WisdomTree 90/60 US Efficient Core Fund [NTSX] (formerly US Balanced Fund)

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comeinvest
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Re: WisdomTree 90/60 U.S. Balanced Fund [NTSX]

Post by comeinvest »

EfficientInvestor wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 11:21 am I was just looking at their total distributions from 2020. Overall distribution for the year was $0.335 against an average share price through 2020 of around $33. So let's call it a 1% yield, which is pretty tax efficient. Looks like a little less than 10% of the distribution was long term capital gains and the rest was ordinary income.

Charles Schwab has a tax cost ratio analysis that shows NTSX has had a lower tax cost ratio (0.45%) than SPY (0.65%) over the last year.

NTSX - https://www.schwab.com/research/etfs/qu ... lysis/ntsx
SPY - https://www.schwab.com/research/etfs/qu ... alysis/spy
How can the distribution yield be so low, when the dividend yield of the underlying index is much higher, not to mention the taxes on the treasury futures that are marked to market? Are they not passed through?
caklim00
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Re: WisdomTree 90/60 U.S. Balanced Fund [NTSX]

Post by caklim00 »

Of these funds, NTSE is the only one I have any interest in since it could replace Core EM (AVEM) at around the same ER. I would not want to replace any SCV fund with this though so have no use for NTSX or NTSI.
EfficientInvestor
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Re: WisdomTree 90/60 U.S. Balanced Fund [NTSX]

Post by EfficientInvestor »

comeinvest wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 1:14 am How can the distribution yield be so low, when the dividend yield of the underlying index is much higher, not to mention the taxes on the treasury futures that are marked to market? Are they not passed through?
I've been trying to research these questions as well and haven't found solid answers about the inter-workings of these specific funds. I just know that the end result is that they have been tax efficient. So they must be doing something with the creation and redemption of creation units to offset some of the gains. I'm not sure how they get around having a lower dividend yield than SPY unless they are holding a lower portion of stocks that pay a high dividend than what the index holds.
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Re: WisdomTree 90/60 U.S. Balanced Fund [NTSX]

Post by sfmurph »

HawkeyePierce wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 1:51 pm I'd love to see a total world version. I also wouldn't complain about an ex-US small cap version.
I'd also like to see a world version. I could see WisdomTree creating a fund-of-funds with NTSX, NTSI and NTSE that would keep the ability to deduct foreign tax (unlike the issue with VT).

I'd also be interested in a S&P 600 style small cap version
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Re: WisdomTree 90/60 U.S. Balanced Fund [NTSX]

Post by bgf »

EfficientInvestor wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 8:40 am
comeinvest wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 1:14 am How can the distribution yield be so low, when the dividend yield of the underlying index is much higher, not to mention the taxes on the treasury futures that are marked to market? Are they not passed through?
I've been trying to research these questions as well and haven't found solid answers about the inter-workings of these specific funds. I just know that the end result is that they have been tax efficient. So they must be doing something with the creation and redemption of creation units to offset some of the gains. I'm not sure how they get around having a lower dividend yield than SPY unless they are holding a lower portion of stocks that pay a high dividend than what the index holds.
totally guessing here, but the fund owns only 90% SP500 and 10% cash, so the dividend yield from 90% of SP500 will be less than the dividend yield from 100% of SP500.

the treasury futures contracts dont make any interest payments at all.

they may also be able to use the SP500 dividend payments in a tax efficient manner by supplying the cash position and/or paying for the futures??? no clue if that's even legal.

:confused
“TE OCCIDERE POSSUNT SED TE EDERE NON POSSUNT NEFAS EST"
comeinvest
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Re: WisdomTree 90/60 U.S. Balanced Fund [NTSX]

Post by comeinvest »

bgf wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 11:30 am
EfficientInvestor wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 8:40 am
comeinvest wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 1:14 am How can the distribution yield be so low, when the dividend yield of the underlying index is much higher, not to mention the taxes on the treasury futures that are marked to market? Are they not passed through?
I've been trying to research these questions as well and haven't found solid answers about the inter-workings of these specific funds. I just know that the end result is that they have been tax efficient. So they must be doing something with the creation and redemption of creation units to offset some of the gains. I'm not sure how they get around having a lower dividend yield than SPY unless they are holding a lower portion of stocks that pay a high dividend than what the index holds.
totally guessing here, but the fund owns only 90% SP500 and 10% cash, so the dividend yield from 90% of SP500 will be less than the dividend yield from 100% of SP500.

the treasury futures contracts dont make any interest payments at all.

they may also be able to use the SP500 dividend payments in a tax efficient manner by supplying the cash position and/or paying for the futures??? no clue if that's even legal.

:confused
I personally would not put this fund in a taxable account. I wouldn't extrapolate the tax efficiency of 2020 into the future, especially before we have explained it. Regardless of this, I'm hesitant putting any fund in a taxable account - how do I know if it exists in 10 or 20 years, and if it does, whether I still like it. What if, for example, treasury bond interest rates are negative by then like they are in Europe now. I would be stuck with that fund for the rest of my life, or pay gigantic amounts of capital gains tax.
bgf
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Re: WisdomTree 90/60 U.S. Balanced Fund [NTSX]

Post by bgf »

What do you hold in taxable then?
“TE OCCIDERE POSSUNT SED TE EDERE NON POSSUNT NEFAS EST"
mr_mac3
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Re: WisdomTree 90/60 U.S. Balanced Fund [NTSX]

Post by mr_mac3 »

comeinvest wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 8:34 pm
bgf wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 11:30 am
EfficientInvestor wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 8:40 am
comeinvest wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 1:14 am How can the distribution yield be so low, when the dividend yield of the underlying index is much higher, not to mention the taxes on the treasury futures that are marked to market? Are they not passed through?
I've been trying to research these questions as well and haven't found solid answers about the inter-workings of these specific funds. I just know that the end result is that they have been tax efficient. So they must be doing something with the creation and redemption of creation units to offset some of the gains. I'm not sure how they get around having a lower dividend yield than SPY unless they are holding a lower portion of stocks that pay a high dividend than what the index holds.
totally guessing here, but the fund owns only 90% SP500 and 10% cash, so the dividend yield from 90% of SP500 will be less than the dividend yield from 100% of SP500.

the treasury futures contracts dont make any interest payments at all.

they may also be able to use the SP500 dividend payments in a tax efficient manner by supplying the cash position and/or paying for the futures??? no clue if that's even legal.

:confused
I personally would not put this fund in a taxable account. I wouldn't extrapolate the tax efficiency of 2020 into the future, especially before we have explained it. Regardless of this, I'm hesitant putting any fund in a taxable account - how do I know if it exists in 10 or 20 years, and if it does, whether I still like it. What if, for example, treasury bond interest rates are negative by then like they are in Europe now. I would be stuck with that fund for the rest of my life, or pay gigantic amounts of capital gains tax.
Looking at the annual report, it looks like they distribute all the dividends they earn. They seem to be doing some kind of tax loss harvesting (I didn't know that was a thing inside ETFs) to accumulate a bunch of realized capital losses to cancel out the gains from futures. This is my naïve guess.

In the year ending June 30, 2020 they made $1.08M net investment income (dividends + interest - fees) and paid out $1.013 in ordinary income plus $118k is undistributed (ordinary income includes short term cap gains). They had $2.5M realized gains from futures contracts but lost $2.8M from "Investment transactions" and another $1.9M realized gains from redemptions. They paid out $113K in long term capital gains with $250k undistributed realized capital gains. These documents are kinda hard to parse but the Statement of Additional Information makes it sounds like they have to distribute dividends and realized capital gains.

I don't know how to factor in redemptions but it looks like those "Investment transactions" are saving NTSX holders from having to realize capital gains from the futures. I guess what they are doing is some kind of tax loss harvesting but I don't see that claimed in the prospectus. If that is what they are doing that is fantastic for taxable.
mr_mac3
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Re: WisdomTree 90/60 U.S. Balanced Fund [NTSX]

Post by mr_mac3 »

Thank you very much for the interesting links. I am struggling to see how NTSX could use the redemption process to get rid of realized gains from futures. It sounds like they use redemption just to get unrealized gains out of the fund. Here there are realized losses canceling out realized gains. I suspect more than redemptions are going on here.

Few funds have the incentive to harvest losses as NTSX does. Other balanced fund can use these heartbeat trades to get an inflow of cash to buy and redemptions to sell. Sure when NTSX rebalances into futures it could use the heartbeat strategy to sell off appreciated equities but NTSX already has realized gains when it rebalances into equities. NTSX claims to be an active fund, not an index fund, so I think they have the leeway to deviate from the S&P500 enough to do some tax loss harvesting.
NMBob
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Re: WisdomTree 90/60 U.S. Balanced Fund [NTSX]

Post by NMBob »

mr_mac3
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Re: WisdomTree 90/60 U.S. Balanced Fund [NTSX]

Post by mr_mac3 »

NMBob wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 12:26 pm https://www.wisdomtree.com/-/media/us-m ... family.pdf

page 4 "Boosting tax efficiency"
I don't see how this answers the question of small capital gains distributions. I agree that futures are a nice way to hold bonds, but it seems the fund finds a way to avoid paying out the realized gains from futures.
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kevinf
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Re: WisdomTree 90/60 US Efficient Core Fund [NTSX] (formerly US Balanced Fund)

Post by kevinf »

Updated the topic subject with the new fund name; WisdomTree US Efficient Core Fund.
tj
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Re: WisdomTree 90/60 US Efficient Core Fund [NTSX] (formerly US Balanced Fund)

Post by tj »

kevinf wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 10:33 pm Updated the topic subject with the new fund name; WisdomTree US Efficient Core Fund.
Why did they rename it?
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Re: WisdomTree 90/60 US Efficient Core Fund [NTSX] (formerly US Balanced Fund)

Post by kevinf »

They are launching an NTSX-style fund family that includes international and emerging markets ETFs, so presumably to standardize on a better naming convention for these and future funds in the family.
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Re: WisdomTree 90/60 US Efficient Core Fund [NTSX] (formerly US Balanced Fund)

Post by international001 »

Just calculated the total distributions over the past year divided by current price

VOO:1.4 %
NTSX:0.8%

So NTSX is better. (even if it has capital distributions and VOO doesn't) Should we expect this trend to keep going?
tj
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Re: WisdomTree 90/60 US Efficient Core Fund [NTSX] (formerly US Balanced Fund)

Post by tj »

international001 wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 5:33 pm Just calculated the total distributions over the past year divided by current price

VOO:1.4 %
NTSX:0.8%

So NTSX is better. (even if it has capital distributions and VOO doesn't) Should we expect this trend to keep going?
Do you not care about the tracking error? Today S&P 500 was up 20 bps, NTSX was down 20 bps.
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kevinf
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Re: WisdomTree 90/60 US Efficient Core Fund [NTSX] (formerly US Balanced Fund)

Post by kevinf »

tj wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 5:49 pm Do you not care about the tracking error? Today S&P 500 was up 20 bps, NTSX was down 20 bps.
NTSX can track up to a day late and really isn't anything to be concerned about. PSLDX in my Roth is consistently a day behind the S&P 500 movements.
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Re: WisdomTree 90/60 US Efficient Core Fund [NTSX] (formerly US Balanced Fund)

Post by tj »

kevinf wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 6:26 pm
tj wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 5:49 pm Do you not care about the tracking error? Today S&P 500 was up 20 bps, NTSX was down 20 bps.
NTSX can track up to a day late and really isn't anything to be concerned about. PSLDX in my Roth is consistently a day behind the S&P 500 movements.
So what happened today? NTSX was about 20bps above the index for a while today, but it has ended down 76bps while the index is up 12 bps...
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Re: WisdomTree 90/60 US Efficient Core Fund [NTSX] (formerly US Balanced Fund)

Post by 66jazzbass »

tj wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 5:36 pm
kevinf wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 6:26 pm
tj wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 5:49 pm Do you not care about the tracking error? Today S&P 500 was up 20 bps, NTSX was down 20 bps.
NTSX can track up to a day late and really isn't anything to be concerned about. PSLDX in my Roth is consistently a day behind the S&P 500 movements.
So what happened today? NTSX was about 20bps above the index for a while today, but it has ended down 76bps while the index is up 12 bps...
Are you aware that NTSX also holds bond futures? I’m guessing bonds were down today
tj
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Re: WisdomTree 90/60 US Efficient Core Fund [NTSX] (formerly US Balanced Fund)

Post by tj »

66jazzbass wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 5:40 pm
tj wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 5:36 pm
kevinf wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 6:26 pm
tj wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 5:49 pm Do you not care about the tracking error? Today S&P 500 was up 20 bps, NTSX was down 20 bps.
NTSX can track up to a day late and really isn't anything to be concerned about. PSLDX in my Roth is consistently a day behind the S&P 500 movements.
So what happened today? NTSX was about 20bps above the index for a while today, but it has ended down 76bps while the index is up 12 bps...
Are you aware that NTSX also holds bond futures? I’m guessing bonds were down today
Yes. My point was that this fund isn't just a more "tax efficient" version of VOO with 1 day lag in tracking the index.

Also, VGIT is down today, but a pretty negligible amount.
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kevinf
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Re: WisdomTree 90/60 US Efficient Core Fund [NTSX] (formerly US Balanced Fund)

Post by kevinf »

The leveraged ETFs can make determining portfolio balance tricky, but considering NTSX and PSLDX as 100% equity equivalents seems like a reasonable shorthand for making decisions on what to include in your portfolio. WisdomTree also has suggestions on their NTSX page for how to pair this fund with others to take advantage of its unique properties.

Doing a straight substitution of NTSX for VOO is entirely reasonable as well, if it fits your risk tolerance. But I don't remember anyone claiming that it is substantially equivalent to VOO however. The only thing I would expect to closely track the S&P 500, is the S&P 500. Other funds with similar holdings will ride its coattails most of the time, but I would expect occasional dramatic departures if holding this fund long-term.
tj
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Re: WisdomTree 90/60 US Efficient Core Fund [NTSX] (formerly US Balanced Fund)

Post by tj »

kevinf wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 6:03 pm The leveraged ETFs can make determining portfolio balance tricky, but considering NTSX and PSLDX as 100% equity equivalents seems like a reasonable shorthand for making decisions on what to include in your portfolio. WisdomTree also has suggestions on their NTSX page for how to pair this fund with others to take advantage of its unique properties.

Doing a straight substitution of NTSX for VOO is entirely reasonable as well, if it fits your risk tolerance. But I don't remember anyone claiming that it is substantially equivalent to VOO however.
But what does that actually mean? How does knowing that it's "reasonable" help anyone decide to invest in the fund instead of VOO?

If VOO returns 8%/year average, someone should not draw a conclusion that NTSX will also return 8%/year on average, because it's impossible to know that.

We know that VOO will track it's index less fees. We don't know what NTSX will do, because it has different components, and even the equity portion varies from the index.
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Re: WisdomTree 90/60 US Efficient Core Fund [NTSX] (formerly US Balanced Fund)

Post by kevinf »

If the previous 500+ posts didn't help someone to decide whether or not to invest in this fund, then they probably should not.
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Re: WisdomTree 90/60 US Efficient Core Fund [NTSX] (formerly US Balanced Fund)

Post by pepys »

tj wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 5:36 pm
kevinf wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 6:26 pm
tj wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 5:49 pm Do you not care about the tracking error? Today S&P 500 was up 20 bps, NTSX was down 20 bps.
NTSX can track up to a day late and really isn't anything to be concerned about. PSLDX in my Roth is consistently a day behind the S&P 500 movements.
So what happened today? NTSX was about 20bps above the index for a while today, but it has ended down 76bps while the index is up 12 bps...
Given that it collapsed after 3:55 PM, and neither the S&P nor treasuries moved much at this time, my guess is that it was just some weird trades without market makers there to correct it. My understanding is that market makers usually stop operating or widen spreads around that time (just as with at opening). If so, it will probably be up significantly soon after opening tomorrow (relative to where it otherwise would be).
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Re: WisdomTree 90/60 US Efficient Core Fund [NTSX] (formerly US Balanced Fund)

Post by rchmx1 »

pepys wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 10:39 pm Given that it collapsed after 3:55 PM, and neither the S&P nor treasuries moved much at this time, my guess is that it was just some weird trades without market makers there to correct it. My understanding is that market makers usually stop operating or widen spreads around that time (just as with at opening). If so, it will probably be up significantly soon after opening tomorrow (relative to where it otherwise would be).
And so it is. I guess this is just a thing that can happened with the more thinly traded funds?
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Re: WisdomTree 90/60 US Efficient Core Fund [NTSX] (formerly US Balanced Fund)

Post by muffins14 »

rchmx1 wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 8:51 am
pepys wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 10:39 pm Given that it collapsed after 3:55 PM, and neither the S&P nor treasuries moved much at this time, my guess is that it was just some weird trades without market makers there to correct it. My understanding is that market makers usually stop operating or widen spreads around that time (just as with at opening). If so, it will probably be up significantly soon after opening tomorrow (relative to where it otherwise would be).
And so it is. I guess this is just a thing that can happened with the more thinly traded funds?
I suppose, and it seems like it doesn’t really matter long-term
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tj
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Re: WisdomTree 90/60 US Efficient Core Fund [NTSX] (formerly US Balanced Fund)

Post by tj »

muffins14 wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 9:09 am
rchmx1 wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 8:51 am
pepys wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 10:39 pm Given that it collapsed after 3:55 PM, and neither the S&P nor treasuries moved much at this time, my guess is that it was just some weird trades without market makers there to correct it. My understanding is that market makers usually stop operating or widen spreads around that time (just as with at opening). If so, it will probably be up significantly soon after opening tomorrow (relative to where it otherwise would be).
And so it is. I guess this is just a thing that can happened with the more thinly traded funds?
I suppose, and it seems like it doesn’t really matter long-term
True - I guess as long as you don't do market orders very early or very late in the day, you should be fine.
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Re: WisdomTree 90/60 US Efficient Core Fund [NTSX] (formerly US Balanced Fund)

Post by bog007 »

todays tally so far

ntsx +1.18%

vti +.28%
Don’t let anyone else ruin your portfolio. It’s your portfolio. Ruin it yourself!!!
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Re: WisdomTree 90/60 US Efficient Core Fund [NTSX] (formerly US Balanced Fund)

Post by newguy123 »

sadly Merrill doesn't allow me to buy this
Would I rather relax and make money or make money and relax ?
pepys
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Re: WisdomTree 90/60 US Efficient Core Fund [NTSX] (formerly US Balanced Fund)

Post by pepys »

newguy123 wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 10:17 am sadly Merrill doesn't allow me to buy this
It isn't too difficult to get around this restriction if you really want NTSX (or just don't like the restriction). They have a document called "Client Representation Letter for Purchases of Blocked ETPs" that you can sign.
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Re: WisdomTree 90/60 US Efficient Core Fund [NTSX] (formerly US Balanced Fund)

Post by international001 »

tj wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 5:49 pm
international001 wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 5:33 pm Just calculated the total distributions over the past year divided by current price

VOO:1.4 %
NTSX:0.8%

So NTSX is better. (even if it has capital distributions and VOO doesn't) Should we expect this trend to keep going?
Do you not care about the tracking error? Today S&P 500 was up 20 bps, NTSX was down 20 bps.
Not for a given day. It seems to track SP500 quite well over longer term. Even improving it a bit.
But lower taxes is a big point.
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Re: WisdomTree 90/60 US Efficient Core Fund [NTSX] (formerly US Balanced Fund)

Post by keith6014 »

My only gripe with NTSX is there are no options. One can only wish
Tipro
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Re: WisdomTree 90/60 US Efficient Core Fund [NTSX] (formerly US Balanced Fund)

Post by Tipro »

keith6014 wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:53 pm My only gripe with NTSX is there are no options. One can only wish
Are you just wanting to write covered calls? Unsure why you'd want to buy options on this specific fund.
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Re: WisdomTree 90/60 US Efficient Core Fund [NTSX] (formerly US Balanced Fund)

Post by keith6014 »

Tipro wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:00 pm
keith6014 wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:53 pm My only gripe with NTSX is there are no options. One can only wish
Are you just wanting to write covered calls? Unsure why you'd want to buy options on this specific fund.
Would use options as a stock replacement. I would like more leverage.
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Re: WisdomTree 90/60 US Efficient Core Fund [NTSX] (formerly US Balanced Fund)

Post by HolyGrill »

What do you guys think of NTSX's spread? The average spread was around 0.5% last month?
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Re: WisdomTree 90/60 U.S. Balanced Fund [NTSX]

Post by adamhg »

tj wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 10:12 am
crystalbank wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 12:11 pm
coingaroo wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 3:37 am Folks, I'm considering putting $1M into NTSX, alongside about $1M in ASX:VAS (Aus stocks index fund) and $1M in ASX:VGS (Intl developed index fund). I am an Australian investor.

1. Any advice for how to navigate the spread on NTSX? Should I just set up a few orders to buy into the ask, or? I'm using interactive brokers.

With a smaller purchase, I've tried to buy into the mid-price, with zero fills until I bit the bullet and bought into the ask. Jane Street (the market maker) really doesn't like to bite...

2. NTSX seems too good to be true; are there any hidden risks such as issuer risk, custodian risk, etc? I understand that treasury futures are highly liquid, and that there will be far bigger problems to worry about if its 10% posted collateral is not sufficient for 50% of notional treasury futures.

3. If you were investing with a multi-decade time horizon, would you consider investing more into NTSX than VGS?
There's someone in this thread a few pages before who placed a market order for around $400k and it seemed to fill at a decent price, right between bid & ask. I think a market order is a good bet especially for bigger amounts (think >$25k). For smaller amounts, market orders did burn me where it filled above the asking price.

If you're thinking about putting $1M, I'd atleast split it into 4 orders of $250k or even better 10 orders spread out over multiple days.
I placed a couple Market Orders this morning. Just under $115k. There are various lots that were filled between $37.05 and $37.07. They were definitely filled closer to the ask than the bid, my guess is if I had placed limit orders closer to the bid, they would have gone unfilled. In the long run do the pennies even matter?
For what is worth, I can confirm this is accurate. I placed a market order for 8600 shares on Friday and was filed at the ask in a single block. The total volume was under 44k, so that one trade was nearly 20% of the daily volume and probably a bit higher than that when it executed. It took about 30s while others traded through, but really proved to me that market orders are not the same for etfs as they are for stocks.
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Re: WisdomTree 90/60 US Efficient Core Fund [NTSX] (formerly US Balanced Fund)

Post by rchmx1 »

NTSX up 4% in early trading today. What's that about? :shock:
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Re: WisdomTree 90/60 US Efficient Core Fund [NTSX] (formerly US Balanced Fund)

Post by atdharris »

rchmx1 wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 8:10 am NTSX up 4% in early trading today. What's that about? :shock:
I saw... I wonder if that's accurate. I put a bit of my emergency cash into the fund a few months ago and am obviously happy I did.
rchmx1
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Re: WisdomTree 90/60 US Efficient Core Fund [NTSX] (formerly US Balanced Fund)

Post by rchmx1 »

atdharris wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 8:15 am
rchmx1 wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 8:10 am NTSX up 4% in early trading today. What's that about? :shock:
I saw... I wonder if that's accurate. I put a bit of my emergency cash into the fund a few months ago and am obviously happy I did.
I don't expect it to be trading at that level when the market opens. Just something weird about outside hours with this fund that you see sometimes. Just thought it was worth posting to document the huge weird pop.
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Re: WisdomTree 90/60 US Efficient Core Fund [NTSX] (formerly US Balanced Fund)

Post by huzaing »

From another discussion on NTSX I saw this comment. I don't think this was discussed here. Do you agree or disagree on this:
You can possibly withdraw 4% SWR safely with NTSX in several cases that would be failures for 4% SWR for VTSAX or possibly the unlevered 60/40 portfolio. You would have to use the recommended 3% SWR with VTSAX or the traditional 60/40 portfolio.

If you desire $100k of income you only need $2.5 million on NTSX compared to $3.3 million for a safer 3% SWR on VTSAX.
tj
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Re: WisdomTree 90/60 US Efficient Core Fund [NTSX] (formerly US Balanced Fund)

Post by tj »

huzaing wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:33 pm From another discussion on NTSX I saw this comment. I don't think this was discussed here. Do you agree or disagree on this:
You can possibly withdraw 4% SWR safely with NTSX in several cases that would be failures for 4% SWR for VTSAX or possibly the unlevered 60/40 portfolio. You would have to use the recommended 3% SWR with VTSAX or the traditional 60/40 portfolio.

If you desire $100k of income you only need $2.5 million on NTSX compared to $3.3 million for a safer 3% SWR on VTSAX.


What discussion? Can you link to it so we can see the whole discussion?
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kevinf
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Re: WisdomTree 90/60 US Efficient Core Fund [NTSX] (formerly US Balanced Fund)

Post by kevinf »

If you expect higher returns, than you could certainly spend more. So...

In theory, given that NTSX has a higher expected CAGR for reasons discussed earlier in the thread... that would be a reasonable assumption. I think most people would want to see long-term trends for NTSX before making that bet however as we are working off of a limited data set right now.
huzaing
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Re: WisdomTree 90/60 US Efficient Core Fund [NTSX] (formerly US Balanced Fund)

Post by huzaing »

tj wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:47 pm
huzaing wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:33 pm From another discussion on NTSX I saw this comment. I don't think this was discussed here. Do you agree or disagree on this:
You can possibly withdraw 4% SWR safely with NTSX in several cases that would be failures for 4% SWR for VTSAX or possibly the unlevered 60/40 portfolio. You would have to use the recommended 3% SWR with VTSAX or the traditional 60/40 portfolio.

If you desire $100k of income you only need $2.5 million on NTSX compared to $3.3 million for a safer 3% SWR on VTSAX.


What discussion? Can you link to it so we can see the whole discussion?
Sure:
https://www.reddit.com/r/financialindep ... _vtsax_and
sfmurph
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Re: WisdomTree 90/60 US Efficient Core Fund [NTSX] (formerly US Balanced Fund)

Post by sfmurph »

pepys wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 9:39 pm
newguy123 wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 10:17 am sadly Merrill doesn't allow me to buy this
It isn't too difficult to get around this restriction if you really want NTSX (or just don't like the restriction). They have a document called "Client Representation Letter for Purchases of Blocked ETPs" that you can sign.
I just tried this and was declined. Talking with a trade rep, NTSX is "blocked on the platform." Now, it may be that I just got a rep who doesn't know, but I wouldn't say it "It isn't too difficult to get around this restriction." I don't see any form available for me to just sign and send in either.
atdharris
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Re: WisdomTree 90/60 US Efficient Core Fund [NTSX] (formerly US Balanced Fund)

Post by atdharris »

sfmurph wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 11:21 am
pepys wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 9:39 pm
newguy123 wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 10:17 am sadly Merrill doesn't allow me to buy this
It isn't too difficult to get around this restriction if you really want NTSX (or just don't like the restriction). They have a document called "Client Representation Letter for Purchases of Blocked ETPs" that you can sign.
I just tried this and was declined. Talking with a trade rep, NTSX is "blocked on the platform." Now, it may be that I just got a rep who doesn't know, but I wouldn't say it "It isn't too difficult to get around this restriction." I don't see any form available for me to just sign and send in either.
I don't see a form on Merrill's website either. I just get the usual "call this number" for more information. If they are just going to tell me it's "high risk" and I can't buy it, there is no point in me calling.
tj
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Re: WisdomTree 90/60 US Efficient Core Fund [NTSX] (formerly US Balanced Fund)

Post by tj »

Why do you have to use Merrill? Just open a brokerage account somewhere else.
sfmurph
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Re: WisdomTree 90/60 US Efficient Core Fund [NTSX] (formerly US Balanced Fund)

Post by sfmurph »

tj wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 11:28 am Why do you have to use Merrill? Just open a brokerage account somewhere else.
I have just enough at Merrill to get Preferred Rewards for the credit card cash back rates. I'd prefer to own NTSX there, but oh well. I do own it elsewhere.
sfmurph
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Re: WisdomTree 90/60 US Efficient Core Fund [NTSX] (formerly US Balanced Fund)

Post by sfmurph »

atdharris wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 11:27 am
sfmurph wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 11:21 am
pepys wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 9:39 pm
newguy123 wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 10:17 am sadly Merrill doesn't allow me to buy this
It isn't too difficult to get around this restriction if you really want NTSX (or just don't like the restriction). They have a document called "Client Representation Letter for Purchases of Blocked ETPs" that you can sign.
I just tried this and was declined. Talking with a trade rep, NTSX is "blocked on the platform." Now, it may be that I just got a rep who doesn't know, but I wouldn't say it "It isn't too difficult to get around this restriction." I don't see any form available for me to just sign and send in either.
I don't see a form on Merrill's website either. I just get the usual "call this number" for more information. If they are just going to tell me it's "high risk" and I can't buy it, there is no point in me calling.
Yes, I called that number and got a service rep. But then he put me through to a trade rep, which I think was the dead end. It may be that I have to ask the service rep to get a form to unblock some ETPs. Once I got to the trade rep, I was at a dead end. I may try again.
atdharris
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Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:18 pm

Re: WisdomTree 90/60 US Efficient Core Fund [NTSX] (formerly US Balanced Fund)

Post by atdharris »

sfmurph wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 12:02 pm
atdharris wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 11:27 am
sfmurph wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 11:21 am
pepys wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 9:39 pm
newguy123 wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 10:17 am sadly Merrill doesn't allow me to buy this
It isn't too difficult to get around this restriction if you really want NTSX (or just don't like the restriction). They have a document called "Client Representation Letter for Purchases of Blocked ETPs" that you can sign.
I just tried this and was declined. Talking with a trade rep, NTSX is "blocked on the platform." Now, it may be that I just got a rep who doesn't know, but I wouldn't say it "It isn't too difficult to get around this restriction." I don't see any form available for me to just sign and send in either.
I don't see a form on Merrill's website either. I just get the usual "call this number" for more information. If they are just going to tell me it's "high risk" and I can't buy it, there is no point in me calling.
Yes, I called that number and got a service rep. But then he put me through to a trade rep, which I think was the dead end. It may be that I have to ask the service rep to get a form to unblock some ETPs. Once I got to the trade rep, I was at a dead end. I may try again.
It would be disappointing if Merrill wholesale blocked everyone from trading funds like NTSX. I've read about the form others have signed that allows them to buy anything they want, so I have to think it exists.
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