Thinking of Dropping Out of International Stock Funds

Discuss all general (i.e. non-personal) investing questions and issues, investing news, and theory.
Marseille07
Posts: 16054
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 12:41 pm

Re: Thinking of Dropping Out of International Stock Funds

Post by Marseille07 »

Da5id wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:07 am
Marseille07 wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:04 am
Da5id wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:33 am I guess you are also all in on the SWAN trump card for rationalizing any investment choices, however illogical. Seems like a bad way to manage a portfolio.
Suggesting it's OK to go from US & ex-US to US only is not rationalizing any investment choices. It's also not illogical. I do not appreciate your nonsensical labeling of what I mentioned.
I wasn't talking about you, only visitor76, and you seemed to be endorsing his SWAN to performance chase rationale. You agreed a few posts above that you had misinterpreted me so?
Since there was misunderstanding, I was NOT endorsing Visitor76's SWAN to performance chase rationale (I said I was talking about the OP). Besides, I clearly said I was talking about a one-time investment change to go from US & ex-US to US-only. Just once. Visitor76 is (potentially) changing every 12 months, which isn't at all what I endorsed.
Da5id
Posts: 5058
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2016 7:20 am

Re: Thinking of Dropping Out of International Stock Funds

Post by Da5id »

Marseille07 wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:11 am
Da5id wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:07 am
Marseille07 wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:04 am
Da5id wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:33 am I guess you are also all in on the SWAN trump card for rationalizing any investment choices, however illogical. Seems like a bad way to manage a portfolio.
Suggesting it's OK to go from US & ex-US to US only is not rationalizing any investment choices. It's also not illogical. I do not appreciate your nonsensical labeling of what I mentioned.
I wasn't talking about you, only visitor76, and you seemed to be endorsing his SWAN to performance chase rationale. You agreed a few posts above that you had misinterpreted me so?
Since there was misunderstanding, I was NOT endorsing Visitor76's SWAN to performance chase rationale (I said I was talking about the OP). Besides, I clearly said I was talking about a one-time investment change to go from US & ex-US to US-only. Just once. Visitor76 is (potentially) changing every 12 months, which isn't at all what I endorsed.
Fine, no offense intended. If you read back to what I was replying to perhaps it will be more clear why I assumed your reply was in the context of my back and forth with visitor76 rather than in a completely different vein.
User avatar
Yesterdaysnews
Posts: 964
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2014 1:25 pm
Location: Sugar Land, TX

Re: Thinking of Dropping Out of International Stock Funds

Post by Yesterdaysnews »

What if there were companies on the moon or Mars? Would the true Boglehead feel compelled to hold a traditional cap weight in other planetary companies?

If hold some INTL but I also believe the US (for now) has some intrinsic advantages such as capitalist tradition, well developed VC industry, solid court/legal system and global reserve currency position that are fairly unique in the world.
Marseille07
Posts: 16054
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 12:41 pm

Re: Thinking of Dropping Out of International Stock Funds

Post by Marseille07 »

Da5id wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:14 am Fine, no offense intended. If you read back to what I was replying to perhaps it will be more clear why I assumed your reply was in the context of my back and forth with visitor76 rather than in a completely different vein.
No problem. And I was partially at fault for misunderstanding too. As noted previously, what Visitor76 is doing is performance chasing in my book as well.
tibbitts
Posts: 23588
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:50 pm

Re: Thinking of Dropping Out of International Stock Funds

Post by tibbitts »

Yesterdaysnews wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:19 am If hold some INTL but I also believe the US (for now) has some intrinsic advantages such as capitalist tradition, well developed VC industry, solid court/legal system and global reserve currency position that are fairly unique in the world.
The problem is that you have to believe that the US has more intrinsic advantages than the consensus of market participants believe.
User avatar
UpsetRaptor
Posts: 1068
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:15 pm

Re: Thinking of Dropping Out of International Stock Funds

Post by UpsetRaptor »

tibbitts wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:35 am
Yesterdaysnews wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:19 am If hold some INTL but I also believe the US (for now) has some intrinsic advantages such as capitalist tradition, well developed VC industry, solid court/legal system and global reserve currency position that are fairly unique in the world.
The problem is that you have to believe that the US has more intrinsic advantages than the consensus of market participants believe.
Do you though? I've posted this question elsewhere and not gotten a satisfying response, though I'm open to one:
Suppose a country called Entrepreneurland has an inherent entrepreneurial advantage over the weighted average of the rest of the global market. Whatever the right theoretical level of all the variables for successful startups to establish and become highly profitable - social, political, availability of capital, access to talent, etc - suppose that Enterpreneurland has them all in better proportions than the rest of the global market. Such that future highly profitable startups/corporations, which don't exist yet and so aren't investable yet, are more likely to be established in Entrepreneurland. Would one not expect Entrepreneurland to outperform the global market index in the future, based on those future highly profitable companies that don't exist yet and so aren't investible yet in the current index?
cj2018
Posts: 205
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:49 pm

Re: Thinking of Dropping Out of International Stock Funds

Post by cj2018 »

Yesterdaysnews wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:19 am What if there were companies on the moon or Mars? Would the true Boglehead feel compelled to hold a traditional cap weight in other planetary companies?

If hold some INTL but I also believe the US (for now) has some intrinsic advantages such as capitalist tradition, well developed VC industry, solid court/legal system and global reserve currency position that are fairly unique in the world.
I’ve used similar analogy before and didn’t get any satisfactory answers.

My concern with Passive Index Investing, as an investment philosophy and mechanism, in ex-US markets is that it is intrinsically flawed and doesn’t meet the critical criteria of the Market Efficient Hypothesis.

The biggest argument from international proponents is that nobody knows nothing and everything is properly priced in by the market!! However, is the so-called Market or invisible hand really the same across every country? Is every possible info really priced in at any point across ex-US market compared to US market?

Again, Im a firm believer in Efficient Market Hypothesis because I was schooled and influenced by Eugene Fama and therefore the Jack Bogle style of Passive Index Investing just made sense to me. However, I’m not convinced such product or way of investing is applicable or as effective as it should be in theory in other markets across the globe as is practiced here in US.

I’m not at all opposed to investing internationally for ordinary retail investors. In fact, I think one should invest in international markets Actively precisely due to its inefficiencies which can be exploited by active investing. However, I’m arguing Passive Index Investing as practiced by Bogleheads is not the best form or vehicle to reap the potential benefits.
Last edited by cj2018 on Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Da5id
Posts: 5058
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2016 7:20 am

Re: Thinking of Dropping Out of International Stock Funds

Post by Da5id »

UpsetRaptor wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:42 am
tibbitts wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:35 am
Yesterdaysnews wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:19 am If hold some INTL but I also believe the US (for now) has some intrinsic advantages such as capitalist tradition, well developed VC industry, solid court/legal system and global reserve currency position that are fairly unique in the world.
The problem is that you have to believe that the US has more intrinsic advantages than the consensus of market participants believe.
Do you though? I've posted this question elsewhere and not gotten a satisfying response, though I'm open to one:
Suppose a country called Entrepreneurland has an inherent entrepreneurial advantage over the weighted average of the rest of the global market. Whatever the right theoretical level of all the variables for successful startups to establish and become highly profitable - social, political, availability of capital, access to talent, etc - suppose that Enterpreneurland has them all in better proportions than the rest of the global market. Such that future highly profitable startups/corporations, which don't exist yet and so aren't investable yet, are more likely to be established in Entrepreneurland. Would one not expect Entrepreneurland to outperform the global market index in the future, based on those future highly profitable companies that don't exist yet and so aren't investible yet in the current index?
Prior to the IPO you'd not be invested in the new companies. Once they are ready to IPO and become investible wouldn't their initial price just be at a multiple that reflects all known information, including the advantages of the host country?

That said, I don't know that the markets w.r.t. US vs International are actually efficient. I invest as if they are pretty efficient, but there may well be factors which limit that.
User avatar
UpsetRaptor
Posts: 1068
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:15 pm

Re: Thinking of Dropping Out of International Stock Funds

Post by UpsetRaptor »

Da5id wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:16 pm
UpsetRaptor wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:42 am
tibbitts wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:35 am
Yesterdaysnews wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:19 am If hold some INTL but I also believe the US (for now) has some intrinsic advantages such as capitalist tradition, well developed VC industry, solid court/legal system and global reserve currency position that are fairly unique in the world.
The problem is that you have to believe that the US has more intrinsic advantages than the consensus of market participants believe.
Do you though? I've posted this question elsewhere and not gotten a satisfying response, though I'm open to one:
Suppose a country called Entrepreneurland has an inherent entrepreneurial advantage over the weighted average of the rest of the global market. Whatever the right theoretical level of all the variables for successful startups to establish and become highly profitable - social, political, availability of capital, access to talent, etc - suppose that Enterpreneurland has them all in better proportions than the rest of the global market. Such that future highly profitable startups/corporations, which don't exist yet and so aren't investable yet, are more likely to be established in Entrepreneurland. Would one not expect Entrepreneurland to outperform the global market index in the future, based on those future highly profitable companies that don't exist yet and so aren't investible yet in the current index?
Prior to the IPO you'd not be invested in the new companies. Once they are ready to IPO and become investible wouldn't their initial price just be at a multiple that reflects all known information, including the advantages of the host country?
Sure, but you're basically confirming the premise - pre-IPO they're not investible, and they don't become investible until IPO. So if future highly profitable companies are more likely to sprout up in Entrepreneurland, that hypothetical information, even if known to all, would not be "priced in" to the current world index because the current world index is designed to be the fair market value of only all currently investible companies.
Nathan Drake
Posts: 6199
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:28 am

Re: Thinking of Dropping Out of International Stock Funds

Post by Nathan Drake »

Yesterdaysnews wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:19 am What if there were companies on the moon or Mars? Would the true Boglehead feel compelled to hold a traditional cap weight in other planetary companies?

If hold some INTL but I also believe the US (for now) has some intrinsic advantages such as capitalist tradition, well developed VC industry, solid court/legal system and global reserve currency position that are fairly unique in the world.
No

Uncle Jack said Martians are lazy with too much political risk and environmental instability
20% VOO | 20% VXUS | 20% AVUV | 20% AVDV | 20% AVES
cj2018
Posts: 205
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:49 pm

Re: Thinking of Dropping Out of International Stock Funds

Post by cj2018 »

UpsetRaptor wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:20 pm
Da5id wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:16 pm
UpsetRaptor wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:42 am
tibbitts wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:35 am
Yesterdaysnews wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:19 am If hold some INTL but I also believe the US (for now) has some intrinsic advantages such as capitalist tradition, well developed VC industry, solid court/legal system and global reserve currency position that are fairly unique in the world.
The problem is that you have to believe that the US has more intrinsic advantages than the consensus of market participants believe.
Do you though? I've posted this question elsewhere and not gotten a satisfying response, though I'm open to one:
Suppose a country called Entrepreneurland has an inherent entrepreneurial advantage over the weighted average of the rest of the global market. Whatever the right theoretical level of all the variables for successful startups to establish and become highly profitable - social, political, availability of capital, access to talent, etc - suppose that Enterpreneurland has them all in better proportions than the rest of the global market. Such that future highly profitable startups/corporations, which don't exist yet and so aren't investable yet, are more likely to be established in Entrepreneurland. Would one not expect Entrepreneurland to outperform the global market index in the future, based on those future highly profitable companies that don't exist yet and so aren't investible yet in the current index?
Prior to the IPO you'd not be invested in the new companies. Once they are ready to IPO and become investible wouldn't their initial price just be at a multiple that reflects all known information, including the advantages of the host country?
Sure, but you're basically confirming the premise - pre-IPO they're not investible, and they don't become investible until IPO. So if future highly profitable companies are more likely to sprout up in Entrepreneurland, that hypothetical information, even if known to all, would not be "priced in" to the current world index because the current world index is designed to be the fair market value of only all currently investible companies.

The problem is that you have to believe that the ex-US reflects the consensus of what market participants believe accurately and efficiently.
Da5id
Posts: 5058
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2016 7:20 am

Re: Thinking of Dropping Out of International Stock Funds

Post by Da5id »

UpsetRaptor wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:20 pm
Da5id wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:16 pm
UpsetRaptor wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:42 am
tibbitts wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:35 am
Yesterdaysnews wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:19 am If hold some INTL but I also believe the US (for now) has some intrinsic advantages such as capitalist tradition, well developed VC industry, solid court/legal system and global reserve currency position that are fairly unique in the world.
The problem is that you have to believe that the US has more intrinsic advantages than the consensus of market participants believe.
Do you though? I've posted this question elsewhere and not gotten a satisfying response, though I'm open to one:
Suppose a country called Entrepreneurland has an inherent entrepreneurial advantage over the weighted average of the rest of the global market. Whatever the right theoretical level of all the variables for successful startups to establish and become highly profitable - social, political, availability of capital, access to talent, etc - suppose that Enterpreneurland has them all in better proportions than the rest of the global market. Such that future highly profitable startups/corporations, which don't exist yet and so aren't investable yet, are more likely to be established in Entrepreneurland. Would one not expect Entrepreneurland to outperform the global market index in the future, based on those future highly profitable companies that don't exist yet and so aren't investible yet in the current index?
Prior to the IPO you'd not be invested in the new companies. Once they are ready to IPO and become investible wouldn't their initial price just be at a multiple that reflects all known information, including the advantages of the host country?
Sure, but you're basically confirming the premise - pre-IPO they're not investible, and they don't become investible until IPO. So if future highly profitable companies are more likely to sprout up in Entrepreneurland, that hypothetical information, even if known to all, would not be "priced in" to the current world index because the current world index is designed to be the fair market value of only all currently investible companies.
I don't think this confirms the premise at all. If stocks in Entrepreneurland are fairly priced for their advantages, and newly IPO'd stocks are likewise fairly priced, in an efficient market seems like the superior projected return should be priced in. So no extra risk adjusted returns. Maybe the markets aren't efficient though.
asif408
Posts: 2613
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:34 am
Location: Florida

Re: Thinking of Dropping Out of International Stock Funds

Post by asif408 »

Yesterdaysnews wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:19 am What if there were companies on the moon or Mars? Would the true Boglehead feel compelled to hold a traditional cap weight in other planetary companies?
Speaking for all "true" Bogleheads, only if there is a martian or lunar USA. And then I certainly wouldn't own the other countries on the moon or Mars because they probably have lousy returns.

I'll check with Marvin the Martian and get back to you.
Walkure
Posts: 1011
Joined: Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:59 pm

Re: Thinking of Dropping Out of International Stock Funds

Post by Walkure »

Nathan Drake wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:20 pm
Yesterdaysnews wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:19 am What if there were companies on the moon or Mars? Would the true Boglehead feel compelled to hold a traditional cap weight in other planetary companies?

If hold some INTL but I also believe the US (for now) has some intrinsic advantages such as capitalist tradition, well developed VC industry, solid court/legal system and global reserve currency position that are fairly unique in the world.
No

Uncle Jack said Martians are lazy with too much political risk and environmental instability
Actually, it will be the opposite. Immigrants have a self-selection bias for industriousness, entrepreneurial spirit, and generally seeking to improve their lot in life. Historically that has favored the US, going forward it may well be Mars/moon. Those who elect to remain earthlings will be the lazy status quo capital preservationists.
User avatar
UpsetRaptor
Posts: 1068
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:15 pm

Re: Thinking of Dropping Out of International Stock Funds

Post by UpsetRaptor »

Da5id wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:26 pm
UpsetRaptor wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:20 pm
Da5id wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:16 pm
UpsetRaptor wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:42 am
tibbitts wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:35 am
The problem is that you have to believe that the US has more intrinsic advantages than the consensus of market participants believe.
Do you though? I've posted this question elsewhere and not gotten a satisfying response, though I'm open to one:
Suppose a country called Entrepreneurland has an inherent entrepreneurial advantage over the weighted average of the rest of the global market. Whatever the right theoretical level of all the variables for successful startups to establish and become highly profitable - social, political, availability of capital, access to talent, etc - suppose that Enterpreneurland has them all in better proportions than the rest of the global market. Such that future highly profitable startups/corporations, which don't exist yet and so aren't investable yet, are more likely to be established in Entrepreneurland. Would one not expect Entrepreneurland to outperform the global market index in the future, based on those future highly profitable companies that don't exist yet and so aren't investible yet in the current index?
Prior to the IPO you'd not be invested in the new companies. Once they are ready to IPO and become investible wouldn't their initial price just be at a multiple that reflects all known information, including the advantages of the host country?
Sure, but you're basically confirming the premise - pre-IPO they're not investible, and they don't become investible until IPO. So if future highly profitable companies are more likely to sprout up in Entrepreneurland, that hypothetical information, even if known to all, would not be "priced in" to the current world index because the current world index is designed to be the fair market value of only all currently investible companies.
I don't think this confirms the premise at all. If stocks in Entrepreneurland are fairly priced for their advantages, and newly IPO'd stocks are likewise fairly priced, in an efficient market seems like the superior projected return should be priced in. So no extra risk adjusted returns. Maybe the markets aren't efficient though.
There's a little conflating of present vs future in your post. So current stocks in Entrepreneurland are fairly priced for their advantages. And today's IPO hit is now priced appropriately. However, future IPOs in upcoming years are not reflected in Entrepreneurland's current world market share, because the world index is designed to be only currently investible companies. So the hypothetical information that future profitable IPOs will sprout in Entrepreneurland, even if known to all, is information that's not "priced in". Or at least, leaves room for Entrepreneurland to outperform the rest of the index without having to assume that anything within is currently mis-priced.
Da5id
Posts: 5058
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2016 7:20 am

Re: Thinking of Dropping Out of International Stock Funds

Post by Da5id »

UpsetRaptor wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:56 pm There's a little conflating of present vs future in your post. So current stocks in Entrepreneurland are fairly priced for their advantages. And today's IPO hit is now priced appropriately. However, future IPOs in upcoming years are not reflected in Entrepreneurland's current world market share, because the world index is designed to be only currently investible companies. So the hypothetical information that future profitable IPOs will sprout in Entrepreneurland, even if known to all, is information that's not "priced in". Or at least, leaves room for Entrepreneurland to outperform the rest of the index without having to assume that anything within is currently mis-priced.
I'm not able to invest in the future though. I don't understand your point, why do things that I can't currently invest in impact my investment choices? When the stocks IPO, are you saying that they are underpriced for their prospective returns? If not, I'm uncertain what you are saying I guess. Or are you not talking about investing at all?
EnjoyIt
Posts: 8244
Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2013 7:06 pm

Re: Thinking of Dropping Out of International Stock Funds

Post by EnjoyIt »

Visitor76 wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:49 am
Da5id wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:34 am
Visitor76 wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:21 am
tibbitts wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 4:54 pm
Visitor76 wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 2:18 pm

Yes, if after a period of time I see a fund begin to perform better I will add it to my portfolio if it meets my long term goals. The type of "performance chasing" that you are describing belongs to traders.
The problem is quantifying "period of time" and "perform better." It has to be something you can create a rule for. Where people get into the most trouble is when they try to invest by "feel." So what are your rules for adding (and dropping) funds?
I do annual evaluations of my portfolio, and if I see that a fund under performed from the previous year I look for a replacement fund with a better performance. If none exist I stick with the original fund.
That sounds like classic performance chasing. Which doesn't seem to work very well. see e.g. https://www.spglobal.com/spdji/en/spiva ... -scorecard. Last years winners have little persistence.
Perhaps, but I sleep better at night with the knowledge there aren't any weak links in my portfolio.
I hate saying it like this, but like many investors, the weakest link is you.
A time to EVALUATE your jitters: | viewtopic.php?p=1139732#p1139732
Visitor76
Posts: 326
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:08 am

Re: Thinking of Dropping Out of International Stock Funds

Post by Visitor76 »

Nathan Drake wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:30 am
Visitor76 wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:23 am
asif408 wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:54 am
Visitor76 wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:21 am
tibbitts wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 4:54 pm
The problem is quantifying "period of time" and "perform better." It has to be something you can create a rule for. Where people get into the most trouble is when they try to invest by "feel." So what are your rules for adding (and dropping) funds?
I do annual evaluations of my portfolio, and if I see that a fund under performed from the previous year I look for a replacement fund with a better performance. If none exist I stick with the original fund.
I do triennial evaluations of my portfolio, and if I see that a fund underperformed I add more to it. For the funds that have outperformed I sell off some. I sleep great at night knowing I own more of the losers and less of the winners.
Yes, but how long do you keep throwing money into the losers?
Is a 4-5 % real return for VTIAX a loser?

Have you dissected VTSAX to find out what the losers are?
A 4-5% return for VTIAX compared to VTSAX IS an under performance. The winners in VTSAX offset the losers. That is why the fund is sitting at 17% YTD.
Wealth is not about having a lot of money; it's about having a lot of options.
User avatar
Mountain Doc
Posts: 408
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:15 pm
Location: Life Elevated

Re: Thinking of Dropping Out of International Stock Funds

Post by Mountain Doc »

UpsetRaptor wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:56 pm There's a little conflating of present vs future in your post. So current stocks in Entrepreneurland are fairly priced for their advantages. And today's IPO hit is now priced appropriately. However, future IPOs in upcoming years are not reflected in Entrepreneurland's current world market share, because the world index is designed to be only currently investible companies. So the hypothetical information that future profitable IPOs will sprout in Entrepreneurland, even if known to all, is information that's not "priced in". Or at least, leaves room for Entrepreneurland to outperform the rest of the index without having to assume that anything within is currently mis-priced.
I think what you are arguing is that Entrepreneurland's global market share can increase relative to the rest of the world without outperformance of its existing stocks, because over time more companies are started there. That is true, but overweighting Entrepreneurland's current stock market does you no good in this scenario. Even if you do so, you don't own any of those future stocks until they begin trading, which will occur at an appropriate company valuation. I think the logical conclusion of your premise would be global market cap weighting (instead of a fixed US/international allocation), which allows your US/international allocation to drift as new companies are created.
Nathan Drake
Posts: 6199
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:28 am

Re: Thinking of Dropping Out of International Stock Funds

Post by Nathan Drake »

Visitor76 wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:06 pm
Nathan Drake wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:30 am
Visitor76 wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:23 am
asif408 wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:54 am
Visitor76 wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:21 am

I do annual evaluations of my portfolio, and if I see that a fund under performed from the previous year I look for a replacement fund with a better performance. If none exist I stick with the original fund.
I do triennial evaluations of my portfolio, and if I see that a fund underperformed I add more to it. For the funds that have outperformed I sell off some. I sleep great at night knowing I own more of the losers and less of the winners.
Yes, but how long do you keep throwing money into the losers?
Is a 4-5 % real return for VTIAX a loser?

Have you dissected VTSAX to find out what the losers are?
A 4-5% return for VTIAX compared to VTSAX IS an under performance. The winners in VTSAX offset the losers. That is why the fund is sitting at 17% YTD.
My SCV fund is sitting at 30% YTD returns.

Why did you decide to invest in the loser VTSAX with only 17%?
20% VOO | 20% VXUS | 20% AVUV | 20% AVDV | 20% AVES
Triple digit golfer
Posts: 10430
Joined: Mon May 18, 2009 5:57 pm

Re: Thinking of Dropping Out of International Stock Funds

Post by Triple digit golfer »

Visitor76 wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:06 pm
Nathan Drake wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:30 am
Visitor76 wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:23 am
asif408 wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:54 am
Visitor76 wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:21 am

I do annual evaluations of my portfolio, and if I see that a fund under performed from the previous year I look for a replacement fund with a better performance. If none exist I stick with the original fund.
I do triennial evaluations of my portfolio, and if I see that a fund underperformed I add more to it. For the funds that have outperformed I sell off some. I sleep great at night knowing I own more of the losers and less of the winners.
Yes, but how long do you keep throwing money into the losers?
Is a 4-5 % real return for VTIAX a loser?

Have you dissected VTSAX to find out what the losers are?
A 4-5% return for VTIAX compared to VTSAX IS an under performance. The winners in VTSAX offset the losers. That is why the fund is sitting at 17% YTD.
What you're doing is highly likely to result in subpar investment returns over just investing in any low cost index fund, whether it's VT, VTI, small caps, whatever.
Visitor76
Posts: 326
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:08 am

Re: Thinking of Dropping Out of International Stock Funds

Post by Visitor76 »

Nathan Drake wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:27 pm
Visitor76 wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:06 pm
Nathan Drake wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:30 am
Visitor76 wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:23 am
asif408 wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:54 am I do triennial evaluations of my portfolio, and if I see that a fund underperformed I add more to it. For the funds that have outperformed I sell off some. I sleep great at night knowing I own more of the losers and less of the winners.
Yes, but how long do you keep throwing money into the losers?
Is a 4-5 % real return for VTIAX a loser?

Have you dissected VTSAX to find out what the losers are?
A 4-5% return for VTIAX compared to VTSAX IS an under performance. The winners in VTSAX offset the losers. That is why the fund is sitting at 17% YTD.
My SCV fund is sitting at 30% YTD returns.

Why did you decide to invest in the loser VTSAX with only 17%?
I wanted to spread my risk with a broad market index fund. I hope your total portfolio doesn't consist of VISVX?
Wealth is not about having a lot of money; it's about having a lot of options.
User avatar
JamalJones
Posts: 247
Joined: Sat May 28, 2016 12:53 pm
Location: Virgo Super Cluster

Re: Thinking of Dropping Out of International Stock Funds

Post by JamalJones »

Robot Monster wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:38 am Yea, another international thread to add to my list!

Articles
Happier at Home
Venturing Abroad

Boglehead Discussions
"Does International investment still make sense?" link
"For those concerned about International Stocks..." link
"How many here follow Bogle's 'no international' theory?" link
"How much international stock? A suggestion." link
"How much to hold in international equities (VTIAX)?" link
"How on earth can overweighting US stock over international stock possibly be considered Boglehead?" link
"The International Cap Weight (and Beyond!) Discussion Thread" link
"International under-performance" link
"Long Suffering VXUS Holder No More" link
"Reasons to invest internationally, or not." link
"US vs Intl Total Stock Market" link
"VTSAX or VTWAX over the next 35 years?" link
"VXUS - Why? [Vanguard Total International Stock ETF]" link
"Why are you invested (mainly) in US stocks when all long term forecasts are in favour of ex-US?" link
"Why international?" link
"Yes, another International vs Domestic Thread" link

And also,
VXUS: A Dollar Hedge, Not A Value Investment link
Why Jack Bogle Doesn't (Didn't) Own Non-US Stocks link
Fidelity on International Markets link
Thinking of Dropping Out of International Stock Funds
link
You neglected this one, mate!: viewtopic.php?t=256423
TSP + Vanguard + Fidelity CMA: 80% equities / 20% bonds | "I don't shine shoes, I don’t tape ankles, I don't cut checks - straight cash homie!!" --R. Moss | Winner 2021 Hedge Fund Contest
Robot Monster
Posts: 4215
Joined: Sun May 05, 2019 11:23 am

Re: Thinking of Dropping Out of International Stock Funds

Post by Robot Monster »

JamalJones wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:50 pm You neglected this one, mate!: viewtopic.php?t=256423
Thank you! Updated my list. link
Nathan Drake
Posts: 6199
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:28 am

Re: Thinking of Dropping Out of International Stock Funds

Post by Nathan Drake »

Visitor76 wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:47 pm
Nathan Drake wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:27 pm
Visitor76 wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:06 pm
Nathan Drake wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:30 am
Visitor76 wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:23 am

Yes, but how long do you keep throwing money into the losers?
Is a 4-5 % real return for VTIAX a loser?

Have you dissected VTSAX to find out what the losers are?
A 4-5% return for VTIAX compared to VTSAX IS an under performance. The winners in VTSAX offset the losers. That is why the fund is sitting at 17% YTD.
My SCV fund is sitting at 30% YTD returns.

Why did you decide to invest in the loser VTSAX with only 17%?
I wanted to spread my risk with a broad market index fund. I hope your total portfolio doesn't consist of VISVX?
I want to spread my risk across a wide range of geographic regions and market risk factors. I hope your portfolio doesn’t only include US LCG?
20% VOO | 20% VXUS | 20% AVUV | 20% AVDV | 20% AVES
Triple digit golfer
Posts: 10430
Joined: Mon May 18, 2009 5:57 pm

Re: Thinking of Dropping Out of International Stock Funds

Post by Triple digit golfer »

Robot Monster wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:54 pm
JamalJones wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:50 pm You neglected this one, mate!: viewtopic.php?t=256423
Thank you! Updated my list. link
Fantastic list. Thank you for your service!
bogledogle87
Posts: 478
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:03 pm

Re: Thinking of Dropping Out of International Stock Funds

Post by bogledogle87 »

Why stop there? Dropping everything except US Mega-Cap Technology would be an extension of the same logic. Imagine the returns you could have had the last 10 years. Would be really nice to lock that in for the next 10 years too.
:sharebeer
VTWAX and chill
Nathan Drake
Posts: 6199
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:28 am

Re: Thinking of Dropping Out of International Stock Funds

Post by Nathan Drake »

bogledogle87 wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:11 pm Why stop there? Dropping everything except US Mega-Cap Technology would be an extension of the same logic. Imagine the returns you could have had the last 10 years. Would be really nice to lock that in for the next 10 years too.
:sharebeer
Yes only big tech hires good workers that aren’t lazy, have no political risks, and have good morals and legislation too. Other industries are the bad companies, why would anyone want them!

Thank you Jack!

:sharebeer
20% VOO | 20% VXUS | 20% AVUV | 20% AVDV | 20% AVES
nigel_ht
Posts: 4742
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:14 am

Re: Thinking of Dropping Out of International Stock Funds

Post by nigel_ht »

Nathan Drake wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:18 pm
bogledogle87 wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:11 pm Why stop there? Dropping everything except US Mega-Cap Technology would be an extension of the same logic. Imagine the returns you could have had the last 10 years. Would be really nice to lock that in for the next 10 years too.
:sharebeer
Yes only big tech hires good workers that aren’t lazy, have no political risks, and have good morals and legislation too. Other industries are the bad companies, why would anyone want them!

Thank you Jack!

:sharebeer
If you don’t like Jack Bogle then there are other forums for you.
User avatar
hisdudeness
Posts: 140
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:26 pm

Re: Thinking of Dropping Out of International Stock Funds

Post by hisdudeness »

nigel_ht wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:52 pm
Nathan Drake wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:18 pm
bogledogle87 wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:11 pm Why stop there? Dropping everything except US Mega-Cap Technology would be an extension of the same logic. Imagine the returns you could have had the last 10 years. Would be really nice to lock that in for the next 10 years too.
:sharebeer
Yes only big tech hires good workers that aren’t lazy, have no political risks, and have good morals and legislation too. Other industries are the bad companies, why would anyone want them!

Thank you Jack!

:sharebeer
If you don’t like Jack Bogle then there are other forums for you.
+1 Amen
omedus82
Posts: 27
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:29 pm

Re: Thinking of Dropping Out of International Stock Funds

Post by omedus82 »

Moving out of international funds because of past performance is performance chasing and confusing strategy with outcome. Diversification matters, and I can't think of a good reason for being 100% US equities unless you don't think you can stick with even a small allocation to international over the long term.
wander
Posts: 4419
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 9:10 am

Re: Thinking of Dropping Out of International Stock Funds

Post by wander »

Op stopped posting on this thread a few days ago. It seems he doesn't need inputs anymore.
GoneOnTilt
Posts: 1841
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2018 4:59 pm

Re: Thinking of Dropping Out of International Stock Funds

Post by GoneOnTilt »

Robot Monster wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:54 pm
JamalJones wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:50 pm You neglected this one, mate!: viewtopic.php?t=256423
Thank you! Updated my list. link
....
Last edited by GoneOnTilt on Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
anon_investor
Posts: 15111
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:43 pm

Re: Thinking of Dropping Out of International Stock Funds

Post by anon_investor »

wander wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:08 pm Op stopped posting on this thread a few days ago. It seems he doesn't need inputs anymore.
Did the OP go 100% US?
Da5id
Posts: 5058
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2016 7:20 am

Re: Thinking of Dropping Out of International Stock Funds

Post by Da5id »

anon_investor wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:10 pm
wander wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:08 pm Op stopped posting on this thread a few days ago. It seems he doesn't need inputs anymore.
Did the OP go 100% US?
He's moved on to bigger and better nebulous topics which never reach a useful resolution, like "public vs private universities"...
Nathan Drake
Posts: 6199
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:28 am

Re: Thinking of Dropping Out of International Stock Funds

Post by Nathan Drake »

nigel_ht wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:52 pm
Nathan Drake wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:18 pm
bogledogle87 wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:11 pm Why stop there? Dropping everything except US Mega-Cap Technology would be an extension of the same logic. Imagine the returns you could have had the last 10 years. Would be really nice to lock that in for the next 10 years too.
:sharebeer
Yes only big tech hires good workers that aren’t lazy, have no political risks, and have good morals and legislation too. Other industries are the bad companies, why would anyone want them!

Thank you Jack!

:sharebeer
If you don’t like Jack Bogle then there are other forums for you.
I’m a huge fan of Jack

I’m not so big on appealing to authority, especially when said authority said he could be wrong on international and to make your own mind up rather than blindly trust him on this issue
20% VOO | 20% VXUS | 20% AVUV | 20% AVDV | 20% AVES
stan1
Posts: 14235
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 4:35 pm

Re: Thinking of Dropping Out of International Stock Funds

Post by stan1 »

Nathan Drake wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:15 pm
nigel_ht wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:52 pm
Nathan Drake wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:18 pm
bogledogle87 wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:11 pm Why stop there? Dropping everything except US Mega-Cap Technology would be an extension of the same logic. Imagine the returns you could have had the last 10 years. Would be really nice to lock that in for the next 10 years too.
:sharebeer
Yes only big tech hires good workers that aren’t lazy, have no political risks, and have good morals and legislation too. Other industries are the bad companies, why would anyone want them!

Thank you Jack!

:sharebeer
If you don’t like Jack Bogle then there are other forums for you.
I’m a huge fan of Jack

I’m not so big on appealing to authority, especially when said authority said he could be wrong on international and to make your own mind up rather than blindly trust him on this issue
Calling out logical fallacies are my favorite parts of these threads, they really make my day.
User avatar
anon_investor
Posts: 15111
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:43 pm

Re: Thinking of Dropping Out of International Stock Funds

Post by anon_investor »

Da5id wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:11 pm
anon_investor wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:10 pm
wander wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:08 pm Op stopped posting on this thread a few days ago. It seems he doesn't need inputs anymore.
Did the OP go 100% US?
He's moved on to bigger and better nebulous topics which never reach a useful resolution, like "public vs private universities"...
Yikes. The answer for all of these debates is the same, nobody will know who was right until a bunch of years later. Hindsight is perfect...
User avatar
anon_investor
Posts: 15111
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:43 pm

Re: Thinking of Dropping Out of International Stock Funds

Post by anon_investor »

GoneOnTilt wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:10 pm
Robot Monster wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:54 pm
JamalJones wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:50 pm You neglected this one, mate!: viewtopic.php?t=256423
Thank you! Updated my list. link
More entertaining than the new international threads are the international thread police who inevitably rear their heads in horrified protest. They're the real hoot. :-)
I can hear the sirens coming...
Da5id
Posts: 5058
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2016 7:20 am

Re: Thinking of Dropping Out of International Stock Funds

Post by Da5id »

GoneOnTilt wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:10 pm
Robot Monster wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:54 pm
JamalJones wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:50 pm You neglected this one, mate!: viewtopic.php?t=256423
Thank you! Updated my list. link
More entertaining than the new international threads are the international thread police who inevitably rear their heads in horrified protest. They're the real hoot. :-)
I think the list is useful, in that the value/information added in new threads is slim at best. It mostly all has been said. Of course that applies to many/most threads on bogleheads, so...
User avatar
ResearchMed
Posts: 16761
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2008 10:25 pm

Re: Thinking of Dropping Out of International Stock Funds

Post by ResearchMed »

Da5id wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:11 pm
anon_investor wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:10 pm
wander wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:08 pm Op stopped posting on this thread a few days ago. It seems he doesn't need inputs anymore.
Did the OP go 100% US?
He's moved on to bigger and better nebulous topics which never reach a useful resolution, like "public vs private universities"...
This!

+1

RM
This signature is a placebo. You are in the control group.
User avatar
UpsetRaptor
Posts: 1068
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:15 pm

Re: Thinking of Dropping Out of International Stock Funds

Post by UpsetRaptor »

Mountain Doc wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:11 pm I think what you are arguing is that Entrepreneurland's global market share can increase relative to the rest of the world without outperformance of its existing stocks, because over time more companies are started there. That is true, but overweighting Entrepreneurland's current stock market does you no good in this scenario. Even if you do so, you don't own any of those future stocks until they begin trading, which will occur at an appropriate company valuation. I think the logical conclusion of your premise would be global market cap weighting (instead of a fixed US/international allocation), which allows your US/international allocation to drift as new companies are created.
That's a good, logical answer, that solves the question. Thanks.
Nathan Drake wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:27 pm My SCV fund is sitting at 30% YTD returns.

Why did you decide to invest in the loser VTSAX with only 17%?
bogledogle87 wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:11 pm Why stop there? Dropping everything except US Mega-Cap Technology would be an extension of the same logic. Imagine the returns you could have had the last 10 years. Would be really nice to lock that in for the next 10 years too.
:sharebeer
If we're discussing logical fallacies, these posts are classic examples of a "slippery slope".
nigel_ht
Posts: 4742
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:14 am

Re: Thinking of Dropping Out of International Stock Funds

Post by nigel_ht »

Nathan Drake wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:15 pm
nigel_ht wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:52 pm
Nathan Drake wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:18 pm
bogledogle87 wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:11 pm Why stop there? Dropping everything except US Mega-Cap Technology would be an extension of the same logic. Imagine the returns you could have had the last 10 years. Would be really nice to lock that in for the next 10 years too.
:sharebeer
Yes only big tech hires good workers that aren’t lazy, have no political risks, and have good morals and legislation too. Other industries are the bad companies, why would anyone want them!

Thank you Jack!

:sharebeer
If you don’t like Jack Bogle then there are other forums for you.
I’m a huge fan of Jack

I’m not so big on appealing to authority, especially when said authority said he could be wrong on international and to make your own mind up rather than blindly trust him on this issue
Few are blindly trusting his opinion on international…they just agree with his assessment. The data for significant exposure to international simply isn’t very compelling for folks in accumulation phase. It ends up as a wash over longer periods.

What you’re doing in these snide comments isn’t calling out appeal to authority but making up stuff he didn’t say.

If folks think proponents of international are being annoying and rude there is a reason why.
selters
Posts: 702
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 8:26 am

Re: Thinking of Dropping Out of International Stock Funds

Post by selters »

MrCheapo wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:17 am . But I'm seriously thinking, why on earth invest in these international funds if they barely beat inflation.

Thoughts?
All US outperformance since WW2 has occurred in the last ten years.
Nathan Drake
Posts: 6199
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:28 am

Re: Thinking of Dropping Out of International Stock Funds

Post by Nathan Drake »

nigel_ht wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:51 pm
Nathan Drake wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:15 pm
nigel_ht wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:52 pm
Nathan Drake wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:18 pm
bogledogle87 wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:11 pm Why stop there? Dropping everything except US Mega-Cap Technology would be an extension of the same logic. Imagine the returns you could have had the last 10 years. Would be really nice to lock that in for the next 10 years too.
:sharebeer
Yes only big tech hires good workers that aren’t lazy, have no political risks, and have good morals and legislation too. Other industries are the bad companies, why would anyone want them!

Thank you Jack!

:sharebeer
If you don’t like Jack Bogle then there are other forums for you.
I’m a huge fan of Jack

I’m not so big on appealing to authority, especially when said authority said he could be wrong on international and to make your own mind up rather than blindly trust him on this issue
Few are blindly trusting his opinion on international…they just agree with his assessment. The data for significant exposure to international simply isn’t very compelling for folks in accumulation phase. It ends up as a wash over longer periods.

What you’re doing in these snide comments isn’t calling out appeal to authority but making up stuff he didn’t say.

If folks think proponents of international are being annoying and rude there is a reason why.
Some agree with his assessment and are honest enough to realize the pitfalls but continue anyway...most just use him as a crutch while bringing up fantastically false narratives and logical fallacies for why they decide to avoid every single country in the world but one.
20% VOO | 20% VXUS | 20% AVUV | 20% AVDV | 20% AVES
Marseille07
Posts: 16054
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 12:41 pm

Re: Thinking of Dropping Out of International Stock Funds

Post by Marseille07 »

Nathan Drake wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:23 pm Some agree with his assessment and are honest enough to realize the pitfalls but continue anyway...most just use him as a crutch while bringing up fantastically false narratives and logical fallacies for why they decide to avoid every single country in the world but one.
What difference does it make if they're both US-only anyway?
User avatar
OohLaLa
Posts: 459
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:26 pm

Re: Thinking of Dropping Out of International Stock Funds

Post by OohLaLa »

Robot Monster wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:38 am Yea, another international thread to add to my list!

Articles
Happier at Home
Venturing Abroad

Boglehead Discussions
[...]
Man, I love the fact that you have an actual list of all the discussions compiled. haha

International threads could probably be marketed as Boglehead bait. Throw the International chum in the water and all the hungry BHs come to the surface.

[OT comment removed by admin LadyGeek]

Seriously, my take since the beginning: if you are younger, just stick to the US of A. If you are older and nearing retirement, I would dump like 20% into Ex-US (or whatever % is sufficient to survive), [OT comment removed by admin LadyGeek].

I commend you for sticking to your principles for so long, OP. I don't know how I could stick with it for 20 years. That return comparison is stomach-churning.
Northern Flicker
Posts: 15288
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:29 am

Re: Thinking of Dropping Out of International Stock Funds

Post by Northern Flicker »

Not much contribution to stomach churn in a diversified portfolio.

https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/bac ... tion3_2=40
User avatar
OohLaLa
Posts: 459
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:26 pm

Re: Thinking of Dropping Out of International Stock Funds

Post by OohLaLa »

Northern Flicker wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 1:28 am Not much contribution to stomach churn in a diversified portfolio.

https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/bac ... tion3_2=40
OP provided 30% VS 250% in his case, so I am no longer sure what period or funds were being compared. That will teach me to trust people on the internet! :mrgreen:
GoneOnTilt
Posts: 1841
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2018 4:59 pm

Re: Thinking of Dropping Out of International Stock Funds

Post by GoneOnTilt »

Da5id wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:36 pm
GoneOnTilt wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:10 pm
Robot Monster wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:54 pm
JamalJones wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:50 pm You neglected this one, mate!: viewtopic.php?t=256423
Thank you! Updated my list. link
More entertaining than the new international threads are the international thread police who inevitably rear their heads in horrified protest. They're the real hoot. :-)
I think the list is useful, in that the value/information added in new threads is slim at best. It mostly all has been said. Of course that applies to many/most threads on bogleheads, so...
My comment was snarky and the value added was nil at best. :-). I did the best I could to delete it.

Actually if the OP were new to the topic and were truly interested in reading more, he would like the list.
Locked