Dying Broke (On Purpose) Article

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tman9999
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Re: Dying Broke (On Purpose) Article

Post by tman9999 »

I love this idea. Been thinking about it a lot lately - decumulation, and how to make our savings last for 30-40 years in retirement with almost no DB pension income apart from SSA.

I was just reading an article about how many retirees get stuck on a total savings number and do everything they can to preserve it. The article claims that “most” retirees still have 80% of their saved up funds remaining 20 years after they retire! That’s crazy. Why did we work so hard to save up money for retirement, only to then sit there and try not to spend it? It’s fear of running out, and that’s all.

So: bring back the tontine. Figure out a way to drive it with blockchain for security, low cost of operations and anonymity. Solved. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tontine
rgs92
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Re: Dying Broke (On Purpose) Article

Post by rgs92 »

I'm starting to think the best approach is to be in your 80s or 90s with a big mortgage and as little equity in your house as possible (as long as you have ample income to support it, ideally from single- or joint-life annuities and social security).
MathIsMyWayr
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Re: Dying Broke (On Purpose) Article

Post by MathIsMyWayr »

rgs92 wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 12:18 am I'm starting to think the best approach is to be in your 80s or 90s with a big mortgage and as little equity in your house as possible (as long as you have ample income to support it, ideally from single- or joint-life annuities and social security).
Depending on whether you can find dumb bankers.
Kaktus
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Re: Dying Broke (On Purpose) Article

Post by Kaktus »

Normchad wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 10:49 pm
WildBill wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 10:30 pm
Normchad wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 10:15 pm
student wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 10:03 pm You may find this article about Chuck Feeney interesting. https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevenbert ... efff693a2a
Thanks for the link. I found it interesting. What a generous man.....
Chuck Feeney is a mensch
I figured it was a compliment, but looked it up to be certain.
The key to being 'a real mensch' is nothing less than character, rectitude, dignity, a sense of what is right, responsible, decorous." The term is used as a high compliment, implying the rarity and value of that individual's qualities. ...
Well said. I agree
Indeed, what a man. And it's not only that Feeney and his wife gave it all away, they did it incognito as much as possible. He did not want his name put on buildings or any gloryfying foundation after he is gone. The billions are now simply dispersed.
deserat
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Re: Dying Broke (On Purpose) Article

Post by deserat »

flaccidsteele wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 9:52 am
unclescrooge wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 9:16 am
HueyLD wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 9:07 am My goal is to die with my last check of $10M bounced.
I'm not sure you have to wait until your deathbed. You could probably bounce a$10 million check today. Might as well get that off your bucket list. :mrgreen:
🤣
Wish there was an upvote on this forum - I laughed out loud at this as well... :happy :-) :D
stoptothink
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Re: Dying Broke (On Purpose) Article

Post by stoptothink »

MathIsMyWayr wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:47 pm
Normchad wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 4:22 pm Would anybody consider just ending their own life when the money ran out?

I don’t personally have a burning desire to live an extremely long life. I wouldn’t want to be 90 or more.....
When I was a college freshman or a sophomore, I thought that there's no point living beyond age 40. When I was young and ..., I was young and ...
Ha, I told my wife when we were getting married that she'll get the 8 best years of my life...she has 5.5 more months.
DesertDiva
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Re: Dying Broke (On Purpose) Article

Post by DesertDiva »

manatee2005 wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 9:11 pm If you knew the exact day you would die, then you could plan it like that.

However since we don't know that day, we don't want to be eating dog food in our twilight years. It's better to be over prepared than under prepared.
+1 Precisely! People often ignore the spouse that gets left behind or the fact that they may live a whole lot longer than they anticipated. Failure to plan for your own older years is simply foolish.
tman9999
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Re: Dying Broke (On Purpose) Article

Post by tman9999 »

DesertDiva wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 9:38 am
manatee2005 wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 9:11 pm If you knew the exact day you would die, then you could plan it like that.

However since we don't know that day, we don't want to be eating dog food in our twilight years. It's better to be over prepared than under prepared.
+1 Precisely! People often ignore the spouse that gets left behind or the fact that they may live a whole lot longer than they anticipated. Failure to plan for your own older years is simply foolish.
Tontines for both. Bring back the tontine!
iamblessed
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Re: Dying Broke (On Purpose) Article

Post by iamblessed »

MathIsMyWayr wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:23 pm
iamblessed wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:42 pm
JoeRetire wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:53 am
MortgageOnBlack wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:01 am My ultimate goal in life is to have my last check bounce. I have seen it with my own eyes the way some children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, etc... treat their elders as a ticking payout ready to happen - it's sickening.
I feel sorry for you. That must feel very disheartening.

But everyone's family is different. That hasn't happened (and won't happen) in my family, or in any family I personally know.
Be careful what you say. I had a relative think everything was ok in the family for many years (decades). Then a they found out a niece stole their inheritance. The niece stepped in the last couple of years of the person's life. The person I know was told for 40 years they would be in the will by the person that passed away.
Everything was not ok with the family not because of the niece but because of the expecting person you know.
True but what would you think if someone told you for 40 years you are in their will? I would think 95% of people would be expecting at that point.
Robot Monster
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Re: Dying Broke (On Purpose) Article

Post by Robot Monster »

iamblessed wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:10 am
MathIsMyWayr wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:23 pm
iamblessed wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:42 pm
JoeRetire wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:53 am
MortgageOnBlack wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:01 am My ultimate goal in life is to have my last check bounce. I have seen it with my own eyes the way some children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, etc... treat their elders as a ticking payout ready to happen - it's sickening.
I feel sorry for you. That must feel very disheartening.

But everyone's family is different. That hasn't happened (and won't happen) in my family, or in any family I personally know.
Be careful what you say. I had a relative think everything was ok in the family for many years (decades). Then a they found out a niece stole their inheritance. The niece stepped in the last couple of years of the person's life. The person I know was told for 40 years they would be in the will by the person that passed away.
Everything was not ok with the family not because of the niece but because of the expecting person you know.
True but what would you think if someone told you for 40 years you are in their will? I would think 95% of people would be expecting at that point.
You're in my will, iamblessed. Okay, I'm just gonna say that that for the next 40 years. Just as an experiment. :wink:
DesertDiva
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Re: Dying Broke (On Purpose) Article

Post by DesertDiva »

iamblessed wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:10 am
MathIsMyWayr wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:23 pm
iamblessed wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:42 pm
JoeRetire wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:53 am
MortgageOnBlack wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:01 am My ultimate goal in life is to have my last check bounce. I have seen it with my own eyes the way some children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, etc... treat their elders as a ticking payout ready to happen - it's sickening.
I feel sorry for you. That must feel very disheartening.

But everyone's family is different. That hasn't happened (and won't happen) in my family, or in any family I personally know.
Be careful what you say. I had a relative think everything was ok in the family for many years (decades). Then a they found out a niece stole their inheritance. The niece stepped in the last couple of years of the person's life. The person I know was told for 40 years they would be in the will by the person that passed away.
Everything was not ok with the family not because of the niece but because of the expecting person you know.
True but what would you think if someone told you for 40 years you are in their will? I would think 95% of people would be expecting at that point.
Planning on receiving a inheritance is no different than expecting to win the lottery. If someone receives an inheritance, thats a bonus. But any financial plan based on promises of a future inheritance is foolish.

Failure to plan is planning to fail.
Last edited by DesertDiva on Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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willthrill81
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Re: Dying Broke (On Purpose) Article

Post by willthrill81 »

iamblessed wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:10 am
MathIsMyWayr wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:23 pm
iamblessed wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:42 pm
JoeRetire wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:53 am
MortgageOnBlack wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:01 am My ultimate goal in life is to have my last check bounce. I have seen it with my own eyes the way some children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, etc... treat their elders as a ticking payout ready to happen - it's sickening.
I feel sorry for you. That must feel very disheartening.

But everyone's family is different. That hasn't happened (and won't happen) in my family, or in any family I personally know.
Be careful what you say. I had a relative think everything was ok in the family for many years (decades). Then a they found out a niece stole their inheritance. The niece stepped in the last couple of years of the person's life. The person I know was told for 40 years they would be in the will by the person that passed away.
Everything was not ok with the family not because of the niece but because of the expecting person you know.
True but what would you think if someone told you for 40 years you are in their will? I would think 95% of people would be expecting at that point.
People shouldn't count an receiving an inheritance, regardless of what their parents (or someone else) says or for how long. But it's undeniable that most do just that.

Expectancy theory states that satisfaction is determined by comparing expectations to performance perceptions. If the performance perceptions are poorer than expectations, the result is dissatisfaction. That's clearly what happened in the instance you refer to.
Last edited by willthrill81 on Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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iamblessed
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Re: Dying Broke (On Purpose) Article

Post by iamblessed »

DesertDiva wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:15 am
iamblessed wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:10 am
MathIsMyWayr wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:23 pm
iamblessed wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:42 pm
JoeRetire wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:53 am

I feel sorry for you. That must feel very disheartening.

But everyone's family is different. That hasn't happened (and won't happen) in my family, or in any family I personally know.
Be careful what you say. I had a relative think everything was ok in the family for many years (decades). Then a they found out a niece stole their inheritance. The niece stepped in the last couple of years of the person's life. The person I know was told for 40 years they would be in the will by the person that passed away.
Everything was not ok with the family not because of the niece but because of the expecting person you know.
True but what would you think if someone told you for 40 years you are in their will? I would think 95% of people would be expecting at that point.
Planning on a inheritance is no better than expecting to win the lottery. If someone receives an inheritance, thats a bonus. But the promise of a future inheritance is not a wise retirement strategy.

Failure to plan is planning to fail.
True but if it were my will. I would say you are in it or it is going to the church. I think it is cruel to lead someone on for many years. I have seen that happen several times.
stoptothink
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Re: Dying Broke (On Purpose) Article

Post by stoptothink »

iamblessed wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:10 am
MathIsMyWayr wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:23 pm
iamblessed wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:42 pm
JoeRetire wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:53 am
MortgageOnBlack wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:01 am My ultimate goal in life is to have my last check bounce. I have seen it with my own eyes the way some children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, etc... treat their elders as a ticking payout ready to happen - it's sickening.
I feel sorry for you. That must feel very disheartening.

But everyone's family is different. That hasn't happened (and won't happen) in my family, or in any family I personally know.
Be careful what you say. I had a relative think everything was ok in the family for many years (decades). Then a they found out a niece stole their inheritance. The niece stepped in the last couple of years of the person's life. The person I know was told for 40 years they would be in the will by the person that passed away.
Everything was not ok with the family not because of the niece but because of the expecting person you know.
True but what would you think if someone told you for 40 years you are in their will? I would think 95% of people would be expecting at that point.
Happened to my mom and 5 of her siblings; her youngest sister took advantage of my step-grandmother's dementia and became executor in her last year of life. Miraculously everything (we believe mid 7-figures in real estate and investments) was left to the one sister and her kids 3 (individually). Absolutely destroyed a once very close family. It's on my mom for not getting herself in a better financial position, but it was hard seeing her go through that. FWIW, she had also told us (her 5 blood children) that we would be included in the will (I assume similarly to my 3 cousins). I don't think any of us ever really thought about it, so it wasn't a big deal to us.
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Re: Dying Broke (On Purpose) Article

Post by DesertDiva »

iamblessed wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:19 am
DesertDiva wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:15 am
iamblessed wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:10 am
MathIsMyWayr wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:23 pm
iamblessed wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:42 pm

Be careful what you say. I had a relative think everything was ok in the family for many years (decades). Then a they found out a niece stole their inheritance. The niece stepped in the last couple of years of the person's life. The person I know was told for 40 years they would be in the will by the person that passed away.
Everything was not ok with the family not because of the niece but because of the expecting person you know.
True but what would you think if someone told you for 40 years you are in their will? I would think 95% of people would be expecting at that point.
Planning on a inheritance is no better than expecting to win the lottery. If someone receives an inheritance, thats a bonus. But the promise of a future inheritance is not a wise retirement strategy.

Failure to plan is planning to fail.
True but if it were my will. I would say you are in it or it is going to the church. I think it is cruel to lead someone on for many years. I have seen that happen several times.
So you unexpectedly go into a nursing home and burn through your assets. Despite your best intentions, you leave behind far less than expected... or you live to 105... in my own family, I’ve seen people not plan for their own future based on promises, and the aforementioned events occurred.
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Re: Dying Broke (On Purpose) Article

Post by iamblessed »

DesertDiva wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:25 am
iamblessed wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:19 am
DesertDiva wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:15 am
iamblessed wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:10 am
MathIsMyWayr wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:23 pm
Everything was not ok with the family not because of the niece but because of the expecting person you know.
True but what would you think if someone told you for 40 years you are in their will? I would think 95% of people would be expecting at that point.
Planning on a inheritance is no better than expecting to win the lottery. If someone receives an inheritance, thats a bonus. But the promise of a future inheritance is not a wise retirement strategy.

Failure to plan is planning to fail.
True but if it were my will. I would say you are in it or it is going to the church. I think it is cruel to lead someone on for many years. I have seen that happen several times.
So you unexpectedly go into a nursing home and burn through your assets. Despite your best intentions, you leave behind far less than expected... or you live to 105... in my own family, I’ve seen people not plan for their own future based on promises, and the aforementioned events occurred.
I understand that more. With my relatives it was just a flat out 40 year lie or the niece changed the mind of the person passing away. I don't know which but one is a lie and the other is stealing in my mind.
michaeljc70
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Re: Dying Broke (On Purpose) Article

Post by michaeljc70 »

DesertDiva wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:25 am
iamblessed wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:19 am
DesertDiva wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:15 am
iamblessed wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:10 am
MathIsMyWayr wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:23 pm
Everything was not ok with the family not because of the niece but because of the expecting person you know.
True but what would you think if someone told you for 40 years you are in their will? I would think 95% of people would be expecting at that point.
Planning on a inheritance is no better than expecting to win the lottery. If someone receives an inheritance, thats a bonus. But the promise of a future inheritance is not a wise retirement strategy.

Failure to plan is planning to fail.
True but if it were my will. I would say you are in it or it is going to the church. I think it is cruel to lead someone on for many years. I have seen that happen several times.
So you unexpectedly go into a nursing home and burn through your assets. Despite your best intentions, you leave behind far less than expected... or you live to 105... in my own family, I’ve seen people not plan for their own future based on promises, and the aforementioned events occurred.
I wouldn't be telling anyone how much they should expect to inherit from me. There was a thread related to this recently. Of course, a lot of things can happen in your last years. However, the average nursing home stay before death is 14 months and the median is 5 months. Though you shouldn't count on an inheritance, not considering it can be poor planning. One reason is it could put you in a much higher tax bracket if you inherit tIRAs with RMDs. I take into mind a potential inheritance when considering doing Roth conversions as an example. Obviously I am not running around spending money I may never get or not saving because of an inheritance that may never come.
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changingtimes
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Re: Dying Broke (On Purpose) Article

Post by changingtimes »

To kind of go back to the original topic.... :)

As a widow with no direct heirs, I have certainly joked a number of times about wanting to bounce the check to the cemetery on my way off the earth. I have no problem with leaving some money to nieces, nephews, siblings/in-law/charity, but if I just spend my next x number of years sitting on my pile of dough worried about not having enough, I'm going to give THEM more money to spend than I spent myself. I also got to see DH not live to spend the money he accumulated and most definitely wanted to enjoy.

I've started thinking about buying a second home--in talking with my 87(!)-year-old father about it, I told him that of course it's not necessarily the optimal financial move--but that I also don't want to die with $5 million in the bank, which could happen if I don't start spending on what might give me enjoyment. Not that I'm going to buy a palace or go crazy--but if I don't spend at least a little above what I'm taking in, that's going to happen.

Like most people here, I'm pretty prudent about finances--given that I don't have children I am expecting to have to spend a lot more to keep myself comfortable as I get older. But I also want to find the ground between spending like a drunken sailor vs terror that if I spend $1,000 on something nonessential that that means I'll be eating cat food when I'm 80.
dknightd
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Re: Dying Broke (On Purpose) Article

Post by dknightd »

I want to die happy. If being broke makes you happy, then go for it! I think I'd rather die with a few bucks left in the bank. I really do not care what happens to them after I'm dead. I don't want to die broke. At least that is my current thinking.
Retired 2019. So far, so good. I want to wake up every morning. But I want to die in my sleep. Just another conundrum. I think the solution might be afternoon naps ;)
JackoC
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Re: Dying Broke (On Purpose) Article

Post by JackoC »

iamblessed wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:31 am
DesertDiva wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:25 am
iamblessed wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:19 am
DesertDiva wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:15 am
iamblessed wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:10 am True but what would you think if someone told you for 40 years you are in their will? I would think 95% of people would be expecting at that point.
Planning on a inheritance is no better than expecting to win the lottery. If someone receives an inheritance, thats a bonus. But the promise of a future inheritance is not a wise retirement strategy.
Failure to plan is planning to fail.
True but if it were my will. I would say you are in it or it is going to the church. I think it is cruel to lead someone on for many years. I have seen that happen several times.
So you unexpectedly go into a nursing home and burn through your assets. Despite your best intentions, you leave behind far less than expected... or you live to 105... in my own family, I’ve seen people not plan for their own future based on promises, and the aforementioned events occurred.
I understand that more. With my relatives it was just a flat out 40 year lie or the niece changed the mind of the person passing away. I don't know which but one is a lie and the other is stealing in my mind.
Yeah I get that difference, emotional impact of somebody telling you you're going to get the inheritance, the inheritance pans out, but guess what? it goes to someone else, as opposed to they just don't have much money left when they die because of their own expenses and investments. Talking about family relationships ruined by inheritance stuff, the reason is generally perceived favoritism that's perceived betrayal, not bitterness toward the older generation person for incurring high nursing home costs. The heir has to be a real jerk to feel bitter about the latter, though it takes all kinds.

In general have to say, whenever this comes up ('don't be so sure your kids/parents wouldn't cut your legs out from under you') goes in one ear and out the other. There are just different kinds of people and families in the world IME; this kind of stuff doesn't happen randomly. It's a non factor in my outlook and can safely be in our kids' outlook.

But again, if a very conservative approach is being taken because you might live a very long time or rack up high last stage costs, SPIA's and long term care insurance are products to look at. Neither are complete solutions: you cannot get rid of *all* the uncertainties of later life. But nobody should be scrimping out of fear they'll live to 100 or even near it. The 'good' news is that annuities are priced for that as an unlikely outcome, even if you're convinced for some reason it isn't for you. Back to heirs, I don't think anybody should be ashamed to annuitize, thus in simple case that money will go away from heirs' POV, if it avoids excessive worry. Again heirs have to be of low character IMO to have a problem with the older person taking care of their own needs first with their own money.
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kramer
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Re: Dying Broke (On Purpose) Article

Post by kramer »

I am hoping Deferred Annuities become better value over time as they (hopefully) become more popular. They allow a bigger capture of mortality credits than an SPIA and make more sense in the "spend it down" scenario.
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JoeRetire
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Re: Dying Broke (On Purpose) Article

Post by JoeRetire »

iamblessed wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:42 pm
JoeRetire wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:53 am
MortgageOnBlack wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:01 am My ultimate goal in life is to have my last check bounce. I have seen it with my own eyes the way some children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, etc... treat their elders as a ticking payout ready to happen - it's sickening.
I feel sorry for you. That must feel very disheartening.

But everyone's family is different. That hasn't happened (and won't happen) in my family, or in any family I personally know.
Be careful what you say. I had a relative think everything was ok in the family for many years (decades). Then a they found out a niece stole their inheritance. The niece stepped in the last couple of years of the person's life. The person I know was told for 40 years they would be in the will by the person that passed away.
Let's just say I'm not worried about that in my family.
This isn't just my wallet. It's an organizer, a memory and an old friend.
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JoeRetire
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Re: Dying Broke (On Purpose) Article

Post by JoeRetire »

iamblessed wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:19 am
DesertDiva wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:15 am
iamblessed wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:10 am
MathIsMyWayr wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:23 pm
iamblessed wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:42 pm

Be careful what you say. I had a relative think everything was ok in the family for many years (decades). Then a they found out a niece stole their inheritance. The niece stepped in the last couple of years of the person's life. The person I know was told for 40 years they would be in the will by the person that passed away.
Everything was not ok with the family not because of the niece but because of the expecting person you know.
True but what would you think if someone told you for 40 years you are in their will? I would think 95% of people would be expecting at that point.
Planning on a inheritance is no better than expecting to win the lottery. If someone receives an inheritance, thats a bonus. But the promise of a future inheritance is not a wise retirement strategy.

Failure to plan is planning to fail.
True but if it were my will. I would say you are in it or it is going to the church. I think it is cruel to lead someone on for many years. I have seen that happen several times.
Everything my wife and I leave goes to our two sons, divided evenly.

We have told them that. We have never told them how much that will be.
This isn't just my wallet. It's an organizer, a memory and an old friend.
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JoeRetire
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Re: Dying Broke (On Purpose) Article

Post by JoeRetire »

iamblessed wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:31 amI understand that more. With my relatives it was just a flat out 40 year lie or the niece changed the mind of the person passing away. I don't know which but one is a lie and the other is stealing in my mind.
Or, your relative just changed their mind after 40 years. You don't know.
This isn't just my wallet. It's an organizer, a memory and an old friend.
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Re: Dying Broke (On Purpose) Article

Post by MathIsMyWayr »

iamblessed wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:10 am
MathIsMyWayr wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:23 pm
iamblessed wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:42 pm
JoeRetire wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:53 am
MortgageOnBlack wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:01 am My ultimate goal in life is to have my last check bounce. I have seen it with my own eyes the way some children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, etc... treat their elders as a ticking payout ready to happen - it's sickening.
I feel sorry for you. That must feel very disheartening.

But everyone's family is different. That hasn't happened (and won't happen) in my family, or in any family I personally know.
Be careful what you say. I had a relative think everything was ok in the family for many years (decades). Then a they found out a niece stole their inheritance. The niece stepped in the last couple of years of the person's life. The person I know was told for 40 years they would be in the will by the person that passed away.
Everything was not ok with the family not because of the niece but because of the expecting person you know.
True but what would you think if someone told you for 40 years you are in their will? I would think 95% of people would be expecting at that point.
If you want to be nice to or help someone, do it not as a person of a good business sense but as a person of a good character.
Duckinator
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Re: Dying Broke (On Purpose) Article

Post by Duckinator »

Dad passed away in his 90's and flat out never enjoyed his money - and he had plenty of it. Too cheap to live in a decent apt, buy eyeglasses, false teeth, take that "expensive prescription" every day, etc. Mom (86) is close to the same - I have been pushing her to buy herself some nice things. I've heard others talk of saving money for all their life has made it difficult to spent it in their twilight years.
Broken Man 1999
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Re: Dying Broke (On Purpose) Article

Post by Broken Man 1999 »

Duckinator wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 5:39 pm Dad passed away in his 90's and flat out never enjoyed his money - and he had plenty of it. Too cheap to live in a decent apt, buy eyeglasses, false teeth, take that "expensive prescription" every day, etc. Mom (86) is close to the same - I have been pushing her to buy herself some nice things. I've heard others talk of saving money for all their life has made it difficult to spent it in their twilight years.
Stick around and you will see the occasional discussion here started by someone who just can't give up saving and move to the spending of their retirement portfolio.

It always strikes me as a very sad lifestyle.

Broken Man 1999
“If I cannot drink Bourbon and smoke cigars in Heaven then I shall not go." - Mark Twain
tesuzuki2002
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Re: Dying Broke (On Purpose) Article

Post by tesuzuki2002 »

manatee2005 wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 9:11 pm
we don't want to be eating dog food in our twilight years.
Why is it always dog food? Plenty of alternatives that provide a better value.
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FIREchief
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Re: Dying Broke (On Purpose) Article

Post by FIREchief »

tesuzuki2002 wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 6:11 pm
manatee2005 wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 9:11 pm
we don't want to be eating dog food in our twilight years.
Why is it always dog food? Plenty of alternatives that provide a better value.
My cat's fancy feast is 50 cents a can. Ramen is 27 cents a package. Some days, my cat's lunch costs about twice what mine costs. :P

(he's a good cat 8-) )
I am not a lawyer, accountant or financial advisor. Any advice or suggestions that I may provide shall be considered for entertainment purposes only.
manuvns
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Re: Dying Broke (On Purpose) Article

Post by manuvns »

a whole lot of people die broke because they never save , some even ask money from kids . heck look at the US deficits .
Thanks!
AngelFIRE
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Re: Dying Broke (On Purpose) Article

Post by AngelFIRE »

Interesting thread. My father loves the book and even now will joke about dying broke- he is 85 and my mom is 82. I have had many arguments with him over the years. I have no objection to enjoying life and experiences but the « die broke » mantra seems to me to be an excuse to be irresponsible or to take unnecessary risks. That was my experience at living with this. No thanks!
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Re: Dying Broke (On Purpose) Article

Post by JPM »

I knew a lady who used to say, and say for many years, that her ambition was to die on public aid in a nursing home and to enjoy spending every nickel she and her prosperous husband had saved. She got her wish, though she probably ended up spending more on medical and less on fun than she would have preferred..
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Re: Dying Broke (On Purpose) Article

Post by camper1 »

Just found this thread from last year by doing a search for threads on the book Die With Zero. by Bill Perkins. I am currently reading the book and find it pretty interesting. It has changed some of my perspectives concerning spending my time and money now while I am still healthy and we have plenty saved for retirement. He seems to have a pretty balance view of saving for retirement and not being irresponsible with your money, but rather planning ahead so that you can get the most value from your money based on your stage in life. (ie. Take that backpacking trip to Europe now while you still have the health and desire rather than waiting till its too late).

It is definitely aimed for the fortunate crowd who actually has the option to perhaps retire early and still be financially independent and not have to worry about money. It has made me think about how we can use our money and time now to have experiences and provide experiences for our grown children and community that will pay off in great memories as we get older and less able to do such things.

I think actually reading the book may change some of the negative comments from earlier in this thread. I would be interested in hearing comments from others who have actually read the book!
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JAZZISCOOL
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Re: Dying Broke (On Purpose) Article

Post by JAZZISCOOL »

camper1 wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:13 am Just found this thread from last year by doing a search for threads on the book Die With Zero. by Bill Perkins. I am currently reading the book and find it pretty interesting. It has changed some of my perspectives concerning spending my time and money now while I am still healthy and we have plenty saved for retirement. He seems to have a pretty balance view of saving for retirement and not being irresponsible with your money, but rather planning ahead so that you can get the most value from your money based on your stage in life. (ie. Take that backpacking trip to Europe now while you still have the health and desire rather than waiting till its too late).

It is definitely aimed for the fortunate crowd who actually has the option to perhaps retire early and still be financially independent and not have to worry about money. It has made me think about how we can use our money and time now to have experiences and provide experiences for our grown children and community that will pay off in great memories as we get older and less able to do such things.

I think actually reading the book may change some of the negative comments from earlier in this thread. I would be interested in hearing comments from others who have actually read the book!
I added to my Amazon cart. There are some really positive reviews there as well. :beer
makingmistakes
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Re: Dying Broke (On Purpose) Article

Post by makingmistakes »

Broken Man 1999 wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 6:02 pm
Duckinator wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 5:39 pm Dad passed away in his 90's and flat out never enjoyed his money - and he had plenty of it. Too cheap to live in a decent apt, buy eyeglasses, false teeth, take that "expensive prescription" every day, etc. Mom (86) is close to the same - I have been pushing her to buy herself some nice things. I've heard others talk of saving money for all their life has made it difficult to spent it in their twilight years.
Stick around and you will see the occasional discussion here started by someone who just can't give up saving and move to the spending of their retirement portfolio.

It always strikes me as a very sad lifestyle.

Broken Man 1999
Life experiences can have a big impact on people’s psyche, so I would encourage some understanding. To this day, I get little enjoyment from spending money after growing up with a constant fear of poverty.

Spending money causes me stress when logically it shouldn’t after 30 years of a steady job and miserly tendencies. Others had it much rougher than I did (by a long shot), so I can understand the battle they have.
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Re: Dying Broke (On Purpose) Article

Post by mbasherp »

I haven’t read the whole book yet, but I have explored the ideas and played around with the calculators on the author’s website.

I really like the concept; it encapsulates a lot of the regrets we hear from the bedside at the end of life. This forum is one that leads to a high possibility of dying with large amounts of money - I agree with the book’s premise that that is a suboptimal outcome.

Inheritance is definitely more useful in one’s 30s or 40s than after retiring. Activities should peak while we have the physical ability to enjoy them. And charity is even better when you can see it put to work.

I think that the common Boglehead fear of dying without resources is overblown. You’re more likely to die with $5 million after being a miser all your life. Zero doesn’t need to be literal - a terminal account value of a few hundred thousand at the end of the line is a better use of resources than $5 million left to heirs that already sorted out their own situation and charities which can’t show you the good work they’re doing with it.

After playing with his calculators, I doubled our vacation budget. We’re still saving plenty!
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Re: Dying Broke (On Purpose) Article

Post by mbasherp »

makingmistakes wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:32 am
Broken Man 1999 wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 6:02 pm
Duckinator wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 5:39 pm Dad passed away in his 90's and flat out never enjoyed his money - and he had plenty of it. Too cheap to live in a decent apt, buy eyeglasses, false teeth, take that "expensive prescription" every day, etc. Mom (86) is close to the same - I have been pushing her to buy herself some nice things. I've heard others talk of saving money for all their life has made it difficult to spent it in their twilight years.
Stick around and you will see the occasional discussion here started by someone who just can't give up saving and move to the spending of their retirement portfolio.

It always strikes me as a very sad lifestyle.

Broken Man 1999
Life experiences can have a big impact on people’s psyche, so I would encourage some understanding. To this day, I get little enjoyment from spending money after growing up with a constant fear of poverty.

Spending money causes me stress when logically it shouldn’t after 30 years of a steady job and miserly tendencies. Others had it much rougher than I did (by a long shot), so I can understand the battle they have.
Treading lightly here:

Have you thought about working through this with a counselor or therapist? As you said, it causes you stress when it shouldn’t. You don’t need to live that way. You’ll never get back the time/energy you spend stressing about things that aren’t real.
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Re: Dying Broke (On Purpose) Article

Post by Broken Man 1999 »

makingmistakes wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:32 am
Broken Man 1999 wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 6:02 pm
Duckinator wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 5:39 pm Dad passed away in his 90's and flat out never enjoyed his money - and he had plenty of it. Too cheap to live in a decent apt, buy eyeglasses, false teeth, take that "expensive prescription" every day, etc. Mom (86) is close to the same - I have been pushing her to buy herself some nice things. I've heard others talk of saving money for all their life has made it difficult to spent it in their twilight years.
Stick around and you will see the occasional discussion here started by someone who just can't give up saving and move to the spending of their retirement portfolio.

It always strikes me as a very sad lifestyle.

Broken Man 1999
Life experiences can have a big impact on people’s psyche, so I would encourage some understanding. To this day, I get little enjoyment from spending money after growing up with a constant fear of poverty.

Spending money causes me stress when logically it shouldn’t after 30 years of a steady job and miserly tendencies. Others had it much rougher than I did (by a long shot), so I can understand the battle they have.
Oh, I understand, as my father was a product of the depression. He was very generous to others, not to himself.

But I still find it a sad lifestyle, perhaps changeable if desired.

Broken Man 1999
“If I cannot drink Bourbon and smoke cigars in Heaven then I shall not go." - Mark Twain
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Re: Dying Broke (On Purpose) Article

Post by SteadyOne »

What about putting all your money into an income annuity (or few to diversify risk) and live on that. Then you will die broke while having nice monthly check to live on.
“Every de­duc­tion is al­lowed as a mat­ter of leg­isla­tive grace.” US Federal Court
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Re: Dying Broke (On Purpose) Article

Post by ncbill »

mbasherp wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:32 am I haven’t read the whole book yet, but I have explored the ideas and played around with the calculators on the author’s website.

I really like the concept; it encapsulates a lot of the regrets we hear from the bedside at the end of life. This forum is one that leads to a high possibility of dying with large amounts of money - I agree with the book’s premise that that is a suboptimal outcome.

Inheritance is definitely more useful in one’s 30s or 40s than after retiring. Activities should peak while we have the physical ability to enjoy them. And charity is even better when you can see it put to work.

I think that the common Boglehead fear of dying without resources is overblown. You’re more likely to die with $5 million after being a miser all your life. Zero doesn’t need to be literal - a terminal account value of a few hundred thousand at the end of the line is a better use of resources than $5 million left to heirs that already sorted out their own situation and charities which can’t show you the good work they’re doing with it.

After playing with his calculators, I doubled our vacation budget. We’re still saving plenty!
Yep, I buried a close relative just a couple of years ago who died with "nothing."

After being laid off in their late 50s they had to cash in their pension to make it to age 62 for only SS as income plus some equity in their home.

Despite refinancing & later adding a HELOC to meet living expenses not covered by SS, after they died I still managed to distribute roughly half of the home's sales price to their beneficiaries.
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Re: Dying Broke (On Purpose) Article

Post by Tib »

Normchad wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 9:19 pm
Personally, I’m not concerned with running out of money, nor of catastrophic expenses at the end. I’m in a very small minority I’m sure, but if I pass away a little bit earlier than absolutely necessary, I’m okay with that. I’m not going to save up an extra million, just so I can live on life support for an extra six months at the end......
+1 I'd not want the 6 months of life support even with the extra million.
rich126
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Re: Dying Broke (On Purpose) Article

Post by rich126 »

MortgageOnBlack wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:01 am My ultimate goal in life is to have my last check bounce. I have seen it with my own eyes the way some children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, etc... treat their elders as a ticking payout ready to happen - it's sickening.
I don't have any kids so that isn't a concern but I understand what you are saying. It isn't always true but I've seen it. Right now the person next to me at work mentioned once her father passes away she will be getting a sizable amount of money and wants to retire (in her 40s). I don't think I would have said the same thing if I was in a similar situation.

I do know others w/o kids whose goal is to die with as large mortgage as possible.

I have a relative who basically gives away about 50% of his income now to charities (not me!).

Most parents/relatives always want to believe the best in their kids/family and often that is true but far from 100%. Alcohol, drugs, exotic cars, etc. are often funded by trust funds and/or large inheritances. Usually not true but sometimes it is. I recall growing up as one of the "good" kids and never really got into trouble but another one of the "good" kids from a good family was anything but that. He was involved in all kinds of hidden activities. Of course that might be a sign the family wasn't so good after all! But as least the parent as a final gesture tried to do their best, if kid(s) abuse it, well at least they were given a chance.
----------------------------- | If you think something is important and it doesn't involve the health of someone, think again. Life goes too fast, enjoy it and be nice.
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Re: Dying Broke (On Purpose) Article

Post by Wannaretireearly »

camper1 wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:13 am Just found this thread from last year by doing a search for threads on the book Die With Zero. by Bill Perkins. I am currently reading the book and find it pretty interesting. It has changed some of my perspectives concerning spending my time and money now while I am still healthy and we have plenty saved for retirement. He seems to have a pretty balance view of saving for retirement and not being irresponsible with your money, but rather planning ahead so that you can get the most value from your money based on your stage in life. (ie. Take that backpacking trip to Europe now while you still have the health and desire rather than waiting till its too late).

It is definitely aimed for the fortunate crowd who actually has the option to perhaps retire early and still be financially independent and not have to worry about money. It has made me think about how we can use our money and time now to have experiences and provide experiences for our grown children and community that will pay off in great memories as we get older and less able to do such things.

I think actually reading the book may change some of the negative comments from earlier in this thread. I would be interested in hearing comments from others who have actually read the book!
Thanks camper. I just finished the book yesterday.
I like it overall, although quite repetitive in a few places.

My main takeaway, retirement golden years (healthy) are usually 10 to 15 years younger than traditional retirement between roughly 62 and 70. Don't be afraid to spend your nest egg in those years between 45 and 60. Chances are you may not get those healthy years back.
The book is definitely aimed at the crowd who has saved diligently and needs help moving from saving to spending.

I liked one or two of the charts that I could show my wife. Optimal spending over lifetime, with a bump in the middle age years etc.

One thing that seems indisputable, spending does go down in the slow go and no go years of retirement. I'd imagine a lot of us with dual incomes/ss will be able to get by on social security as the main source of income in our 80s and perhaps 90s? Who knows.
“At some point you are trading time you will never get back for money you will never spend.“ | “How do you want to spend the best remaining year of your life?“
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Re: Dying Broke (On Purpose) Article

Post by michaeljc70 »

I have not read the book (the link in the OP is dead also). But seriously, how do I die broke if I want to???? I retired at 46 and at that point I could live another 46 years (relatives have lived longer than 92). I have no idea if I will inherit money and if so how much. I have no idea how my investments will really perform over the next 40 years. I will get social security....and maybe it will be at current levels. I have no idea what taxes will be in 40 years. If I was 60-70 years old I think I'd have a lot more insight into where I stand. I have a good amount more money now than when I retired 5 years ago, but we've been in a bull market so that is no surprise.

When I run Firecalc and similar I do die broke (actually less than broke) in ~5% of the scenarios if I make it to that age. In some scenarios I have millions of dollars when I die. So, I really don't know how you would truly implement this. Amortized based withdrawal might help....but still....you don't know what age you will die.
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Re: Dying Broke (On Purpose) Article

Post by happyisland »

michaeljc70 wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 4:35 pm I have not read the book (the link in the OP is dead also). But seriously, how do I die broke if I want to???? I retired at 46 and at that point I could live another 46 years (relatives have lived longer than 92). I have no idea if I will inherit money and if so how much. I have no idea how my investments will really perform over the next 40 years. I will get social security....and maybe it will be at current levels. I have no idea what taxes will be in 40 years. If I was 60-70 years old I think I'd have a lot more insight into where I stand. I have a good amount more money now than when I retired 5 years ago, but we've been in a bull market so that is no surprise.

When I run Firecalc and similar I do die broke (actually less than broke) in ~5% of the scenarios if I make it to that age. In some scenarios I have millions of dollars when I die. So, I really don't know how you would truly implement this. Amortized based withdrawal might help....but still....you don't know what age you will die.
Sounds like you should read the book! :D
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Re: Dying Broke (On Purpose) Article

Post by michaeljc70 »

happyisland wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 4:37 pm
michaeljc70 wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 4:35 pm I have not read the book (the link in the OP is dead also). But seriously, how do I die broke if I want to???? I retired at 46 and at that point I could live another 46 years (relatives have lived longer than 92). I have no idea if I will inherit money and if so how much. I have no idea how my investments will really perform over the next 40 years. I will get social security....and maybe it will be at current levels. I have no idea what taxes will be in 40 years. If I was 60-70 years old I think I'd have a lot more insight into where I stand. I have a good amount more money now than when I retired 5 years ago, but we've been in a bull market so that is no surprise.

When I run Firecalc and similar I do die broke (actually less than broke) in ~5% of the scenarios if I make it to that age. In some scenarios I have millions of dollars when I die. So, I really don't know how you would truly implement this. Amortized based withdrawal might help....but still....you don't know what age you will die.
Sounds like you should read the book! :D
I would...if I thought it could answer unanswerable questions!
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Re: Dying Broke (On Purpose) Article

Post by happyisland »

michaeljc70 wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 4:38 pm
happyisland wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 4:37 pm
michaeljc70 wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 4:35 pm I have not read the book (the link in the OP is dead also). But seriously, how do I die broke if I want to???? I retired at 46 and at that point I could live another 46 years (relatives have lived longer than 92). I have no idea if I will inherit money and if so how much. I have no idea how my investments will really perform over the next 40 years. I will get social security....and maybe it will be at current levels. I have no idea what taxes will be in 40 years. If I was 60-70 years old I think I'd have a lot more insight into where I stand. I have a good amount more money now than when I retired 5 years ago, but we've been in a bull market so that is no surprise.

When I run Firecalc and similar I do die broke (actually less than broke) in ~5% of the scenarios if I make it to that age. In some scenarios I have millions of dollars when I die. So, I really don't know how you would truly implement this. Amortized based withdrawal might help....but still....you don't know what age you will die.
Sounds like you should read the book! :D
I would...if I thought it could answer unanswerable questions!
It sounds like you might be missing the point of the "die broke" philosophy. It's not a literal goal of dying with zero dollars. These books and articles just have titles like that to generate attention and sell copies. The focus, rather, is on USING as much of your wealth as possible (on yourself, charities, heirs, etc) while you are still alive to enjoy it. This would be after making sure that all of your needs are met so that you are able to live your desired lifestyle, and have the insurance to cover possible longevity or LTC needs.

Books and articles on the subject typically discuss things like how to turn wealth into income using SPIAs, how to buy LTC insurance, reverse mortgages, etc.
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Re: Dying Broke (On Purpose) Article

Post by RadAudit »

OP, thanks for starting this thread.

The discussion has prompted me toward beginning to give away parts of the estate as early as this year, if only to see how the kids use it. Additionally, it looks as if I'll be on the hook for the grandkids college educations. The IPS says to evenly divide the money between the kids - so, I guess I get to multiply those college costs by two. That should get the estate down closer to the point where neither I nor DW become a burden to the kids - one of the other goals.
FI is the best revenge. LBYM. Invest the rest. Stay the course. Die anyway. - PS: The cavalry isn't coming, kids. You are on your own.
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Taylor Larimore
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Re: Dying Broke (On Purpose) Article

Post by Taylor Larimore »

Bogleheads:

When my wife and I were about 80 years old we bought two single-premium life annuities (SPIAs):

The first was an Aviva SPIA purchased in 2006. We were pleased with the purchase and purchased a Genworth Annuity a year later. Both annuities are easy to understand. They were purchased from www.immediateannuities.com.

Knowing that we had a guaranteed income for for the rest of our lives, our two annuities (together with my pension and social securities) gave us peace of mind and allowed us to start giving our heirs their inheritance (in the form of a monthly allowance) while we are still alive! They love it which pleased us.

I consider our two SPIA annuities the best investments we ever made.

Best wishes.
Taylor
Jack Bogle's Words of Wisdom: "Depending on the particular circumstances, annuities are a good idea, but only annuities available at very low cost and commensurate high return."
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Re: Dying Broke (On Purpose) Article

Post by JayDee37 »

My dad has always said that his goal is to spend his last dollar on the day he dies. I love this approach for my parents. I have taken so much joy in seeing them do so many of the things they've dreamed of doing during retirement, such as buying their little dream cottage in a charming beach town, fixing it up exactly how they want it, tons of travel (Covid and health permitting), little day to day perks like excellent coffee, fresh flowers, meals out (Covid-permitting), etc. It makes me so happy to see them happy and fulfilled and enjoying both the big and little things in life. I wouldn't have it any other way. That's plenty of inheritance. :happy
Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life? | ~Mary Oliver
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