Wiki Article help: Approximating Total International

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Brofessor
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Wiki Article help: Approximating Total International

Post by Brofessor »

Hello. Would anyone be willing to update the wiki article section "Approximating total international for TSP I for investors with access to a MSCI EAFE fund?" Or is the wiki article still accurate?

I utilize my employer's 401k which offers a Fidelity fund named Spartan Developed International Index Pool Class E. I utilize this Fidelity fund instead of the wiki articles suggestion of VDVIX. I believe these are both developed market index funds for international.

I can see why the article has not been updated since 2016 because at the bottom of the article there is a lot of explanation and nuance when it comes to approximating total international.

Thanks. Good luck. It is beyond my abilities.

https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Approxi ... ock_market
Last edited by Brofessor on Wed May 12, 2021 8:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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LadyGeek
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Re: Wiki Article help: Approximating Total International

Post by LadyGeek »

This thread is now in the Investing - Theory, News & General forum (general discussion).

We have a dedicated thread, Suggestions for the Wiki, but it's always better to have a dedicated discussion to get additional opinions (and help).

If anyone wants to be a wiki editor, please post in Join the Wiki! or PM me.
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Re: Wiki Article help: Approximating Total International

Post by LadyGeek »

I can follow the theory of the wiki page, but I'm not sure how it can be updated. I'll defer to the experts on this one.

==============================
The Thrift Savings Plan I Fund follows the MSCI EAFE Index (Europe, Australasia, and Far East).

The Spartan ® International Index Pool Class A also follows the same MSCI EAFE index, so they're comparable funds. (I couldn't find a link to Pool Class E, but they should hopefully follow the same index.)

You'd like this information to determine your asset allocations in your 401(k) plan. Let's work this from another approach - what other funds do you have in your 401K) plan?

Once you have a list, the approach would be to put those funds (or something similar) into the Morningstar instant x-ray tool and adjust the allocations until they align with the "Total International" (excluding US) market. You don't need to get this exact; to the nearest 5% is fine.*

* We often recommend asset allocations in steps of 5%. It's a lot more work to use more precision (like 1%) for very little added benefit.
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Ferdinand2014
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Re: Wiki Article help: Approximating Total International

Post by Ferdinand2014 »

Brofessor wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 9:23 am Hello. Would anyone be willing to update the wiki article section "Approximating total international for TSP I for investors with access to a MSCI EAFE fund?" Or is the wiki article still accurate?

I utilize my employer's 401k which offers a Fidelity fund named Spartan Developed International Index Pool Class E. I utilize this Fidelity fund instead of the wiki articles suggestion of VDVIX. I believe these are both developed market index funds for international.

I can see why the article has not been updated since 2016 because at the bottom of the article there is a lot of explanation and nuance when it comes to approximating total international.

Thanks. Good luck. It is beyond my abilities.

https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Approxi ... ock_market
Current market cap weight of developed markets sans U.S. and Canada is about 30% of total world stocks (FSPSX Fidelity fund - MSCI EAFE - which is similar to what you describe above). U.S. is about 57%. Emerging markets are about 11% and Canada is about 2.5%. With that in mind and if you have total U.S. and developed MSCI EAFE as your 2 choices, I would go with 35% MSCI EAFE and 65% U.S. which would be market cap if emerging markets and Canada did not exist.
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Brofessor
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Re: Wiki Article help: Approximating Total International

Post by Brofessor »

Thank you all. User OKWriter updated the page on 5/30/21.
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Re: Wiki Article help: Approximating Total International

Post by Brofessor »

If possible, can someone include an example using an MSCI World ex-US fund? I have an employer with a Fidelity 401k and it uses MSCI World ex-US. I assume the only difference is it includes Canada. So I assume one moves the Canadian fund % mentioned in the bogle wiki to the MSCI World ex-US %.

Thanks again.
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Re: Wiki Article help: Approximating Total International

Post by Ferdinand2014 »

Brofessor wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:10 am If possible, can someone include an example using an MSCI World ex-US fund? I have an employer with a Fidelity 401k and it uses MSCI World ex-US. I assume the only difference is it includes Canada. So I assume one moves the Canadian fund % mentioned in the bogle wiki to the MSCI World ex-US %.

Thanks again.
https://www.msci.com/documents/10199/17 ... fc565ededb

https://www.ishares.com/us/products/239 ... -world-etf

67% US, 33% ex U.S. is the current mix for developed world MSCI index

3.3% Canada in developed world MSCI index
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Re: Wiki Article help: Approximating Total International

Post by okwriter »

Brofessor wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:10 am If possible, can someone include an example using an MSCI World ex-US fund? I have an employer with a Fidelity 401k and it uses MSCI World ex-US.
Are you referring to the MSCI World ex-USA, or MSCI World ex-USA IMI? The wiki has been updated with an example for the IMI version - it's the iShares example in the two-fund table.

(IMI = Investable Market Index, which means it includes large, mid and small-caps. So there's no need for a separate small-cap fund.)
I assume the only difference is it includes Canada. So I assume one moves the Canadian fund % mentioned in the bogle wiki to the MSCI World ex-US %.
I think your rationale makes sense for the non-IMI version of the index. But I wasn't able to find any fund that follows it, so it's difficult to verify.
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Re: Wiki Article help: Approximating Total International

Post by LadyGeek »

Ferdinand2014- Remember my earlier rule-of-thumb:
LadyGeek wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 2:36 pm We often recommend asset allocations in steps of 5%. It's a lot more work to use more precision (like 1%) for very little added benefit.
Just do the best you can, you'll be fine.

Remember that you treat all of your investments together. You can make up the "missing" allocation in other accounts, such as an IRA.
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Re: Wiki Article help: Approximating Total International

Post by Brofessor »

okwriter wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:32 pm
Are you referring to the MSCI World ex-USA, or MSCI World ex-USA IMI? The wiki has been updated with an example for the IMI version - it's the iShares example in the two-fund table.

(IMI = Investable Market Index, which means it includes large, mid and small-caps. So there's no need for a separate small-cap fund.)

I think your rationale makes sense for the non-IMI version of the index. But I wasn't able to find any fund that follows it, so it's difficult to verify.
Wow! Thanks for the quick reply.

My employer is Tenet healthcare and the Fidelity 401k offers SP DEV INTL IDX CL E (Spartan Developed International Index Pool Class E). The benchmark is MSCI World ex US (N). I do not believe this is the IMI version. I think the "(N)" is a regulation or net returns? I believe this Fidelity Fund and its benchmark track Large Cap developed foreign stocks. The iShares 2 fund example on the wiki contains Large, Mid, and Small Cap in the "developed market" fund.

I have a unique situation so I do not expect the wiki to be my own personal advisor. Also, my asset allocation is spread over a Vanguard IRA, Fidelity 401k, and Vanguard taxable. So I will use the wiki example using the EAFE with both iShares Canada and S Korea separate funds. Since my Fidelity Developed International includes Canada and not S Korea, and because you agree with my rationale for the non-IMI version, I will move the 5% Canada fund to the 58% EAFE fund for a total of 63% but substitute my Fidelity Developed International which tracks the MSCI World Ex US.

Thanks again for updating the wiki. :happy
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