Ric Edelman retiring in the fall

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Cheez-It Guy
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Re: Ric Edelman retiring in the fall

Post by Cheez-It Guy »

1789 wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:10 pm
Cheez-It Guy wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:33 am Thank God we still have Dave Ramsey to guide our investments.
He wont retire until all Americans are out of DEBT :twisted:
Sounds like a lifetime contract.
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Re: Ric Edelman retiring in the fall

Post by Gaston »

I’ll admit I’ve never heard of Ric, but from the posts in this thread he seems to be the antithesis of the Boglehead philosophy.
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Re: Ric Edelman retiring in the fall

Post by rehoman »

nisiprius wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:03 pm In 2009, Ric Edelman said that mutual funds were dinosaurs and that they would be gone in ten years (supplanted by ETFs). At year-end 2020, according to the Investment Company Institute, mutual funds collectively hold four times as much in assets as ETFs do.

In 2011, Ric Edelman said that Vanguard's low expense ratios on index funds were illusory and that Vanguard was (somehow) hiding fees of 1.4% per year. (He didn't explain, and nobody has ever figured out, why Vanguard index funds don't lag their indexes by 1.4%). Allan Roth called him on that and actually got him to issue some kind of non-retraction retraction. Two years later, in 2013, Edelman made the same claim again.
Your point?
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Re: Ric Edelman retiring in the fall

Post by Rudedog »

ALWAYS looked forward to Bruce Williams Show and Bob Brinker Money Talk. RIP Bruce Williams.
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nedsaid
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Re: Ric Edelman retiring in the fall

Post by nedsaid »

rehoman wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:32 pm
nisiprius wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:03 pm In 2009, Ric Edelman said that mutual funds were dinosaurs and that they would be gone in ten years (supplanted by ETFs). At year-end 2020, according to the Investment Company Institute, mutual funds collectively hold four times as much in assets as ETFs do.

In 2011, Ric Edelman said that Vanguard's low expense ratios on index funds were illusory and that Vanguard was (somehow) hiding fees of 1.4% per year. (He didn't explain, and nobody has ever figured out, why Vanguard index funds don't lag their indexes by 1.4%). Allan Roth called him on that and actually got him to issue some kind of non-retraction retraction. Two years later, in 2013, Edelman made the same claim again.
Your point?
Edelman was wrong about mutual funds being dinosaurs and Edelman was wrong about Vanguard hiding fees. Pretty clear to me.
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Re: Ric Edelman retiring in the fall

Post by Ivygirl »

sureshoe wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:03 am
123 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:09 pm The announcement includes the following: "As part of his stepping back from the company, Ric Edelman will also be giving up his weekly radio show, which he has hosted for 29 years. The final edition of The Ric Edelman Show will air during the fall, after which it will be renamed and feature a yet-to-be-identified host, the company stated."

It will be interesting to see who is selected to take over the weekly radio show. It seems to be their primary advertising vehicle so I would think they would have to bring a "name" in, they can't afford to be in the doldrums for a few years while a new talent blossoms.

I wonder who will take up the challenge, and potentially millions in compensation if successful. Will it be someone revered by Bogleheads who goes over to the "dark side"?
I think Dave Ramsay has a better approach. He is bringing in lots of alternative "personalities" and building them up as he fades into the background so there is a bench of talent he can draw from.

The difference is Ramsay is about legacy building, whereas I get the feeling Edelman is about making a buck and didn't I see that he's worth $100M+? So he'll probably be OK.
I'm an admirer of Mr. Ramsey and his methods. But I can't help noting that a "Ramsey personality" is a contradiction in terms unless the person in question actually is Dave Ramsey.

The definition of personality is being oneself.

He's got the right idea, carry on the mission by deepening the bench with younger talent different from himself, but still on message with the program. But they need to be themselves. He needs to allow himself to be disturbed and even rebuked as they explore for themselves what it means to live his program. He needs to let them grow up as themselves and take over. A truly talented person will not stay if they can't be authentic.

Fascinating to watch a stubborn, entrepreneurial, proud person trying to say "let them increase, while I must decrease." It's grace that will save him. He's making a mistake but it will all come right because it's grace that will save him.
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Re: Ric Edelman retiring in the fall

Post by rehoman »

nedsaid wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:53 pm
rehoman wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:32 pm
nisiprius wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:03 pm In 2009, Ric Edelman said that mutual funds were dinosaurs and that they would be gone in ten years (supplanted by ETFs). At year-end 2020, according to the Investment Company Institute, mutual funds collectively hold four times as much in assets as ETFs do.

In 2011, Ric Edelman said that Vanguard's low expense ratios on index funds were illusory and that Vanguard was (somehow) hiding fees of 1.4% per year. (He didn't explain, and nobody has ever figured out, why Vanguard index funds don't lag their indexes by 1.4%). Allan Roth called him on that and actually got him to issue some kind of non-retraction retraction. Two years later, in 2013, Edelman made the same claim again.
Your point?
Edelman was wrong about mutual funds being dinosaurs and Edelman was wrong about Vanguard hiding fees. Pretty clear to me.
Thank you for paraphrasing those two comments. Although no support is provided for either of these two claims, let us assume that Edelman said these things 10+ years ago. What action should Edelman clients take? Should we close our accounts?
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nedsaid
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Re: Ric Edelman retiring in the fall

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rehoman wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:10 am
nedsaid wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:53 pm
rehoman wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:32 pm
nisiprius wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:03 pm In 2009, Ric Edelman said that mutual funds were dinosaurs and that they would be gone in ten years (supplanted by ETFs). At year-end 2020, according to the Investment Company Institute, mutual funds collectively hold four times as much in assets as ETFs do.

In 2011, Ric Edelman said that Vanguard's low expense ratios on index funds were illusory and that Vanguard was (somehow) hiding fees of 1.4% per year. (He didn't explain, and nobody has ever figured out, why Vanguard index funds don't lag their indexes by 1.4%). Allan Roth called him on that and actually got him to issue some kind of non-retraction retraction. Two years later, in 2013, Edelman made the same claim again.
Your point?
Edelman was wrong about mutual funds being dinosaurs and Edelman was wrong about Vanguard hiding fees. Pretty clear to me.
Thank you for paraphrasing those two comments. Although no support is provided for either of these two claims, let us assume that Edelman said these things 10+ years ago. What action should Edelman clients take? Should we close our accounts?
Edelman clients should evaluate how their portfolios have done. They should look back at the reasons for why they went to his firm in the first place and see if those reasons are still valid today. Clients should evaluate the firm itself and its operation after Mr. Edelman retires. One should check to see what alternatives are available. If you are satisfied that you have received value for the costs you have incurred, no reason to do anything really.

The Bogleheads are a do-it-yourself forum so there is some anti-advisor bias here, though there are some among us, including me, who have an advisory relationship. I would have to research Edelman and his firm and what he has been recommending in order to comment further. What I will say is that radio personalities will sometimes say things on the air to generate attention and to differentiate themselves from other radio programs and from other advisors.
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Re: Ric Edelman retiring in the fall

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In the sleazy world of financial radio talk show hosts, I'd say Ric Edelman rates an "OK." I think his general advice is "OK" and generally tends toward low-fee index funds. That part is OK. But he runs an assets under management house, and many times his advice shows it. Their recommended portfolio packages are overly complex, covering many sector-type funds. Why? Because increased complexity keeps you thinking you need to pay those AUM fees.

He universally discourages Roth conversions (would lower AUM). Pay off your mortgage? Discouraged. (would lower AUM). Take the pension annuity instead of the lump sum? Discouraged. (would lower AUM). I am not saying he is dishonest or his firm is dishonest. I don't think they are. But there are conflicts of interest built into this model.

I do listen (sometimes) to the podcast version of his broadcast. Generally, I'm OK with what he says, but other times, I am shaking my head. I can remember him saying, "We want to manage your assets. If you don't want that, we don't want you." And there you go ...

I've never been a customer. Some people need this type of financial management, and if they do provide rebalancing, RMD, tax and estate planning advice, the fees are probably worth it, for many people. Rates an "OK."
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Re: Ric Edelman retiring in the fall

Post by Outer Marker »

tipswatcher wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:40 am But he runs an assets under management house, and many times his advice shows it. Their recommended portfolio packages are overly complex, covering many sector-type funds. Why? Because increased complexity keeps you thinking you need to pay those AUM fees.

He universally discourages Roth conversions (would lower AUM). Pay off your mortgage? Discouraged. (would lower AUM). Take the pension annuity instead of the lump sum? Discouraged. (would lower AUM). I am not saying he is dishonest or his firm is dishonest.
Your analysis is spot on, but I think you are being too charitable. Those practices are sleazy and dishonest, result in unnecessary costs and unnecessary risks, and are designed to produce bigger fees for his firm. I for one won't miss him. He's had a good run of self-promotion off a radio show and some sub-par investment books.
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Re: Ric Edelman retiring in the fall

Post by nisiprius »

nisiprius wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:03 pm In 2009, Ric Edelman said that mutual funds were dinosaurs and that they would be gone in ten years (supplanted by ETFs). At year-end 2020, according to the Investment Company Institute, mutual funds collectively hold four times as much in assets as ETFs do.

In 2011, Ric Edelman said that Vanguard's low expense ratios on index funds were illusory and that Vanguard was (somehow) hiding fees of 1.4% per year. (He didn't explain, and nobody has ever figured out, why Vanguard index funds don't lag their indexes by 1.4%). Allan Roth called him on that and actually got him to issue some kind of non-retraction retraction. Two years later, in 2013, Edelman made the same claim again.
...Although no support is provided for either of these two claims
2011: Ric Edelman accuses Vanguard of hiding fees.
About 21 minutes into his February fifth radio show, Robert from Newport, California, called in and asked whether Vanguard's claim of total expenses of .06% annually is true? Edelman called Vanguard's claim "a little disingenuous," and went on to say that funds have other costs for trading stocks that average 1.4 percent annually. He concluded by telling the caller, "So in addition to the .06 percent, add another 1.4." He has since removed this part from the pod recast.
The other one is harder to track down, but I'll work on it. He has made this claim repeatedly--it is always "in ten years." Here's one from 2014. But, no, it isn't 2024 yet. Ric Edelman: Mutual Funds Obit in Focus
Interviewer: So, should I be working up an obituary on the mutual fund that should be published in five or 10 years?

Edelman: I believe so, yes. I believe that retail mutual funds are dinosaurs and will not exist in 10 years.
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Re: Ric Edelman retiring in the fall

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JakeyLee wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:21 pm I tried to get into Ric’s show. Didn’t take long to realize it was an infomercial for his “services”.

I miss Bob Brinker and Moneytalk. He and the show helped motivate a 20 something year old me decades ago. But I guess even Bob had something to sell.
He did sell a typical waaaaaaaaaay over priced 4 page financial newsletter, but I do miss Bob Brinker sometimes. I would go for quiet Sunday bike rides and listen to Bob's show which had a folksy slow (unbearably slow-- like the old Bob and Ray comedy shows..) style. He did some great interviews with great guests. I think he helped many of us understand the importance of fees and low cost index funds and how special John Bogle and Vanguard were. I think his show ran out of steam at the end, but he helped many like myself to invest for the long term and stay the course. (P.S. or maybe his show is still on..??)Thank You Bob
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Re: Ric Edelman retiring in the fall

Post by Nathan Drake »

Used to listen to Ric’s podcast but it was very repetitive and his non stop talking about exponential technologies got old
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Re: Ric Edelman retiring in the fall

Post by 2cents2 »

I used to listen to him on the radio to/from work.
I had my doubts about some of the advice he gave particularly about mortgages and RIC-E trusts.
But years later--in regards to the RIC-E trusts in particular--gave me the impression that he was just trying to make a buck off of unsuspecting folks.

Here is a link to a past discussion:
viewtopic.php?t=120672
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Re: Ric Edelman retiring in the fall

Post by Ed 2 »

I used to listen Edelman for years , then something happened to him right during COVID disaster, he became a whimper, totally couldn’t listen his scary projections about Covid and what may be next. Further, I never agreed with his accusations regarding “ hidden “ fees at Vanguard and Index funds are the past. Also, he constantly scaremonger regarding future of Roth IRA and congress probably will end it. So, no I won’t miss him , it is time for him off the air for sure.
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Re: Ric Edelman retiring in the fall

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socaldude wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:50 pm ...I would go for quiet Sunday bike rides and listen to Bob's show which had a folksy slow...
+1 As did I. Particularly in the late 80's and into the 90's I would often time my weekend rides for when his show was on. It was an easy listen with a radio. When he was on both Saturday and Sunday I didn't worry if I missed one day.
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Re: Ric Edelman retiring in the fall

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Bob Brinker ... I consider him a personal financial hero. I understand the criticism some people direct at him. But ... On Super Bowl Sunday, 1986, I was driving with my wife to a friend's house to watch the Chicago Bears vs. New England. Bob Brinker was on the air, his first-ever broadcast. We listened through the drive, and I said to my wife, "This guy is good." I became a regular listener, through many nap times on Saturdays and Sundays.

Yes, he had a "Market Timer" newsletter, which was basically worthless, because his almost never made market timing calls. He just promoted low-fee index investing with a conservative slant. He was a huge Vanguard fan. He was the first person who ever mentioned "I Bonds" and "TIPS" within my hearing range, and what great advice that was -- it became a life's obsession for me. He got lucky with his market call before the tech crash, and lucky again with the call on that bottom. But he wasn't perfect, and although some listeners believed he could be perfect, I never bought into that. I just liked his simple, straightforward advice.

Who on the radio now is giving this sort of solid, practical financial information? Hard to find. I'd suggest the "Jill on Money" podcast, with a new episode every day of the week. Jill Schlesinger gives the same sort of solid advice. She should be Bob Brinker's successor, in my opinion.
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Re: Ric Edelman retiring in the fall

Post by nisiprius »

Basically, most of his 2007 book, The Lies About Money seems to be an extended diatribe against mutual funds and praise of ETFs. He says on p. 182 (if the Kindle page numbers are correct)
As ETFs become more widely available and ubiquitous, and as consumders learn more about their advantages, ETFs will eventually surpass mutual funds in size and prominence in the marketplace.
That is certainly a defensible position. So the question is when he began saying "ten years" instead of "eventually."
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Re: Ric Edelman retiring in the fall

Post by pointyhairedboss »

Trying to jog my memory...

I believe a long long time ago, Ric Edelman's firm was compensated through fund commissions. Than at some point he switched to AUM and DFA funds. It was news to me to read that he is now on the ETF bandwagon.

I wish that I could find a pdf of the first version of his first book, The Truth About Money. Written in 1996, it would be interesting to see how well the advice in that book holds up today.
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Re: Ric Edelman retiring in the fall

Post by chipperd »

To bad he's not leaving sooner. I used to listen to Ric when I was younger, but sifting through the infomercial for a couple grains of useful information got tiresome.
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Re: Ric Edelman retiring in the fall

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Bluce wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:20 pm I think he is a jerk and won't miss him a bit. I used to listen to him regularly but got tired of his constant shouting and the hawking of his firm. He's just another in the long list of financial infomercials disguised as radio shows.

I've listened to his bizarre rationalizations probably three times as to why one should purposely hold debt, and it never made any sense to me.

Net worth = assets minus liabilities. My assets are my net worth, I have no debt. Sorry Ricky, I learned from my dad and have no regrets.
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Re: Ric Edelman retiring in the fall

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tipswatcher wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 7:50 pm Bob Brinker ... I consider him a personal financial hero. I understand the criticism some people direct at him. But ... On Super Bowl Sunday, 1986, I was driving with my wife to a friend's house to watch the Chicago Bears vs. New England. Bob Brinker was on the air, his first-ever broadcast. We listened through the drive, and I said to my wife, "This guy is good." I became a regular listener, through many nap times on Saturdays and Sundays.

Yes, he had a "Market Timer" newsletter, which was basically worthless, because his almost never made market timing calls. He just promoted low-fee index investing with a conservative slant. He was a huge Vanguard fan. He was the first person who ever mentioned "I Bonds" and "TIPS" within my hearing range, and what great advice that was -- it became a life's obsession for me. He got lucky with his market call before the tech crash, and lucky again with the call on that bottom. But he wasn't perfect, and although some listeners believed he could be perfect, I never bought into that. I just liked his simple, straightforward advice.

Who on the radio now is giving this sort of solid, practical financial information? Hard to find. I'd suggest the "Jill on Money" podcast, with a new episode every day of the week. Jill Schlesinger gives the same sort of solid advice. She should be Bob Brinker's successor, in my opinion.
I also was an avid listener to Bob Brinker for years and learned a lot from him. He was one of the first that championed index funds. He also turned me on to I-Bonds and TIPS. Bob was the champion of do-it-yourself investing and of no-load mutual funds.
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Re: Ric Edelman retiring in the fall

Post by AussieDad »

I’ve used FE for more than 10 years. The AUM fees are reasonable through my employer, but I don’t believe my returns are very good. I just looked up on my Fido 401k that is managed by FE, and my rate of return from 6/30/2011 to 6/25/2021 is 154.9%.
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Re: Ric Edelman retiring in the fall

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BeachPerson wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:59 pm What will that mean for his firm???
Nothing other than the fact that he won't be working there.

It's a big firm with a lot of employees. He hasn't personally been running things there for a while.
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Re: Ric Edelman retiring in the fall

Post by JoeRetire »

iamblessed wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:45 am
SteadyOne wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:18 pm Health issue possible
I would have not guessed that. This is the guy that said we are going to be living to 100 to 120.
He isn't retiring due to health issues.
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Re: Ric Edelman retiring in the fall

Post by nguy44 »

I read "The Truth About Money" when it first came out, and found it very helpful for me at the time. It was one of the four reading sources that helped me understand personal finance much better at that time (along with Money Magazine, "Master Your Money", and "The Millionaire Next Door").

I enjoyed Ric Edelman's radio shows. It was entertaining, and there was enough in it that made sense. The biggest thing I found helpful was him always urging folks to ignore the short term market swings and think 10, 20, 30 or years in the future, which went against the grain of the media "noise".

My listening declined, primarily due to my knowledge and financial gain, and also when he stopped taking live phone calls. For many of these hosts, once one reaches a certain financial knowledge/attainment level, you do not need them as much, and they serve more as entertainment. But for someone without a clue, his show (along with Dave Ramsey's) are still helpful. Thew key is to not "fall in love" with any one of these (and other) folks, but to "crowd source" their advice and pick out the basic gems that can be found.
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Re: Ric Edelman retiring in the fall

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AussieDad wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 5:40 am I’ve used FE for more than 10 years. The AUM fees are reasonable through my employer, but I don’t believe my returns are very good. I just looked up on my Fido 401k that is managed by FE, and my rate of return from 6/30/2011 to 6/25/2021 is 154.9%.
Maybe my math is wrong but that's a 10 year period divided into 154.9% and that looks like 15.5% average per year, long term S&P 500 is around 10-11%. Your AA, age, need to take risk, they all certainly determine your return.
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Re: Ric Edelman retiring in the fall

Post by Makefile »

zaplunken wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 7:56 am
AussieDad wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 5:40 am I’ve used FE for more than 10 years. The AUM fees are reasonable through my employer, but I don’t believe my returns are very good. I just looked up on my Fido 401k that is managed by FE, and my rate of return from 6/30/2011 to 6/25/2021 is 154.9%.
Maybe my math is wrong but that's a 10 year period divided into 154.9% and that looks like 15.5% average per year, long term S&P 500 is around 10-11%. Your AA, age, need to take risk, they all certainly determine your return.
It's 2.549^0.1 - 1 = 9.8% per year
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Re: Ric Edelman retiring in the fall

Post by zaplunken »

Makefile wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 10:39 am
zaplunken wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 7:56 am
AussieDad wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 5:40 am I’ve used FE for more than 10 years. The AUM fees are reasonable through my employer, but I don’t believe my returns are very good. I just looked up on my Fido 401k that is managed by FE, and my rate of return from 6/30/2011 to 6/25/2021 is 154.9%.
Maybe my math is wrong but that's a 10 year period divided into 154.9% and that looks like 15.5% average per year, long term S&P 500 is around 10-11%. Your AA, age, need to take risk, they all certainly determine your return.
It's 2.549^0.1 - 1 = 9.8% per year
Still pretty close to the long term average of the S&P 500. I'm lost, what's the 2.549?
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Re: Ric Edelman retiring in the fall

Post by Bluce »

zaplunken wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 4:24 pm
Makefile wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 10:39 am
zaplunken wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 7:56 am
AussieDad wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 5:40 am I’ve used FE for more than 10 years. The AUM fees are reasonable through my employer, but I don’t believe my returns are very good. I just looked up on my Fido 401k that is managed by FE, and my rate of return from 6/30/2011 to 6/25/2021 is 154.9%.
Maybe my math is wrong but that's a 10 year period divided into 154.9% and that looks like 15.5% average per year, long term S&P 500 is around 10-11%. Your AA, age, need to take risk, they all certainly determine your return.
It's 2.549^0.1 - 1 = 9.8% per year
Still pretty close to the long term average of the S&P 500. I'm lost, what's the 2.549?
And the "up" arrow?
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Re: Ric Edelman retiring in the fall

Post by Makefile »

Bluce wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 5:25 pm
zaplunken wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 4:24 pm
Makefile wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 10:39 am
zaplunken wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 7:56 am
AussieDad wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 5:40 am I’ve used FE for more than 10 years. The AUM fees are reasonable through my employer, but I don’t believe my returns are very good. I just looked up on my Fido 401k that is managed by FE, and my rate of return from 6/30/2011 to 6/25/2021 is 154.9%.
Maybe my math is wrong but that's a 10 year period divided into 154.9% and that looks like 15.5% average per year, long term S&P 500 is around 10-11%. Your AA, age, need to take risk, they all certainly determine your return.
It's 2.549^0.1 - 1 = 9.8% per year
Still pretty close to the long term average of the S&P 500. I'm lost, what's the 2.549?
And the "up" arrow?
154.9% return means that $1 became $2.549 in 10 years. We want to find the annual return to turn $1 into $2.549 in 10 years.
^0.1 = 10th root or raised to the 1/10th power
Accordingly, if you raise 1.098 to the 10th power, you get (about) 2.549.
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Re: Ric Edelman retiring in the fall

Post by socaldude »

Nathan Drake wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:57 pm Used to listen to Ric’s podcast but it was very repetitive and his non stop talking about exponential technologies got old
Yup....huge ego, huge... Nauseating.
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