What is your overall portfolio weighted expense ratio

Big Dutch · Post by **Big Dutch** » Fri Jun 10, 2016 10:50 am

0.29% including being stuck with some higher cost, active American funds in 401k. Still working on simplifying and reducing expenses across other accounts.

lostdog · Post by **lostdog** » Fri Jun 10, 2016 10:50 am

lostdog wrote:
clast wrote:0.14% here.

BTW for anyone using Google Spreadsheets, you can get the expense ratio for a mutual fund almost the same way you can get the current price:

= GOOGLEFINANCE("VTSAX","expenseratio")

Clast,

When I used this in my spreadsheet it came up with 5%.

I found the issue. I have to format the cell as "number" instead of percent.

sperry8 · Post by **sperry8** » Fri Jun 10, 2016 10:56 am

.30% average Highest fund costs me .64% (which is DODFX).

eatsleepflyguy · Post by **eatsleepflyguy** » Fri Jun 10, 2016 11:12 am

Ticker -------- Fund ----------------------- EXP Ratio ---------------- % of Portfolio

401K
VFORX Vanguard Target Retirement 2040 Fund Investor Shares 0.07 2.01%
VTIVX Vanguard Target Retirement 2045 Fund Investor Shares 0.16 1.76%
RLBEX American Funds American Balanced Fund® Class R-4 0.63 0.61%
VFIAX Vanguard 500 Index Fund Admiral Class 0.05 0.60%
FUSEX Fidelity Spartan® 500 Index Fund Investor Class 0.1 53.26%

Roth IRA
VGSLX Vanguard REIT Index Fund Admiral Shares 0.12 9.39%
VB Vanguard Small-Cap Index Fund 0.09 5.04%
BND Vanguard Total Bond Market ETF 0.07 3.08%

Taxable
VTIAX Vanguard Total International Stock Index Fund Admiral Shares 0.12 8.36%
VWLTX Vanguard Long-Term Tax-Exempt Fund 0.2 2.72%
VWSTX Vanguard Short-Term Tax-Exempt Fund 0.2 2.44%
VTMSX Vanguard Tax-Managed Small Cap Fund Admiral Shares 0.11 10.15%

Blended Expense Ratio: 0.11

I have multiple 401K's . As you can see FUSEX is the one I primarily use. I have horrible bond and limited international choices so I am forced to put bonds and International in my taxable and roth.

swellkarl · Post by **swellkarl** » Fri Jun 10, 2016 6:17 pm

Under 0.07%, including a $28.75/quarter admin fee for my employer's Vanguard 401k plan.

Dandy · Post by **Dandy** » Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:39 pm

What exactly are the expenses for I bonds and individual treasuries (or any individual stocks or bonds for that matter)? I hold the paper I bonds myself and the TIPS are help in an IRA. In neither case is there any expense to holding them. The bonus is the averaging in of 0.0% expense into the overall portfolio.

Here is how I look at it:

Let's take a savings account first. The bank pays you a rate on a savings account and that is net of expenses that they incur related to opening the account, posting interest, answering questions, creating tax forms and mailing tax forms, maintaining systems, etc. All those expenses are similar to what a mutual fund has to do with there accounts. A mutual fund has to show you those costs as a percent of assets in an expense ratio. The savings account just has to show you the interest you have earned "net" its expenses but you never know how much those expenses are. So the bank could be earning 3% and taking 2% off your savings and pay you the net of 1%. So if you are trying to compare your overall weighted portfolio expense ratio you are missing that info for savings accounts.

What would it look like if mutual funds didn't have to reveal their expense ratio. It is quite a disadvantage compared to other investment/savings choices. It makes it impossible to determine what your weighted expense ratio is if you hold products that only reveal your net returns. Without it you don't really know how much you may be getting gouged.

Many other products have expenses associated with their issue, service activities. Most just reduce the return you get without you knowing what they are. But they did reduce your return - you are paying for them without knowing what the expense pain is. It is as if the I bond was going to pay 1% but since it costs the Treasury 3/4% to run the program they only pay 1/4%. (numbers just to make for easy math). You are stating that holding an I bond doesn't cost you anything. I say you are you just don't see it because the product isn't forced by law to tell you.

I don't have enough knowledge to make the same case for individual stocks or bonds. But the expenses associated with issuing, redeeming, paying dividends, issuing tax forms etc. are being incurred and someone is paying them and the holder is likely candidate. Lower divs or interest?

SnowSkier · Post by **SnowSkier** » Fri Jun 10, 2016 10:03 pm

I was pleasantly surprised to see 0.22% overall,

in spite of having 10% in AQR long-short funds at 1.55%.

It helps that my 401k has S&P500 at 0.025%

LAlearning · Post by **LAlearning** » Fri Jun 10, 2016 10:12 pm

0.09%....including 3 different 401k plans.

clast · Post by **clast** » Fri Jun 10, 2016 11:43 pm

lostdog wrote:
lostdog wrote:
When I used this in my spreadsheet it came up with 5%.
I found the issue. I have to format the cell as "number" instead of percent.

Yeah I had to divide the value by 100 so it makes sense when formatted as a percent.

truenorth418 · Post by **truenorth418** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:10 am

.07%.

imabeliever · Post by **imabeliever** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:19 am

.15% across all the 401k, IRA, brokerage accounts.

after spending time reading "four pillars of investing" and the numerous topics here plus some bogle books, i was able to take my previous portfolio and drop the total % of projected earnings lost to expenses from 6% to below 3%. That is a very large sum of money across 20+ years.

i could get .15% lower but i'm ok with a couple of the ETF's i'm holding as my "speculative" money, namely IBB and IAU. i use "personalcapital.com" which does a nice job of doing a 401k fee analyzer across all your portfolios/holdings.

wander · Post by **wander** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 6:52 am

I still have active funds in the firm that does not have index funds. My total expense ratio is 0.37%.

danaht · Post by **danaht** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 7:19 am

I am at .09% according to Vanguard. You can calculate this easily by going to Vanguard and entering all of your funds (and stocks) that are not managed by Vanguard as "Outside" investments. Once all of funds/stocks are entered - then go to My Accounts->Portfolio Watch->Costs, Taxes, & Manager Risk. Vanguard will show your expense ratio along with the industry average (1.02%), and the Vanguard average (.18%). My expense ratio is higher than I would like it to be because I have started adding Foreign Market ETFs (IEMG, VEA, VWO, SCHE, SCHF, IXUS, etc). These all have a little higher expense ratios than domestic. My only 401k is with Charles Schwab, and it's a solo 401k. The rest of my accounts are in other discount brokers like Vanguard - so I don't have any annual management fees (or maintenance fees) for any of my accounts. I only pay the expense ratio for the ETFs/mutual funds that are held.

student · Post by **student** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 7:36 am

According to Personal Capital, it is 0.27% across all accounts.

TheTimeLord · Post by **TheTimeLord** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 7:41 am

happysteward wrote:Hello fellow Bogleheads,

For those who know, what is the weighted overall expense ratio of your portfolio ?

I am really interested in those who still have a 401(k) as part of their portfolio...mine is 0.75% (75 bps)

Just a reality check on my part, for those who responded with ERs of something less than 0.10 % (10 bps) or so, are you including all the expense burdens from your 401(k)? I am quite sure that the 401(k) portion of the retirement portfolio has to include a "recordkeeper" as well as a "financial advisor" to be legal. Each of those entities , at least in my experience, enjoy 0.25 % (25 bps). So I was expecting numbers starting at 0.50% (50 bps) from those accounts with a significant 401(k) portion.

What action would you take based on this calculation? If you had selected a fund for your portfolio I would think you evaluated the ER at that time, would you change it based on the overall ER. Seems like nothing more than a point of curiosity.

happysteward · Post by **happysteward** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 9:36 am

Good question! For me understanding how my 401(k) expenses are taken care of was important. In my particular case I am in the process of recommending a change to my companies 401(k). I did not realize that becauseof the "revenue sharing" structure of my plan my employer had shifted all its recordkeeping and financial advisor cost to me. How? It was buried in the share class of the funds offered in the plan (seemingly high ERs). My employer nor its other employees did not fully understand this either. Now I am lobbying for a different plan with a different rate structure that make the recordkeeping and financial advisor fees much more transparent. I am hoping to work with my employer and have them take some of these administrative costs on.

MnD · Post by **MnD** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 10:20 am

.11%.
If I didn't have 4 Dodge and Cox funds it would be a lot lower.

imabeliever · Post by **imabeliever** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 10:33 am

i think this is a really good question and one that is worth being added to your "checklist" when doing a review. i had a portfolio that overall was meeting my asset allocation - however there are only so many things i can keep track off and between multiple 401k's, IRAs, brokerage accounts, 529s, i hadn't taken a step back and looked across all of them to identify what changes could be made.

by putting in a bit of effort to compare different choices, especially with iShares ETFs combined with no commission fees (@Fidelity), i made a really big reduction in fees.

there are going to be those of you who have been managing your portfolios who have subscribed to the 'boglehead' way of investing that this might just be as natural as breathing. then there will be others who are just starting to realize how powerful ER's are, maybe haven't really taken a moment to asses their overall ER, who will benefit from this question/thread.

nice job OP, good topic for discussion!

Christine_NM · Post by **Christine_NM** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 10:49 am

0.107%, all index funds except Wellesley Adm. If its ER were 8 bp, the ratio would be 0.078%.

snarlyjack · Post by **snarlyjack** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:01 am

My view is cost matter & matter a lot.
I have 1 fund: Total Stock Market Fund Admiral Shares, .05 ER
Super diversified...super efficient.

RNJ · Post by **RNJ** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:27 am

It's the first # I see when I open up my spreadsheet (updated automatically): .18% for a small, value and globally tilted portfolio.

nolesrule · Post by **nolesrule** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:30 am

I'm at 0.124%, but I expect it to rise quickly, as I have one of those expensive 401k plans that I only just started contributing to in March.

We were hovering around 0.09% prior to me starting the 401k.

Spirit Rider · Post by **Spirit Rider** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:05 pm

Dandy wrote:
What exactly are the expenses for I bonds and individual treasuries (or any individual stocks or bonds for that matter)? I hold the paper I bonds myself and the TIPS are held in an IRA. In neither case is there any expense to holding them. The bonus is the averaging in of 0.0% expense into the overall portfolio.
Here is how I look at it:

...

I don't have enough knowledge to make the same case for individual stocks or bonds. But the expenses associated with issuing, redeeming, paying dividends, issuing tax forms etc. are being incurred and someone is paying them and the holder is likely candidate. Lower divs or interest?

I think you are really overthinking this.

I seriously doubt any Boglehead is trying to assess an expense ratio to their savings accounts or CDs, even though they may be backed by some other fixed income securities. It is even more of a stretch on Savings Bonds which are simply standalone instruments.

It totally falls apart on individual securities. Otherwise everyone here would have to add these additional phantom expense ratios to every expense ratio from a mutual fund that holds stocks and/or bonds.

telemark · Post by **telemark** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:24 pm

0.30% across my two 401Ks. Highest ratio is 0.58% for PICYX in my current plan, lowest is 0.062% for an unnamed international index in my old plan. I also have a small Roth IRA and taxable account at Vanguard. Including those would lower the total, but not by very much. Given the generally expensive choices in my current plan, I'm pleased that the overall ratio is this low.

And I see I'm paying about $2300 a year in expenses, mostly in the current plan. Fortunately the company match is higher than this.

galeno · Post by **galeno** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:34 pm

ER = 0.24% + TR (tax ratio) = 0.15% + Miscellaneous (wire transfers, IBC maintenance, rebalancing costs, exchange rate costs, etc.) = 0.10%.

TER (total expense ratio) = 0.49%. Call it 0.5%.

gas_balloon · Post by **gas_balloon** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 1:28 pm

.09 across all accounts, including 401k (Fidelity), Roth IRA (Vanguard), 529 plan (Utah/UESP), and brokerage account (vanguard).

My 401k contains nice institutional level funds for bonds (VBTIX), S&P 500 (FXSIX), extended market (FSEVX), and international market (VTSNX) with very low ER. The Fidelity funds have an extra .01 ER than advertised (example, .05 instead of .04). I feel fortunate to have a very nice 401k plan offered by my employer.

My ROTH IRA has few funds with under $10,000 in it, increasing my overall weighted expense ratio slightly. I'd be under 0.08 otherwise if I had the Admiral equivalent level.

JamalJones · Post by **JamalJones** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 1:55 pm

baw703916 wrote:
earlgrey wrote:Somewhere between 0.03% - 0.05% (can't input TSP funds into the Morningstar x-ray tool to get the exact ER)
Looks like 2.9 basis points for all the TSP funds in 2015

https://www.tsp.gov/InvestmentFunds/Fun ... Ratio.html

Yes, but what is the true cost? Lots of people throw around that 0.029% number, but look at the administrative fees for the TSP. It's much more expensive than people realize.

technovelist · Post by **technovelist** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 2:29 pm

About 0.16% if I don't count the costs of my deferred fixed annuities, which would be pretty hard because my insurance companies don't publish those (as others have mentioned for things like CDs).

William4u · Post by **William4u** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 4:04 pm

I'm at 0.12% now. What raises it is some of my tax deferred only has access to Vanguard Investor shares, which have a higher ER. It would be about half that otherwise.

Phineas J. Whoopee · Post by **Phineas J. Whoopee** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 7:23 pm

Confining my answer to what I think of as my retirement portfolio (which is mental accounting), nine basis points. Otherwise, if we use all financial assets (excluding only the value of my dwelling), rounded to the nearest bp it's nine. That isn't a typo.

I recently made a change which raised it from seven, but I had another good reason, convincing at least to myself and I won't post it, to do so. The decision wasn't based on the 0.02% cost difference, 0.0002, two parts in ten thousand, of portfolio annually, but I did notice, and in my personal situation it's worth the extra money, at least for now and the next several years. Then I'll re-evaluate.

To put it another way, a basis point or two of expense in either direction makes no material difference over my remaining investing lifetime, even if I live way longer than average.

PJW

ruralavalon · Post by **ruralavalon** » Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:33 am

Phineas J. Whoopee wrote:To put it another way, a basis point or two of expense in either direction makes no material difference over my remaining investing lifetime, even if I live way longer than average.

That's true enough, a couple of basis points is likely to be immaterial. There comes a point where expenses are so small that a further reduction can't really matter. Other factors, like withdrawal rate, are much more important. Still I smile whenever Vanguard shaves a point or two off of one of the funds I am using.

These threads about overall average expense ratio are just a curiosity, not actionable information for me. But this type of thread may prompt others to take a closer look at their investing expenses.

JamalJones · Post by **JamalJones** » Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:53 am

But anyway, mine would be 0.05%: TSP (including admin fees)+Vanguard Roth IRA.

GreatOdinsRaven · Post by **GreatOdinsRaven** » Sun Jun 12, 2016 1:10 pm

All accounts: 0.26%
401(k): 0.32% (largely affected by higher DFA ERs).

As an aside, The OP asked about all expenses including advisory and record keeping fees. All 401(k) plans have these. Many plans pay these expenses through participant fees baked into the account. Our company actually pays the expenses directly- outside of the plan. Our plan participants don't shoulder any additional expenses for these record keeping and advisory fees. For those who are interested the plan sponsor (the owners of the company, for which I am one) pay 0.20% in record keeping and advisory fees. If we didn't shoulder this burden directly the plan participants would be paying those expenses in one way or another (it wouldn't be obvious to the plan participants. This extra fee would be in additional to the ER for individual mutual funds). For example instead of my weighted 401(k) "costing" 0.32% it would be 0.32 + 0.20 = 0.52%. As it stands now as an owner I'm paying my fair share plus the costs of all non owner participants, but not via fees taken from 401(k) balances (instead through pretax company revenue). There are no free lunches.

jay22 · Post by **jay22** » Sun Jun 12, 2016 1:26 pm

0.22%. That's with a 90/10 allocation, with 20% of the equities in active funds.

steve roy · Post by **steve roy** » Sun Jun 12, 2016 3:00 pm

Either 9 or 10 basis points. With Vanguard we're at 11 basis points, and the wife has a chunk of money with TSP which averages 3-4 basis points.

I'm doing back-of-the-envelope guesstimate. Might be as low as 8 basis points, who knows?

aj76er · Post by **aj76er** » Sun Jun 12, 2016 3:08 pm

0.09%

Messy_Orchid_51 · Post by **Messy_Orchid_51** » Sun Jun 12, 2016 3:48 pm

I calculate the dollar value of each fund multiplied by the ER.

I add those amounts and divide by the total portfolio value.

Ex: $50,000 in VFIAX x an ER 0.05 = $25 and $10,000 in VBTLX x an ER of 0.007 = $7. Therefore, $34/year (27+7) divided by total value of 60,000 (50,000 + 10,000) = 0.056% weighted ER.

The overall weighted ER for me is 0.103%. The highest ER is a bond fund in my 401k PBDIX at 0.3. The lowest is VTSAX is my taxable account at 0.05.

HoboKent · Post by **HoboKent** » Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:54 am

Retirement portfolio: 4.6 basis points including 401k admin fee and the admin fee on SO's TSP.

About 50% of that is in my Roth 401k VIIIX fund at 0.02%.

boo-yah · Post by **boo-yah** » Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:36 am

0.22% overall. If I take out TIAA real estate (ER 0.92%) it drops to 0.13%, and if I also take out TIAA traditional (ER of zero) then it goes back up to 0.15% for just the mutual funds and one ETF.

krannerd · Post by **krannerd** » Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:50 am

0.11% including all investments. My worst fund is 0.26% (small cap fund in the 401k...working to get rid of this).

jharkin · Post by **jharkin** » Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:52 am

Tricky... depends on how I calculate.

If I take the funds ERs divided by total in funds I get 0.124%. Helps that my 401k offers VINIX and that's my core us stock holding.

If I add in the 401k admin fees (vary year to year from .05% to .14%) and also add in my wife's TIAA traditional annuity money to the denominator I get around 0.120%

uncaD · Post by **uncaD** » Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:03 am

0.07% all in

Cruncher · Post by **Cruncher** » Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:11 pm

0.13%, across all accounts, though I do have some active (DFA) funds mixed in there.

That being said, we've recently achieved access to some new VG funds at my 401k.

VITSX (we already had VIIIX; I haven't decided on which to invest in, the total US mkt or just stick with SP500), VTSNX & VBTIX.

Going the 3-fund route forward (assuming REIT is covered enough in the equity MFs), an 90/10 mix (I know super aggressive; ironically enough I like volatility

):

60% VIIIX
30% VTSNX
10% VBTIX

Expense ratio is 0.05% going forward. I may decide to go the Total US mkt route, if so, it'll increase a tad to 0.059%

Thanks Jack!

Steadfast · Post by **Steadfast** » Mon Jun 13, 2016 2:04 pm

0.11%

spartanap · Post by **spartanap** » Mon Jun 13, 2016 8:47 pm

30% of my portfolio WAS with Edward Jones. Said goodbye to EJ and I went from .60 to .14.

BW1985 · Post by **BW1985** » Mon Jun 20, 2016 4:49 pm

goingup wrote:
happysteward wrote: Just a reality check on my part, for those who responded with ERs of something less than 0.10 % (10 bps) or so, are you including all the expense burdens from your 401(k)? I am quite sure that the 401(k) portion of the retirement portfolio has to include a "recordkeeper" as well as a "financial advisor" to be legal. Each of those entities , at least in my experience, enjoy 0.25 % (25 bps). So I was expecting numbers starting at 0.50% (50 bps) from those accounts with a significant 401(k) portion.
happysteward-
You're quite right about many 401K plans having a record-keeping/admin fee in addition to the fund's ER. Not all plans pass on those costs to participants, however. I don't think there's any uniformity such as a .25-.50% record-keeping burden. Just depends on the plan.

My 401(k) is managed by Vanguard and I haven't been able to find any additional admin type fee disclosed. Maybe VG doesn't have this fee?

Morik · Post by **Morik** » Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:52 pm

According to personal capital I'm at 0.32% blended ER.

This includes TIAA Real estate at 0.89%, which is not apples-to-apples with people who have REITs. (My understanding is that REIT expense ratios are what the REIT adds on top of the underlying businesses' expesnes. TIAA Real Estate's expense ratio is the expense of the underlying business.)

Dropping those down to 0% gives me a 0.21% blended ER, which is probably closer to comparable to others who have REITs instead of TREA.

My main expensive things are:
TIAA real estate (0.89%)
micro caps (BRSIX @ 0.78%)
international SCV (EWX @ 0.65%)
US SCV (VTWV @ 0.2%)

However, they are completely discounting my holding of TIAA traditional (ignoring it since it doesn't have an ER).
Though that is probably fine for comparative purposes since people aren't (presumably) including their bank balances in the weighted total ER calculation.

EDIT: Oh and my overall 401(k) record-keeping fees are a flat $5.25/quarter, taken from my holdings (by weight).

Morik · Post by **Morik** » Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:06 pm

BW1985 wrote:
goingup wrote:
happysteward wrote: Just a reality check on my part, for those who responded with ERs of something less than 0.10 % (10 bps) or so, are you including all the expense burdens from your 401(k)? I am quite sure that the 401(k) portion of the retirement portfolio has to include a "recordkeeper" as well as a "financial advisor" to be legal. Each of those entities , at least in my experience, enjoy 0.25 % (25 bps). So I was expecting numbers starting at 0.50% (50 bps) from those accounts with a significant 401(k) portion.
happysteward-
You're quite right about many 401K plans having a record-keeping/admin fee in addition to the fund's ER. Not all plans pass on those costs to participants, however. I don't think there's any uniformity such as a .25-.50% record-keeping burden. Just depends on the plan.
My 401(k) is managed by Vanguard and I haven't been able to find any additional admin type fee disclosed. Maybe VG doesn't have this fee?

My 401k is with Vanguard and I am charged $5/quarter out of my holdings. (Turns out its $5.25)
I looked around on the website and found it under "Plan Communications" in the "Plan Details" menu dropdown from the upper part of the page.
This is after pulling up my 401k plan area.
There was a document called "Fee Disclosure" which indicated that participants are charged $21/year for recordkeeping.

resurgemus · Post by **resurgemus** » Mon Jun 20, 2016 8:39 pm

0.11%, but I'm nearing the threshold for Admiral in a pair of funds which will drop it to 0.09%.

carolinaman · Post by **carolinaman** » Tue Jun 21, 2016 6:28 am

6.9 basis points, no 401k. Mine is so low because 30% is in CDs which have no ER.