The Power of Working Longer

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afan
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by afan »

Impossible to test this theory that the attitude towards work is generational until the millennials get old enough that they could start retiring early, late or never. Until then, pure speculation that may well be driven by sampling error. "Everyone I talk to feels this way. I don't talk to people who disagree. In fact, I try to chase them away. Therefore, based on the people with whom I communicate, everyone agrees with me."

There are no millennial federal judges who are eligible for full salary as pension, so we don't know what they will do when there are.

Based on the millennials I know, and therefore an accurate representation of all millennials everywhere, many are looking for satisfying careers of significant accomplishment. Not just a paycheck. They WANT to work hard, because they say and behave as if they believe that this lets them get more ambitious things done.

Of course, we don't know the attitudes of the 99.99999% of millennials that neither of us has ever met, so perhaps not try to extrapolate the opinions of a few as universal? Or recognize that attitudes may change over time?
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by J295 »

Thanks Justin. I was interested in your personal perspectives.
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by JustinR »

afan wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 9:01 pm Impossible to test this theory that the attitude towards work is generational until the millennials get old enough that they could start retiring early, late or never. Until then, pure speculation that may well be driven by sampling error. "Everyone I talk to feels this way. I don't talk to people who disagree. In fact, I try to chase them away. Therefore, based on the people with whom I communicate, everyone agrees with me."

There are no millennial federal judges who are eligible for full salary as pension, so we don't know what they will do when there are.

Based on the millennials I know, and therefore an accurate representation of all millennials everywhere, many are looking for satisfying careers of significant accomplishment. Not just a paycheck. They WANT to work hard, because they say and behave as if they believe that this lets them get more ambitious things done.

Of course, we don't know the attitudes of the 99.99999% of millennials that neither of us has ever met, so perhaps not try to extrapolate the opinions of a few as universal? Or recognize that attitudes may change over time?
Just to clarify a second time:
  • I don't mean that NO millennials personally want to work forever due to job satisfaction or passion.
  • Nor am I saying that EVERY boomer thinks that way.

I am only stating that the type of person go around preaching that "people should find their passion and work forever because otherwise life is meaningless" is probably a boomer or has boomer mentality.

It just probably won't be a millennial. Even a millennial who personally wants to work forever will be able to understand why their peers don't.

That was my whole theory, and I was correct. That's all I'm going to say about this topic for now because I don't want to derail this thread further.
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by coachd50 »

JoeRetire wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:43 pm
rockstar wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 6:01 pm The system is rigged to keep us working as long as possible.
Sorry, that makes no sense. Many people stop working before they must.
That doesn’t mean the system is not set up as rockstar described. It could simply mean that some are able to break through the system.
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by LadyGeek »

I removed an off-topic post and reply. As noted earlier, universal health care is off-topic (proposed legislation, see: Politics and Religion).

Please stay on-topic.
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by CyclingDuo »

JustinR wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:17 pm I am only stating that the type of person go around preaching that "people should find their passion and work forever because otherwise life is meaningless" is probably a boomer or has boomer mentality.
Wow! I'm really struggling with your assumptions and comments, JustinR. I think we should all take care not to be discriminatory. What data do you have that proves finding one's passion, and the length of one's working career is tied to a specific generation? That being said, it's also of note to realize that all members of any generation do not share the same mentality.

"The math is not that hard. The boom began in July, 1946, when live births in the United States jumped to two hundred and eighty-six thousand, and it did not end until December, 1964, when three hundred and thirty-one thousand babies were born. That’s eighteen years and approximately seventy-six million people. It does not make a lot of sense to try to generalize about seventy-six million people. The expectations and potential life paths of Americans born in 1946 were completely different from the expectations and life paths of Americans born in 1964. One cohort entered the workforce in a growing economy, the other in a recession. One cohort had Elvis Presley to look forward to; the other had him to look back on. Male forty-sixers had to register for the draft, something people born in 1964 never had to worry about." -- https://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultu ... he-sixties

That is a rather large group of people categorized under the label of Boomer, but it is of note to point out that most of the younger and older Boomers have very little to do with each other.

That being said, I have 5 siblings and we all watched both sets of our grandparents and our parents with regard to their passions and their working careers. Likewise, all of our children and our nieces and nephews have watched their parents and grand parents regarding passions and their working careers. Between all those family members, it spans a time frame from the late 1800's to the current 2021. Some survived the 1918-1920 pandemic. Some survived serving in the military and wars. It would be difficult for me to assign any passion or thoughts on the length of a working career from all of those involved to a specific generation such as you have attempted to do.

Color me perplexed why you think that way regarding one particular generation (that has a lot more variety than you are giving it credit for...).

It is interesting how life unfolds through the decades no matter what generation one is assigned to via demographics. The transition from being single to being in a union. The transition to having children (for those that do). The transition from the children leaving home and entering the empty nest years. The transition from career work to retirement. Until one goes through each of those transitions, it's quite a bit different actually experiencing each of them compared to observing them from family and friends and prior generations. We found the academic study that Bob linked (and has been discussed before on the forums) to be interesting and my wife and I both read it, watched the video and discussed it.

Beyond the financial metrics that the academic study was aimed, to this day I have yet to find a better resource regarding the mentality, identity and purpose of why one works longer than the book Aging, Work, and Retirement by Elizabeth Fideler. It's not specific to the US or to any demographic and is rather eye opening. I highly recommend it to those who are interested in the subject.

https://www.amazon.com/Aging-Work-Retir ... 153813960X

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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by willthrill81 »

CyclingDuo wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 9:41 am
JustinR wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:17 pm I am only stating that the type of person go around preaching that "people should find their passion and work forever because otherwise life is meaningless" is probably a boomer or has boomer mentality.
Wow! I'm really struggling with your assumptions and comments, JustinR. I think we should all take care not to be discriminatory. What data do you have that proves finding one's passion, and the length of one's working career is tied to a specific generation? That being said, it's also of note to realize that all members of any generation do not share the same mentality.
I see both sides of this. You're obviously quite correct that not all members of any generation share anything in common at all beyond being born within a certain period of time. As an example, take a look at Celine Dion and Courtney Love. Both are in the same generation, but beyond that, they probably don't share identical views about everything, maybe even most things.

But OTOH, there does appear to be a pretty common mindset among many, though certainly not all, older workers that people should remain in economically productive employment as long as they possibly can. This perspective does not seem to be nearly as common among Millennials (aka Gen Y) or Gen Z, who appear to largely view gainful employment as primarily a means to an end. I know that this is certainly true for me. While I enjoy my work, if I didn't have to do it in order to provide for my family, I would be doing something else, and it wouldn't be economically productive (the opposite, actually). When I've mentioned that I'm planning for retiring in my early 50s to my older colleagues, most just look at me dumbfounded.

But maybe I'm totally wrong about all of this and the generation one is in is completely uncorrelated with one's views about the value of gainful employment.
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by JoeRetire »

coachd50 wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:54 am
JoeRetire wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:43 pm
rockstar wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 6:01 pm The system is rigged to keep us working as long as possible.
Sorry, that makes no sense. Many people stop working before they must.
That doesn’t mean the system is not set up as rockstar described. It could simply mean that some are able to break through the system.
I guess everyone is free to decide "the system is rigged" whether it makes any sense or not. Nobody is forced to produce evidence of conspiracy theories.
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by H-Town »

I'm surprised that we're attached to, and defend, a specific generation. Don't we value individualism anymore? From my point of view, it's a win if I'm doing something unique and special than my peer group. It's a lose if you do something that everyone in your peer group is expected to do.
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by willthrill81 »

H-Town wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:10 am I'm surprised that we're attached to, and defend, a specific generation. Don't we value individualism anymore? From my point of view, it's a win if I'm doing something unique and special than my peer group. It's a lose if you do something that everyone in your peer group is expected to do.
It's ironic that we often express individualism by identifying with groups that we like. :P

Sometimes, your peer group's expectations are helpful and appropriate, and sometimes, they can be self-destructive.
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by CyclingDuo »

willthrill81 wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:00 amWhen I've mentioned that I'm planning for retiring in my early 50s to my older colleagues, most just look at me dumbfounded.
I think the answer to that is simply found in studying the savings rate, household expenses/salary, and portfolio values. We know what it takes to get there here on the Boglehead forums, but I believe the figure is only 16% of the US population saves more than 15% of their income. The odds are obviously in your favor when talking to a colleague that they are one of the 84% that has not saved beyond 15% of their income which means for all practical purposes retiring early is rather far fetched. :beer

Observations I have made over the past 18 years with many of my colleagues are they had no idea what an ER fee was, let alone what they were paying in their respective funds they had chosen in our TIAA plan. Three of my colleagues have been in the local newspapers in the public record section for bankruptcy. :shock: Several have gone through costly divorces and division of assets. Ten years ago, several asked me at a table where we were sitting having coffee and cookies after a lengthy faculty meeting, about investing when we were chit-chatting about sending our kids to college, scholarships, tuition, et... . They were in their 40's or early 50's at the time and all had kids that went to high school with my kids. None of them had even started investing in the 403b yet! I was in disbelief, but held my cards close to my vest.

The year I went to talk to HR so I could up my 403b contributions to include the over age 50 catch up contribution as well, she told me I was one of the few that maxed out my 403b, but was also only one of the very, very few that also did the catch up contribution for over age 50. Probably not a surprise based on the faculty salaries at my former employer as well as perhaps those that had children and were not in homes that included a decent second income to pair with the faculty salary for our cost of living area.

Anyway, I don't think it is demographics regarding when you mention your desire to retire early to any of your older colleagues or staff, but more to do with them being part of the 84% that aren't even saving 15% of their income.

CyclingDuo
Last edited by CyclingDuo on Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

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CyclingDuo wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:37 am Anyway, I don't think it is demographics regarding when you mention your desire to retire early to any of your colleagues or staff, but more to do with them being part of the 84% that aren't even saving 15% of their income.
You're probably right. But when I mention the concept of FIRE to my students, none of them are shocked the way my older colleagues are. I haven't heard one student say something like 'But what will you do in retirement? Don't you want to be a productive member of society?'. Maybe that's just a fluke though.
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by smitcat »

willthrill81 wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:41 am
CyclingDuo wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:37 am Anyway, I don't think it is demographics regarding when you mention your desire to retire early to any of your colleagues or staff, but more to do with them being part of the 84% that aren't even saving 15% of their income.
You're probably right. But when I mention the concept of FIRE to my students, none of them are shocked the way my older colleagues are. I haven't heard one student say something like 'But what will you do in retirement? Don't you want to be a productive member of society?'. Maybe that's just a fluke though.
And then again that was fairly poplular in the 1970's - cycles like these are often repeated.
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by willthrill81 »

smitcat wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:50 am
willthrill81 wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:41 am
CyclingDuo wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:37 am Anyway, I don't think it is demographics regarding when you mention your desire to retire early to any of your colleagues or staff, but more to do with them being part of the 84% that aren't even saving 15% of their income.
You're probably right. But when I mention the concept of FIRE to my students, none of them are shocked the way my older colleagues are. I haven't heard one student say something like 'But what will you do in retirement? Don't you want to be a productive member of society?'. Maybe that's just a fluke though.
And then again that was fairly poplular in the 1970's - cycles like these are often repeated.
That very well could be.
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by qwertyjazz »

smitcat wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:50 am
willthrill81 wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:41 am
CyclingDuo wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:37 am Anyway, I don't think it is demographics regarding when you mention your desire to retire early to any of your colleagues or staff, but more to do with them being part of the 84% that aren't even saving 15% of their income.
You're probably right. But when I mention the concept of FIRE to my students, none of them are shocked the way my older colleagues are. I haven't heard one student say something like 'But what will you do in retirement? Don't you want to be a productive member of society?'. Maybe that's just a fluke though.
And then again that was fairly poplular in the 1970's - cycles like these are often repeated.
Then came the greed is good decade. I wonder where we are in the cycle now.
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by willthrill81 »

qwertyjazz wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:58 am
smitcat wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:50 am
willthrill81 wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:41 am
CyclingDuo wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:37 am Anyway, I don't think it is demographics regarding when you mention your desire to retire early to any of your colleagues or staff, but more to do with them being part of the 84% that aren't even saving 15% of their income.
You're probably right. But when I mention the concept of FIRE to my students, none of them are shocked the way my older colleagues are. I haven't heard one student say something like 'But what will you do in retirement? Don't you want to be a productive member of society?'. Maybe that's just a fluke though.
And then again that was fairly poplular in the 1970's - cycles like these are often repeated.
Then came the greed is good decade. I wonder where we are in the cycle now.
We haven't yet encountered double-digit inflation, and hopefully we won't.
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by smitcat »

qwertyjazz wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:58 am
smitcat wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:50 am
willthrill81 wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:41 am
CyclingDuo wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:37 am Anyway, I don't think it is demographics regarding when you mention your desire to retire early to any of your colleagues or staff, but more to do with them being part of the 84% that aren't even saving 15% of their income.
You're probably right. But when I mention the concept of FIRE to my students, none of them are shocked the way my older colleagues are. I haven't heard one student say something like 'But what will you do in retirement? Don't you want to be a productive member of society?'. Maybe that's just a fluke though.
And then again that was fairly poplular in the 1970's - cycles like these are often repeated.
Then came the greed is good decade. I wonder where we are in the cycle now.
I watched many of my older brothers friends go from 'flower power' and 'freedom' to working accounting/marketing/mechanics etc jobs as well as working later in life to catch up after many years being 'without stress'.
YMMV
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by qwertyjazz »

smitcat wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:33 am
qwertyjazz wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:58 am
smitcat wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:50 am
willthrill81 wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:41 am
CyclingDuo wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:37 am Anyway, I don't think it is demographics regarding when you mention your desire to retire early to any of your colleagues or staff, but more to do with them being part of the 84% that aren't even saving 15% of their income.
You're probably right. But when I mention the concept of FIRE to my students, none of them are shocked the way my older colleagues are. I haven't heard one student say something like 'But what will you do in retirement? Don't you want to be a productive member of society?'. Maybe that's just a fluke though.
And then again that was fairly poplular in the 1970's - cycles like these are often repeated.
Then came the greed is good decade. I wonder where we are in the cycle now.
I watched many of my older brothers friends go from 'flower power' and 'freedom' to working accounting/marketing/mechanics etc jobs as well as working later in life to catch up after many years being 'without stress'.
YMMV
Not sure if that is a bad trade off though. I lost my 20s being in school/high work hours. Spending that time when young and healthier on fun stuff seems like it might have been a better deal. But now my job is not that bad. Mileage on this clearly varies
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by smitcat »

qwertyjazz wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:38 am
smitcat wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:33 am
qwertyjazz wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:58 am
smitcat wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:50 am
willthrill81 wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:41 am

You're probably right. But when I mention the concept of FIRE to my students, none of them are shocked the way my older colleagues are. I haven't heard one student say something like 'But what will you do in retirement? Don't you want to be a productive member of society?'. Maybe that's just a fluke though.
And then again that was fairly poplular in the 1970's - cycles like these are often repeated.
Then came the greed is good decade. I wonder where we are in the cycle now.
I watched many of my older brothers friends go from 'flower power' and 'freedom' to working accounting/marketing/mechanics etc jobs as well as working later in life to catch up after many years being 'without stress'.
YMMV
Not sure if that is a bad trade off though. I lost my 20s being in school/high work hours. Spending that time when young and healthier on fun stuff seems like it might have been a better deal. But now my job is not that bad. Mileage on this clearly varies
I still had plenty of time in my 20's to play with all kinds of things even when I was working and going to school.
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by AlwaysLearningMore »

Much of the "my job is sapping my life" comes down to perception and choices.

Since the 13th Amendment to the US Constitution was ratified in 1836, no American has been irrevocably bound to their job. Those who remain do so voluntarily. Proof? Quit and see if they can force you back. More proof? If the job were truly physically dangerous, would the worker return the next day? If so, then bring it to OSHA's attention https://tinyurl.com/nmrc2q8

Psychologically draining? Keeping them from "quality time" with family, going to art exhibits, concerts, etc.? The worker who stays at their job has made the conscious decision to do so.

When I was in training, a fellow trainee was whining about the long hours, stress and "not enough time with family," and our SO said "Get off the cross, someone else needs the wood!" That was immediately followed by a direct query as to whether that trainee desired to be relieved of their position "so they could do what they wanted with their life." At that time the whiner replied "no" and (mercifully) we heard no more of that at work; it's not good for workplace cohesion.
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by 59Gibson »

qwertyjazz wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:58 am
smitcat wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:50 am
willthrill81 wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:41 am
CyclingDuo wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:37 am Anyway, I don't think it is demographics regarding when you mention your desire to retire early to any of your colleagues or staff, but more to do with them being part of the 84% that aren't even saving 15% of their income.
You're probably right. But when I mention the concept of FIRE to my students, none of them are shocked the way my older colleagues are. I haven't heard one student say something like 'But what will you do in retirement? Don't you want to be a productive member of society?'. Maybe that's just a fluke though.
And then again that was fairly poplular in the 1970's - cycles like these are often repeated.
Then came the greed is good decade. I wonder where we are in the cycle now.
I believe the 1980s may be the reason stereotypes of Boomers and their work/spend mentality persist. The 80s was a time of immense commercialization of everything and the moto was "greed is good". It was spend, spend, spend. The way to do that is work, work, work. Keep pushing-move up. I think younger generations saw this and the collateral damage and may have other notions. Certainly not a sweeping indictment of any group, but more of a generalization.
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by stoptothink »

AlwaysLearningMore wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:03 pm Much of the "my job is sapping my life" comes down to perception and choices.

Since the 13th Amendment to the US Constitution was ratified in 1836, no American has been irrevocably bound to their job. Those who remain do so voluntarily. Proof? Quit and see if they can force you back. More proof? If the job were truly physically dangerous, would the worker return the next day? If so, then bring it to OSHA's attention https://tinyurl.com/nmrc2q8

Psychologically draining? Keeping them from "quality time" with family, going to art exhibits, concerts, etc.? The worker who stays at their job has made the conscious decision to do so.

When I was in training, a fellow trainee was whining about the long hours, stress and "not enough time with family," and our SO said "Get off the cross, someone else needs the wood!" That was immediately followed by a direct query as to whether that trainee desired to be relieved of their position "so they could do what they wanted with their life." At that time the whiner replied "no" and (mercifully) we heard no more of that at work; it's not good for workplace cohesion.
Great post. It seems to be increasingly popular in contemporary culture to suggest that your job (or even education) is essentially serfdom. As a former collegiate athlete who later trained collegiate athletes as a career, I had to express similar feelings many times. You may not like the alternatives, but you always have a choice (at least in the modern-day U.S.) and how you "feel" about your situation is a choice in and of itself. If you decide it isn't for you, there are A LOT of people who will gladly take your place. I've worked some rough jobs (like loading trucks at night for UPS and cleaning on-campus bathrooms, while simultaneously a full-time college student-athlete) and I've always tried to keep in mind how that job effected me outside the work place was totally up to me (often easier said than done).
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by peppers »

willthrill81 wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:02 am

We haven't yet encountered double-digit inflation, and hopefully we won't.
Double-digit inflation isn't pretty.

Ask me how I know.
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by EddyB »

willthrill81 wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:41 am
CyclingDuo wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:37 am Anyway, I don't think it is demographics regarding when you mention your desire to retire early to any of your colleagues or staff, but more to do with them being part of the 84% that aren't even saving 15% of their income.
You're probably right. But when I mention the concept of FIRE to my students, none of them are shocked the way my older colleagues are. I haven't heard one student say something like 'But what will you do in retirement? Don't you want to be a productive member of society?'. Maybe that's just a fluke though.
Or maybe the boomers who felt the same way already made the choices that left them much less likely to be among your older colleagues.
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by willthrill81 »

EddyB wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:42 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:41 am
CyclingDuo wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:37 am Anyway, I don't think it is demographics regarding when you mention your desire to retire early to any of your colleagues or staff, but more to do with them being part of the 84% that aren't even saving 15% of their income.
You're probably right. But when I mention the concept of FIRE to my students, none of them are shocked the way my older colleagues are. I haven't heard one student say something like 'But what will you do in retirement? Don't you want to be a productive member of society?'. Maybe that's just a fluke though.
Or maybe the boomers who felt the same way already made the choices that left them much less likely to be among your older colleagues.
That's doubtful. Very seldom do we see any retire from my profession (i.e., college professor) before their 60s.
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by EddyB »

willthrill81 wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:46 pm
EddyB wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:42 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:41 am
CyclingDuo wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:37 am Anyway, I don't think it is demographics regarding when you mention your desire to retire early to any of your colleagues or staff, but more to do with them being part of the 84% that aren't even saving 15% of their income.
You're probably right. But when I mention the concept of FIRE to my students, none of them are shocked the way my older colleagues are. I haven't heard one student say something like 'But what will you do in retirement? Don't you want to be a productive member of society?'. Maybe that's just a fluke though.
Or maybe the boomers who felt the same way already made the choices that left them much less likely to be among your older colleagues.
That's doubtful. Very seldom do we see any retire from my profession (i.e., college professor) before their 60s.
I don't know your discipline, but perhaps the people who were more interested in retiring early (even people with similar educational backgrounds) were less likely to become college professors in the first place. Speaking in gross generalities, it is a field where the rewards accrue relatively late and increased late-career burdens are relatively muted.
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by willthrill81 »

EddyB wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 1:19 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:46 pm
EddyB wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:42 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:41 am
CyclingDuo wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:37 am Anyway, I don't think it is demographics regarding when you mention your desire to retire early to any of your colleagues or staff, but more to do with them being part of the 84% that aren't even saving 15% of their income.
You're probably right. But when I mention the concept of FIRE to my students, none of them are shocked the way my older colleagues are. I haven't heard one student say something like 'But what will you do in retirement? Don't you want to be a productive member of society?'. Maybe that's just a fluke though.
Or maybe the boomers who felt the same way already made the choices that left them much less likely to be among your older colleagues.
That's doubtful. Very seldom do we see any retire from my profession (i.e., college professor) before their 60s.
I don't know your discipline, but perhaps the people who were more interested in retiring early (even people with similar educational backgrounds) were less likely to become college professors in the first place. Speaking in gross generalities, it is a field where the rewards accrue relatively late and increased late-career burdens are relatively muted.
That might be accurate. It's definitely a profession with a high front-end-load in terms of work and investment.
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by JoeRetire »

smitcat wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:50 am
willthrill81 wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:41 am
CyclingDuo wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:37 am Anyway, I don't think it is demographics regarding when you mention your desire to retire early to any of your colleagues or staff, but more to do with them being part of the 84% that aren't even saving 15% of their income.
You're probably right. But when I mention the concept of FIRE to my students, none of them are shocked the way my older colleagues are. I haven't heard one student say something like 'But what will you do in retirement? Don't you want to be a productive member of society?'. Maybe that's just a fluke though.
And then again that was fairly poplular in the 1970's - cycles like these are often repeated.
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by JoeRetire »

qwertyjazz wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:38 amNot sure if that is a bad trade off though. I lost my 20s being in school/high work hours. Spending that time when young and healthier on fun stuff seems like it might have been a better deal. But now my job is not that bad. Mileage on this clearly varies
Better to retire at 18
Have fun for 30 years or so
Go to school, work lots of hours (and "lose years"?) at 50 or so
Continue to work hard until you die

It's an option, I guess. Good luck with that.
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by CyclingDuo »

JoeRetire wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 1:25 pm
smitcat wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:50 am
willthrill81 wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:41 am
CyclingDuo wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:37 am Anyway, I don't think it is demographics regarding when you mention your desire to retire early to any of your colleagues or staff, but more to do with them being part of the 84% that aren't even saving 15% of their income.
You're probably right. But when I mention the concept of FIRE to my students, none of them are shocked the way my older colleagues are. I haven't heard one student say something like 'But what will you do in retirement? Don't you want to be a productive member of society?'. Maybe that's just a fluke though.
And then again that was fairly popular in the 1970's - cycles like these are often repeated.
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Ah, yes - Timothy Leary. 1966. LSD was banned in 1967.

Keep in mind, the largest segment of Baby Boomers were still in diapers or barely out of diapers when all of that took place. Those born from 1955 and beyond certainly were not involved in turning on, tuning in and dropping out with LSD. Probably true for those that were 18 and under in 1966-67, so any Boomers born after 1948 most likely were not involved in any of that.

On the other hand, however, it was legal to purchase and drink at age 18 for my generation (the younger Boomers). Congress raised the age to 21 in 1984 - a year after I graduated from college. :mrgreen:

We should all champion those who want to save and invest with a goal of retiring early. We should also all champion those who want to save and invest, but have a goal of retiring later. I don't think we can assign a demographic to either path or make blanket statements.

Regarding the academic study that the OP linked, I do know the numbers for my wife and I regarding our individual Social Security in terms of what it is scheduled to be - depending on which age we take it (our 2020 income numbers have been updated at the SS site). As has been said umpteen times in this thread, the premise of working longer and the subsequent delay of taking SS and cutting the number of years to fund in retirement shorter is not new, nor is it earth shattering news. Likewise, as Willthrill81 and others bring up, choosing when to retire is not always at the control of one's decision making. I would be a perfect example of that regarding my prior employment that ended in mid 2018 as it was not my choice. Mine was not a health related issue, but a supply and demand issue due to declining enrollment. Fortunately, since mine was not a health related issue, I was ready and willing to continue working. I have been able to overcome that job loss and delay the years I need to fund in my retirement by piecing together multiple jobs for the past three years while still socking away what I had planned on saving during the past three years before I lost my prior job. I will be backing off a bit come the end of April as one of my multiple jobs will end (for the same reason as my prior job - declining enrollment and supply/demand issues), so after working 7 days per week the past three years I will be cutting back to just 5 days per week during the academic year come the end of April.

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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by abuss368 »

Working longer does not have to be an either / or decision. I think too many examples show it as that.

The power and flexibility of working part time can provide a HUGE benefit both financially and mentally.

Prospective retirees can often ease and transition into retirement.

Tony
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by coachd50 »

JoeRetire wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:05 am
coachd50 wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:54 am
JoeRetire wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:43 pm
rockstar wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 6:01 pm The system is rigged to keep us working as long as possible.
Sorry, that makes no sense. Many people stop working before they must.
That doesn’t mean the system is not set up as rockstar described. It could simply mean that some are able to break through the system.
I guess everyone is free to decide "the system is rigged" whether it makes any sense or not. Nobody is forced to produce evidence of conspiracy theories.
Rigged doesn't necessarily mean "conspiracy theory". Rigged simply means "set up". Like one may rig a building with explosives to implode safely as opposed to explode.
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

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CyclingDuo wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 1:51 pmWe should all champion those who want to save and invest with a goal of retiring early. We should also all champion those who want to save and invest, but have a goal of retiring later. I don't think we can assign a demographic to either path or make blanket statements.

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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by Wrench »

JustinR wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 8:04 pm
J295 wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:49 pm
JustinR wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:13 pm
afan wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:07 pm
JustinR wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 8:47 am
Just curious, how old are you?
No direct answer.

Old enough that I could retire. Young enough that I anticipate a long working career ahead of me.

What does the age of one person on here have to do with changing jobs vs retiring in response to job dissatisfaction? Or what retirement may have meant in years past?
Because "everyone should find their passion job and work for fun as long as possible because otherwise life is meaningless" is classic boomer mentality.

You can see this exact pattern time and time again in other threads about FIRE. It's based on the traditional values your generation grew up with. Young people don't think like this.

You proved my theory right. Don't you think it's weird that I knew right away how old you were based on your posts? Think about it. It's cliche "traditional values" type of thinking.
Justin. That’s really interesting. I’m 61 now so I suppose I would be a boomer.

I transitioned away from my law partnership at age 53, which was actually a few years later than planned because of the great recession. As I reflect on your comments. I’m reminded that I’m one of a few colleagues my age in our community (in any business or profession). And interestingly it seems others that might be similarly situated had no interest in pursuing that option. We had enough money and didn’t need anymore so leaving in my peak earning years was not material. That’s just background, because I have a question for you.

When you say young people don’t think like this, how do they think about jobs and retirement in the like? And what age group generally are you speaking about. Thank you.
Just to clarify, I didn't mean that all old people share the same views as afan. I'm just saying the ones that DO are likely to be from that generation because it's an incredibly old fashioned mentality. There definitely will be people 60+ that DON'T share the same mentality.

I find that millennials (mid-30s and below) don't really see jobs like that. Working is a means to an end (making money so you can pay the bills and fund your retirement). That's not to say that millennials don't care about liking what we do. Obviously, you want to find something that you're passionate about and have that as your job.

Most people (even millenials) aren't aware of the concept of early retirement so they naturally expect to work until retirement age. But they're not actively holding the philosophy "everyone should find your passion and work til you die because life isn't worth living otherwise." Most of us would rather do nothing or whatever we wanted to, even if we currently have our dream jobs.
Interesting. The millennials I know do not view "working as a means to an end". They DO have a different perspective on work, wanting more flexibility in work schedules and timing, but are also are WAY more willing to be connected to work 24/7/365 than older generations. Is this better or worse? No idea. But it is different. But just working so they can earn enough to "get outta here"? I have not observed that in higher proportion in millennials than any other generation

JustinR - I am sorry your job is making your life is so miserable...

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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by willthrill81 »

abuss368 wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:54 pm Working longer does not have to be an either / or decision. I think too many examples show it as that.

The power and flexibility of working part time can provide a HUGE benefit both financially and mentally.

Prospective retirees can often ease and transition into retirement.

Tony
Some careers allow for that, while others don't. In my career, working part-time would result in a pay cut of about 85-90% (and even more when you factor in the loss of benefits) compared to what I'm earning now. With a penalty that steep, staying in the career is indeed an either/or decision when it comes to finances.
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by abuss368 »

I would love to work on a golf course when I retire!

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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by zaboomafoozarg »

I gave up on jobs being meaningful about 6 months into my career.

Every job I've had since then has been about the money and benefits. The day I can afford to bail, I'm bailing for good.

As a generational anecdote, my grandpa felt the same way and retired the very first day he was able to in his 50s. He's always claimed that he wouldn't have survived if he had to work until 65.

On the other hand, my other grandpa mowed lawns until he was 75.
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by flyingaway »

willthrill81 wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 9:42 pm
abuss368 wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:54 pm Working longer does not have to be an either / or decision. I think too many examples show it as that.

The power and flexibility of working part time can provide a HUGE benefit both financially and mentally.

Prospective retirees can often ease and transition into retirement.

Tony
Some careers allow for that, while others don't. In my career, working part-time would result in a pay cut of about 85-90% (and even more when you factor in the loss of benefits) compared to what I'm earning now. With a penalty that steep, staying in the career is indeed an either/or decision when it comes to finances.
Yes. I call that a one-way ticket. It does not make any sense to go back to teach a class for $2,000 as an adjunct, when you can teach the same class for $20,000 as a tenured professor.
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by flyingaway »

JoeRetire wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 1:33 pm
qwertyjazz wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:38 amNot sure if that is a bad trade off though. I lost my 20s being in school/high work hours. Spending that time when young and healthier on fun stuff seems like it might have been a better deal. But now my job is not that bad. Mileage on this clearly varies
Better to retire at 18
Have fun for 30 years or so
Go to school, work lots of hours (and "lose years"?) at 50 or so
Continue to work hard until you die

It's an option, I guess. Good luck with that.
How do you get money to have fun for 30 young years if you do not have a rich father. Maybe the government can sponsor a loan?
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by Wannaretireearly »

TheNightsToCome wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 6:45 pm
abuss368 wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 4:42 pm Another point to consider is folks who plan a mid career change. That may necessitate a longer career to achieve financial freedom.

Tony
I recommend working to an older age in exchange for multiple retirements along the way, as long as you can swing it.

I took a year between college and med school to dance for a jazz company (best year of my life), and took a year at 34 after selling a critical care staffing business to ski, dive, surf, travel, try (and fail) to write a novel, attempt hang gliding over Black's Beach, and grow a long mane.

I burned out at 42 with enough for a middle class FIRE (though I didn't want to retire), took 2 1/2 years off, then worked 4 enjoyable years as an equity analyst, left to earn an MBA, then started a hobby RIA in my hometown surrounded by my extended family, before ultimately returning to cardiology.

When I was young my career just got in the way of my life. Though it is still stressful, work suits me much better in old age. I credit declining testosterone levels. :happy

I can't leap over my old copy of Braunwald's Heart Disease any more, so I don't have the option of performing for a dance company in retirement. Technically, I could still ski, dive, and surf, but not as well, and it wouldn't be as much fun, and I no longer have the same interest in those physical pursuits. Glad I didn't wait.

My portfolio is much smaller thanks to career detours, but life has been much richer.
We have a winner! What an enviable life journey
Touche to going with your gut, taking risks, and not complying to societal norms.
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by Wannaretireearly »

Only got to page 5, catch the rest later.

I predict an acceleration of retirement at the senior exec level at companies where most have enough $ to live two lifetimes (and generally jobs that are soul and time sucking). I believe this pandemic will make a significant % retire and live their retirement dreams, travel, whatever.
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by skipper »

Update: I decided to buy the BBQ pit, not change my retirement date, and not increase (or decrease) my savings rate. Stickin' it to the man!
by Hyperchicken » Tue Feb 13, 2024 2:28 pm | | ... Dang. That rat and pellet thing is pretty depressing. | Guess I better get back to work.
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by abuss368 »

skipper wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 5:24 am Update: I decided to buy the BBQ pit, not change my retirement date, and not increase (or decrease) my savings rate. Stickin' it to the man!
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by abuss368 »

zaboomafoozarg wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:14 pm I gave up on jobs being meaningful about 6 months into my career.

Every job I've had since then has been about the money and benefits. The day I can afford to bail, I'm bailing for good.

As a generational anecdote, my grandpa felt the same way and retired the very first day he was able to in his 50s. He's always claimed that he wouldn't have survived if he had to work until 65.

On the other hand, my other grandpa mowed lawns until he was 75.
Being financially secure and having the FLEXIBILITY to do what you want to key!

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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by Ivygirl »

AlwaysLearningMore wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:03 pm Much of the "my job is sapping my life" comes down to perception and choices.

Since the 13th Amendment to the US Constitution was ratified in 1836, no American has been irrevocably bound to their job. Those who remain do so voluntarily. Proof? Quit and see if they can force you back. More proof? If the job were truly physically dangerous, would the worker return the next day? If so, then bring it to OSHA's attention https://tinyurl.com/nmrc2q8

Psychologically draining? Keeping them from "quality time" with family, going to art exhibits, concerts, etc.? The worker who stays at their job has made the conscious decision to do so.

When I was in training, a fellow trainee was whining about the long hours, stress and "not enough time with family," and our SO said "Get off the cross, someone else needs the wood!" That was immediately followed by a direct query as to whether that trainee desired to be relieved of their position "so they could do what they wanted with their life." At that time the whiner replied "no" and (mercifully) we heard no more of that at work; it's not good for workplace cohesion.
On the other hand... I'm watching in real time the psychological crack-up of a supervisor, for the second time. Both were exceptionally competent, reliable, experienced, valuable women. Both were worked into destruction by irrational expectations from the employer and a dread of being thought a "whiner." Personality changes, physical degradation such as back problems, reliance on stimulants/sedatives to power up and then try to power down and sleep. Paranoia at the end. Loss of joy in life. Alienation from family as they tried to be a hero and do all that they were told, which was impossible.

The harder you work, the more humble your mind, the more reliable you are, the less you ask for yourself - the more likely your company is to kill you. Thus my experience of four decades. It's difficult to believe. It happens insidiously. If one is lucky there is a health scare which can galvanize a person to save herself. Otherwise, how does one know where the breaking point is? Is it when a slug of alcohol is a necessity to escape the pain of the day? Is it when that slug is necessary every day? What about the intermittent pain in your left arm? Or the fact your family didn't invite you to an important event, because they figure you'd refuse because you had to work? Now that is a painful surprise.

You say "leave" but a person after age 50 may have finally attained seniority and a decent wage and has no desire to start over, at the bottom, in another job that will probably be exactly like this one.

There is another choice, which is to see the deadly dysfunction clearly and draw the line. One's nature may be to do one's best, to sacrifice self, to get the job done at all costs and not "whine." That's a good way to get killed. The other choice is to take care of oneself and let the company fail. It's their own fault, after all, for being such [word sure to be moderated as not family friendly].
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by CyclingDuo »

abuss368 wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 9:47 pm I would love to work on a golf course when I retire!

Tony
My father did that when he retired to AZ. He worked part time at a multi-course complex and in addition to the part-time wages, got the benefit of free golf. He played three rounds a week with his "buds" and got free green fees and cart with each round. So he saved $100 a round between the green fee and cart. $300 a week X 52 weeks = $15,600 benefit per year.

He did that in his Go-Go years, Slow-Go years and initial years of entering the No-Go years of retirement. It was a good retirement "gig" for him because at least his golfing expense in retirement didn't have to come out of his portfolio draw or SS.

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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by smitcat »

abuss368 wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:54 pm Working longer does not have to be an either / or decision. I think too many examples show it as that.

The power and flexibility of working part time can provide a HUGE benefit both financially and mentally.

Prospective retirees can often ease and transition into retirement.

Tony
Agreed - there are a bunch of really smart folks here that do not consider any other method to generate income other than their specific 'pay to play' current career. I always ask myself why that is the case.
After one layoff and mid careers we ended up starting our own business's none of which was really related to what we had done in the past. Over time we lowered the number of hours we worked and most of the time we did work we had a lot of flexability in timing.
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by smitcat »

flyingaway wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:19 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 9:42 pm
abuss368 wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:54 pm Working longer does not have to be an either / or decision. I think too many examples show it as that.

The power and flexibility of working part time can provide a HUGE benefit both financially and mentally.

Prospective retirees can often ease and transition into retirement.

Tony
Some careers allow for that, while others don't. In my career, working part-time would result in a pay cut of about 85-90% (and even more when you factor in the loss of benefits) compared to what I'm earning now. With a penalty that steep, staying in the career is indeed an either/or decision when it comes to finances.
Yes. I call that a one-way ticket. It does not make any sense to go back to teach a class for $2,000 as an adjunct, when you can teach the same class for $20,000 as a tenured professor.
We thought that way as well untill we really did some research on numerous business's we could start/own as a method to generate an income.
It worked out really well for us and the results 20+ years later have all been positive.
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by smitcat »

Ivygirl wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 7:49 am
AlwaysLearningMore wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:03 pm Much of the "my job is sapping my life" comes down to perception and choices.

Since the 13th Amendment to the US Constitution was ratified in 1836, no American has been irrevocably bound to their job. Those who remain do so voluntarily. Proof? Quit and see if they can force you back. More proof? If the job were truly physically dangerous, would the worker return the next day? If so, then bring it to OSHA's attention https://tinyurl.com/nmrc2q8

Psychologically draining? Keeping them from "quality time" with family, going to art exhibits, concerts, etc.? The worker who stays at their job has made the conscious decision to do so.

When I was in training, a fellow trainee was whining about the long hours, stress and "not enough time with family," and our SO said "Get off the cross, someone else needs the wood!" That was immediately followed by a direct query as to whether that trainee desired to be relieved of their position "so they could do what they wanted with their life." At that time the whiner replied "no" and (mercifully) we heard no more of that at work; it's not good for workplace cohesion.
On the other hand... I'm watching in real time the psychological crack-up of a supervisor, for the second time. Both were exceptionally competent, reliable, experienced, valuable women. Both were worked into destruction by irrational expectations from the employer and a dread of being thought a "whiner." Personality changes, physical degradation such as back problems, reliance on stimulants/sedatives to power up and then try to power down and sleep. Paranoia at the end. Loss of joy in life. Alienation from family as they tried to be a hero and do all that they were told, which was impossible.

The harder you work, the more humble your mind, the more reliable you are, the less you ask for yourself - the more likely your company is to kill you. Thus my experience of four decades. It's difficult to believe. It happens insidiously. If one is lucky there is a health scare which can galvanize a person to save herself. Otherwise, how does one know where the breaking point is? Is it when a slug of alcohol is a necessity to escape the pain of the day? Is it when that slug is necessary every day? What about the intermittent pain in your left arm? Or the fact your family didn't invite you to an important event, because they figure you'd refuse because you had to work? Now that is a painful surprise.

You say "leave" but a person after age 50 may have finally attained seniority and a decent wage and has no desire to start over, at the bottom, in another job that will probably be exactly like this one.

There is another choice, which is to see the deadly dysfunction clearly and draw the line. One's nature may be to do one's best, to sacrifice self, to get the job done at all costs and not "whine." That's a good way to get killed. The other choice is to take care of oneself and let the company fail. It's their own fault, after all, for being such [word sure to be moderated as not family friendly].
"The harder you work, the more humble your mind, the more reliable you are, the less you ask for yourself - the more likely your company is to kill you."

Work for yourself - problem solved
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by Normchad »

Wrench wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 7:10 pm
JustinR wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 8:04 pm
J295 wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:49 pm
JustinR wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:13 pm
afan wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:07 pm

No direct answer.

Old enough that I could retire. Young enough that I anticipate a long working career ahead of me.

What does the age of one person on here have to do with changing jobs vs retiring in response to job dissatisfaction? Or what retirement may have meant in years past?
Because "everyone should find their passion job and work for fun as long as possible because otherwise life is meaningless" is classic boomer mentality.

You can see this exact pattern time and time again in other threads about FIRE. It's based on the traditional values your generation grew up with. Young people don't think like this.

You proved my theory right. Don't you think it's weird that I knew right away how old you were based on your posts? Think about it. It's cliche "traditional values" type of thinking.
Justin. That’s really interesting. I’m 61 now so I suppose I would be a boomer.

I transitioned away from my law partnership at age 53, which was actually a few years later than planned because of the great recession. As I reflect on your comments. I’m reminded that I’m one of a few colleagues my age in our community (in any business or profession). And interestingly it seems others that might be similarly situated had no interest in pursuing that option. We had enough money and didn’t need anymore so leaving in my peak earning years was not material. That’s just background, because I have a question for you.

When you say young people don’t think like this, how do they think about jobs and retirement in the like? And what age group generally are you speaking about. Thank you.
Just to clarify, I didn't mean that all old people share the same views as afan. I'm just saying the ones that DO are likely to be from that generation because it's an incredibly old fashioned mentality. There definitely will be people 60+ that DON'T share the same mentality.

I find that millennials (mid-30s and below) don't really see jobs like that. Working is a means to an end (making money so you can pay the bills and fund your retirement). That's not to say that millennials don't care about liking what we do. Obviously, you want to find something that you're passionate about and have that as your job.

Most people (even millenials) aren't aware of the concept of early retirement so they naturally expect to work until retirement age. But they're not actively holding the philosophy "everyone should find your passion and work til you die because life isn't worth living otherwise." Most of us would rather do nothing or whatever we wanted to, even if we currently have our dream jobs.
Interesting. The millennials I know do not view "working as a means to an end". They DO have a different perspective on work, wanting more flexibility in work schedules and timing, but are also are WAY more willing to be connected to work 24/7/365 than older generations. Is this better or worse? No idea. But it is different. But just working so they can earn enough to "get outta here"? I have not observed that in higher proportion in millennials than any other generation

JustinR - I am sorry your job is making your life is so miserable...

Wrench.
This is very much what I see with the millennials as well. In my opinion, they have a healthier, more balanced approach to their life than my contemporaries do.
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