Crypto mania !

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JonnyDVM
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Re: Crypto mania !

Post by JonnyDVM »

I’m trying to buy after a deposit and it’s not going well. Coinbase pro really not faring well at the moment.
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Re: Crypto mania !

Post by danbdzs »

watchnerd wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 7:25 pm
JonnyDVM wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 7:13 pm

Wrong. I think I got my Etherium buy in on the third go? Maybe?
I was expecting some Eth fire sale price, but it's still above $3800, which is above the price I purchased at.

BTC looks to be climbing back up from $47k.
After the extensive talk (i.e. Praha), the momentum, and probably some learning (as of recent), are you considering overweight in ETH?
I'm considering it myself.
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Re: Crypto mania !

Post by JonnyDVM »

danbdzs wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 7:31 pm
watchnerd wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 7:25 pm
JonnyDVM wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 7:13 pm

Wrong. I think I got my Etherium buy in on the third go? Maybe?
I was expecting some Eth fire sale price, but it's still above $3800, which is above the price I purchased at.

BTC looks to be climbing back up from $47k.
After the extensive talk (i.e. Praha), the momentum, and probably some learning (as of recent), are you considering overweight in ETH?
I'm considering it myself.
I just did and I keep tying to deposit and buy Bitcoin on sale and it’s not working!!! Stop going back up dammit!!! !!!!!!!!!
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Re: Crypto mania !

Post by langlands »

sid hartha wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 2:53 pm Is there a large derivatives market based on crypto that presents a systemic risk? I'm just askin' for a friend.
https://coinmarketcap.com/rankings/exch ... rivatives/

The most volume they do is around $100 billion per day, which is tiny compared to established derivatives markets.
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Re: Crypto mania !

Post by watchnerd »

danbdzs wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 7:31 pm

After the extensive talk (i.e. Praha), the momentum, and probably some learning (as of recent), are you considering overweight in ETH?
I'm considering it myself.
I was temporarily allocating BTC's market weight to ETH while I figured out if I wanted to hold 2 different Grayscale funds with a high ER.
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Re: Crypto mania !

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JonnyDVM wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 7:21 pm You know. I have to admit- I’m a bit disappointed that not a single Boglehead pointed out that crypto was a risky, volatile investment. Where were you guys on this one ? :confused
I just stopped by this thread to see how you guys were doing...I really miss the GME thread. How’s it going over here?
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Re: Crypto mania !

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lazynovice wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 7:59 pm
JonnyDVM wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 7:21 pm You know. I have to admit- I’m a bit disappointed that not a single Boglehead pointed out that crypto was a risky, volatile investment. Where were you guys on this one ? :confused
I just stopped by this thread to see how you guys were doing...I really miss the GME thread. How’s it going over here?
Great if you like servers of companies you’re also invested in getting jammed up preventing you from buying a crypto flash crash.

Sometime it almost feels like it would be easier to just keep a three fund portfolio.
Last edited by JonnyDVM on Wed May 12, 2021 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Crypto mania !

Post by lazynovice »

Tesla bought 1.5 billion in Bitcoin in February and now Elon says he isn’t going to accept it anymore. So did Tesla sell its Bitcoin before the announcement? And if so, is there any regulator who can look into this? Or no?

Edited: And what happens to the index funds that hold Tesla tomorrow?
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Re: Crypto mania !

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lazynovice wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 8:07 pm Tesla bought 1.5 billion in Bitcoin in February and now Elon says he isn’t going to accept it anymore. So did Tesla sell its Bitcoin before the announcement? And if so, is there any regulator who can look into this? Or no?

Edited: And what happens to the index funds that hold Tesla tomorrow?
No, at least publicly, Elon stated they are keeping remaining BTC but not transacting. Not sure what the game plan there is.
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Re: Crypto mania !

Post by OohLaLa »

watchnerd wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 7:27 pm Trading tools needs sound effects for days like this.
*horn instrument* bwah bwah bwaahh bwaaaaaahhhh
or a whoopie cushion sound like the Easter egg in Tesla cars.
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Re: Crypto mania !

Post by lazynovice »

OohLaLa wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 8:15 pm
lazynovice wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 8:07 pm Tesla bought 1.5 billion in Bitcoin in February and now Elon says he isn’t going to accept it anymore. So did Tesla sell its Bitcoin before the announcement? And if so, is there any regulator who can look into this? Or no?

Edited: And what happens to the index funds that hold Tesla tomorrow?
No, at least publicly, Elon stated they are keeping remaining BTC but not transacting. Not sure what the game plan there is.
He tweeted a poll out last night asking if people wanted Tesla to accept Doge. 78% voted yes. Today he makes this announcement.
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Re: Crypto mania !

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lazynovice wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 8:20 pm
OohLaLa wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 8:15 pm
lazynovice wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 8:07 pm Tesla bought 1.5 billion in Bitcoin in February and now Elon says he isn’t going to accept it anymore. So did Tesla sell its Bitcoin before the announcement? And if so, is there any regulator who can look into this? Or no?

Edited: And what happens to the index funds that hold Tesla tomorrow?
No, at least publicly, Elon stated they are keeping remaining BTC but not transacting. Not sure what the game plan there is.
He tweeted a poll out last night asking if people wanted Tesla to accept Doge. 78% voted yes. Today he makes this announcement.
But Doge is no better at energy wastage than BTC.
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Re: Crypto mania !

Post by F150HD »

Never Mind: Elon Musk Says Tesla Won't Accept Bitcoin For Car Purchases Any More

Tesla is executing a rapid U-turn on Bitcoin.

Months after Tesla embraced Bitcoin, CEO Elon Musk said on Wednesday the auto maker would no longer accept the cryptocurrency for car purchases due to its environmental impact.
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Re: Crypto mania !

Post by chinchin »

watchnerd wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 8:21 pm
lazynovice wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 8:20 pm
OohLaLa wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 8:15 pm
lazynovice wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 8:07 pm Tesla bought 1.5 billion in Bitcoin in February and now Elon says he isn’t going to accept it anymore. So did Tesla sell its Bitcoin before the announcement? And if so, is there any regulator who can look into this? Or no?

Edited: And what happens to the index funds that hold Tesla tomorrow?
No, at least publicly, Elon stated they are keeping remaining BTC but not transacting. Not sure what the game plan there is.
He tweeted a poll out last night asking if people wanted Tesla to accept Doge. 78% voted yes. Today he makes this announcement.
But Doge is no better at energy wastage than BTC.
According to this article it's almost 6000x times more efficient.

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-styl ... 46675.html
Last edited by chinchin on Wed May 12, 2021 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Crypto mania !

Post by Hustlinghustling »

langlands wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 7:40 pm
sid hartha wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 2:53 pm Is there a large derivatives market based on crypto that presents a systemic risk? I'm just askin' for a friend.
https://coinmarketcap.com/rankings/exch ... rivatives/

The most volume they do is around $100 billion per day, which is tiny compared to established derivatives markets.
This small derivatives market is what's likely driving the still nascent crypto lending market. Of course there will be other uses for lending, but the overcollateralization structure that mirrors the equity shortsell structure suggests this is the main point currently. You can't write options or futures contracts on any cryptocurrency without a facility to borrow it to create short exposure.
Last edited by Hustlinghustling on Wed May 12, 2021 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Crypto mania !

Post by watchnerd »

chinchin wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 8:29 pm

According to this article it's almost 600x times more efficient.

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-styl ... 46675.html
paywall :|
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Re: Crypto mania !

Post by chinchin »

watchnerd wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 8:34 pm
chinchin wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 8:29 pm

According to this article it's almost 600x times more efficient.

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-styl ... 46675.html
paywall :|
Try this.

Also I had a typo, it's closer to 6000x less energy per transaction. https://www.trgdatacenters.com/most-env ... urrencies/
not financial advice
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Re: Crypto mania !

Post by OohLaLa »

lazynovice wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 8:20 pm
OohLaLa wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 8:15 pm
lazynovice wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 8:07 pm Tesla bought 1.5 billion in Bitcoin in February and now Elon says he isn’t going to accept it anymore. So did Tesla sell its Bitcoin before the announcement? And if so, is there any regulator who can look into this? Or no?

Edited: And what happens to the index funds that hold Tesla tomorrow?
No, at least publicly, Elon stated they are keeping remaining BTC but not transacting. Not sure what the game plan there is.
He tweeted a poll out last night asking if people wanted Tesla to accept Doge. 78% voted yes. Today he makes this announcement.
I answered your question about Tesla dumping its Bitcoin: they are saying they are maintaining their funds but not transacting with them.

My comment on game plan was more along the lines of: "Why would you tank the value of BTC, that you hold in reserves and stated you will keep, without adding on more?" What motive can regulators reasonably assign, and one that can be confirmed?

Doge dumped too, btw, so none of the top coins came out of this unscathed. Doge went down almost 20%, when eye-balling.
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Re: Crypto mania !

Post by lazynovice »

OohLaLa wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 8:41 pm
lazynovice wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 8:20 pm
OohLaLa wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 8:15 pm
lazynovice wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 8:07 pm Tesla bought 1.5 billion in Bitcoin in February and now Elon says he isn’t going to accept it anymore. So did Tesla sell its Bitcoin before the announcement? And if so, is there any regulator who can look into this? Or no?

Edited: And what happens to the index funds that hold Tesla tomorrow?
No, at least publicly, Elon stated they are keeping remaining BTC but not transacting. Not sure what the game plan there is.
He tweeted a poll out last night asking if people wanted Tesla to accept Doge. 78% voted yes. Today he makes this announcement.
I answered your question about Tesla dumping its Bitcoin: they are saying they are maintaining their funds but not transacting with them.

My comment on game plan was more along the lines of: "Why would you tank the value of BTC, that you hold in reserves and stated you will keep, without adding on more?" What motive can regulators reasonably assign, and one that can be confirmed?

Doge dumped too, btw, so none of the top coins came out of this unscathed. Doge went down almost 20%, when eye-balling.
Seems pretty clear to me he is pumping up Doge.
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Re: Crypto mania !

Post by txhill »

lazynovice wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 8:52 pm
OohLaLa wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 8:41 pm
lazynovice wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 8:20 pm
OohLaLa wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 8:15 pm
lazynovice wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 8:07 pm Tesla bought 1.5 billion in Bitcoin in February and now Elon says he isn’t going to accept it anymore. So did Tesla sell its Bitcoin before the announcement? And if so, is there any regulator who can look into this? Or no?

Edited: And what happens to the index funds that hold Tesla tomorrow?
No, at least publicly, Elon stated they are keeping remaining BTC but not transacting. Not sure what the game plan there is.
He tweeted a poll out last night asking if people wanted Tesla to accept Doge. 78% voted yes. Today he makes this announcement.
I answered your question about Tesla dumping its Bitcoin: they are saying they are maintaining their funds but not transacting with them.

My comment on game plan was more along the lines of: "Why would you tank the value of BTC, that you hold in reserves and stated you will keep, without adding on more?" What motive can regulators reasonably assign, and one that can be confirmed?

Doge dumped too, btw, so none of the top coins came out of this unscathed. Doge went down almost 20%, when eye-balling.
Seems pretty clear to me he is pumping up Doge.
He could even just buy BTC and pump it later after saying that he's now comfortable that BTC is sufficiently green and trending greener (since it actually is, even if it's currently pretty bad for the environment). He's definitely up to something because there is no chance he somehow just learned about BTC's climate impact.
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Re: Crypto mania !

Post by Random Musings »

Who's doing the majority of mining today? That may give some indication of it is "trending green".

RM
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Re: Crypto mania !

Post by nisiprius »

Kookaburra wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 6:57 pm
flyfishers83 wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 6:54 pmIn other news, Tesla won't accept Bitcoin on account of environmental concerns now. I'm sure that will dominate the news cycle for a bit. Sure to be a wild ride.
Did Musk just now learn about the energy consumption to mine BTC?? Hard to believe. Sounds like he’s just completing the “dump” part of that pump-and-dump scheme as he leads his Twitter followers to the next scam.
The only reason Tesla has stopped accepting bitcoin is because of environmental concerns. Sure.

The only reason Tesla sold $272 million worth of bitcoin was to demonstrate bitcoin's liquidity to the world... an act of altruism. Sure.

I would like to know exactly how many Teslas actually have been purchased with bitcoin. I'm thinking low single digits, if not zero, and that there isn't actually any system in place for handling bitcoin purchases, and it's a mad ad-hoc scramble every time someone actually tries to do it.

The story says "In the meantime, he said Tesla will look at other cryptocurrencies that use less energy to mine." So we have a test of sincerity. Will Tesla really begin accepting other cryptocurrencies? Or is that just a temporizing statement, made in hopes that everyone will just forget about it and never hold them to it?
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Re: Crypto mania !

Post by OohLaLa »

He is most probably up to something. The point is: does anybody actually know what, and can anybody do anything about it? I would answer "no" to both.

When he tweeted that Tesla had secured private funding at 420 per share, that was a gift-tweet with a bow on it. :oops:
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Re: Crypto mania !

Post by dt123 »

OohLaLa wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 9:25 pm He is most probably up to something. The point is: does anybody actually know what, and can anybody do anything about it? I would answer "no" to both.
Or else maybe he got another visit from the SEC?

And it seems he finally just now got around to reading about BTC, and discovered how wasteful it is?
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Re: Crypto mania !

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dt123 wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 9:54 pm
OohLaLa wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 9:25 pm He is most probably up to something. The point is: does anybody actually know what, and can anybody do anything about it? I would answer "no" to both.
Or else maybe he got another visit from the SEC?

And it seems he finally just now got around to reading about BTC, and discovered how wasteful it is?
Ha, yeah, who is doing due diligence over at Tesla? Embarrassing...

This is, of course, massively bullish for Ethereum. :moneybag :moneybag :moneybag
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Re: Crypto mania !

Post by livelovelaugh00 »

danbdzs wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 7:31 pm
After the extensive talk (i.e. Praha), the momentum, and probably some learning (as of recent), are you considering overweight in ETH?
I'm considering it myself.
+1. Early last month, I decided to educate myself about crypto. After spending a weekend googling and reading, I setup an account in coinbase pro and bought ETH and LINK. Then bought some more a week later. My retrospect is to keep an open mind and be curious.
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Re: Crypto mania !

Post by Prahasaurus »

livelovelaugh00 wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 11:14 pm
danbdzs wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 7:31 pm
After the extensive talk (i.e. Praha), the momentum, and probably some learning (as of recent), are you considering overweight in ETH?
I'm considering it myself.
+1. Early last month, I decided to educate myself about crypto. After spending a weekend googling and reading, I setup an account in coinbase pro and bought ETH and LINK. Then bought some more a week later. My retrospect is to keep an open mind and be curious.
Ethereum is the way. Stay open minded and curious. Good luck.
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Re: Crypto mania !

Post by decapod10 »

danbdzs wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 7:31 pm
watchnerd wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 7:25 pm
JonnyDVM wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 7:13 pm

Wrong. I think I got my Etherium buy in on the third go? Maybe?
I was expecting some Eth fire sale price, but it's still above $3800, which is above the price I purchased at.

BTC looks to be climbing back up from $47k.
After the extensive talk (i.e. Praha), the momentum, and probably some learning (as of recent), are you considering overweight in ETH?
I'm considering it myself.
I started in January with around 80% ETH, 10% DOT, 10% LINK, but eventually I just moved all my crypto to ETH. I have a very small portion of something called WAXE (not something I would necessarily recommend, lol). I'm planning on staking ETH to run my own node.
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Re: Crypto mania !

Post by watchnerd »

Prahasaurus wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 11:38 pm How many ETH detractors have actually used DeFi? Set up a MetaMask account? Interacted with at least one app like Aave or Uniswap? I would guess zero. Have you? Just answer me that, have you actually interacted with one application on Ethereum? Just one?
If that's your pitch to lure in skeptical retail investors, it's a fail.

Most retail investors aren't trying to become DeFi developers.

Most retail investors don't want to deal with MetaMask or other crypto wallet details.

DeFi needs to get the user experience as stupid simple as CeFi.

People want to throw their money into something and walk away.

I happen to like it, but I work in tech.

But everything you said fails 'the mom test'.
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Re: Crypto mania !

Post by HomerJ »

We called Bitcoin "Tulips", not Ethereum, and after you spent a year arguing we were fools about Bitcoin, you now agree with us (after enriching yourself by pumping it up first though).

I have posted that I find Ethereum intriguing, but until it has an app more useful and less circular than crypto trading, I'd reserve judgement.

But you (or least others), have moved me towards your position on THAT crypto-currency, and I find it interesting.

I do dispute your constant odious comparisons of DeFi where all the lending is going towards options, derivatives, and additional crypto trading to "bank accounts", but at least Ethereum is actually DOING something.

Unlike Bitcoin and Doge (and almost every other alt coin)... which really are just tulips.

Don't get me wrong. Tulips made some people very rich. I never said you can't get rich gambling. Many people do. MORE people lose money though.

Tulips are proof that human beings are crazy enough to bid ANYTHING to the moon. Including imaginary coins.
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Re: Crypto mania !

Post by watchnerd »

HomerJ wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 11:49 pm
I do dispute your constant odious comparisons of DeFi where all the lending is going towards options, derivatives, and additional crypto trading to "bank accounts", but at least Ethereum is actually DOING something.
I think Stellar does a decent job of explaining their value to normal people who are just interested in a cheaper, easier way to send money overseas.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cjl0Xwq ... rnInvestor

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MO9QAEu ... seCoinbase

https://www.stellar.org/

They also have a larger market cap (14.5B) than Aave (7.4B)

(Disclosure: I hold both Stellar and Aave in my 'index')
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Re: Crypto mania !

Post by Prahasaurus »

I'm not going to argue with the Tulips! brigade, or discuss how to "sell" crypto to American soccer moms (quite frankly, I don't really care).

I will note that, one of my absolute favorite crypto projects, one I've spoken about here often, Aave, just hit an all time high. Even with markets down. It seems many institutions are getting close to integrating Aave, as it was revealed yesterday that some are testing Aave now to eventually roll out to users. Exactly as I and many others predicted.

I remain incredibly bullish on crypto, especially Ethereum and quality Ethereum applications like Aave, long term. Not investment advice, do your own research, Aave is not FDIC protected, etc., etc. :beer
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Re: Crypto mania !

Post by ohboy! »

nisiprius wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 9:15 pm
Kookaburra wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 6:57 pm
flyfishers83 wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 6:54 pmIn other news, Tesla won't accept Bitcoin on account of environmental concerns now. I'm sure that will dominate the news cycle for a bit. Sure to be a wild ride.
Did Musk just now learn about the energy consumption to mine BTC?? Hard to believe. Sounds like he’s just completing the “dump” part of that pump-and-dump scheme as he leads his Twitter followers to the next scam.
The only reason Tesla has stopped accepting bitcoin is because of environmental concerns. Sure.

The only reason Tesla sold $272 million worth of bitcoin was to demonstrate bitcoin's liquidity to the world... an act of altruism. Sure.

I would like to know exactly how many Teslas actually have been purchased with bitcoin. I'm thinking low single digits, if not zero, and that there isn't actually any system in place for handling bitcoin purchases, and it's a mad ad-hoc scramble every time someone actually tries to do it.

The story says "In the meantime, he said Tesla will look at other cryptocurrencies that use less energy to mine." So we have a test of sincerity. Will Tesla really begin accepting other cryptocurrencies? Or is that just a temporizing statement, made in hopes that everyone will just forget about it and never hold them to it?
Musk is not stupid. Though his popularity may have peaked hours before his pathetic SNL performance. I don’t think he likes DOGE or BTC, he is an inventor. Surely he is scheming to sell his own solution. When or how, we don’t know yet. Tesla will surely accept crypto. But he didnt just realize Bitcoin is plagued by inability to change (blessing and curse) and the energy cost of proof of work. The guy literally tweeted right before todays FUD if Tesla should accept DOGE, which is just a fork (copy) of Bitcoin with a dog mascot and different issuance. And yes Tesla buys with BTC were likely insignificant. This is all show and dance. Scary how people react. You can see Ive posted several times over the past months about how BTC will be plagued by environmental FUD. Nothing has changed.

Like some of us have been saying, Ethereum is a totally different world. One that if Bogleheads experienced firsthand they would understand the difference.
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Re: Crypto mania !

Post by watchnerd »

ohboy! wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 12:16 am Like some of us have been saying, Ethereum is a totally different world. One that if Bogleheads experienced firsthand they would understand the difference.
What does "experience it first hand" mean in this context?

If you just hold BTC and ETH on an exchange, they're both just numbers bopping around like stocks.

You'll notice some differences between them in terms of which tokens you can directly convert to without converting to fiat first, sure.

But what else are they going to notice if just holding a portfolio?
Last edited by watchnerd on Thu May 13, 2021 12:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Crypto mania !

Post by Prahasaurus »

HomerJ wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 11:49 pm I have posted that I find Ethereum intriguing, but until it has an app more useful and less circular than crypto trading, I'd reserve judgement.

But you (or least others), have moved me towards your position on THAT crypto-currency, and I find it interesting.
I have become less bullish on Bitcoin, partially as a result of listening to some posters here. The rise of Dogecoin was a wake up call to how easy "meme coins" can rise and fall, something that I did not expect. Bitcoin has been trying to build utility into its protocol for years, and to date it's been a failure. Bitcoin is still just a shiny rock to buy and hold. Perhaps that's Ok in a world in which fiat is debased at an alarming rate. I do think there is a market niche for Bitcoin as digital gold, without a doubt. But we shall see.

Regardless, most of my money is on Ethereum. And even though I continue to hold a rather large Bitcoin position, I believe it's only a matter of time before ETH flips BTC in market cap. Which could be devastating to a meme coin that claims to be all about hard money.
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Prahasaurus
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Re: Crypto mania !

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watchnerd wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 12:25 am
ohboy! wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 12:16 am Like some of us have been saying, Ethereum is a totally different world. One that if Bogleheads experienced firsthand they would understand the difference.
What does "experience it first hand" mean in this context?

If you just hold BTC and ETH on an exchange, they're both just numbers bopping around like stocks.

You'll notice some differences between them in terms of which tokens you can directly convert to without converting to fiat first, sure.

But what else are they going to notice if just holding a portfolio?
Although not directed at me, this question seems nonsensical. I am saying ETH is money, but it's also much more. It has tremendous utility. But to measure that utility, you need to experience it firsthand, no? Or will you just take other's word for it?

It's like investing in Amazon, but never once purchasing any items off Amazon.com, or hosting on AWS. Can you buy and hold AMZN and yet never use their services? Of course! But when people discuss how easy it is to buy off Amazon, discuss their experience with returns, the efficacy of Amazon's recommendation engine, etc., wouldn't you want to experience that first hand before debating with others? Wouldn't that experience make you a more informed investor on Amazon's stock? Again, not a requirement, but still...

It just seems strange to me people would purchase ETH and yet not really be interested in experiencing first hand - the good, the bad, the ugly - what is happening on the Ethereum network! It's this experience that convinced me to purchase Uniswap, Synthetix, and Aave, for example. And to understand how hard it will be for other chains (so called "Eth killers") to displace Ethereum. Because, unlike Bitcoin, Ethereum has tremendous utility, which I have seen and experienced myself, first hand.
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Re: Crypto mania !

Post by Nathan Drake »

99.99999999999% of people buying Eth (or whatever) aren’t using it for anything other than to hopefully dump it off at a higher price to some poor old sucker

The fact that you need a PhD in Crypto and DeFi to understand its brilliance makes me less likely to believe it actually has real utility as an investment vehicle
Last edited by Nathan Drake on Thu May 13, 2021 10:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Crypto mania !

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F150HD wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 8:25 pm Never Mind: Elon Musk Says Tesla Won't Accept Bitcoin For Car Purchases Any More

Tesla is executing a rapid U-turn on Bitcoin.

Months after Tesla embraced Bitcoin, CEO Elon Musk said on Wednesday the auto maker would no longer accept the cryptocurrency for car purchases due to its environmental impact.
Sounds like he’s planning a size-able purchase :mrgreen:
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Re: Crypto mania !

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Nathan Drake wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 1:28 am 99.99999999999% of people buying Eth (or whatever) aren’t using it got anything other than to hopefully dump it off at a higher price to some poor old sucker

The fact that you need a PhD in Crypto and DeFi to understand its brilliance makes me less likely to believe it actually has real utility as an investment vehicle
Unlike stocks, where people buy hoping to sell to other people for a lower price :wink:
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Re: Crypto mania !

Post by OohLaLa »

===LONG POST WARNING===
TLDR: Grandpa is having a hard time transferring Dogecoin to grandson Timmy and gave away his wallet key to "tech support" over the phone. :mrgreen:

Opening disclaimer:
I'm not trying to argue for the sake of arguing; it's actually been a pet-peeve of mine with certain threads. I just try to take some distance and stay within the center. I've been "debating" points by different "pro-crypto" and "anti-crypto" members, if we can call them that.

It's a shame I feel the need to write a lame intro like that but I've noticed certain folks immediately get on the defensive and cast the other as an opponent of some sort the moment they question or debate something they presented. :annoyed
Prahasaurus wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 12:49 am Although not directed at me, this question seems nonsensical. I am saying ETH is money, but it's also much more. It has tremendous utility. But to measure that utility, you need to experience it firsthand, no? Or will you just take other's word for it?
I don't see anything nonsensical in that particular line of questioning. I don't always see eye-to-eye with HomerJ and Watchnerd, but they are pinpointing certain gaps with the current state of crypto.

You keep repeating that projects like ETH have tremendous utility and people like Homer and Watchnerd ask you what applications are actually useful to a wider swath of people, right now or even planned in the near-future. You are super knowledgeable about different aspects of the crypto space, no doubt about it, but I don't think you were able to really convey those supposed opportunities, beyond the world of investment and retail banking.

Some practical applications that have surfaced in the mainstream, or were presented here, and that I am aware of:
- NFTs, especially for the arts and entertainment. No doubts here, can definitely burgeon into something revolutionary.
- alternative currency (especially stablecoins), primarily useful in unstable political and economical areas (ex: Argentina with its financial crises every 10 years). Can definitely see the pragmatic use, while the said coins continue to elude control by authorities or other nefarious actors.
- opening up banking to certain underserved groups. Can see it in theory, but haven't seen any practical roadmaps on how to achieve this (Cardano was floated around as attempting this).
- certain particular retail banking uses, overall, like international transfers or gigantic, billion dollar transfers (I wish :moneybag). Even this depends on your current traditional options, whether you can access certain existing services or not, and so on.

I've seen some exciting ideas (user who mentioned the possibility of using blockchain for votes), but nothing serious in practice.

Apart from those, what's the real focus on right now? Investment and banking. I'll repeat again, so I don't get tomatoes thrown at me, in its state right now, even these two areas are extremely convoluted and inefficient, in comparison to traditional options available to most people around the world.

One can't even dangle the prospect of the destitute being helped by crypto, in a retail banking application, as there is no reasonable way to get them set up and trained in the tech right now. They will need a decent smartphone or computer with good data or internet coverage, at the least. They will need to get up to speed on how the hell to navigate this clusterf of a space. They will need to deal with the 10 fees during the whole workflow. I can see the potential, years and years down the road, though, so there's that.

Prahasaurus wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 12:49 am It's like investing in Amazon, but never once purchasing any items off Amazon.com, or hosting on AWS. Can you buy and hold AMZN and yet never use their services? Of course! But when people discuss how easy it is to buy off Amazon, discuss their experience with returns, the efficacy of Amazon's recommendation engine, etc., wouldn't you want to experience that first hand before debating with others? Wouldn't that experience make you a more informed investor on Amazon's stock? Again, not a requirement, but still...
Amazon made shopping, for almost anything you might want: easier/ more comfortable, quicker and cheaper (not always). Having started my journey into crypto investment already, I have to be honest. Right now, it's none of the things I mentioned about Amazon.

Even if someone has never used Amazon, if you would give them the explanation and details on the improvements, they could grasp the added value of it. This would have been true even if you had told them about the current state of Amazon (what they were working on), years ago. "I will be able to order a TV, Garfield books and a 12-pack of Doritos, while sitting in my soiled boxers and get it all delivered for free within a couple days? Where do I sign up!?"

Watchnerd and I brought up the current, major obstacle for mass adoption of what's being touted as revolutionary: the banking services. He and I both work in IT, apparently, and we are able to put ourselves in the shoes of people who aren't geeks like us. There is 0 chance of this gaining widespread adoption, in its current or soon-to-be state. Someone mentioned the complete chaos of implementing card chips on existing accounts. Now, multiply the complexity by a thousand. You really can't look at it from your personal experience, because you're not an average consumer. You are at minimum, from what I've read so far, a power-user with years of experience.

The things I see, from reading and actually using some of the platforms so far (actually adding onto that, as I go), that will be needed before you can actually pretend it's ready for primetime:
- Consolidation of service providers. There are way too many offers popping up and sowing added confusion for consumers. Everybody and their Turkish grandma seem to be opening up crypto exchanges, wallets, brokers/ storefronts etc.
- Some sort of at least embryonic framework of regulation, to protect retail users from said Turkish grandma running off with their funds or using extra shady practices.
- Some sort of insurance measures to protect more serious savings. Right now this would require extreme vigilance, and again knowledge, by users with regard to safety of their savings/ wallets. <---you've mentioned some measures by AAVE, already, with regard to certain risks.
- Increased competition by projects in order to capture market share, leading to driving fees down, which in many cases are exorbitant right now for any day-to-day use.

All in all, I am investing in crypto because I actually believe it's here to stay, even though I currently do not make use of the tech beyond investing (the point of a few on this forum). I feel like there are good returns possible in the short, mid and long-term. I think we are still very early in the lifecycle of the tech and practical applications themselves, though (and not the peak of some fad).
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Re: Crypto mania !

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Prahasaurus wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 11:38 pm How many ETH detractors have actually used DeFi? Set up a MetaMask account? Interacted with at least one app like Aave or Uniswap? I would guess zero. Have you? Just answer me that,
First, answer the questions I posed to you. It's easy to find them. Just search the post for question marks ('?'). That way, I'll be able to understand your meaning more clearly.

Then I'll address the questions you posed to me. I think that's fair.
HanSolo wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 10:59 pm An actual answer would be appreciated.
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Re: Crypto mania !

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OohLaLa wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 2:21 amEven if someone has never used Amazon, if you would give them the explanation and details on the improvements, they could grasp the added value of it. This would have been true even if you had told them about the current state of Amazon (what they were working on), years ago. "I will be able to order a TV, Garfield books and a 12-pack of Doritos, while sitting in my soiled boxers and get it all delivered for free within a couple days? Where do I sign up!?"
You can earn 8-10% on your dollar deposits at Aave, an Ethereum application, today. Aave is a decentralized application that cuts out the middle man, connects borrowers to lenders, and ensures users capture the vast majority of profits, unlike traditional banks. Rates are set by the algorithm based on supply and demand, and are variable. Loans are over-collateralized, and available instantly.

While Aave is not FDIC insured, it has been in operation for over 1 year with zero downtime and zero loss of funds through software bugs or hacks. There is currently over 18 billion dollars within the Aave protocol, and that sum is growing exponentially, proof of wider market acceptance.

To use Aave, you only need an internet connection, crypto assets to deposit (ideally stablecoins like USDC or DAI, but Aave supports many other crypto assets, as well), and a small amount of gas (ETH) for transactions (moving assets in and out of the protocol). You do not need to apply to join Aave, there is no KYC, nobody to ask permission when you move money in and out, you have complete freedom to manage your money as you choose. In a world where yields on dollar deposits are minimal at best, Aave is a unique and refreshing alternative.

As an aside, while there is no need to own the AAVE token to interact with the Aave protocol (just like you don't need AMZN stock to shop at Amazon.com), Aave has the potential to replace traditional banks, and I believe will prove an incredibly popular alternative for many. Aave's market cap is currently less than 4% of Wells Fargo, even though Aave's growth and addressable market are considerably higher.
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Re: Crypto mania !

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Prahasaurus wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 12:49 am

Although not directed at me, this question seems nonsensical. I am saying ETH is money, but it's also much more. It has tremendous utility. But to measure that utility, you need to experience it firsthand, no? Or will you just take other's word for it?
Neither.

If I'm a passive investor, I don't need an opinion, either my own or others.

If I buy at market weight, it's irrelevant.
Last edited by watchnerd on Thu May 13, 2021 3:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Crypto mania !

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What is Bitcoin "the future of" if a character like Elon Musk can cause a 10% value crash with a single tweet. So much time and energy has been wasted on crypto. More energy has been expended jaw boning about what Bitcoin can do, as opposed to actually transacting with Bitcoin.
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Re: Crypto mania !

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watchnerd wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 3:24 am
Prahasaurus wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 12:49 am

Although not directed at me, this question seems nonsensical. I am saying ETH is money, but it's also much more. It has tremendous utility. But to measure that utility, you need to experience it firsthand, no? Or will you just take other's word for it?
Neither.

If I'm a passive investor, I don't need an opinion, either my own or others.

If I buy at market weight, it's irrelevant.
So you bought your crypto at market weights? Your portfolio is therefore 40% BTC, 20% ETH, 6% Binance, 3% DOGE, etc., correct? And since there is so much volatility, you are rebalancing between DOGE and Litecoin regularly to keep those market weights and remain a passive investor?
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Re: Crypto mania !

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Prahasaurus wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 3:45 am
watchnerd wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 3:24 am
Prahasaurus wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 12:49 am

Although not directed at me, this question seems nonsensical. I am saying ETH is money, but it's also much more. It has tremendous utility. But to measure that utility, you need to experience it firsthand, no? Or will you just take other's word for it?
Neither.

If I'm a passive investor, I don't need an opinion, either my own or others.

If I buy at market weight, it's irrelevant.
So you bought your crypto at market weights? Your portfolio is therefore 40% BTC, 20% ETH, 6% Binance, 3% DOGE, etc., correct? And since there is so much volatility, you are rebalancing between DOGE and Litecoin regularly to keep those market weights and remain a passive investor?
Not quite, as I only bought those available at Coinbase.

So no Dogecoin.

I also excluded stable coins (no point).

For tax reasons, rebalancing the index, or adding new entrants (e.g. Internet Computer) will be a quarterly affair.

Top 3 are BTC, ETH, ADA, for 94.12% of the index.
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Re: Crypto mania !

Post by hilink73 »

JonnyDVM wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 8:06 pm
lazynovice wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 7:59 pm
JonnyDVM wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 7:21 pm You know. I have to admit- I’m a bit disappointed that not a single Boglehead pointed out that crypto was a risky, volatile investment. Where were you guys on this one ? :confused
I just stopped by this thread to see how you guys were doing...I really miss the GME thread. How’s it going over here?
Great if you like servers of companies you’re also invested in getting jammed up preventing you from buying a crypto flash crash.

Sometime it almost feels like it would be easier to just keep a three fund portfolio.
You know that you have could put in buy orders beforehand, right?
Just joking: buy high, sell low. That's the way!
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Re: Crypto mania !

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Forester wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 3:24 am What is Bitcoin "the future of" if a character like Elon Musk can cause a 10% value crash with a single tweet.
It's harder to buy into the "store of value" or "digital gold" talking points when things like that happen to Bitcoin..
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Re: Crypto mania !

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watchnerd wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 3:50 am
Prahasaurus wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 3:45 am
watchnerd wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 3:24 am
Prahasaurus wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 12:49 am

Although not directed at me, this question seems nonsensical. I am saying ETH is money, but it's also much more. It has tremendous utility. But to measure that utility, you need to experience it firsthand, no? Or will you just take other's word for it?
Neither.

If I'm a passive investor, I don't need an opinion, either my own or others.

If I buy at market weight, it's irrelevant.
So you bought your crypto at market weights? Your portfolio is therefore 40% BTC, 20% ETH, 6% Binance, 3% DOGE, etc., correct? And since there is so much volatility, you are rebalancing between DOGE and Litecoin regularly to keep those market weights and remain a passive investor?
Not quite, as I only bought those available at Coinbase.

So no Dogecoin.

I also excluded stable coins (no point).

For tax reasons, rebalancing the index, or adding new entrants (e.g. Internet Computer) will be a quarterly affair.

Top 3 are BTC, ETH, ADA, for 94.12% of the index.
So you are not a passive investor. Fine, I don't recommend passive investing in crypto. But probably doesn't make sense to claim you buy at market weight, and hence don't need to actually do a bit of research of how you tilt.
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Re: Crypto mania !

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Prahasaurus wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 4:33 am So you are not a passive investor. Fine, I don't recommend passive investing in crypto. But probably doesn't make sense to claim you buy at market weight, and hence don't need to actually do a bit of research of how you tilt.
So is your critique that passive investing doesn't work in the crypto space because it's too immature?

Or that my passive index isn't good enough because I can't buy all the assets unless I get multiple accounts at multiple exchanges?
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