stories. Let's just say they are not perfect either. They seem to be trying harder though.
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by UpperNwGuy »

02nz wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:57 pm
lazynovice wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:23 am Didn’t you say earlier that the Zero funds were bad because they could not be moved? Can we say Vanguard seems to have a lot of funds that also lock you in to using their services because they can’t be moved elsewhere? It sounds like Vanguard has more than 4? I think we should talk about this more in these threads and warn people not to hold them in taxable accounts like we do the Zero funds. Tax deferred is fine but taxable- no way.
Most if not all Vanguard stock index funds can either be transferred as-is to another brokerage (in some cases you cannot buy more at the other brokerage, but transferring and holding is ok); or you can convert them to ETFs and transfer that way. Did it myself, pretty easy. You are drawing a false equivalence with Fidelity's uniquely non-portable Zero funds, which cannot be transferred to, or held at, at ANY other brokerage. I don't know of ANY other mutual fund with that kind of restriction, certainly not from the major mutual fund families.

(Not a Vanguard fanboy here, in fact I left after they screwed up a bunch of stuff. But leaving was easy.)
My understanding is that VWIUX, a large Vanguard mutual fund held by many bogleheads, cannot be held at other brokerages.
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