[Vanguard may remove secure messages, members transitioning out of Vanguard]

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59Gibson
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by 59Gibson »

I'm sure Vanguard will keep secure messaging if everyone(BHers especially) will simply submit and join PAS..or else they'll go full AUM 1%+ whether you like or not. :happy
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RickBoglehead
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by RickBoglehead »

Tubes wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:02 am
nisiprius wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:55 am What do Vanguard's competitors current provide for email-like text messaging?

Oddly enough I still have a working login at Fidelity NetBenefits account (former employer's 401k) although I long since withdrew everything in it and it just says "account information temporarily unavailable."

Based on what I see, Vanguard might well be on a par with Fidelity, i.e. "they're all doing it." Maybe Fidelity NetBenefit once a had a text messaging option and killed "compose" and "send," or maybe mine is just nonfunctional because I don't have a real account?

Their robo-assistant seems only marginally better than Vanguard's.
...
NetBenefits puts you in a "penalty box" of sorts. You get nowhere the features of the full Fidelity web site. And as I mentioned earlier, Netbenefits assets don't count towards the Fidelity magic number.

I do agree with you on their robo... not much better.

A few friends work at Fidelity. After a few drinks, they have stories. Let's just say they are not perfect either. They seem to be trying harder though.
Fidelity NetBenefits never had any option to communicate except calling. Their service was, and is, terrible. I had a major issue, they were no help, had to go through Abby Johnson's office, still no help. I fixed the issue with a 3-way phone call, and then pulled the funds.
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AZAttorney11
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by AZAttorney11 »

This thread is also a good reminder for those with substantial taxable accounts to choose ETFs over mutual funds, especially proprietary mutual funds (e.g., Fidelity Zero Funds) or mutual funds without an ETF equivalent. We're thrilled with Schwab at the moment, but if they go the way of Vanguard we'll simply switch brokers. Very, very easy to transfer brokers with an all ETF portfolio and not create a taxable event.
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LadyGeek
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by LadyGeek »

^^^ Good point.

I agree that Fidelity is not perfect, either. Although I'm very impressed with their website, that's not the full picture. Related to my small inheritance (posted here), was a very lengthy resolution of an estate trust. Nothing was contested, it was just complicated and took 2 years to resolve.

Once that was done, it was passed off to a Fidelity person to handle distribution of the trust funds. Without going into details, it was handled by an inexperienced person working remotely. My impression was that Fidelity is short on staff and this is the person who got to handle it. He didn't understand what was going on and frequently asked his coworkers for guidance. After many months of back-and-forth, the funds were distributed last week.

I got this information from the relative handling the trust distribution. She was contacting them once a week with an hour+ phone call each time. Forms were received, signed, and returned many times. I don't have the details (nor do I want to get involved), but there were some misunderstandings. From her perspective, the Fidelity rep didn't understand what she was trying to do and took a very long time to straighten out.

When I was notified about the trust distribution a few months ago, I called Fidelity to setup an account to receive the funds. Excellent phone support. I gave them a reference number for the case and they were on it. I actually had 2 reps on the line. It turns out all I needed was a brokerage account and the rep walked me through the online setup process. Easy for me, since I knew what to do. Even easier with the Fidelity rep telling me how to setup the account in real time.

So, I'm happy with Fidelity's level of support for what I wanted to do. I think the relative had a perfect storm of a complex trust situation with an inexperienced person because they were short on staff (conjecture, but this is my best guess on this situation).
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retiringwhen
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by retiringwhen »

Tubes wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:02 am
nisiprius wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:55 am What do Vanguard's competitors current provide for email-like text messaging?

Oddly enough I still have a working login at Fidelity NetBenefits account (former employer's 401k) although I long since withdrew everything in it and it just says "account information temporarily unavailable."

Based on what I see, Vanguard might well be on a par with Fidelity, i.e. "they're all doing it." Maybe Fidelity NetBenefit once a had a text messaging option and killed "compose" and "send," or maybe mine is just nonfunctional because I don't have a real account?

Their robo-assistant seems only marginally better than Vanguard's.
...
NetBenefits puts you in a "penalty box" of sorts. You get nowhere the features of the full Fidelity web site. And as I mentioned earlier, Netbenefits assets don't count towards the Fidelity magic number.

I do agree with you on their robo... not much better.

A few friends work at Fidelity. After a few drinks, they have stories. Let's just say they are not perfect either. They seem to be trying harder though.
We have 5 digits of assets at Fidelity in straight IRA/HSA plus the 2% credit card. No secure messaging is provided, but live chat is available.

update: under Contact Us, secure email is available with big notice to only use for non-time sensitive requests and mostly to use for sending secure forms, etc. This implies a potential reason why Vanguard is dropping their feature, they are getting spammed with stuff that doesn't belong. I bet they come back with a secure file delivery feature of some sort in the future for all those times we need to deliver stuff that just can't be sent by unencrypted email.

I have a long post in draft about a revised CMH Cost Matters Hypothesis that posits that one now has to look at not just the costs (ER, fees and tracking error) but also the services provided for those costs. The race to the bottom is a combination of lower fees/expenses coupled with reduced services across the industry.
Last edited by retiringwhen on Tue Aug 03, 2021 8:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
devopscoder
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by devopscoder »

I haven't checked Fidelity's in awhile but noticed that they have the following options:
- secure email
- chat with bot but can switch to a live person
- fidelity subreddit
- phone

Etrade has the following:
- chat
- screen share
- phone

I noticed that live chat is not available for my daughter's account while I do have it. Not sure why. It could be based on the age of her account or the amount of assets. (she has around $20K).
02nz
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by 02nz »

UpperNwGuy wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:03 am
02nz wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:57 pm
lazynovice wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:23 am Didn’t you say earlier that the Zero funds were bad because they could not be moved? Can we say Vanguard seems to have a lot of funds that also lock you in to using their services because they can’t be moved elsewhere? It sounds like Vanguard has more than 4? I think we should talk about this more in these threads and warn people not to hold them in taxable accounts like we do the Zero funds. Tax deferred is fine but taxable- no way.
Most if not all Vanguard stock index funds can either be transferred as-is to another brokerage (in some cases you cannot buy more at the other brokerage, but transferring and holding is ok); or you can convert them to ETFs and transfer that way. Did it myself, pretty easy. You are drawing a false equivalence with Fidelity's uniquely non-portable Zero funds, which cannot be transferred to, or held at, at ANY other brokerage. I don't know of ANY other mutual fund with that kind of restriction, certainly not from the major mutual fund families.

(Not a Vanguard fanboy here, in fact I left after they screwed up a bunch of stuff. But leaving was easy.)
My understanding is that VWIUX, a large Vanguard mutual fund held by many bogleheads, cannot be held at other brokerages.
The problem with lack of portability is the tax cost to move the money when held in taxable. A bond fund will have little to no unrealized capital gains, as its NAV moves in a narrow range and returns largely come from dividends. Fidelity's ZERO Funds have far larger potential capital gains, and the tax cost to liquidate and move will be much higher.
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galawdawg
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by galawdawg »

nisiprius wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:55 am What do Vanguard's competitors current provide for email-like text messaging?
Schwab has secure messaging for all customers. You can send messages and/or upload documents. In fact, for the very few instances where Schwab requires a form (POA and taxable account beneficiary designation are the two I know of), they encourage the customer to simply upload the completed form, rather than mailing it. I did that with a POA and then on a second occasion with the taxable beneficiary designation. Each time, the form was processed in a matter of a few hours and the change/update noted in the account immediately thereafter.

As I noted upthread, all Schwab customers have these options:

1. Schwab customer service by phone 24/7
2. Schwab customer service by live chat, M-F 9am-9pm (some report that it may now be available 24/7)
3. Schwab customer service by secure message
4. Schwab branch office locations for in-person visits

And for those Schwab customers with $250k or more at Schwab, they also have:

5. A dedicated senior financial consultant who can be reached by direct phone line and direct email, as well as
6. A financial consultant partner who can likewise be reached by direct phone line and direct email

Schwab also puts their fax number on their Contact Us page: https://client.schwab.com/Service/Conta ... chwab.aspx. So it looks like fax is also an option!
Nthomas
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by Nthomas »

nisiprius wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:55 am
And for those Schwab customers with $250k or more at Schwab, they also have:

5. A dedicated senior financial consultant who can be reached by direct phone line and direct email, as well as
6. A financial consultant partner who can likewise be reached by direct phone line and direct email

Schwab also puts their fax number on their Contact Us page: https://client.schwab.com/Service/Conta ... chwab.aspx. So it looks like fax is also an option!
I have well over 250K and I was not aware of the dedicated consultants. How do you find out if you do and who you have assigned?
Last edited by Nthomas on Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
Whakamole
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by Whakamole »

nisiprius wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:55 am What do Vanguard's competitors current provide for email-like text messaging?
On the "contact us" page (https://www.fidelity.com/customer-service/contact-us) there's a link to "secure email" (https://digital.fidelity.com/ftgw/digital/secureemail).
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DividendMickey
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by DividendMickey »

galawdawg wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 8:55 am
nisiprius wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:55 am What do Vanguard's competitors current provide for email-like text messaging?
Schwab has secure messaging for all customers. You can send messages and/or upload documents. In fact, for the very few instances where Schwab requires a form (POA and taxable account beneficiary designation are the two I know of), they encourage the customer to simply upload the completed form, rather than mailing it. I did that with a POA and then on a second occasion with the taxable beneficiary designation. Each time, the form was processed in a matter of a few hours and the change/update noted in the account immediately thereafter.

As I noted upthread, all Schwab customers have these options:

1. Schwab customer service by phone 24/7
2. Schwab customer service by live chat, M-F 9am-9pm (some report that it may now be available 24/7)
3. Schwab customer service by secure message
4. Schwab branch office locations for in-person visits

And for those Schwab customers with $250k or more at Schwab, they also have:

5. A dedicated senior financial consultant who can be reached by direct phone line and direct email, as well as
6. A financial consultant partner who can likewise be reached by direct phone line and direct email

Schwab also puts their fax number on their Contact Us page: https://client.schwab.com/Service/Conta ... chwab.aspx. So it looks like fax is also an option!
This information is making me think I should open a Schwab account now. I opened a Fidelity brokerage account the other day because I have Netbenefits (so once I transfer the VG funds then all in 1 place, right?), but I cannot abide by lack of communication when it comes to my money. I can deal with many other things but that is a non-starter. BTW, I have yet to have a reply from either Fidelity or Vanguard to my secure messages from Friday and yesterday, respectively.

Of course, opening a Schwab account flies in the face of wanting to keep things simple. It's the opposite of what I have tried to do over the years, but I see others have done it so I may bite that bullet now.
Lynette
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by Lynette »

I have accounts at Fidelity and Vanguard. I am not willing to change as I do not want to potentially lose the history. I have never used the message center at either place. I usually do QCDs at the beginning of the year and both Fidelity and Vanguard were useful in helping me. I have two Fidelity offices close to me. Once I went to the Fidelity office and probably got a new rep. She called the Fidelity specialists to answer my question so I decided that I had no need of a dedicated office. I seem to have a dedicated rep with Fidelity even though I do not have 1 m with them. I received a call recently asking if I needed any assistance. I said I had my financial accounts settled so that ended the call. (Thank you Bogleheads).

I logged onto Vanguard and received the popup that Vanguard was removing the message center. At the bottom of the message, I found this:

Vanguard is committed to improving your experience on our website and mobile app. If you're interested in helping us pilot new digital experiences, please register using the link below.

I clicked on it and received the message that Vanguard would get back to me when they required assistance for testing!

So I am not making any change. I am staying with Vanguard and Fidelity.
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Bluce
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by Bluce »

Tubes wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:21 pm The bad news keeps coming. So now I find out on this thread that Consumer Cellular service has gone down the drain too? Seriously? I switched to them 2 years ago and was totally impressed by their service. I'm not a senior, I'm a bit techy, but I couldn't get all the stuff configured right on my unlocked Moto (APN esoteric stuff, SMS settings, etc.) Their service did not treat my like grandpa. He immediately understood my tech level and we got the phone configured in a few minutes. Just super fantastic service.

Now people are saying that's gone too? :(

BTW, I'm one of those Flagship people who lost their rep and get directed to a "team" instead. The mystery algorithm is at work.
Yes, someone posted that CC was a problem after I was praising them. I honestly don't know, although I think I did call them a few months ago and did not have any problem.

And the cell company that the poster said was the new good one I could not find via Googling.

FWIW: About a month ago I called Schwab about some technical thing that the (extremely polite) first person could not answer. She switched me to a broker (almost zero wait time) who helped me.

When we finished I went on to tell them what a pleasure it was to deal with them (been with them since 1997), in a world with ridiculous wait times to get to a human being, and then maybe getting one that can actually help you, etc. The very polite, humble guy said that answering phones was a very high priority to Schwab and that they would hire as many operators as necessary to keep their clients happy.

FWIW, for those starting out: Schwab has a lot of their own funds. You can buy into their MFs for $1.00 minimum (SWTSX, total market index, .03% ER). For their ETFs, you can start out with one share. No fees on either.
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Whakamole
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by Whakamole »

On Vanguard's IT issues; I converted my mutual fund shares to ETFs, and had exported the cost basis from Vanguard to ensure that they didn't screw up. (Of course I have my own records but wanted to triple check.)

Vanguard had the wrong cost basis for my mutual funds... shares bought over a period of months had exactly the same share price :oops:
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galawdawg
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by galawdawg »

Nthomas wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:09 am I have well over 250K and I was not aware of the dedicated consultants. How do you find out if you do and who you have assigned?
Contact Schwab. They may let you choose one from your local office or they may assign one.

Find a Consultant: https://client.schwab.com/public/consultant/find

(And a correction, I should have said dedicated consultant in my post above, not dedicated senior consultant.)
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starboi
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by starboi »

Whakamole wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:44 am On Vanguard's IT issues; I converted my mutual fund shares to ETFs, and had exported the cost basis from Vanguard to ensure that they didn't screw up. (Of course I have my own records but wanted to triple check.)

Vanguard had the wrong cost basis for my mutual funds... shares bought over a period of months had exactly the same share price :oops:
Was it wrong, or were they using average cost?
Whakamole
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by Whakamole »

starboi wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:06 am
Whakamole wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:44 am On Vanguard's IT issues; I converted my mutual fund shares to ETFs, and had exported the cost basis from Vanguard to ensure that they didn't screw up. (Of course I have my own records but wanted to triple check.)

Vanguard had the wrong cost basis for my mutual funds... shares bought over a period of months had exactly the same share price :oops:
Was it wrong, or were they using average cost?
They were using average cost, though I use SpecID on everything - especially international funds because they've been a source of TLH for years :oops: Maybe that glitch was fixed when everything was converted to ETF shares, which is fine by me. Anyway, problem solved.

(though now I'm considering Schwab with all the good things said about them, but that's another matter)
DividendMickey
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by DividendMickey »

barefootjan wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:41 pm Oh geez. So it’s a money thing? Why couldn’t they just say that, for crying out loud?

Unreal.

Well, something else occurred to me when I read that they’re “testing” this out or whatever: My husband and I own admiral shares of Wellesley, Balanced fund, and Short term investment grade bond. I can’t help wondering how many of the people who are losing the secure message service are not just Voyager customers, but Voyager customers who are heavily invested in funds that can’t be purchased elsewhere?

I mean, why all behind the scenes the cloak and dagger stuff? :annoyed

I think that’s what I hate the most, that they didn’t even have the decency to explain their reasoning for the change and give us more advance notice so we could get started exploring our options (or maybe that was the point? trap us for a while and hope we “get over it”?)

Google announces changes to their fee structure and features months in advance. All of our utility and credit card companies manage to give advance notice. Even my budget cell phone company, Page Plus, gave more than ample notice of impending changes - and the reason for the changes as well.

Argh. I want to make a thoughtful decision about what’s in our best long term interests. but as someone else mentioned, we entrusted Vanguard with our life’s savings. This isn’t some kind of game to us. I’m not sure how I can overlook the underhanded way they’re doing this. And I’m not sure I should.

The whole thing just sucks.
FWIW, I just confirmed with Fidelity that they will not take Admiral shares of Wellesley (VWAIX). The "rule" seems to be that if the ticker symbol does not appear in the Fidelity website they will not take it.
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jeffyscott
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by jeffyscott »

Nthomas wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:09 am
nisiprius wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:55 am
And for those Schwab customers with $250k or more at Schwab, they also have:

5. A dedicated senior financial consultant who can be reached by direct phone line and direct email, as well as
6. A financial consultant partner who can likewise be reached by direct phone line and direct email

Schwab also puts their fax number on their Contact Us page: https://client.schwab.com/Service/Conta ... chwab.aspx. So it looks like fax is also an option!
I have well over 250K and I was not aware of the dedicated consultants. How do you find out if you do and who you have assigned?
When logged on, click on "service" and then choose "contact us". The first tab shows your financial consultant, with email address, and phone number, along with an email form that can be used to contact the person as well.

If you don't have one, there is another tab for "find a consultant".
DividendMickey
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by DividendMickey »

DividendMickey wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:30 am
barefootjan wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:41 pm Oh geez. So it’s a money thing? Why couldn’t they just say that, for crying out loud?

Unreal.

Well, something else occurred to me when I read that they’re “testing” this out or whatever: My husband and I own admiral shares of Wellesley, Balanced fund, and Short term investment grade bond. I can’t help wondering how many of the people who are losing the secure message service are not just Voyager customers, but Voyager customers who are heavily invested in funds that can’t be purchased elsewhere?

I mean, why all behind the scenes the cloak and dagger stuff? :annoyed

I think that’s what I hate the most, that they didn’t even have the decency to explain their reasoning for the change and give us more advance notice so we could get started exploring our options (or maybe that was the point? trap us for a while and hope we “get over it”?)

Google announces changes to their fee structure and features months in advance. All of our utility and credit card companies manage to give advance notice. Even my budget cell phone company, Page Plus, gave more than ample notice of impending changes - and the reason for the changes as well.

Argh. I want to make a thoughtful decision about what’s in our best long term interests. but as someone else mentioned, we entrusted Vanguard with our life’s savings. This isn’t some kind of game to us. I’m not sure how I can overlook the underhanded way they’re doing this. And I’m not sure I should.

The whole thing just sucks.
FWIW, I just confirmed with Fidelity that they will not take Admiral shares of Wellesley (VWAIX). The "rule" seems to be that if the ticker symbol does not appear in the Fidelity website they will not take it.
Well, I just received a reply to my secure message to Fidelity from yesterday about this topic (the above info. was gleaned via chat this AM).

"Dear XXXXXX:

Thank you for contacting Fidelity Investments in regard to a Transfer of Assets (TOA). As a part of your service team, I am happy to offer my support.

I can confirm that the VANGUARD WELLESLEY INCOME ADMIRAL (VWIAX) fund is eligible to be held at Fidelity; however, additional shares may not be purchased here...."


It makes me more than a bit uncomfortable that Fidelity cannot give a consistent answer to a pretty basic question. I specifically asked the chat person the same thing, and now we have different answers. Maybe Schwab knows.
bondsr4me
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by bondsr4me »

DividendMickey wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 1:42 pm
DividendMickey wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:30 am
barefootjan wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:41 pm Oh geez. So it’s a money thing? Why couldn’t they just say that, for crying out loud?

Unreal.

Well, something else occurred to me when I read that they’re “testing” this out or whatever: My husband and I own admiral shares of Wellesley, Balanced fund, and Short term investment grade bond. I can’t help wondering how many of the people who are losing the secure message service are not just Voyager customers, but Voyager customers who are heavily invested in funds that can’t be purchased elsewhere?

I mean, why all behind the scenes the cloak and dagger stuff? :annoyed

I think that’s what I hate the most, that they didn’t even have the decency to explain their reasoning for the change and give us more advance notice so we could get started exploring our options (or maybe that was the point? trap us for a while and hope we “get over it”?)

Google announces changes to their fee structure and features months in advance. All of our utility and credit card companies manage to give advance notice. Even my budget cell phone company, Page Plus, gave more than ample notice of impending changes - and the reason for the changes as well.

Argh. I want to make a thoughtful decision about what’s in our best long term interests. but as someone else mentioned, we entrusted Vanguard with our life’s savings. This isn’t some kind of game to us. I’m not sure how I can overlook the underhanded way they’re doing this. And I’m not sure I should.

The whole thing just sucks.
FWIW, I just confirmed with Fidelity that they will not take Admiral shares of Wellesley (VWAIX). The "rule" seems to be that if the ticker symbol does not appear in the Fidelity website they will not take it.
Well, I just received a reply to my secure message to Fidelity from yesterday about this topic (the above info. was gleaned via chat this AM).

"Dear XXXXXX:

Thank you for contacting Fidelity Investments in regard to a Transfer of Assets (TOA). As a part of your service team, I am happy to offer my support.

I can confirm that the VANGUARD WELLESLEY INCOME ADMIRAL (VWIAX) fund is eligible to be held at Fidelity; however, additional shares may not be purchased here...."


It makes me more than a bit uncomfortable that Fidelity cannot give a consistent answer to a pretty basic question. I specifically asked the chat person the same thing, and now we have different answers. Maybe Schwab knows.
I received the same reply from Schwab; VWIAX is eligible to be held at Schwab but additional shares may not be purchased....only institutional purchases can be done.
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ResearchMed
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by ResearchMed »

DividendMickey wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 1:42 pm
[From Fidelity]
"...I can confirm that the VANGUARD WELLESLEY INCOME ADMIRAL (VWIAX) fund is eligible to be held at Fidelity; however, additional shares may not be purchased here...."
This reminds me that when our 403b plan was moved from Vanguard to TIAA last year, we were told that certain Vanguard funds (and a few other fund families) could be transferred, but we would not be able to buy more. We were also told that one fund couldn't be transerred in kind, and would be liquidated.

The fund-to-be-liquidated transferred in kind.
For that fund, and the Vanguard funds identifief as "cannot buy more"? I tried buying more (no cost to purchsse) and was successful for each.

:confused

Sure, I prefer it this way, but still...!

RM
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Doc
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by Doc »

VWIAX ???

Just move to Fido or Schwab and pick a pair of high yield bond and high dividend yielding equity funds to replace it.
A scientist looks for THE answer to a problem, an engineer looks for AN answer and lawyers ONLY have opinions. Investing is not a science.
nalor511
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by nalor511 »

Whakamole wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:20 am
starboi wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:06 am
Whakamole wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:44 am On Vanguard's IT issues; I converted my mutual fund shares to ETFs, and had exported the cost basis from Vanguard to ensure that they didn't screw up. (Of course I have my own records but wanted to triple check.)

Vanguard had the wrong cost basis for my mutual funds... shares bought over a period of months had exactly the same share price :oops:
Was it wrong, or were they using average cost?
They were using average cost, though I use SpecID on everything - especially international funds because they've been a source of TLH for years :oops: Maybe that glitch was fixed when everything was converted to ETF shares, which is fine by me. Anyway, problem solved.

(though now I'm considering Schwab with all the good things said about them, but that's another matter)
This happened to me too at VG, confirmed with the rep over the phone that everything was SpecID, did the conversion, the next day the ETFs are there as FIFO. But a quick settings change on my end re-enabled SpecID, and my lots appear to be correct now.
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by csm »

I did not receive the pop-up about the message center going away, so I sent a message to ask. For the record, I have just under $500k in VG, split between four VG index funds. Vanguard's reply to me was:

Thank you for taking the time to contact us. I hope this email finds you
well.

You are not affected by this change. Vanguard is always testing new
experiences and those experiences may vary from client to client. When we
test out changes to our website and client experience, we may do so on a
smaller scale that doesn’t impact all clients at first. We will gradually
introduce these changes to more and more clients as we test and implement
your feedback, which may mean that your experience will differ slightly
from another client’s experience for a short period of time. Please know
that clients have access to our phone service and our easy-to-use Vanguard
Support online.


While waiting for a response, I also reached out to both Fidelity and Schwab about transferring my VG funds in-kind to them. Both confirmed they can complete the transfer in-kind with no fees from their end, and will cover any VG fees to do so.

I was initially tempted to consolidate at Fidelity to simplify and keep all mutual fund investments at a single company. Fidelity is where we have our Roth IRAs, an inherited IRA and the rest of our mutual funds.

But I've been impressed with Schwab's responsiveness, both today as well as when I originally opened the account for the purpose of transferring the proceeds of our house sale abroad. And they have just agreed to match a cash bonus for making the transfer (Fidelity still has not responded to this request). So I'm very tempted to complete the transfer of my VG account to Schwab - it's just a decision between simplifying vs. diversifying.
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by ThereAreNoGurus »

csm wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:44 pm I did not receive the pop-up about the message center going away, so I sent a message to ask. For the record, I have just under $500k in VG, split between four VG index funds. Vanguard's reply to me was:

Thank you for taking the time to contact us. I hope this email finds you
well.

You are not affected by this change. Vanguard is always testing new
experiences and those experiences may vary from client to client. When we
test out changes to our website and client experience, we may do so on a
smaller scale that doesn’t impact all clients at first. We will gradually
introduce these changes to more and more clients as we test and implement
your feedback, which may mean that your experience will differ slightly
from another client’s experience for a short period of time. Please know
that clients have access to our phone service and our easy-to-use Vanguard
Support online.
Whoa! Thx for sharing this.

In the context of what's been transpiring on this thread, that is bizarre to me.

I guess I should contact Vanguard and tell them I don't like ads for PAS appearing on my account holdings screen. We are all potential lab mice to VG these days it seems.
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by retiringwhen »

ThereAreNoGurus wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:48 pm We are all potential lab mice to VG these days it seems.
You are a lab rat running in a maze with constantly changing hidden trap doors and misleading paths on 99% of the websites you visit today, except maybe Bogleheads.org.

You are being categorized, analyzed, sliced, diced, directed, detected and neglected with every mouse movement and button click. Trust me, Fidelity, Schwab, Robinhood, Merrill Edge, maybe even lowly old UBS track all of your behavior looking for ways to monetize their insights and encourage you to part with ways with some of your hard earned money. Some are so accomplished, you'll even feel good about it.

Behavioral Psychology is a tool mostly employed to lead consumers around by the nose. See Rolling Stones, (I Can't Get No) Satisfaction for early evidence...

In fact, I would go so far as to say that Vanguard's primary failure is in execution. They are clumsy naifs, letting us see too much behind the curtain.
Last edited by retiringwhen on Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by ThereAreNoGurus »

retiringwhen wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:23 pm
ThereAreNoGurus wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:48 pm We are all potential lab mice to VG these days it seems.
You are being categorized, analyzed, sliced, diced, directed, detected and neglected with every mouse movement and button click.
...
In fact, I would go so far as to say that Vanguard's primary failure is in execution. They are clumsy naifs, letting us see too much behind the curtain.
Yep, I'm well aware of the tracking, etc., etc., that occurs. As you say it's the execution at VG that bothers me.
Trade the news and you will lose.
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by devopscoder »

My plan is to wait until Vanguard rolls out their new app/website before deciding if I'll move my wife's account to Schwab or some other company. I do also use Fidelity/ETrade but for some reason, I like to keep my wife's money in a separate account.
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by sergeant »

sergeant wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:06 pm All these comments about status levels made me go and check. I have well over 2 million with Vanguard and went over a million five years ago. They still have me at Voyager Select. I sent them a message asking for clarification.

I have not received notification about them removing the message center.
I just received an email from Vanguard. They're upgrading my account to Flagship.
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by Cheez-It Guy »

sergeant wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:09 pm
sergeant wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:06 pm All these comments about status levels made me go and check. I have well over 2 million with Vanguard and went over a million five years ago. They still have me at Voyager Select. I sent them a message asking for clarification.

I have not received notification about them removing the message center.
I just received an email from Vanguard. They're upgrading my account to Flagship.
ANOTHER satisfied customer!
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Re: VG Removing Message Center

Post by ram »

Da5id wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:41 pm As another point, I have Flagship and didn't see such a message.
Looks like they are monitoring this forum and read the recent thread that Flagship status gives you nothing.

From now looks like Flagship status gives you ability to secure message. :happy
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Re: VG Removing Message Center

Post by anon_investor »

ram wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 12:24 am
Da5id wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:41 pm As another point, I have Flagship and didn't see such a message.
Looks like they are monitoring this forum and read the recent thread that Flagship status gives you nothing.

From now looks like Flagship status gives you ability to secure message. :happy
Great job, drive away people before they become Flagship.
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by LadyGeek »

That's closer to what I was thinking. It's a marketing feature to give you a perceived added benefit if you invest with them. Regardless if I'm Flagship, the very idea that they would even consider giving you secure communications based on your level of investment tells me quite a bit about their (lack of) concern for their customers.

From a conceptual software perspective, their implementation could be something like this:

Code: Select all

secure_messages = false;
if (status >= StatusFlasghip)
 secure_messages = true;
I'm thinking about this change:

Code: Select all

isCustomer = false;
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by Tubes »

LadyGeek wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 8:00 am ^^^ Good point.

I agree that Fidelity is not perfect, either. Although I'm very impressed with their website, that's not the full picture. Related to my small inheritance (posted here), was a very lengthy resolution of an estate trust. Nothing was contested, it was just complicated and took 2 years to resolve.

Once that was done, it was passed off to a Fidelity person to handle distribution of the trust funds. Without going into details, it was handled by an inexperienced person working remotely. My impression was that Fidelity is short on staff and this is the person who got to handle it. He didn't understand what was going on and frequently asked his coworkers for guidance. After many months of back-and-forth, the funds were distributed last week.

I got this information from the relative handling the trust distribution. She was contacting them once a week with an hour+ phone call each time. Forms were received, signed, and returned many times. I don't have the details (nor do I want to get involved), but there were some misunderstandings. From her perspective, the Fidelity rep didn't understand what she was trying to do and took a very long time to straighten out.

When I was notified about the trust distribution a few months ago, I called Fidelity to setup an account to receive the funds. Excellent phone support. I gave them a reference number for the case and they were on it. I actually had 2 reps on the line. It turns out all I needed was a brokerage account and the rep walked me through the online setup process. Easy for me, since I knew what to do. Even easier with the Fidelity rep telling me how to setup the account in real time.

So, I'm happy with Fidelity's level of support for what I wanted to do. I think the relative had a perfect storm of a complex trust situation with an inexperienced person because they were short on staff (conjecture, but this is my best guess on this situation).
This is really interesting, LadyGeek. I mentioned I have friends who work there. One has a spouse who works in customer service specializing in a department handling issues similar to trust issues. My friend was complaining to me that the spouse comes home and complains too much about the stress of the job. The spouse is in management and feels there are too many tough cases they have to clean up from the rotating new staff. So they were complaining to me about having dinner ruined by the spouse complaining. :)

To me, it just seemed like life. We all complain at the dinner table. Jobs are hard. Some of this stuff is really hard. To be the best customer agent, you literally have to both be a lawyer and CFP. But no lawyer/CFP I know would work customer service. They work in an estate law practice where they can create billable hour$. So it takes time to get new staff up to speed with experience.

My point is that Fidelity isn't perfect. You may get different answers from different agents. You may have to persist and they may have to have a meeting or write up an internal ticket to resolve it, which takes time. I do know there are real people behind the calls that really, really care, and it causes them real stress because they want and need to get it right. Working there also requires a bit of sacrifice. To work there in many jobs, you literally have to expose your entire financial life and rearrange that life in order to comply with both the law and their own rules.

Right now, with the new management at Vanguard, I'm not sure if they care, and that's what is bothering me about this whole shift to PAS and reduction of services. It comes off as being really cold.
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by HanSolo »

Tubes wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:33 am My point is that Fidelity isn't perfect. You may get different answers from different agents. You may have to persist and they may have to have a meeting or write up an internal ticket to resolve it, which takes time. I do know there are real people behind the calls that really, really care,
Well, it's good to know the above happens anywhere. Not to go off-topic, but... if someone said the same about Citi, I'd probably fall out of my chair!
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by LadyGeek »

Tubes wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:33 am This is really interesting, LadyGeek...
Yes, you understand the context of what I was trying to explain. Mixing a complicated trust with investments is no easy feat. The relative who informed me of the status expressed a great amount of frustration trying to get her points across to this guy. Bear in mind my relative is not a lawyer - but she was working with one. Doing this over the phone makes it all that much more difficult.

She has the demeanor to act civilly over the phone, but vented her frustrations on me. She tried elevating her concerns to a higher level at Fidelity, but they said it would have taken longer for someone else to start from scratch and it was easier to just let this guy finish the distributions. (At least that's what I remember from my conversation with her.)

Regarding Vanguard, the intrusive Personal Advisor Service ads when I login to my account are starting to annoy me even more.
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by zaplunken »

LadyGeek wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:01 am
Tubes wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:33 am This is really interesting, LadyGeek...
Yes, you understand the context of what I was trying to explain. Mixing a complicated trust with investments is no easy feat. The relative who informed me of the status expressed a great amount of frustration trying to get her points across to this guy. Bear in mind my relative is not a lawyer - but she was working with one. Doing this over the phone makes it all that much more difficult.

She has the demeanor to act civilly over the phone, but vented her frustrations on me. She tried elevating her concerns to a higher level at Fidelity, but they said it would have taken longer for someone else to start from scratch and it was easier to just let this guy finish the distributions. (At least that's what I remember from my conversation with her.)

Regarding Vanguard, the intrusive Personal Advisor Service ads when I login to my account are starting to annoy me even more.
Do you folks who are seeing the PAS stuff use an ad blocker? I don't think I ever saw anything about PAS and I go to the site at least 2 times per month to check my AA and several other times to just look at a nav or SEC yield.
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by galawdawg »

zaplunken wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:05 am
LadyGeek wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:01 am
Tubes wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:33 am This is really interesting, LadyGeek...
Yes, you understand the context of what I was trying to explain. Mixing a complicated trust with investments is no easy feat. The relative who informed me of the status expressed a great amount of frustration trying to get her points across to this guy. Bear in mind my relative is not a lawyer - but she was working with one. Doing this over the phone makes it all that much more difficult.

She has the demeanor to act civilly over the phone, but vented her frustrations on me. She tried elevating her concerns to a higher level at Fidelity, but they said it would have taken longer for someone else to start from scratch and it was easier to just let this guy finish the distributions. (At least that's what I remember from my conversation with her.)

Regarding Vanguard, the intrusive Personal Advisor Service ads when I login to my account are starting to annoy me even more.
Do you folks who are seeing the PAS stuff use an ad blocker? I don't think I ever saw anything about PAS and I go to the site at least 2 times per month to check my AA and several other times to just look at a nav or SEC yield.
Yes, but the VPAS "pop-up" was not prevented by the pop-up blocker. When Vanguard started pushing VPAS aggressively a few years ago, every time I logged in I was confronted by a Vanguard PAS popup and a large Vanguard PAS banner ad. In order to do anything on the website, even see my holdings, I had to first click "X" to close the pop-up (and I have a very good pop-up blocker installed) and then I had to scroll down below the ad.

Image

I contacted Vanguard by secure message several times asking them NOT to solicit us for PAS and to remove the pop-up and banner ad. I received confirmation we were "opted-out" of marketing, yet the PAS emails continued, sometimes two a week. And while they apologized for the "inconvenience during the transition" they never removed the pop-up or banner ad between my complaints and when we finally transferred our entire portfolio out several months later.
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by devopscoder »

sergeant wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:06 pm All these comments about status levels made me go and check. I have well over 2 million with Vanguard and went over a million five years ago. They still have me at Voyager Select. I sent them a message asking for clarification.
How does one see the level they're at? My wife's account is ~$500K so I know she's not flagship but I'm curious to see if it shows Voyager Select or whatever in the GUI somewhere.
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by Da5id »

LadyGeek wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:01 am Regarding Vanguard, the intrusive Personal Advisor Service ads when I login to my account are starting to annoy me even more.
Through whatever combo of adblock, popup block, and notifications being off, I don't see these thankfully.

This kind of issue is a problem with Vanguard degrading goodwill with things like the messaging change. If you have a high opinion of the company and its direction, little things like the ads, or the somewhat aged web site, probably will bother you less. Once your opinion of them drops, little things start to add up to bother you more.
Last edited by Da5id on Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by lazynovice »

devopscoder wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:15 am
sergeant wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:06 pm All these comments about status levels made me go and check. I have well over 2 million with Vanguard and went over a million five years ago. They still have me at Voyager Select. I sent them a message asking for clarification.
How does one see the level they're at? My wife's account is ~$500K so I know she's not flagship but I'm curious to see if it shows Voyager Select or whatever in the GUI somewhere.
My Voyager Select showed up at the top left. You may also want to look at a statement somewhere.
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by nisiprius »

"Of course, the whole point of a Doomsday Machine is lost, if you keep it a secret! Why didn't you tell the world, eh?"--Dr. Strangelove

I am not convinced that this is going to be a "Flagship feature."

This is just a mosquito bite--I'm certainly not going to leave Vanguard over it. But it knocks down my perception of their quality of service from A- (like all the big brokerages I've used) down to B (like my local brick-and-mortar bank).

What's troubling about it is that everything about it screams "chaos" and "inattention." I get the feeling of things being hurried and slapdash.

Since the feature (secure messaging) is working now for all Flagship customers (and also everyone else), they can list it now as a Flagship entitlement. They could quietly include it in the table of what you get at each tier.

Why on earth not update the table:

Image

If this is a marketing move to give people a reason to crave Flagship status, there's no obvious reason for doing it with such short notice. And no obvious reason not to say so in the warning message.
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by galawdawg »

Cheez-It Guy wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:16 pm
sergeant wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:09 pm
sergeant wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:06 pm All these comments about status levels made me go and check. I have well over 2 million with Vanguard and went over a million five years ago. They still have me at Voyager Select. I sent them a message asking for clarification.

I have not received notification about them removing the message center.
I just received an email from Vanguard. They're upgrading my account to Flagship.
ANOTHER satisfied customer!
Yep, more awesome customer service from Vanguard! It only took Vanguard five (5) years AND a request by the customer to move him to Flagship where he will finally receive all of the benefits that come with Flagship status, such as a dedicated Flagship representative, an annual financial plan and consultation with a CFP, free TurboTax, and all of the other special benefits that come with attaining Flagship status.

Well, at least he may be able to keep secure messaging....for now. :oops:

But congrats sergeant on reaching that milestone! :sharebeer


Vanguard....we don't care....because we don't have to.™
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by Da5id »

nisiprius wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:23 am This is just a mosquito bite--I'm certainly not going to leave Vanguard over it. But it knocks down my perception of their quality of service from A- (like all the big brokerages I've used) down to B (like my local brick-and-mortar bank).
I guess we each get to make that decision.

But for me, being able to contact them asynchronously for issues that aren't time sensitive is desirable. I prefer that to dealing with them on the phone. For those hard of hearing or perhaps those whose spoken English isn't perfectly fluent, written communications can be important. And besides, their phone hours are also vastly more limited than their competitors, and end at 5 PM Pacific time, which is not at all good for those out west.

Not making me leave Vanguard yet. I'm keeping messaging anyway for now at least. But the ability to reliably contact the place that has the vast majority of my money is actually pretty high on my list of features I require.
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by nisiprius »

I asked the "Support" virtual assistant about flagship benefits. It replied:

Top result: How to send a wire to your bank

1 Should you cash out an employer plan?
2 The Vanguard Charitable Endowment Program (VCEP)
3 Qualified Charitable Distribution (QCD)
4 Use our guided Q&A to help you decide whether an ETF or mutual fund better suits your investing style
5 Get help choosing a Vanguard ETF
6 Will I pay any fees for my rollover?
7 Will I pay any fees for my transfer?
8 Additional information
9 Help opening a form
10 Help with other technical issues
11 How do I close my account?
12 Asset allocation & college savings goals
13 College savings planner
14 College cost projector
15 Roth IRA RMDs
16 Help sending money from a stock or ETF to your bank
17 Help sending money from a bond or CD to your bank
18 How to send money to a bank that has not been authenticated
19 My assets have arrived at Vanguard. Now what?
20 How RMDs are taxed
21 Help sending money from a non-Vanguard mutual fund to your bank
22 Transferring assets from Vanguard to another investment company
23 Helping you, an executor, through the inheritance process
24 How do I convert a Traditional IRA to a Roth IRA?
25 Helping you, a beneficiary, through the inheritance process
26 How do I add a bank for instant authentication?

It takes a long time to click 26 "thumbs down" icons.
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by Tubes »

In reading about LadyGeek's recent inheritance resolution, I was reminded of one of the first times I visited this site around 2014. The short story was I screwed up when my dad passed away. Since I controlled the trust, I stupidly sold his assets after he passed, without telling Vanguard he passed. Dumb mistake. I immediately started think about taxes and step up basis. Uh oh.

I started searching and landed on this forum and discovered the form called "Cost Basis Adjustment for Inherited Shares" from this thread (viewtopic.php?t=143800). I was able to access the forums and study them, read experiences here, and then call VG so we could have a coherent discussion. They were very helpful and I was able to get the basis situation resolved quickly.

So what if that happened today? I would find that BH thread, and then land on a bunch of dead links to Vanguard. If I go to Vanguard to search using multiple terms, I pretty much find nothing. It also seems like many forms are now hidden.

I suppose they were getting goofy forms out of nowhere when they were easily available. But surely they also had people able to do a lot for themselves ahead of time. Now, you have to call for anything, even getting access to many forms that were readily available. Is this helping customer service? To my mind, no. But Vanguard apparently disagrees.

Meanwhile, I type "Fidelity form for step up basis" in Google, and BOOM, right there, first link: https://www.fidelity.com/bin-public/060 ... -Death.pdf Same result on VG ("Vanguard form for step up basis") is just wishy-washy mumbo jumbo from VG, and of course this forum. No link to a forum. One of the top 5 google links is also some shady PDF archive service that has the old form you must fill out online. Yikes!
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by beyou »

nisiprius wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:23 am I am not convinced that this is going to be a "Flagship feature."
Well they messaged me back and stated that it is NOT a Flagship feature and they are considering removing from all clients in the future,
but that "I am not impacted right now". I wrote back that I would take my Flagship account elsewhere if I have to wait on hold on the phone for long periods and have no secure messaging alternative. They of course sent my message off the "management". I think I can hear their laughter in Valley Forge from many miles away, either from those promising management consideration or from management themselves.
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by galawdawg »

nisiprius wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:35 am I asked the "Support" virtual assistant about flagship benefits. It replied:

Top result: How to send a wire to your bank

1 ...
11 How do I close my account?
12 ...

It takes a long time to click 26 "thumbs down" icons.
It's not quite that bad, the relevant result was number 11 on the list. :wink: :D
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Re: VG Removing Message Center [Vanguard]

Post by Da5id »

beyou wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:41 am
nisiprius wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:23 am I am not convinced that this is going to be a "Flagship feature."
Well they messaged me back and stated that it is NOT a Flagship feature and they are considering removing from all clients in the future,
but that "I am not impacted right now". I wrote back that I would take my Flagship account elsewhere if I have to wait on hold on the phone for long periods and have no secure messaging alternative. They of course sent my message off the "management". I think I can hear their laughter in Valley Forge from many miles away, either from those promising management consideration or from management themselves.
My message just indicated that "This would not affect you". Hmm. Perhaps the word "currently" was just left out of my message?
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