I like this budget. I would like to add $20K for travel and another $20K for entertainment.22twain wrote: ↑Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:46 pm We're retired, late 60s / early 70s, in a small town in the South, with a paid-off house.
Last year we spent a total of about $53K, of which:
$8K income tax (fed + state)
$12K donations (charitable + political)
$7K Medicare premiums
$9K housing-related (utilities, property tax, insurance, maintenance)
$3K food (no eating out because of Covid)
$14K everything else (cars, new computers, hobbies, etc.)
If it hadn't been for Covid, we would have spent more for eating out and travel.
Only one of us is collecting Social Security and taking RMDs from tax-deferred accounts. After the other one starts in a few years, our tax bill will probably increase to about $30K.
For those retired or FI, how much do you spend annually?
-
- Posts: 3908
- Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:19 am
Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?
Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?
+1.Silk McCue wrote: ↑Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:50 pm The search bar upper right corner of this page is your friend.
Below is a post from January 2021 with 112 replies.
viewtopic.php?t=335148&start=50
Cheers
OP, you may want to look at Rick Ferri’s post in the above link. He has a lot of data in this area.
It is interesting. Some forum members pay $50k per year in property taxes alone. Others are comfortable living off of social security plus a little from savings. Some people enjoy being frugal. Some people have a taste for fine wine. To each his own! Your goal should be to have some choices in retirement.
Cheers.
“Doing well with money has little to do with how smart you are and a lot to do with how you behave.” - Morgan Housel
-
- Posts: 213
- Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:42 pm
- Location: Italy
Re: For those retired or FI, how much do you spend annually?
Would you mind to post more details about your expenses?kilkoyne wrote: ↑Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:46 pm This is a great topic.
I'm single and an ultra-saver. My calculations for 2020 would have me at $42K spending. I included budgeting for $7K house maintenance and $3K vacation and $2K healthcare. I still have a mortgage and live in a HCOL area. I believe my expenses may go up when I retire with more vacationing but not drastically.
I'm estimating on the high side $50k-$60K/year spending after taxes (in today's dollars) with a mortgage but the mortgage could be gone if I wanted that. I'm so used to saving and living on frugally that I doubt more money would make me any happier.
I'm asking you, but I could ask the same to others, it's just that your post was the most detailed one.
I'm curious because life in US seems to be so expensive from here. I thought it was caused by healthcare insurance, but you wrote you spend only 2K$ per year on that one.
For example:
1) What's the recurring spending per year for your house (owned, excluding morgage)? I mean bills+Home tax.
2) What's for the car? I mean insurance+tax+gas+fines+maintenance
3) Eating? I mean grocery+restaurant+delivered pizza/food
When I study English I am lazier than my portfolio. Feel free to fix my English and investing mistakes.
Re: For those retired or FI, how much do you spend annually?
I can answer but are you asking about CURRENT (while working) expenses or RETIREMENT expenses? There will be a significant reduction, at least for me.InvestInPasta wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:13 amWould you mind to post more details about your expenses?kilkoyne wrote: ↑Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:46 pm This is a great topic.
I'm single and an ultra-saver. My calculations for 2020 would have me at $42K spending. I included budgeting for $7K house maintenance and $3K vacation and $2K healthcare. I still have a mortgage and live in a HCOL area. I believe my expenses may go up when I retire with more vacationing but not drastically.
I'm estimating on the high side $50k-$60K/year spending after taxes (in today's dollars) with a mortgage but the mortgage could be gone if I wanted that. I'm so used to saving and living on frugally that I doubt more money would make me any happier.
I'm asking you, but I could ask the same to others, it's just that your post was the most detailed one.
I'm curious because life in US seems to be so expensive from here. I thought it was caused by healthcare insurance, but you wrote you spend only 2K$ per year on that one.
For example:
1) What's the recurring spending per year for your house (owned, excluding morgage)? I mean bills+Home tax.
2) What's for the car? I mean insurance+tax+gas+fines+maintenance
3) Eating? I mean grocery+restaurant+delivered pizza/food
Also don’t forget high earners tend to spend much more!
-
- Posts: 1145
- Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:32 am
Re: For those retired or FI, how much do you spend annually?
$40K tax on a pension???? How much is the pension $200k?Sandi_k wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 12:23 pmI noted we are planning $150k per year, and we're in NorCal. Once the house is paid off, that's still $12k per year in taxes and insurance. Medical premiums for retirees = $8k annually. Food: $10k annually. Car insurance - $4k annually. Taxes: $40k annually on the pension.SpaceCowboy wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 12:14 am When I read these threads, I just don’t understand how people live on such tight budgets. Granted I live in a HCOL area, SoCal, in a nice suburb, but if I just look at insurance costs (health, house, car, earthquake, umbrella) and property taxes, that adds up to over $40k annually. That’s without food. The biggest discretionary pieces of our budget are travel and restaurants. Taxes are the hardest items to predict, as I do get self-employment income some years. I also don’t include education expenses, which are separately funded from 529s. Our spending tends to be $180-200k annually since retiring 7 years ago. This past Covid year was cheaper, as we stopped eating out largely and only had one significant road trip vacation plus one international trip early in the year.
So we're at $75k annually, and we haven't even covered utilities, gas, or travel.
Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?
This is remarkable. Even the USDA “thrifty plan” adds up to over $4500 a year for a married couple age 51-70. What are the key ways that you keep food costs this low?
-
- Posts: 545
- Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:56 pm
Re: For those retired or FI, how much do you spend annually?
I just reread this entire thread and found it interesting in what it said and did not say. We have been retired for over 19 years I totaled up our spending for that time (from Quicken), and it averaged $90k per year. The devil, as they say, is in the details.....
So here are the major categories...
Housing.................................16.4% Includes repairs, alterations, furniture, garden, HOA fees....etc
Income taxes..........................16.2% Includes significant Roth conversions, no state
Groceries................................9.1
Gifts Given..............................8.9 Includes 529 funding for grandkids
Medical..................................8.2 Includes med insurance
Prop Taxes...............................7.2 Includes a 2nd home
Travel....................................6.8
Util.......................................4.5
Autos.....................................4.1 Includes insurance
Insurance other than auto, med.....3.9
Telephone and Internet...............2.5
Computers..............................1.4
And a bunch of other little stuff for the balance.
I think the most interesting thing that I learned from this exercise was the cost of housing when you consider that the houses are paid for.
So here are the major categories...
Housing.................................16.4% Includes repairs, alterations, furniture, garden, HOA fees....etc
Income taxes..........................16.2% Includes significant Roth conversions, no state
Groceries................................9.1
Gifts Given..............................8.9 Includes 529 funding for grandkids
Medical..................................8.2 Includes med insurance
Prop Taxes...............................7.2 Includes a 2nd home
Travel....................................6.8
Util.......................................4.5
Autos.....................................4.1 Includes insurance
Insurance other than auto, med.....3.9
Telephone and Internet...............2.5
Computers..............................1.4
And a bunch of other little stuff for the balance.
I think the most interesting thing that I learned from this exercise was the cost of housing when you consider that the houses are paid for.
-
- Posts: 490
- Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:43 pm
Re: For those retired or FI, how much do you spend annually?
About 9k. I enjoy things like reading an gardening, so, I guess it comes back to values.MyBrothersAdvisor wrote: ↑Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:14 am Good morning! This is my first post, but I'm a long-time lurker. I'm working through my projections and always get hung up on how much to assume I'll spend annually once I'm done working. What does everybody spend annually in retired not including your mortgage. I always assume $30k in addition to my projected pension which should be about $60k. I'll have health insurance for me and my husband in retirement so that should save us a bit. And I've conservatively assumed we'll have $900k in our investments at age 55 when I retire. We're hoping to travel quite a bit and/or get a second home to enjoy when our kids have kids and pass down to them once we're gone.
I guess my main question is: Does anybody spend significantly more than $90k/year in retirement? OR, maybe you don't but you see some giant holes in my projections and how I'm hoping our retirement will play out. We've got a number of years (more than 15, but less than 20) to correct things if it isn't going to work. I'd love to get a jump on it now!
Re: For those retired or FI, how much do you spend annually?
Assume you mean “what you value” and not your values. I also value reading and gardening but spend way more that $9k and none of those things are related to my personal values.Somethingwitty92912 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:57 amAbout 9k. I enjoy things like reading an gardening, so, I guess it comes back to values.MyBrothersAdvisor wrote: ↑Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:14 am Good morning! This is my first post, but I'm a long-time lurker. I'm working through my projections and always get hung up on how much to assume I'll spend annually once I'm done working. What does everybody spend annually in retired not including your mortgage. I always assume $30k in addition to my projected pension which should be about $60k. I'll have health insurance for me and my husband in retirement so that should save us a bit. And I've conservatively assumed we'll have $900k in our investments at age 55 when I retire. We're hoping to travel quite a bit and/or get a second home to enjoy when our kids have kids and pass down to them once we're gone.
I guess my main question is: Does anybody spend significantly more than $90k/year in retirement? OR, maybe you don't but you see some giant holes in my projections and how I'm hoping our retirement will play out. We've got a number of years (more than 15, but less than 20) to correct things if it isn't going to work. I'd love to get a jump on it now!
-
- Posts: 15368
- Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:53 am
Re: For those retired or FI, how much do you spend annually?
It definitely matters where you live. We're in Utah, my property taxes were $1700 last year and car/home insurance was <$1100. My family of 4 is looking at <$30k in expenses this year, granted we are many years from retirement (mid-late 30's) so healthcare isn't a huge expense (our premiums are currently $120/yr) and our home is paid off. Income taxes are currently more than all of our living expenses combined, we're saving ~60% of gross income and probably <5yrs from FI (but likely won't retire for 15yrs or so).bampf wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 12:24 am @SpaceCowboy It does matter where you live. I have a very nice house that runs about $6K a year in property tax. High end insurance runs about $5K (Car, umbrella and house but not including healthcare). Healthcare would be about $24K unless I qualified for ACA in which case it would be a lot less. But, if I spent $30K a year on food, utilities, gas, and discretionary that would work out to about $2500 a month. $85 a day or so. That's pretty reasonable if you are frugal and don't go out a lot. So, while it wouldn't be super fat, I could probably live on $40k to $50K a year based on where I live and anticipated expenses.
- CyclingDuo
- Posts: 6009
- Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:07 am
Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?
You are not kidding when you say there are a lot of variables! Is $136 per day living high on the hog? Maybe for some, but probably not for many others.bg5 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:10 pm I know that there are a lot of variables such as cost of living but I am curious what people spend annually in retirement.
My gut tells me that $50,000 annually would be living "high on the hog" assuming all debts are paid off.
If anyone is willing to share I think it would be interesting.
Thanks,
BG5
BLS data shows us the average per household (look up what BLS calls a household):
And breaks it down per item spend category:
Here is an older article from 2016 that focuses on the household spending of Americans age 55 and older (you would need to translate the numbers into 2021 dollars):
https://www.bls.gov/opub/btn/volume-5/s ... ricans.htm
Speaking of variables regarding how much portfolio size (and other income streams) to cover one's daily/annual spend - you could probably find answers here at BH that cover each line in this table as well as some lines above the table:
CyclingDuo
"Save like a pessimist, invest like an optimist." - Morgan Housel |
"Pick a bushel, save a peck!" - Grandpa
-
- Posts: 3145
- Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:52 am
Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?
Most of us can have a pretty lavish retirement with $70,000-$120,000 depending on what part of the country we live in as long as we are debt free.
Being wrong compounds forever.
- thursdaysd
- Posts: 126
- Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 10:55 am
- Location: NC
- Contact:
Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?
Agreed. I spent nearly that much on "eating out" last year, and I'm single. "Eating out" being curb-side pickup from local restaurants, with higher-than-usual tips. My grocery bill was much higher, but that included more than food.
It really demonstrates that there is a huge variation, and the OP needs to start with his current expenditures and not worry too much about other people.
Thursday's child has far to go
Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?
Something different.....
22 years retired
First 5 years (1999-2003) $57,850 per year average spending
Last 5 years (2016-2020) $72,091 per year average
What did we spend on certain categories last 2 years (2020-21) $86,320 per year
(top 5 categories) average per year, not including a new auto purchase in 2019 ($25,172)
Medical $16648 (not including medicare premiums from Social Security payments)
Income taxes $8199
Gifts to family $6382
Charities $6490
Groceries $6480
Old age spending is very different.
Woof
22 years retired
First 5 years (1999-2003) $57,850 per year average spending
Last 5 years (2016-2020) $72,091 per year average
What did we spend on certain categories last 2 years (2020-21) $86,320 per year
(top 5 categories) average per year, not including a new auto purchase in 2019 ($25,172)
Medical $16648 (not including medicare premiums from Social Security payments)
Income taxes $8199
Gifts to family $6382
Charities $6490
Groceries $6480
Old age spending is very different.
Woof
Unless you try to do something beyond what you have already mastered you will never grow. (Ralph Waldo Emerson)
Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?
An adjacent question to the one that started this thread: how did you calculate--preretirement--what your spending in retirement would look like?
50% VTSAX | 25% VTIAX | 25% VBTLX (retirement), 25% VTEAX (taxable)
-
- Posts: 481
- Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:57 am
- Location: Ottawa
- Contact:
Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?
The answers lead me to believe that any retirement spending over what I spend is "high on the hog." Anything less than that isn't. Interesting.
Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?
Yup. It is mostly self-referential.investnoob wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:18 am The answers lead me to believe that any retirement spending over what I spend is "high on the hog." Anything less than that isn't. Interesting.
It's not an engineering problem - Hersh Shefrin | To get the "risk premium", you really do have to take the risk - nisiprius
Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?
We buy most of our groceries at Aldi, and we avoid expensive cuts of meat.
My $3K figure was a "guesstimate" based on our making usually two trips to Aldi per month, with bills in the $100-$150 range. Just now I looked at the most recent six months of credit card statements, and got a total of almost exactly $1200 in groceries, including a couple of visits to non-Aldi supermarkets.
The overall total of $53K is obviously subject to major fluctuation because of one-off expenses which vary from year to year. Last year, our only big one-off purchase was $4K for new computers for both of us. This year so far, we've paid $8K for a new roof.
Meet my pet, Peeve, who loves to convert non-acronyms into acronyms: FED, ROTH, CASH, IVY, ...
-
- Posts: 86
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:45 pm
Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?
It's all relative and relatively speaking it seems like many here don't know how extremely fortunate they are. $100,000 annual income, $20,000 cruises are not high on the hog? Relative to what? The very wealthiest perhaps but here in the U.S. and even more so the world as a whole, definitely not. $100k puts one in the top 10% in the U.S. That's pretty high on the hog in my eyes but that phrase may have distinctly different meanings to different people.
Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?
I live in California, house is paid for and we have low prop taxes. SS and draw from portfolio is 65k. We do fine, take trips ( in non covid times) and usually don't spend it all. We've always been frugal but we spend more now than when we were working and saving.
-
- Posts: 6561
- Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:35 pm
Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?
Pre-Medicare is expensive.arf1410 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:45 pmhelp me understand that one... I've been told to budget about $20k per year for health care ...iamblessed wrote: ↑Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:42 pm
We live on 22k so 50k is high on the hog here in the Midwest.
The bulk of your retirement should be after 65.
For MFJ, the cost per person for Medicare part B is $148.50/month each, so $3564 for a couple.
This is an 80/20 plan, and does not cover things like dental, eyeglasses, hearing aids.
For myself and my wife, adding a (very nice) medigap plan that also covers prescriptions brings us to
a bit over $11K/yr. I also assume 2% inflation in health care costs over standard inflation,
but that still averages less than $20K/yr. Medicare Advantage plans would cost even less.
Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?
On the contrary, many of us do appreciate how fortunate we are. My grandparents were all immigrants to this country who came here with nothing about 100 years ago.GoneCamping wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:49 am It's all relative and relatively speaking it seems like many here don't know how extremely fortunate they are. $100,000 annual income, $20,000 cruises are not high on the hog? Relative to what? The very wealthiest perhaps but here in the U.S. and even more so the world as a whole, definitely not. $100k puts one in the top 10% in the U.S. That's pretty high on the hog in my eyes but that phrase may have distinctly different meanings to different people.
The fact that I can take a $20,000 trip to visit one of the countries they came from is nothing short of miraculous.
As someone said earlier in the thread, “high on the hog” means someone who spends more than you. Or, I’d add, on things that you don’t value.
One thing that humbles me deeply is to see that human genius has its limits while human stupidity does not. - Alexandre Dumas, fils
- jeffyscott
- Posts: 13486
- Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:12 am
Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?
For about 5 years I did a calculation using our income and subtracting things that would go away in retirement and adjusted for the things that would change significantly. For us this calculation was:
income
-payroll tax
-health insurance, life insurance, and pension contribution deductions
-savings
-income tax
=net other spending
+car replacement allowance
+retirement income taxes
+retirement health care costs
=minimum retirement income (result was ~$50K for us)
+20% safety factor = desired retirement income (~$60K for us)
Over our first 4 years or so of retirement, this estimate has turned out to be pretty accurate. Our actual spending (excluding taxes on Roth conversions, but including the full cost of a new car) has been lower, but that is mostly just because the estimate included hitting max out of pocket for health care each year and that has happened in only one year and in the other out of pocket medical costs were low.
Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?
I followed a similar process.jeffyscott wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:29 amFor about 5 years I did a calculation using our income and subtracting things that would go away in retirement and adjusted for the things that would change significantly. For us this calculation was:
income
-payroll tax
-health insurance, life insurance, and pension contribution deductions
-savings
-income tax
=net other spending
+car replacement allowance
+retirement income taxes
+retirement health care costs
=minimum retirement income (result was ~$50K for us)
+20% safety factor = desired retirement income (~$60K for us)
Over our first 4 years or so of retirement, this estimate has turned out to be pretty accurate. Our actual spending (excluding taxes on Roth conversions, but including the full cost of a new car) has been lower, but that is mostly just because the estimate included hitting max out of pocket for health care each year and that has happened in only one year and in the other out of pocket medical costs were low.
If you have significant commuting costs, those would be another reduction in expenses.
And, of course, if you are changing homes or paying off a mortgage, those are important.
One thing that humbles me deeply is to see that human genius has its limits while human stupidity does not. - Alexandre Dumas, fils
Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?
If $50,000 is living high on the hog, we are living well above the tallest hog.
-
- Posts: 1145
- Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:32 am
Re: For those retired or FI, how much do you spend annually?
Thanks for sharing. Just curious, do you ever eat at restaurants? For us, that will be a category probably rivaling groceries. Also, nothing for entertainment?scifilover wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:54 am I just reread this entire thread and found it interesting in what it said and did not say. We have been retired for over 19 years I totaled up our spending for that time (from Quicken), and it averaged $90k per year. The devil, as they say, is in the details.....
So here are the major categories...
Housing.................................16.4% Includes repairs, alterations, furniture, garden, HOA fees....etc
Income taxes..........................16.2% Includes significant Roth conversions, no state
Groceries................................9.1
Gifts Given..............................8.9 Includes 529 funding for grandkids
Medical..................................8.2 Includes med insurance
Prop Taxes...............................7.2 Includes a 2nd home
Travel....................................6.8
Util.......................................4.5
Autos.....................................4.1 Includes insurance
Insurance other than auto, med.....3.9
Telephone and Internet...............2.5
Computers..............................1.4
And a bunch of other little stuff for the balance.
I think the most interesting thing that I learned from this exercise was the cost of housing when you consider that the houses are paid for.
- thursdaysd
- Posts: 126
- Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 10:55 am
- Location: NC
- Contact:
Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?
Not sure what you mean by "the bulk of your retirement should be after 65". I retired from my megacorp at 53. I did part-time contract work (some of it for the megacorp) for four more years, but I haven't worked since I turned 57. But if you mean you shouldn't withdraw from your portfolio until you turn 65, I still haven't made significant withdrawals and I'm in my 70s (they will start when I move to a CCRC in a couple of years).MathWizard wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:11 am The bulk of your retirement should be after 65.
For MFJ, the cost per person for Medicare part B is $148.50/month each, so $3564 for a couple.
This is an 80/20 plan, and does not cover things like dental, eyeglasses, hearing aids.
For myself and my wife, adding a (very nice) medigap plan that also covers prescriptions brings us to
a bit over $11K/yr. I also assume 2% inflation in health care costs over standard inflation,
but that still averages less than $20K/yr. Medicare Advantage plans would cost even less.
Prospective retirees should bear in mind that the cost of Medicare, in terms of what is withheld from SS, depends on your income. My cost went up noticeably when I started RMDs. The cost of my Medigap plan has also increased, year by year. And anyone can have an unexpected accident or diagnosis that will temporarily or permanently increase medical costs.
Thursday's child has far to go
-
- Posts: 6561
- Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:35 pm
Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?
I was answering arf1410's post:thursdaysd wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:56 pmNot sure what you mean by "the bulk of your retirement should be after 65". I retired from my megacorp at 53. I did part-time contract work (some of it for the megacorp) for four more years, but I haven't worked since I turned 57. But if you mean you shouldn't withdraw from your portfolio until you turn 65, I still haven't made significant withdrawals and I'm in my 70s (they will start when I move to a CCRC in a couple of years).MathWizard wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:11 am The bulk of your retirement should be after 65.
For MFJ, the cost per person for Medicare part B is $148.50/month each, so $3564 for a couple.
This is an 80/20 plan, and does not cover things like dental, eyeglasses, hearing aids.
For myself and my wife, adding a (very nice) medigap plan that also covers prescriptions brings us to
a bit over $11K/yr. I also assume 2% inflation in health care costs over standard inflation,
but that still averages less than $20K/yr. Medicare Advantage plans would cost even less.
Prospective retirees should bear in mind that the cost of Medicare, in terms of what is withheld from SS, depends on your income. My cost went up noticeably when I started RMDs. The cost of my Medigap plan has also increased, year by year. And anyone can have an unexpected accident or diagnosis that will temporarily or permanently increase medical costs.
in that health care should not be $20K/yr. forever, maybe before age 65, but not after.help me understand that one... I've been told to budget about $20k per year for health care ...
Unless there is some reason to expect an early demise, even fully retiring at 57, there is only 8 years until 65, and
you should expect to live much more than 8 years after 65. I plan for 85 for me and 100 for my wife. (I'm only planning
for about 5 years more than the average in our family histories.)
No, I did not imply that one should not draw from a portfolio before age 65. What would one live one then, unless
one has a pension .
My plans have me withdrawing more from my portfolio before age 70 so that I can delay claiming SS, and to do
some travelling before we can't or no longer enjoy travel.
We will also have very low RMDs, as I plan on converting most of the tax deferred to Roth.
- SmileyFace
- Posts: 9184
- Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:11 am
Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?
Similar to the fact that everyone going slower than me on the road driving is a slow-poke while everyone going faster is plain-old-crazyinvestnoob wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:18 am The answers lead me to believe that any retirement spending over what I spend is "high on the hog." Anything less than that isn't. Interesting.
For many $50K pays for taxes and medical expenses - then you have to eat.
- thursdaysd
- Posts: 126
- Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 10:55 am
- Location: NC
- Contact:
Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?
Again, this varies. I was fortunate to have both a pension and retiree medical, although the retiree medical is now just a $3,000/year contribution. Therefore my medical expenses are now considerably above what they were before 65, as I am on the "open market", plus I now need to take an expensive medication. My costs were $10,000 last year, not including the megacorp's $3,000, and that's as a single. I was already out of the drug plan "donut hole" and paying 5% of retail, in March.I was answering arf1410's post:
help me understand that one... I've been told to budget about $20k per year for health care ...
in that health care should not be $20K/yr. forever, maybe before age 65, but not after.
Thursday's child has far to go
-
- Posts: 16054
- Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 12:41 pm
Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?
This is very concerning. How accurate is this estimate? I took a quick look at ACA and I'm seeing premium pricing around 300/mo~500/mo w/o any subsidies. Do we really need to budget 20k/year? That'll derail planning for lots of people if true.help me understand that one... I've been told to budget about $20k per year for health care ...
-
- Posts: 1613
- Joined: Wed May 20, 2020 6:36 am
Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?
Not retired, but my "spreadsheet estimate" came to ~ 56K$/yr (house & vehicle paid off, MCOL area). This assumes a retirement before 65 and purchasing health insurance on an exchange.
Be sure to budget for replacing vehicles, house maintenance, and other large items that come up periodically.
“Now shall I walk or shall I ride? |
'Ride,' Pleasure said; |
'Walk,' Joy replied.” |
|
― W.H. Davies
-
- Posts: 955
- Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:48 pm
Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?
Thanks for the post-Medicare age data.MathWizard wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:11 amPre-Medicare is expensive.arf1410 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:45 pmhelp me understand that one... I've been told to budget about $20k per year for health care ...iamblessed wrote: ↑Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:42 pm
We live on 22k so 50k is high on the hog here in the Midwest.
The bulk of your retirement should be after 65.
For MFJ, the cost per person for Medicare part B is $148.50/month each, so $3564 for a couple.
This is an 80/20 plan, and does not cover things like dental, eyeglasses, hearing aids.
For myself and my wife, adding a (very nice) medigap plan that also covers prescriptions brings us to
a bit over $11K/yr. I also assume 2% inflation in health care costs over standard inflation,
but that still averages less than $20K/yr. Medicare Advantage plans would cost even less.
-
- Posts: 16054
- Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 12:41 pm
Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?
Thank you. I'm sensing 20k/year is probably too high, but 10k/year is very much real. Sigh, another cause of OMY...
Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?
ACA premiums are age based in almost all states, unlike employer provided insurance.Marseille07 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:53 pmThis is very concerning. How accurate is this estimate? I took a quick look at ACA and I'm seeing premium pricing around 300/mo~500/mo w/o any subsidies. Do we really need to budget 20k/year? That'll derail planning for lots of people if true.help me understand that one... I've been told to budget about $20k per year for health care ...
$300-500/mo unsubsidized might be about right for age 35-ish, but by late 50s early 60s will be much much higher, easily over $1000-1200 per person.
Don't plan on paying young people's premiums for the rest of your life, because you'll be a year older next year, and the next...
You can get full rate tables from most insurer's websites to help plan ahead.
-
- Posts: 16054
- Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 12:41 pm
Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?
That's kind of scary. Then maybe 20k/year per person estimate isn't that crazy after all. I'll call it 15k/year, thank you.MP123 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:25 pmACA premiums are age based in almost all states, unlike employer provided insurance.Marseille07 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:53 pmThis is very concerning. How accurate is this estimate? I took a quick look at ACA and I'm seeing premium pricing around 300/mo~500/mo w/o any subsidies. Do we really need to budget 20k/year? That'll derail planning for lots of people if true.help me understand that one... I've been told to budget about $20k per year for health care ...
$300-500/mo unsubsidized might be about right for age 35-ish, but by late 50s early 60s will be much much higher, easily over $1000-1200 per person.
Don't plan on paying young people's premiums for the rest of your life, because you'll be a year older next year, and the next...
You can get full rate tables from most insurer's websites to help plan ahead.
Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?
Also, ACA plans have high out of pocket maximums. Hopefully you won't hit them every year but in a bad year (or a few) you might need to pay at least $8-17k in addition to your premiums.Marseille07 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:35 pmThat's kind of scary. Then maybe 20k/year per person estimate isn't that crazy after all. I'll call it 15k/year, thank you.MP123 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:25 pmACA premiums are age based in almost all states, unlike employer provided insurance.Marseille07 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:53 pmThis is very concerning. How accurate is this estimate? I took a quick look at ACA and I'm seeing premium pricing around 300/mo~500/mo w/o any subsidies. Do we really need to budget 20k/year? That'll derail planning for lots of people if true.help me understand that one... I've been told to budget about $20k per year for health care ...
$300-500/mo unsubsidized might be about right for age 35-ish, but by late 50s early 60s will be much much higher, easily over $1000-1200 per person.
Don't plan on paying young people's premiums for the rest of your life, because you'll be a year older next year, and the next...
You can get full rate tables from most insurer's websites to help plan ahead.
Its very hard to plan, and there are all sorts of possible future changes, but it's not cheap.
-
- Posts: 16054
- Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 12:41 pm
Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?
Right, though won't there be some subsidies to lower the cost later? I haven't looked too closely as to who qualifies for how much (probably depends on the plan / state).MP123 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:59 pm Also, ACA plans have high out of pocket maximums. Hopefully you won't hit them every year but in a bad year (or a few) you might need to pay at least $8-17k in addition to your premiums.
Its very hard to plan, and there are all sorts of possible future changes, but it's not cheap.
I've budgeted 30K/year for travel, if SHTF I guess I'd need to slash travel for medical cost - which is probably reasonable, because travel cost & medical cost should have an inverse relationship.
Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?
My wife and I are both 52. An ACA silver plan is $2K/month for us before any subsidies. Deductibles and co-pays are in top,of that.Marseille07 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:53 pmThis is very concerning. How accurate is this estimate? I took a quick look at ACA and I'm seeing premium pricing around 300/mo~500/mo w/o any subsidies. Do we really need to budget 20k/year? That'll derail planning for lots of people if true.help me understand that one... I've been told to budget about $20k per year for health care ...
We’ve priced it in a few different markets, and the prices have been consistent everywhere we’ve looked.
I’ve heard (but not verified) that these prices go up quickly with age. So if you priced it as a 40 year old,you might get a much lower price.
-
- Posts: 16054
- Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 12:41 pm
Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?
Thank you for sharing the numbers. Maybe I really need to budget 20k/year just to be on the safe side. I'll think about it with respect to my travel budget.Normchad wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:24 pmMy wife and I are both 52. An ACA silver plan is $2K/month for us before any subsidies. Deductibles and co-pays are in top,of that.Marseille07 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:53 pmThis is very concerning. How accurate is this estimate? I took a quick look at ACA and I'm seeing premium pricing around 300/mo~500/mo w/o any subsidies. Do we really need to budget 20k/year? That'll derail planning for lots of people if true.help me understand that one... I've been told to budget about $20k per year for health care ...
We’ve priced it in a few different markets, and the prices have been consistent everywhere we’ve looked.
I’ve heard (but not verified) that these prices go up quickly with age. So if you priced it as a 40 year old,you might get a much lower price.
Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?
3k for food. I don't know how you do this for two people. If I buy fresh vegetables, fruit, fish, meat, butter, eggs, cheese and a bottle of wine, that's $150 per week for one person while keeping an eye on the budget, not free-wheeling. $7200 per year. How do you keep it to 3K? If you don't mind, what does a weekly shopping list look like for you?22twain wrote: ↑Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:46 pm We're retired, late 60s / early 70s, in a small town in the South, with a paid-off house.
Last year we spent a total of about $53K, of which:
$8K income tax (fed + state)
$12K donations (charitable + political)
$7K Medicare premiums
$9K housing-related (utilities, property tax, insurance, maintenance)
$3K food (no eating out because of Covid)
$14K everything else (cars, new computers, hobbies, etc.)
If it hadn't been for Covid, we would have spent more for eating out and travel.
Only one of us is collecting Social Security and taking RMDs from tax-deferred accounts. After the other one starts in a few years, our tax bill will probably increase to about $30K.
Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?
I've seen a lot of Bogleheads who will have to withdrawn RMDs over $100K when they turn 72, unless they do HUGE Roth conversions before then. That doesn't mean they have to spend the RMD, but that they have to withdraw and pay taxes on it. Are taxes considered an expense? What about the extra taxes due because of a Roth conversions or an RMD?
Some people save on their RMD taxes by donating $100K per spouse to charity instead of putting it in their taxable account. Are charitable donations considered spending?
Even for a retiree with no health issues, Medicare premiums are $148/mo, supplemental insurance ~$200/mo, drug plan ~$50/mo for each of them (costs are partly dependent on where you live). So that alone is $9,552 for a couple who doesn't need to see a doctor. Then there are surcharges on Medicare premiums (Part B and Part D) for those with MAGI over $176K two year previously (aka IRMAA). Are Medicare premiums and surcharges counted as an expense?
Some people save on their RMD taxes by donating $100K per spouse to charity instead of putting it in their taxable account. Are charitable donations considered spending?
Even for a retiree with no health issues, Medicare premiums are $148/mo, supplemental insurance ~$200/mo, drug plan ~$50/mo for each of them (costs are partly dependent on where you live). So that alone is $9,552 for a couple who doesn't need to see a doctor. Then there are surcharges on Medicare premiums (Part B and Part D) for those with MAGI over $176K two year previously (aka IRMAA). Are Medicare premiums and surcharges counted as an expense?
A dollar in Roth is worth more than a dollar in a taxable account. A dollar in taxable is worth more than a dollar in a tax-deferred account.
-
- Posts: 1823
- Joined: Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:00 am
- Location: Florida
Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?
I know these are rhetorical questions but yes...if it is outgoing $$, it is an expense.celia wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:49 pm I've seen a lot of Bogleheads who will have to withdrawn RMDs over $100K when they turn 72, unless they do HUGE Roth conversions before then. That doesn't mean they have to spend the RMD, but that they have to withdraw and pay taxes on it. Are taxes considered an expense? What about the extra taxes due because of a Roth conversions or an RMD?
Some people save on their RMD taxes by donating $100K per spouse to charity instead of putting it in their taxable account. Are charitable donations considered spending?
Even for a retiree with no health issues, Medicare premiums are $148/mo, supplemental insurance ~$200/mo, drug plan ~$50/mo for each of them (costs are partly dependent on where you live). So that alone is $9,552 for a couple who doesn't need to see a doctor. Then there are surcharges on Medicare premiums (Part B and Part D) for those with MAGI over $176K two year previously (aka IRMAA). Are Medicare premiums and surcharges counted as an expense?
"Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." Winston Churchill.
-
- Posts: 545
- Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:56 pm
Re: For those retired or FI, how much do you spend annually?
RE: Restaurants......been on a low sodium diet for a long time....hard to do at restaurants...Escapevelocity wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:49 pmThanks for sharing. Just curious, do you ever eat at restaurants? For us, that will be a category probably rivaling groceries. Also, nothing for entertainment?scifilover wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:54 am I just reread this entire thread and found it interesting in what it said and did not say. We have been retired for over 19 years I totaled up our spending for that time (from Quicken), and it averaged $90k per year. The devil, as they say, is in the details.....
So here are the major categories...
Housing.................................16.4% Includes repairs, alterations, furniture, garden, HOA fees....etc
Income taxes..........................16.2% Includes significant Roth conversions, no state
Groceries................................9.1
Gifts Given..............................8.9 Includes 529 funding for grandkids
Medical..................................8.2 Includes med insurance
Prop Taxes...............................7.2 Includes a 2nd home
Travel....................................6.8
Util.......................................4.5
Autos.....................................4.1 Includes insurance
Insurance other than auto, med.....3.9
Telephone and Internet...............2.5
Computers..............................1.4
And a bunch of other little stuff for the balance.
I think the most interesting thing that I learned from this exercise was the cost of housing when you consider that the houses are paid for.
RE: Entertainment.....We use to have symphony tickets, theater tickets, etc, but those events are in our relatively nearby metro area and the traffic, which was always bad, is really terrible. There are no transit options except for rush hour week days. We have big screens, and spend freely on cable/ streaming, and I don't parse those items for entertainment classification.
-
- Posts: 15368
- Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:53 am
Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?
We're at ~$4k/yr for a family of 4. We eat much differently than most families (wife and I intermittent fast, almost no processed food or "snacks", no alcohol, no expensive cuts of meat, ~3 dozen eggs a week (5 dozen is ~$5), lots and lots of bags of frozen veggies, 25lbs. bags of oat groats/brown rice, wife makes homemade sourdough bread and pancakes for kids, etc.); I'm similarly interested in what people who spend $150/week for an individual for just groceries (and say they are keeping an eye on budget) are eating at home? We shop about every 10-12 days and I'm not sure we've ever spent $150 in a single stop at the grocery store.JS-Elcano wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:38 pm3k for food. I don't know how you do this for two people. If I buy fresh vegetables, fruit, fish, meat, butter, eggs, cheese and a bottle of wine, that's $150 per week for one person while keeping an eye on the budget, not free-wheeling. $7200 per year. How do you keep it to 3K? If you don't mind, what does a weekly shopping list look like for you?22twain wrote: ↑Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:46 pm We're retired, late 60s / early 70s, in a small town in the South, with a paid-off house.
Last year we spent a total of about $53K, of which:
$8K income tax (fed + state)
$12K donations (charitable + political)
$7K Medicare premiums
$9K housing-related (utilities, property tax, insurance, maintenance)
$3K food (no eating out because of Covid)
$14K everything else (cars, new computers, hobbies, etc.)
If it hadn't been for Covid, we would have spent more for eating out and travel.
Only one of us is collecting Social Security and taking RMDs from tax-deferred accounts. After the other one starts in a few years, our tax bill will probably increase to about $30K.
Is this Whole Foods, free range, organic, etc. or are you having a ribeye or Chilean sea bass filet every night for dinner?
Re: For those retired or FI, how much do you spend annually?
Close to your budget. 75 per year with 120 cap. 2 houses, retired 6 years,big travel budget which we don’t seem to use enough
Marty....don't go to the year 2020....Dr. Emmett Brown
Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?
We pay 20k a year for mega Corp retiree medical insurance. That being said it is good medical insurance as those thing go. Our choice, we could go ACA, but I could also drive a pinto.Marseille07 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:53 pmThis is very concerning. How accurate is this estimate? I took a quick look at ACA and I'm seeing premium pricing around 300/mo~500/mo w/o any subsidies. Do we really need to budget 20k/year? That'll derail planning for lots of people if true.help me understand that one... I've been told to budget about $20k per year for health care ...
Marty....don't go to the year 2020....Dr. Emmett Brown
-
- Posts: 16054
- Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 12:41 pm
Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?
For those spending 150/wk, yeah. I don't know what they're complaining really, they're choosing to buy expensive foods.stoptothink wrote: ↑Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:35 amWe're at ~$4k/yr for a family of 4. We eat much differently than most families (wife and I intermittent fast, almost no processed food or "snacks", no alcohol, no expensive cuts of meat, ~3 dozen eggs a week (5 dozen is ~$5), lots and lots of bags of frozen veggies, 25lbs. bags of oat groats/brown rice, wife makes homemade sourdough bread and pancakes for kids, etc.); I'm similarly interested in what people who spend $150/week for an individual for just groceries (and say they are keeping an eye on budget) are eating at home? We shop about every 10-12 days and I'm not sure we've ever spent $150 in a single stop at the grocery store.JS-Elcano wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:38 pm3k for food. I don't know how you do this for two people. If I buy fresh vegetables, fruit, fish, meat, butter, eggs, cheese and a bottle of wine, that's $150 per week for one person while keeping an eye on the budget, not free-wheeling. $7200 per year. How do you keep it to 3K? If you don't mind, what does a weekly shopping list look like for you?22twain wrote: ↑Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:46 pm We're retired, late 60s / early 70s, in a small town in the South, with a paid-off house.
Last year we spent a total of about $53K, of which:
$8K income tax (fed + state)
$12K donations (charitable + political)
$7K Medicare premiums
$9K housing-related (utilities, property tax, insurance, maintenance)
$3K food (no eating out because of Covid)
$14K everything else (cars, new computers, hobbies, etc.)
If it hadn't been for Covid, we would have spent more for eating out and travel.
Only one of us is collecting Social Security and taking RMDs from tax-deferred accounts. After the other one starts in a few years, our tax bill will probably increase to about $30K.
Is this Whole Foods, free range, organic, etc. or are you having a ribeye or Chilean sea bass filet every night for dinner?
- jeffyscott
- Posts: 13486
- Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:12 am
Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?
Yes, but they are optional expenses or the timing is optional. And none of these expenses would have any impact on the OP's implied question, treating the "high on the hog" as hyperbole: "Can you live comfortably in retirement on $50K per year, assuming no debt?" (And I think the assumption is also that you own your home, that you are not paying rent out of that $50K...at least that was my assumption.)rossington wrote: ↑Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:12 amI know these are rhetorical questions but yes...if it is outgoing $$, it is an expense.celia wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:49 pm I've seen a lot of Bogleheads who will have to withdrawn RMDs over $100K when they turn 72, unless they do HUGE Roth conversions before then. That doesn't mean they have to spend the RMD, but that they have to withdraw and pay taxes on it. Are taxes considered an expense? What about the extra taxes due because of a Roth conversions or an RMD?
Some people save on their RMD taxes by donating $100K per spouse to charity instead of putting it in their taxable account. Are charitable donations considered spending?
Even for a retiree with no health issues, Medicare premiums are $148/mo, supplemental insurance ~$200/mo, drug plan ~$50/mo for each of them (costs are partly dependent on where you live). So that alone is $9,552 for a couple who doesn't need to see a doctor. Then there are surcharges on Medicare premiums (Part B and Part D) for those with MAGI over $176K two year previously (aka IRMAA). Are Medicare premiums and surcharges counted as an expense?
I don't have to pay taxes on Roth conversions, if I don't do the conversions. Presumably one is doing the conversions in order to pay less tax now, rather than more tax later. Perhaps a better way to ask the, approximately equivalent after-tax, question would be something like: "Can you live comfortably on $45,000 per year, excluding income taxes?".
You can choose not to donate, if you want/need to use the money for something else, in order to attain you desired level on the hog.
You can choose less costly Medicare coverage, I think in many places you can get all the coverage for just the $148 per month in a Medicare advantage plan (assuming not subject to IRMAA and if you are living on $50K as the OP suggests, then you are not). But then maybe having Cadillac (or should the phrase now be "Tesla") coverage is part of being high on that old hog?
-
- Posts: 16054
- Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 12:41 pm
Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?
This is a good choice in my opinion. I will look if my company offers something like this and how much it might be.Marmot wrote: ↑Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:54 amWe pay 20k a year for mega Corp retiree medical insurance. That being said it is good medical insurance as those thing go. Our choice, we could go ACA, but I could also drive a pinto.Marseille07 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:53 pmThis is very concerning. How accurate is this estimate? I took a quick look at ACA and I'm seeing premium pricing around 300/mo~500/mo w/o any subsidies. Do we really need to budget 20k/year? That'll derail planning for lots of people if true.help me understand that one... I've been told to budget about $20k per year for health care ...