The Power of Working Longer

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afan
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by afan »

Pretending a job that does not *actually* threaten one's life leads to a shorter lifespan leads to cloudy thinking. There are some jobs that really do shorten one's lifetime. Thankfully, technological advances and regulation make those fewer every year.

I think that, as acknowledged in this thread, most people who say "My job is sapping the life out of me" really mean "My job is not sapping the life out of me, but I don't like it".
The rationale response to something that is *actually* threatening one's life is to get out as fast as possible. Even if it means being unemployed.
The rational response to a safe job that one does not like is to look for a different job.
Acting as if a safe job were life threatening leads to cloudy thinking and bad decisions.

Many years of retirement as a common experience requires things that the vast majority of humans did not have.
One must have the ability to accumulate enough to live on for many years. When there were not well developed markets and food distribution systems, or money to pay for them, people ate what they could grow or gather. Quitting work meant quitting eating.
Even if you could store up a years' worth of food, it would spoil or be eaten by animals.
By the same token, almost all of the work was hard physical labor. People who became too frail to do it died.
People did not live that long, so there could not be a large share of the population over 60.

Excellent reference willthrill contributed. It hardly supports the notion that "everyone" will quit their jobs as soon as they can. Substantial majorities get satisfaction and identity from their jobs, not just money. Only a minority say that the job is valued exclusively as a way to make ends meet.

It is highly unlikely that your job is shortening your life.
If it is, quit as soon as you can. But that does not require retirement. Most jobs are quite safe. Get one of those.
If you don't like your safe job, then look for a safe job you would prefer. Again, retirement not necessary.
If you are convinced that any safe job would be intolerable, then ask yourself "why is that?" Is it something inherent to working, independent of hyperbolic claims about sucking life out? Perhaps examine that, rather than quitting?

Just trying to get the reasoning to match reality.
We don't know how to beat the market on a risk-adjusted basis, and we don't know anyone that does know either | --Swedroe | We assume that markets are efficient, that prices are right | --Fama
AlwaysLearningMore
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by AlwaysLearningMore »

" Leisure choices, which are complementary with the writer's work, are not conducive to long life."
‘Mamas, don't let your babies grow up to be novelists.’ Constance Casey, book editor, 1988.
Writers die young: The impact of work and leisure on longevity https://tinyurl.com/y3j33tay

Retirement is best when you have a lot to live on, and a lot to live for.
Retirement is best when you have a lot to live on, and a lot to live for. * None of what I post is investment advice.* | FIRE'd July 2023
coachd50
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by coachd50 »

afan wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 5:17 pm Pretending a job that does not *actually* threaten one's life leads to a shorter lifespan leads to cloudy thinking. There are some jobs that really do shorten one's lifetime. Thankfully, technological advances and regulation make those fewer every year.

I think that, as acknowledged in this thread, most people who say "My job is sapping the life out of me" really mean "My job is not sapping the life out of me, but I don't like it".
The rationale response to something that is *actually* threatening one's life is to get out as fast as possible. Even if it means being unemployed.
The rational response to a safe job that one does not like is to look for a different job.
Acting as if a safe job were life threatening leads to cloudy thinking and bad decisions.
One thing here though, heighten levels of stress ABSOLUTELY have been linked with higher incidences of cardiovascular disease.
AlwaysLearningMore
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by AlwaysLearningMore »

interestediniras wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 3:23 pm Both "I don't like my job" and "my job is sapping the life out of me" are subjective statements of personal experience and emotion and claiming that one is "perfectly logical" whereas another is "nonsense" is itself an incoherent distinction. I actually legitimately feel that my job saps the life out of me -- who are you to dispute that characterization? Sure, my job isn't literally poisoning my body the same way a coal mine would, but it's no exaggeration that I feel my job deprives me of mental, emotional, and physical energy which substantially diminishes my experienced quality of life -- I think that is a "perfectly logical" basis to claim that my job indeed saps the life out of me.
Hyperbolic statements about subjective interpretations of job stress may appear to minimize the job stress and hazzards that can literally sap the life out of a worker https://tinyurl.com/vekv6uz
* Loggers
* Commercial fishing industry
* Roofers
* Structural iron and steel workers
* Electrical power-line installers and repairers

Between 2006 and 2020, 26% of the 17,645 active duty military deaths were killed while serving in overseas contingency operations. (source: Congressional Research Service, In Focus, July 2020).
Retirement is best when you have a lot to live on, and a lot to live for. * None of what I post is investment advice.* | FIRE'd July 2023
afan
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by afan »

interestediniras wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 3:23 pm
This is a bizarre claim. Both "I don't like my job" and "my job is sapping the life out of me" are subjective statements of personal experience and emotion and claiming that one is "perfectly logical" whereas another is "nonsense" is itself an incoherent distinction. I actually legitimately feel that my job saps the life out of me -- who are you to dispute that characterization? Sure, my job isn't literally poisoning my body the same way a coal mine would, but it's no exaggeration that I feel my job deprives me of mental, emotional, and physical energy which substantially diminishes my experienced quality of life -- I think that is a "perfectly logical" basis to claim that my job indeed saps the life out of me.
Well, no. "My job is sapping the life out of me" is a statement of fact. If it were true, then it would be shortening one's life. For the vast majority of working people, it would be a false statement.

"I often feel dispirited and express my unhappiness by saying that my job is sapping the life out of me" could be true. But it is a very different claim.
interestediniras wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 3:23 pm As you yourself acknowledge, this is a correlative statement with no necessary bearing on the causative relationship between work and longevity.
It is more than just a correlation. There are data that support the possible causal link between longer working life and greater longevity. I was commenting that it is a difficult area to study. One approach is to use a long lag time. If you look at whether people were working a week ago, you get the health confound. If you look at mortality years or decades later, you attenuate this effect.

For example
https://link.springer.com/article/10.10 ... 20%5B17%5D.


afan wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 1:20 pmYou are not "giving up life" by working. You are selling your time and abilities, but you remain alive.
interestediniras wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 3:23 pm Last I checked, I'm mortal and have a finite amount of time to live.
Right. But your finite lifetime does not appear to be reduced by working longer.
We don't know how to beat the market on a risk-adjusted basis, and we don't know anyone that does know either | --Swedroe | We assume that markets are efficient, that prices are right | --Fama
rockstar
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by rockstar »

The system is rigged to keep us working as long as possible.
H-Town
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by H-Town »

rockstar wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 6:01 pm The system is rigged to keep us working as long as possible.
Realize that, we need to turn earned income into passive income as fast as possible.

The rigged system target people saving 20% or less and plan to work until retirement age. If you want to change that, you gotta save more, starting with at least $1 save for every $1 spent.
Time is the ultimate currency.
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willthrill81
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by willthrill81 »

rockstar wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 6:01 pm The system is rigged to keep us working as long as possible.
Those for whom FIRE is truly a top priority usually seem to find a way to make it happen. Most just aren't willing to make the sacrifices needed to bring it to pass.

"You can afford anything but not everything."
-Paula Panta
The Sensible Steward
H-Town
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by H-Town »

willthrill81 wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 6:38 pm
rockstar wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 6:01 pm The system is rigged to keep us working as long as possible.
Those for whom FIRE is truly a top priority usually seem to find a way to make it happen. Most just aren't willing to make the sacrifices needed to bring it to pass.

"You can afford anything but not everything."
-Paula Panta
Very true. If FIRE is your focus, not many things can stop you from achieving it.
Time is the ultimate currency.
Independent George
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by Independent George »

afan wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 5:51 pm
interestediniras wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 3:23 pm This is a bizarre claim. Both "I don't like my job" and "my job is sapping the life out of me" are subjective statements of personal experience and emotion and claiming that one is "perfectly logical" whereas another is "nonsense" is itself an incoherent distinction. I actually legitimately feel that my job saps the life out of me -- who are you to dispute that characterization? Sure, my job isn't literally poisoning my body the same way a coal mine would, but it's no exaggeration that I feel my job deprives me of mental, emotional, and physical energy which substantially diminishes my experienced quality of life -- I think that is a "perfectly logical" basis to claim that my job indeed saps the life out of me.
Well, no. "My job is sapping the life out of me" is a statement of fact. If it were true, then it would be shortening one's life. For the vast majority of working people, it would be a false statement.

"I often feel dispirited and express my unhappiness by saying that my job is sapping the life out of me" could be true. But it is a very different claim.
It is hyperbolic for many people, but not all of them. Stress is a real thing, and at high and sustained levels does indeed shorten life even - this lecture from Stanford biologist Robert Sapolsky does a great job of explaining the actual physiological effects of sustained stress. The problem is that we use the same word for someone who has put of filing his taxes until the last minute, and someone who just had to attend their best friend's funeral. Work stress is can mean having to deliver a speech in front of clients, or it can mean getting sexually harassed on a daily basis by your company's highest paid salesman; we use the same word to describe both.
...Some of it's got to do with nuts & bolts biology - what your liver does, with cholesterol and stuff like that... but some of it's got to do with questions nobody's ever had to ask before in medicine. Totally bizarre questions like, "What's your psychological makeup?", or "What's your social status?", or, "How do people of your social status get treated in your society?". Or how about this one - get the answer to this one, and you'll have done more good for the health of humanity than anyone since like Jonas Salk inventing the polio vaccine: "Why is it, that when we feel like nobody loves us, we eat Oreo cookies?"

Answer that one, and you have just solved half the cases of diabetes in this country. This is totally bizarre stuff that has something to do with which of us are healthy or sick - that has everything to do with it. And what we've entered is this very strange world, when we look at the diseases that do us in - these diseases of slow accumulation of damage from lifestyle over time - these are predominantly disease that can be caused by, or be made worse, by stress.
interestediniras
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by interestediniras »

afan wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 5:51 pm
interestediniras wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 3:23 pm
This is a bizarre claim. Both "I don't like my job" and "my job is sapping the life out of me" are subjective statements of personal experience and emotion and claiming that one is "perfectly logical" whereas another is "nonsense" is itself an incoherent distinction. I actually legitimately feel that my job saps the life out of me -- who are you to dispute that characterization? Sure, my job isn't literally poisoning my body the same way a coal mine would, but it's no exaggeration that I feel my job deprives me of mental, emotional, and physical energy which substantially diminishes my experienced quality of life -- I think that is a "perfectly logical" basis to claim that my job indeed saps the life out of me.
Well, no. "My job is sapping the life out of me" is a statement of fact. If it were true, then it would be shortening one's life. For the vast majority of working people, it would be a false statement.

"I often feel dispirited and express my unhappiness by saying that my job is sapping the life out of me" could be true. But it is a very different claim.
Suggesting that physical harm is 'legitimate' whereas the continued and unceasing mental and emotional pain inflicted upon me by my job are somehow 'not legitimate' is offensive and rude. You are choosing to apply a narrow and arbitrary definition of what it means for something to negatively affect one's "life" and you are free to apply that to your own perception, but I think that denying others' lived experiences here just because you have some semantic disagreement with the words they used to describe their experiences -- without thinking about the actual substance or meaning of their complaints -- reflects a lack of maturity and empathy on your part.
interestediniras
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by interestediniras »

afan wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 5:51 pm Right. But your finite lifetime does not appear to be reduced by working longer.
Putting aside the negative health effects of stress, it's a purely semantic argument to say that effectively involuntary labor that takes up large chunks of your finite lifespan isn't functionally comparable to a reduction in your overall lifespan. Obviously they aren't exactly and precisely the same thing, but refusing to acknowledge that it is legitimate to compare the two is, IMHO, little more than a crude psychological defense mechanism to avoid grappling with the reality of one's own eventual mortality.
smitcat
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by smitcat »

interestediniras wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 8:11 pm
afan wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 5:51 pm
interestediniras wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 3:23 pm
This is a bizarre claim. Both "I don't like my job" and "my job is sapping the life out of me" are subjective statements of personal experience and emotion and claiming that one is "perfectly logical" whereas another is "nonsense" is itself an incoherent distinction. I actually legitimately feel that my job saps the life out of me -- who are you to dispute that characterization? Sure, my job isn't literally poisoning my body the same way a coal mine would, but it's no exaggeration that I feel my job deprives me of mental, emotional, and physical energy which substantially diminishes my experienced quality of life -- I think that is a "perfectly logical" basis to claim that my job indeed saps the life out of me.
Well, no. "My job is sapping the life out of me" is a statement of fact. If it were true, then it would be shortening one's life. For the vast majority of working people, it would be a false statement.

"I often feel dispirited and express my unhappiness by saying that my job is sapping the life out of me" could be true. But it is a very different claim.
Suggesting that physical harm is 'legitimate' whereas the continued and unceasing mental and emotional pain inflicted upon me by my job are somehow 'not legitimate' is offensive and rude. You are choosing to apply a narrow and arbitrary definition of what it means for something to negatively affect one's "life" and you are free to apply that to your own perception, but I think that denying others' lived experiences here just because you have some semantic disagreement with the words they used to describe their experiences -- without thinking about the actual substance or meaning of their complaints -- reflects a lack of maturity and empathy on your part.
"I actually legitimately feel that my job saps the life out of me --"
"Suggesting that physical harm is 'legitimate' whereas the continued and unceasing mental and emotional pain inflicted upon me by my job are somehow 'not legitimate' is offensive and rude."

Get another job as soon as possible...
JustinR
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by JustinR »

afan wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 5:17 pm Pretending a job that does not *actually* threaten one's life leads to a shorter lifespan leads to cloudy thinking. There are some jobs that really do shorten one's lifetime. Thankfully, technological advances and regulation make those fewer every year.

I think that, as acknowledged in this thread, most people who say "My job is sapping the life out of me" really mean "My job is not sapping the life out of me, but I don't like it".
The rationale response to something that is *actually* threatening one's life is to get out as fast as possible. Even if it means being unemployed.
The rational response to a safe job that one does not like is to look for a different job.
Acting as if a safe job were life threatening leads to cloudy thinking and bad decisions.

Many years of retirement as a common experience requires things that the vast majority of humans did not have.
One must have the ability to accumulate enough to live on for many years. When there were not well developed markets and food distribution systems, or money to pay for them, people ate what they could grow or gather. Quitting work meant quitting eating.
Even if you could store up a years' worth of food, it would spoil or be eaten by animals.
By the same token, almost all of the work was hard physical labor. People who became too frail to do it died.
People did not live that long, so there could not be a large share of the population over 60.

Excellent reference willthrill contributed. It hardly supports the notion that "everyone" will quit their jobs as soon as they can. Substantial majorities get satisfaction and identity from their jobs, not just money. Only a minority say that the job is valued exclusively as a way to make ends meet.

It is highly unlikely that your job is shortening your life.
If it is, quit as soon as you can. But that does not require retirement. Most jobs are quite safe. Get one of those.
If you don't like your safe job, then look for a safe job you would prefer. Again, retirement not necessary.
If you are convinced that any safe job would be intolerable, then ask yourself "why is that?" Is it something inherent to working, independent of hyperbolic claims about sucking life out? Perhaps examine that, rather than quitting?

Just trying to get the reasoning to match reality.
Just curious, how old are you?
rockstar
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by rockstar »

H-Town wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 6:20 pm
rockstar wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 6:01 pm The system is rigged to keep us working as long as possible.
Realize that, we need to turn earned income into passive income as fast as possible.

The rigged system target people saving 20% or less and plan to work until retirement age. If you want to change that, you gotta save more, starting with at least $1 save for every $1 spent.
The problem is healthcare costs. They keep going up. And you can't get Medicare early. If your plan is to save more and spend it all on health insurance, then go for it.
Grt2bOutdoors
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by Grt2bOutdoors »

willthrill81 wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 11:58 am Intuitively, working longer seems like a great way to combat low expected returns from stocks and bonds over the next decade and retirees living longer today than they did decades ago.

But a very big flaw in this advice is the fact that over half of today's retirees retired involuntarily.
Through 2016, our analysis found that between the time older workers enter the study and when they leave paid employment, 56 percent are laid off at least once or leave jobs under such financially damaging circumstances that it’s likely they were pushed out rather than choosing to go voluntarily.
https://www.propublica.org/article/olde ... retirement

This isn't unique to the above referenced publication either. Several data sources indicate that slightly over half of retirees were either pushed out of the workforce by layoffs or pulled out due to their own circumstances, usually their own poor health or that of a family member they must care for. And the data indicate that the situation is even worse for older workers today due to the issues stemming from COVID19.

Consequently, planning on working past age ~65 is a risky strategy, though some may genuinely have no either choice. While many will be able to pull it off, the odds are not in their favor. Saving more earlier is the more sure strategy.
One of my previous employers had a large segment of its employees in the late 50’s to mid 60’s age bracket. When rough times at the company hit, this population group was disproportionately affected. Finding new employment at equivalent income levels can be difficult, try finding any employment is even more so.
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions
smitcat
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by smitcat »

willthrill81 wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 4:21 pm
AlwaysLearningMore wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 4:15 pm
interestediniras wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 3:35 pm
AlwaysLearningMore wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 3:28 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 3:22 pm

And what impact does this entire forum have on that, much less each of us as individuals? Nothing.

The populations of developed nations around the world have been growing older for decades now. If you're suggesting that this will have big impacts on programs like SS, you're obviously correct. But that's beyond our power as individuals to do anything meaningful about.
If SS benefits are reduced because of a burgeoning number of retirees with too-few workers to support them, then retirees might "have to stay productive."
You're free to sacrifice decades of your life to your employer for the general health of Social Security while I enjoy my early retirement.
What I think Prof. Bodie was hinting at is that for many people, a meaningful reduction in federal benefits (there's more than Social Security, of course) would truncate retirement plans.
We already know that's coming. The last time I looked, the SSA was estimating that benefits would be reduced across the board by about 20% by 2034, but that was pre-COVID. So at a minimum, it already seems prudent to plan on getting less than your 'promised' benefit after that time.
I do not know how Covid will affect SS - but it does occurr to me that Covid is very much 'tilted' to affecting older folks which may have the opposite affect.
In addition - there are many ways to balance the funds like the USA has done in past history which did not directly affect payments.
smitcat
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by smitcat »

Grt2bOutdoors wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 9:28 am
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 11:58 am Intuitively, working longer seems like a great way to combat low expected returns from stocks and bonds over the next decade and retirees living longer today than they did decades ago.

But a very big flaw in this advice is the fact that over half of today's retirees retired involuntarily.
Through 2016, our analysis found that between the time older workers enter the study and when they leave paid employment, 56 percent are laid off at least once or leave jobs under such financially damaging circumstances that it’s likely they were pushed out rather than choosing to go voluntarily.
https://www.propublica.org/article/olde ... retirement

This isn't unique to the above referenced publication either. Several data sources indicate that slightly over half of retirees were either pushed out of the workforce by layoffs or pulled out due to their own circumstances, usually their own poor health or that of a family member they must care for. And the data indicate that the situation is even worse for older workers today due to the issues stemming from COVID19.

Consequently, planning on working past age ~65 is a risky strategy, though some may genuinely have no either choice. While many will be able to pull it off, the odds are not in their favor. Saving more earlier is the more sure strategy.
One of my previous employers had a large segment of its employees in the late 50’s to mid 60’s age bracket. When rough times at the company hit, this population group was disproportionately affected. Finding new employment at equivalent income levels can be difficult, try finding any employment is even more so.
Best to plan much earlier then so you have a backup for income.
Grt2bOutdoors
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by Grt2bOutdoors »

bobcat2 wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 12:39 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 12:17 pm
rich126 wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 12:13 pm And sadly more than a few people don't live into their late 70s or 80s to really gain any benefit from it. I had a friend pass away around 60 last year who fortunately retired around 56 so at least he got a few years of retirement enjoyment. Recently a coworker delayed retirement due to covid (he wanted to travel in retirement) and unfortunately died due to an issue with cancer.
It's sad but true. Both of my paternal grandparents died before they reached 50. My FiL passed away at age 65. Both of my maternal grandparents passed by age 82.
All these people would apparently have been happier saving less per year and spending more per year while they were alive. These situations are negatively affected both by high saving rates as well as late retirement dates.

BobK
And therein lies the quandary, we know what date and year we are born. We don’t know the date and year we pass on. If we look at the mortality tables from Social Security, not many are going to see age 90.
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions
Grt2bOutdoors
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by Grt2bOutdoors »

smitcat wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 9:32 am
Grt2bOutdoors wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 9:28 am
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 11:58 am Intuitively, working longer seems like a great way to combat low expected returns from stocks and bonds over the next decade and retirees living longer today than they did decades ago.

But a very big flaw in this advice is the fact that over half of today's retirees retired involuntarily.
Through 2016, our analysis found that between the time older workers enter the study and when they leave paid employment, 56 percent are laid off at least once or leave jobs under such financially damaging circumstances that it’s likely they were pushed out rather than choosing to go voluntarily.
https://www.propublica.org/article/olde ... retirement

This isn't unique to the above referenced publication either. Several data sources indicate that slightly over half of retirees were either pushed out of the workforce by layoffs or pulled out due to their own circumstances, usually their own poor health or that of a family member they must care for. And the data indicate that the situation is even worse for older workers today due to the issues stemming from COVID19.

Consequently, planning on working past age ~65 is a risky strategy, though some may genuinely have no either choice. While many will be able to pull it off, the odds are not in their favor. Saving more earlier is the more sure strategy.
One of my previous employers had a large segment of its employees in the late 50’s to mid 60’s age bracket. When rough times at the company hit, this population group was disproportionately affected. Finding new employment at equivalent income levels can be difficult, try finding any employment is even more so.
Best to plan much earlier then so you have a backup for income.
Sure, and I’m in agreement with you - IF you have sufficient income to save more beyond basic expenses or you can reinvent yourself to find other suitable work. I didn’t mention that this particular employer had a type of cradle to retirement mentality until it didn’t. Basically a lot of employees were caught flat footed when the bottom dropped out. No one at that employer believes like that anymore.
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions
smitcat
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by smitcat »

Grt2bOutdoors wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 9:37 am
smitcat wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 9:32 am
Grt2bOutdoors wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 9:28 am
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 11:58 am Intuitively, working longer seems like a great way to combat low expected returns from stocks and bonds over the next decade and retirees living longer today than they did decades ago.

But a very big flaw in this advice is the fact that over half of today's retirees retired involuntarily.
Through 2016, our analysis found that between the time older workers enter the study and when they leave paid employment, 56 percent are laid off at least once or leave jobs under such financially damaging circumstances that it’s likely they were pushed out rather than choosing to go voluntarily.
https://www.propublica.org/article/olde ... retirement

This isn't unique to the above referenced publication either. Several data sources indicate that slightly over half of retirees were either pushed out of the workforce by layoffs or pulled out due to their own circumstances, usually their own poor health or that of a family member they must care for. And the data indicate that the situation is even worse for older workers today due to the issues stemming from COVID19.

Consequently, planning on working past age ~65 is a risky strategy, though some may genuinely have no either choice. While many will be able to pull it off, the odds are not in their favor. Saving more earlier is the more sure strategy.
One of my previous employers had a large segment of its employees in the late 50’s to mid 60’s age bracket. When rough times at the company hit, this population group was disproportionately affected. Finding new employment at equivalent income levels can be difficult, try finding any employment is even more so.
Best to plan much earlier then so you have a backup for income.
Sure, and I’m in agreement with you - IF you have sufficient income to save more beyond basic expenses or you can reinvent yourself to find other suitable work. I didn’t mention that this particular employer had a type of cradle to retirement mentality until it didn’t. Basically a lot of employees were caught flat footed when the bottom dropped out. No one at that employer believes like that anymore.
"I didn’t mention that this particular employer had a type of cradle to retirement mentality until it didn’t. Basically a lot of employees were caught flat footed when the bottom dropped out."
Exactly what happened with us - and back then it was much less common to think the 'unthinkable' could happen.
I am still surprised at the number of folks on this site that feel they will be fine by staying their course with no plan "B">
Oh-well, I sound like my late father talking now. Cheers
Grt2bOutdoors
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by Grt2bOutdoors »

H-Town wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 6:20 pm
rockstar wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 6:01 pm The system is rigged to keep us working as long as possible.
Realize that, we need to turn earned income into passive income as fast as possible.

The rigged system target people saving 20% or less and plan to work until retirement age. If you want to change that, you gotta save more, starting with at least $1 save for every $1 spent.
If you are saving 20 percent you can likely retire before age 65. If you are saving $1 for $1 spend you will deprive yourself when you can best derive enjoyment from it. No one should aspire to be the richest person in the graveyard.
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steelhorse
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by steelhorse »

I'm knocking on 70s door. Retired at 61, never regretted one minute! Wife and I bought a little motor home, took some great trips traveling the USA, FANTASTIC!
The price you pay working longer is LIFE! Don't let life pass you by, it's too short.
The past few years I've had some friends and past co workers die in their 60s, some in their early 70s, most still working.
What a shame!
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JonnyDVM
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by JonnyDVM »

This thread now has me pondering adjuting my retirement target date up quite a bit.
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tibbitts
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by tibbitts »

JonnyDVM wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 9:58 am This thread now has me pondering adjuting my retirement target date up quite a bit.
"Up" could be interpreted in either direction. Maybe a second career as a politician is in your future.
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by afan »

interestediniras wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 8:11 pm

Suggesting that physical harm is 'legitimate' whereas the continued and unceasing mental and emotional pain inflicted upon me by my job are somehow 'not legitimate' is offensive and rude. You are choosing to apply a narrow and arbitrary definition of what it means for something to negatively affect one's "life" and you are free to apply that to your own perception, but I think that denying others' lived experiences here just because you have some semantic disagreement with the words they used to describe their experiences -- without thinking about the actual substance or meaning of their complaints -- reflects a lack of maturity and empathy on your part.

Could be that such a reference to what may or may not be legitimate is rude. Not the word I would have used- implies that one should not say it, even if it were true. However, I defy you to find where, before the firstly sentence of this paragraph, I used the word "legitimate". The implication that I did is from you, not from me

As I said, several times, if it is true that one's job is shortening their lifespan, then one should get out. Need not retire, but should seek a different job.

However, I did point out and no one has demonstrated that I am wrong, few jobs actually shorten lifespan. Some do. Most are either lifespan neutral or lead to greater longevity.

Stress, in this context, can have negative health implications. However, it is less clear the extent to which *job* stress is responsible. Many of the stresses that have been studied revolve around poverty or the consequences of lifetimes of discrimination experienced by some members of minority groups.

In this article, many aspects of jobs are lumped into "stress". If you read it, you find that many of these stressors would not be solved by retiring. Unemployment is the single most important stressor. You don't fix that by quitting. Low pay is another. Converting your situation from low pay to no pay does not solve the problem.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... OJ_125F4Ro

The jobs that are highly stressful, as the authors are using the word, tend to be low paying, low SES, have little or no security and poor benefits. People in jobs like that need better jobs, not retirement. From the work most bogleheads describe, there are not that many minimum wage fast food fry cooks on this site. Those who are in those jobs should seek better positions.

Problems with the claim "my job stress is shortening my life, therefore I must retire" :
1. The assertion may be simply wrong. One can dislike a job that does not threaten one's survival.
2. Even if true, the negative health effects would be a reason to quit that particular job. Unless one is prepared to declare that ALL jobs are so stressful as to shorten one's life- a difficult proposition to support- this would be a reason to change jobs but not to retire.
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H-Town
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by H-Town »

rockstar wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 9:17 am
H-Town wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 6:20 pm
rockstar wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 6:01 pm The system is rigged to keep us working as long as possible.
Realize that, we need to turn earned income into passive income as fast as possible.

The rigged system target people saving 20% or less and plan to work until retirement age. If you want to change that, you gotta save more, starting with at least $1 save for every $1 spent.
The problem is healthcare costs. They keep going up. And you can't get Medicare early. If your plan is to save more and spend it all on health insurance, then go for it.
Before ACA, private healthcare insurance is fairly cheap.
After ACA, it gets more expensive. But if you retire early and your income is under 400% poverty level, you should qualify for affordable health insurance on the market place.

I keep my foot on the gas. Not letting up.
Time is the ultimate currency.
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by sailaway »

H-Town wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:28 am
Before ACA, private healthcare insurance is fairly cheap.
As long as you were young and healthy. You couldn't turn 50 or have any kind of pre existing condition and get cheap insurance. Sometimes, you just couldn't get any private insurance if you weren't young and healthy.


How would this conversation be different if we talked about a job sucking away your will to live rather than your life?
Last edited by sailaway on Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
H-Town
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by H-Town »

Grt2bOutdoors wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 9:43 am
H-Town wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 6:20 pm
rockstar wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 6:01 pm The system is rigged to keep us working as long as possible.
Realize that, we need to turn earned income into passive income as fast as possible.

The rigged system target people saving 20% or less and plan to work until retirement age. If you want to change that, you gotta save more, starting with at least $1 save for every $1 spent.
If you are saving 20 percent you can likely retire before age 65. If you are saving $1 for $1 spend you will deprive yourself when you can best derive enjoyment from it. No one should aspire to be the richest person in the graveyard.
If you ask 10 people, you will probably have 10 different answers on what enjoyment they get from spending money.

I'm not depriving myself or my family of anything. I'm in high income years and I can afford to save > $2 for every $1 spent, without cutting back expenses. I know high income years won't last, so I best turn them into appreciating assets.
Time is the ultimate currency.
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by afan »

smitcat wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 9:31 am

I do not know how Covid will affect SS - but it does occurr to me that Covid is very much 'tilted' to affecting older folks which may have the opposite affect.
In addition - there are many ways to balance the funds like the USA has done in past history which did not directly affect payments.
COVID is more likely to kill older than younger people and to drive them out of the workforce for health reasons.

The effects on Social Security are broader.

COVID has caused a recession and a rise in the unemployment rate. This reduces SS tax receipts and weakens the program.

At the same time, workers who have lost their jobs and who are eligible for SS may start taking benefits, increasing the demand on the trust fund.

Depending on how long the COVID-induced recession lasts, it could lead to long term decreases in SS revenue.
Last edited by afan on Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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afan
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by afan »

sailaway wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:30 am
H-Town wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:28 am
Before ACA, private healthcare insurance is fairly cheap.
As long as you were young and healthy. You couldn't turn 50 or have any kind of pre existing condition and get cheap insurance. Sometimes, you just couldn't get any private insurance if you weren't young and healthy.


How would this conversation be different if we talked about a job sucking away your will to live rather than your life?
Depression is painfully common. The solutions rarely revolve around quitting one's job. Without straying into forbidden discussions of medical treatment, there are many things that can be done for people who are depressed. Those people often focus on one or more aspects of their lives as the cause of the depression. Often it is the depression itself that makes those things unpleasant, rather than the other way around.

People who are depressed often say that they have lost their will to live and unfortunately, far too often this is true. But that does not mean their jobs are the causes of their depression.

Quitting their jobs may not solve the problem. They could easily end up depressed and unemployed- which often occurs.
Last edited by afan on Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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JonnyDVM
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by JonnyDVM »

tibbitts wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:14 am
JonnyDVM wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 9:58 am This thread now has me pondering adjuting my retirement target date up quite a bit.
"Up" could be interpreted in either direction. Maybe a second career as a politician is in your future.
I mean retire younger. But yes, I’ve considered a second career in politics. There will suddenly be a lot of “deleted” posts in the boglehead archives.
I’d trade it all for a little more | -C Montgomery Burns
WhiteMaxima
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by WhiteMaxima »

I would prefer working longer or maybe semi-retirement. with less resposibility and heath insurance covered.
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by bobcat2 »

From the paper.
The basic result is that delaying retirement by 3-6 months has the same impact on the retirement standard of living as saving an additional one-percentage point of labor earnings for 30 years. The relative power of saving more is even lower if the decision to increase saving is made later in the work life. For instance, increasing retirement saving by one percentage point ten years before retirement has the same impact on the sustainable retirement standard of living as working a single month longer.
Here the authors explain why working longer is so much more powerful than saving more per year.
We show that postponing retirement impacts the sustainable standard of living in retirement for several reasons:(1) commencing Social Security at a later age results in higher monthly benefits, (2) working longer involves additional contributions to retirement accounts, (3) delayed withdrawals from retirement accounts results in additional compounding of previous account balances,and (4) delayed annuity purchase results in lower annuity prices (that is, a given amount of wealth will convert to a larger monthly annuity payment). ... Working longer is a powerful method to increase retirement standard of living and has a substantially larger impact on retirement consumption than other alternatives [such as saving more per year], particularly in mid-and late-career circumstances.
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vitaflo
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by vitaflo »

willthrill81 wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 4:21 pm We already know that's coming. The last time I looked, the SSA was estimating that benefits would be reduced across the board by about 20% by 2034, but that was pre-COVID. So at a minimum, it already seems prudent to plan on getting less than your 'promised' benefit after that time.
Planning for reduced payment is a good thing to do (I plan for a 25% cut to the current value of my benefit when I retire). But I also think it's prudent to plan for benefits in some form. SS may be reduced in the future, but it's not going away. I see too many people planning their savings without considering any SS at all, which just means they're going to be working way longer than they need to be.
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by afan »

I do my planning both assuming a benefits cut and date as projected by the Trustees and assuming no benefits at all. So far, pending a solution from the government, I don't bother to plan on receiving the full benefits currently promised.

Based on no inside information, I suspect I just might get those full benefits. But I am definitely not counting on them.
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afan
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by afan »

JustinR wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 8:47 am
Just curious, how old are you?
No direct answer.

Old enough that I could retire. Young enough that I anticipate a long working career ahead of me.

What does the age of one person on here have to do with changing jobs vs retiring in response to job dissatisfaction? Or what retirement may have meant in years past?
Last edited by afan on Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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interestediniras
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by interestediniras »

afan wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:25 am As I said, several times, if it is true that one's job is shortening their lifespan, then one should get out. Need not retire, but should seek a different job.
You can make this recommendation, but it doesn't make it a legitimate one, because people can have goals beyond minimizing short-term harm to their life (however defined). I'll let you fill in the blanks -- can you really not imagine why people stay in jobs that they feel are harmful to themselves? Really?
afan wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:25 am However, I did point out and no one has demonstrated that I am wrong, few jobs actually shorten lifespan. Some do. Most are either lifespan neutral or lead to greater longevity.
I'm not sure why you think that fundamentally correlative data hinting at a weak association in the general population has any relation to the choices of individual posters on this forum, which are going to be vastly unrepresentative of the population and may or may not have any relation to any causal relationship between work and longevity. Throwing out a single study which tangentially supports your position without critically thinking about how it applies to the discussion at hand is not a good-faith argument, it's just using published research as a bludgeon to force through your point in the hopes that your interlocutor rolls over when they see scientific literature.
afan wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:25 am Stress, in this context, can have negative health implications. However, it is less clear the extent to which *job* stress is responsible. Many of the stresses that have been studied revolve around poverty or the consequences of lifetimes of discrimination experienced by some members of minority groups.

In this article, many aspects of jobs are lumped into "stress". If you read it, you find that many of these stressors would not be solved by retiring. Unemployment is the single most important stressor. You don't fix that by quitting. Low pay is another. Converting your situation from low pay to no pay does not solve the problem.
This is an absurd misrepresentation of the discussion at hand. Are you joking? The median poster here is probably many multiples richer than the average person and "retiring" here often means quitting work with multiple millions in the bank. Comparing that to "unemployment" or "low pay" as generally experienced in the population is just -- what?

afan wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:25 am 1. The assertion may be simply wrong. One can dislike a job that does not threaten one's survival.
You continue to ignore the point I have repeatedly made, which is that involuntary consumption of your time through employment is functionally equal to a reduction of your lifespan. You are ignoring this because it does not fit into your narrow semantic definitions, but that does not mean it is not a real and legitimate harm.
interestediniras
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by interestediniras »

smitcat wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:39 am "I actually legitimately feel that my job saps the life out of me --"
"Suggesting that physical harm is 'legitimate' whereas the continued and unceasing mental and emotional pain inflicted upon me by my job are somehow 'not legitimate' is offensive and rude."

Get another job as soon as possible...
I have a well-paying job and it is rational for me to stay in this position for the time being because I have goals and priorities beyond minimization of my short-term discomfort. Does "family" ring a bell?
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by flyingaway »

This thread just accelerated my retirement by at least 2 years.
sailaway
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by sailaway »

interestediniras wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:18 pm
smitcat wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:39 am "I actually legitimately feel that my job saps the life out of me --"
"Suggesting that physical harm is 'legitimate' whereas the continued and unceasing mental and emotional pain inflicted upon me by my job are somehow 'not legitimate' is offensive and rude."

Get another job as soon as possible...
I have a well-paying job and it is rational for me to stay in this position for the time being because I have goals and priorities beyond minimization of my short-term discomfort. Does "family" ring a bell?
There should be a big difference between "sapping my life away" and "discomfort."
interestediniras
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by interestediniras »

sailaway wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:35 pm
interestediniras wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:18 pm
smitcat wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:39 am "I actually legitimately feel that my job saps the life out of me --"
"Suggesting that physical harm is 'legitimate' whereas the continued and unceasing mental and emotional pain inflicted upon me by my job are somehow 'not legitimate' is offensive and rude."

Get another job as soon as possible...
I have a well-paying job and it is rational for me to stay in this position for the time being because I have goals and priorities beyond minimization of my short-term discomfort. Does "family" ring a bell?
There should be a big difference between "sapping my life away" and "discomfort."
Well, however you slice and dice it, that's how I feel, but there aren't any superior options. Perhaps I'm just less dispositionally inclined to employment compared to the average person.
sailaway
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by sailaway »

interestediniras wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:42 pm
sailaway wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:35 pm
interestediniras wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:18 pm
smitcat wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:39 am "I actually legitimately feel that my job saps the life out of me --"
"Suggesting that physical harm is 'legitimate' whereas the continued and unceasing mental and emotional pain inflicted upon me by my job are somehow 'not legitimate' is offensive and rude."

Get another job as soon as possible...
I have a well-paying job and it is rational for me to stay in this position for the time being because I have goals and priorities beyond minimization of my short-term discomfort. Does "family" ring a bell?
There should be a big difference between "sapping my life away" and "discomfort."
Well, however you slice and dice it, that's how I feel, but there aren't any superior options. Perhaps I'm just less dispositionally inclined to employment compared to the average person.
Or melodrama. If work is sapping your life, it would be better for your family that you try something else.
interestediniras
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by interestediniras »

sailaway wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:45 pm
interestediniras wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:42 pm
sailaway wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:35 pm
interestediniras wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:18 pm
smitcat wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:39 am "I actually legitimately feel that my job saps the life out of me --"
"Suggesting that physical harm is 'legitimate' whereas the continued and unceasing mental and emotional pain inflicted upon me by my job are somehow 'not legitimate' is offensive and rude."

Get another job as soon as possible...
I have a well-paying job and it is rational for me to stay in this position for the time being because I have goals and priorities beyond minimization of my short-term discomfort. Does "family" ring a bell?
There should be a big difference between "sapping my life away" and "discomfort."
Well, however you slice and dice it, that's how I feel, but there aren't any superior options. Perhaps I'm just less dispositionally inclined to employment compared to the average person.
Or melodrama. If work were sapping your life, it would be better for your family that you try something else.
I'm in my mid-20s and based on my income and equity compensation growth at this company, I'm on track to potentially retire within the next 5 years. I'm willing to suffer through several more years of discomfort so that I can enjoy 50+ (hopefully) decades of married life without the specter of a 8am-6pm office grind hanging over my head every weekday.
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by smitcat »

afan wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:49 am
smitcat wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 9:31 am

I do not know how Covid will affect SS - but it does occurr to me that Covid is very much 'tilted' to affecting older folks which may have the opposite affect.
In addition - there are many ways to balance the funds like the USA has done in past history which did not directly affect payments.
COVID is more likely to kill older than younger people and to drive them out of the workforce for health reasons.

The effects on Social Security are broader.

COVID has caused a recession and a rise in the unemployment rate. This reduces SS tax receipts and weakens the program.

At the same time, workers who have lost their jobs and who are eligible for SS may start taking benefits, increasing the demand on the trust fund.

Depending on how long the COVID-induced recession lasts, it could lead to long term decreases in SS revenue.

"Depending on how long the COVID-induced recession lasts, it could lead to long term decreases in SS revenue."
Yes it could , and it could lead to less draw as well.
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by smitcat »

interestediniras wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:18 pm
smitcat wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:39 am "I actually legitimately feel that my job saps the life out of me --"
"Suggesting that physical harm is 'legitimate' whereas the continued and unceasing mental and emotional pain inflicted upon me by my job are somehow 'not legitimate' is offensive and rude."

Get another job as soon as possible...
I have a well-paying job and it is rational for me to stay in this position for the time being because I have goals and priorities beyond minimization of my short-term discomfort. Does "family" ring a bell?
There are always alternatives ...of course if it's just some short term discomfort than I misundertood your posts.
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by afan »

interestediniras wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:14 pm
afan wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:25 am As I said, several times, if it is true that one's job is shortening their lifespan, then one should get out. Need not retire, but should seek a different job.
You can make this recommendation, but it doesn't make it a legitimate one, because people can have goals beyond minimizing short-term harm to their life (however defined).
So we are no longer talking about reducing lifespan? Then we are in agreement that most jobs do not do that?
afan wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:25 am However, I did point out and no one has demonstrated that I am wrong, few jobs actually shorten lifespan. Some do. Most are either lifespan neutral or lead to greater longevity.
interestediniras wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:14 pm I'm not sure why you think that fundamentally correlative data hinting at a weak association in the general population has any relation to the choices of individual posters on this forum, which are going to be vastly unrepresentative of the population and may or may not have any relation to any causal relationship between work and longevity. Throwing out a single study which tangentially supports your position without critically thinking about how it applies to the discussion at hand is not a good-faith argument, it's just using published research as a bludgeon to force through your point in the hopes that your interlocutor rolls over when they see scientific literature.
Or at least reads it and realizes that it has references. How much time do you want to devote to this issue?
Why so hostile and defensive?
afan wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:25 am Stress, in this context, can have negative health implications. However, it is less clear the extent to which *job* stress is responsible. Many of the stresses that have been studied revolve around poverty or the consequences of lifetimes of discrimination experienced by some members of minority groups.

In this article, many aspects of jobs are lumped into "stress". If you read it, you find that many of these stressors would not be solved by retiring. Unemployment is the single most important stressor. You don't fix that by quitting. Low pay is another. Converting your situation from low pay to no pay does not solve the problem.
interestediniras wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:14 pm
This is an absurd misrepresentation of the discussion at hand. Are you joking? The median poster here is probably many multiples richer than the average person and "retiring" here often means quitting work with multiple millions in the bank. Comparing that to "unemployment" or "low pay" as generally experienced in the population is just -- what?

If true, it would imply that the sorts of stress found to be the most significant in the article have little application to people on bogleheads. Thus, the people here would not be extending their lives by escaping stresses to which they are not exposed.
afan wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:25 am 1. The assertion may be simply wrong. One can dislike a job that does not threaten one's survival.
interestediniras wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:14 pm You continue to ignore the point I have repeatedly made, which is that [i]involuntary consumption of your time through employment is functionally equal to a reduction of your lifespan[/i]. You are ignoring this because it does not fit into your narrow semantic definitions, but that does not mean it is not a real and legitimate harm.
I agree that slavery would have many of the stresses included in the article. But we are not talking about about involuntary consumption of time. With the exception of those in the military or incarcerated, the rest of us can quit at any time. Some may have contractual obligations to give notice. if so, those tend to be short term. Certainly not years. People keep their jobs because they conclude they are better off with them than without them.

I do not agree that continuing to work is functionally equivalent to shortening lifespan. Shortening lifespan is functionally equivalent to shortening lifespan. Working at a job you don't like need not, and most of the time does not, reduce your lifespan at all. They are unrelated or perhaps holding the job leads to a longer life.

People should do what they want. But it does not help the analysis to create false narratives about the consequences of a course of action.

It is not just semantics. Taking appropriate action depends on a clear understanding of the situation.

If the building were on fire and the only escape from certain death was to jump out the window, suffering severe injuries in the process, then it would be best to accept the consequences and jump.
If the building is not on fire, then pretending that it is could lead to a terrible decision to jump, when staying put would be safer.

If your job is threatening your life- i.e. it is true that the job is killing you- then by all means get out.
If you don't like your perfectly safe job, then behaving as if it was killing you, when that is not true, will lead to bad decisions.

If you don't like your perfectly safe job, it is hard to argue that the solution is to reject any and all work, rather than to seek another job.
We don't know how to beat the market on a risk-adjusted basis, and we don't know anyone that does know either | --Swedroe | We assume that markets are efficient, that prices are right | --Fama
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by afan »

smitcat wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:48 pm Yes it could , and it could lead to less draw as well.
It might reduce draw as fewer people accumulate enough credits to qualify at all, or those who qualify are entitled to lower benefits due to shorter work lives and lower income. But SS heavily weights the low end of compensation, with higher earnings contributing relatively more to the trust fund but relatively less in the way of benefits for the earners. The trustees generally model recessions as making the system weaker, not stronger.
We don't know how to beat the market on a risk-adjusted basis, and we don't know anyone that does know either | --Swedroe | We assume that markets are efficient, that prices are right | --Fama
SteadyOne
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Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by SteadyOne »

bligh wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 12:09 pm Well Yes! Yes! Working longer means you need to save less.

You should also read this classic paper:

"The Power of never retiring" - Bligh

If you work till your last day on this earth you can do away with saving for retirement altogether, thereby maintaining a much higher standard of living through out your life than if you ever planned on retiring.

If you never take vacation days you save tons more money and in many cases you can cash out those vacation days so you can spend that money to attain an even higher standard of living than you would have on your income alone.

Finally, get a second job on the weekends - that way you can push your standard of living well past what you could have while working a single job.

Our primary conclusion is that people that never retire, take no vacations and hold second jobs live lives with higher standards of living, and without having to worry about saving anything at all for retirement.

Stay tuned for our next paper - The power of never having children and hobbies.
And power of never eating out and living in a shed.
“Every de­duc­tion is al­lowed as a mat­ter of leg­isla­tive grace.” US Federal Court
smitcat
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Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:51 am

Re: The Power of Working Longer

Post by smitcat »

afan wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 1:17 pm
smitcat wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:48 pm Yes it could , and it could lead to less draw as well.
It might reduce draw as fewer people accumulate enough credits to qualify at all, or those who qualify are entitled to lower benefits due to shorter work lives and lower income. But SS heavily weights the low end of compensation, with higher earnings contributing relatively more to the trust fund but relatively less in the way of benefits for the earners. The trustees generally model recessions as making the system weaker, not stronger.
Unfortunately all 6 people we know personally that have died from Covid were collecting SS and/or within 2 years of collecting SS. Where our kids work the relationship between age of collecting SS and the mortality from Covid19 is virtually identical.
I do hope this does not continue for much longer.
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