Got my first paycheck with $0 net pay
- Alto Astral
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Got my first paycheck with $0 net pay
This is how my paycheck is split:
50% after-tax (mega backdoor roth)
10% ESPP
10% pre-tax-401k
3% medical/dental/vision/hsa etc
27% tax
I wanted to frontload my mega backdoor roth. So I set it at 50% deduction from my paycheck. Little did I know that this will drop my paycheck to $0. I will do this for my next 6 paychecks and then stop. This helps me max out the $61k limit. I thought this was interesting and wanted to post on my most fav forum
50% after-tax (mega backdoor roth)
10% ESPP
10% pre-tax-401k
3% medical/dental/vision/hsa etc
27% tax
I wanted to frontload my mega backdoor roth. So I set it at 50% deduction from my paycheck. Little did I know that this will drop my paycheck to $0. I will do this for my next 6 paychecks and then stop. This helps me max out the $61k limit. I thought this was interesting and wanted to post on my most fav forum
- unclescrooge
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Re: Got my first paycheck with $0 net pay
I had several years where my paycheck was a few hundred dollars a month due to similar reasons.
- anon_investor
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Re: Got my first paycheck with $0 net pay
How do you manage living expenses? Save up late in the prior year?Alto Astral wrote: ↑Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:28 am This is how my paycheck is split:
50% after-tax (mega backdoor roth)
10% ESPP
10% pre-tax-401k
3% medical/dental/vision/hsa etc
27% tax
I wanted to frontload my mega backdoor roth. So I set it at 50% deduction from my paycheck. Little did I know that this will drop my paycheck to $0. I will do this for my next 6 paychecks and then stop. This helps me max out the $61k limit. I thought this was interesting and wanted to post on my most fav forum
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Re: Got my first paycheck with $0 net pay
How did you get it to come in at exactly $0? One penny to the negative and it will throw a payroll error.
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Re: Got my first paycheck with $0 net pay
You just stated your salary, not sure if you realized this.
Re: Got my first paycheck with $0 net pay
One word of warning--if you get an employer match make sure maxing out your employee contribution early doesn't cut off the employer match (this is a plan specific thing so you would need to check). I never front loaded as much as you but for a year or two thought I was a hero in maxing out early only to learn that the last several months of the year I didn't get the automatic employer contribution since the company only kicked in while I was contributing (and took me a couple of years of doing so to realize it).
Re: Got my first paycheck with $0 net pay
I applaud your mega saving habit. And am jealous of your mega bank door capability.
$1 saved = >$1 earned. ✓
- Cheez-It Guy
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Re: Got my first paycheck with $0 net pay
I just did something similar with a bonus payment and got mine down to $99.68.
Re: Got my first paycheck with $0 net pay
My experience is that someone from payroll calls you up to make sure you want a $0 paycheck and adjusts whatever is needed to get to exactly $0. It is rather easy, so you should try it yourself.Sprucebark wrote: ↑Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:20 am How did you get it to come in at exactly $0? One penny to the negative and it will throw a payroll error.
Re: Got my first paycheck with $0 net pay
Some generous employers will "true up" to the max the following year. Of course, there is an opportunity cost in that potentially year long window waiting for the true up.mbt863 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:43 am One word of warning--if you get an employer match make sure maxing out your employee contribution early doesn't cut off the employer match (this is a plan specific thing so you would need to check). I never front loaded as much as you but for a year or two thought I was a hero in maxing out early only to learn that the last several months of the year I didn't get the automatic employer contribution since the company only kicked in while I was contributing (and took me a couple of years of doing so to realize it).
My employer gave me a true up even after I left. Nice.
Re: Got my first paycheck with $0 net pay
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Last edited by EddyB on Sat Jan 22, 2022 7:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Got my first paycheck with $0 net pay
I thought about filling up my MegaBackdoor before my 401(k) too, but opted against it. So I'm frontloading my 401(k) right now, and my first paycheck was a few 100's $. When I start the MegaBackdoor in April, it'll be less than $100 for a few months.
Beyond frontloading, I like that this keeps me on my toes because I still have to pay rent and eat during that time. Keeps me away from frivolous spending
Beyond frontloading, I like that this keeps me on my toes because I still have to pay rent and eat during that time. Keeps me away from frivolous spending
Re: Got my first paycheck with $0 net pay
Similar....
After the final paycheck of the year, I do several things.
1. Adjust my W4 withholdings.
2. Make sure my 401K is max (70% at my current company)
By March, my 401K is maxed out for the year. I also contribute to our HSA (spread throughout the year) and ESPP.
Anyway, I double check everything with an online calculator and it comes out pretty close. Current paycheck is net $123 until 401K is maxed out in March. Then everything resumes as before. Plenty in the checking account to tide us over till March. Then W4 withholdings are re-adjusted based on estimated dividends/capital gains in the taxable account and total payroll income for the year. Revisited once a quarter and adjusted as necessary.
I've been doing front loading for years because my industry historically has its layoffs in the second half of any given year and I want to layoff-proof my 401K.
Cheers.
After the final paycheck of the year, I do several things.
1. Adjust my W4 withholdings.
2. Make sure my 401K is max (70% at my current company)
By March, my 401K is maxed out for the year. I also contribute to our HSA (spread throughout the year) and ESPP.
Anyway, I double check everything with an online calculator and it comes out pretty close. Current paycheck is net $123 until 401K is maxed out in March. Then everything resumes as before. Plenty in the checking account to tide us over till March. Then W4 withholdings are re-adjusted based on estimated dividends/capital gains in the taxable account and total payroll income for the year. Revisited once a quarter and adjusted as necessary.
I've been doing front loading for years because my industry historically has its layoffs in the second half of any given year and I want to layoff-proof my 401K.
Cheers.
Re: Got my first paycheck with $0 net pay
Wish I could do this, but my employer limits my total 401k contribution (pre-tax, Roth, and after-tax) to being no more than 30% of my base pay.Alto Astral wrote: ↑Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:28 am I wanted to frontload my mega backdoor roth. So I set it at 50% deduction from my paycheck.
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Re: Got my first paycheck with $0 net pay
I have had a similar experience with this as well. Have posted several times on this. This year I entertained the thought to rapidly fill the 401k to include the after-tax spillover with Roth conversion to beat the possible legislation changes, but it would crowd out the match. I don’t know if there is a true-up, but I also don’t want to create a FUBAR situation and wait to unwind it.mbt863 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:43 am One word of warning--if you get an employer match make sure maxing out your employee contribution early doesn't cut off the employer match (this is a plan specific thing so you would need to check). I never front loaded as much as you but for a year or two thought I was a hero in maxing out early only to learn that the last several months of the year I didn't get the automatic employer contribution since the company only kicked in while I was contributing (and took me a couple of years of doing so to realize it).
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Re: Got my first paycheck with $0 net pay
Not exactly, as matching contributions would throw it off a bit, and we don’t know if it’s weekly, biweekly or monthly.ccompounder wrote: ↑Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:33 am You just stated your salary, not sure if you realized this.
But yeah, pretty easy to guess that it’s biweekly and he makes 400k+. As to realizing, of course they do- this forum is full of people that like to humblebrag… but can’t do it IRL because of social conventions.
At the OPs salary level they probably have large taxable accounts built up they can coast on.anon_investor wrote: ↑Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:12 am How do you manage living expenses? Save up late in the prior year?
Re: Got my first paycheck with $0 net pay
Why should anyone care about potentially disclosing their salary on this board when it is encouraged in practically every thread on here when asking for advice?jharkin wrote: ↑Sat Jan 22, 2022 8:14 amNot exactly, as matching contributions would throw it off a bit, and we don’t know if it’s weekly, biweekly or monthly.ccompounder wrote: ↑Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:33 am You just stated your salary, not sure if you realized this.
But yeah, pretty easy to guess that it’s biweekly and he makes 400k+. As to realizing, of course they do- this forum is full of people that like to humblebrag… but can’t do it IRL because of social conventions.
Re: Got my first paycheck with $0 net pay
That’s fine, but keep in mind this isn’t an advice thread, there is no actionable question and as such LadyGeek will probably lock it as soon as she logs on for the day.m0derton wrote: ↑Sat Jan 22, 2022 8:42 amWhy should anyone care about potentially disclosing their salary on this board when it is encouraged in practically every thread on here when asking for advice?jharkin wrote: ↑Sat Jan 22, 2022 8:14 amNot exactly, as matching contributions would throw it off a bit, and we don’t know if it’s weekly, biweekly or monthly.ccompounder wrote: ↑Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:33 am You just stated your salary, not sure if you realized this.
But yeah, pretty easy to guess that it’s biweekly and he makes 400k+. As to realizing, of course they do- this forum is full of people that like to humblebrag… but can’t do it IRL because of social conventions.
So like I said, just havin’ some fun showing off…..
Re: Got my first paycheck with $0 net pay
I also did this for a year or two. Doublembt863 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:43 am One word of warning--if you get an employer match make sure maxing out your employee contribution early doesn't cut off the employer match (this is a plan specific thing so you would need to check). I never front loaded as much as you but for a year or two thought I was a hero in maxing out early only to learn that the last several months of the year I didn't get the automatic employer contribution since the company only kicked in while I was contributing (and took me a couple of years of doing so to realize it).
- anon_investor
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Re: Got my first paycheck with $0 net pay
Yeah, but presumably people don't want to sell investments to live off of if they don't have to during the accumulation phase.jharkin wrote: ↑Sat Jan 22, 2022 8:14 amAt the OPs salary level they probably have large taxable accounts built up they can coast on.anon_investor wrote: ↑Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:12 am How do you manage living expenses? Save up late in the prior year?
Re: Got my first paycheck with $0 net pay
I do this too! I call it (jokingly) “depression era enforcement”. Every month I auto-invest enough that my cash flow is about $1500 less than my fixed expenses which forces me to hustle for expert consulting calls in order to pay bills. It works!
Re: Got my first paycheck with $0 net pay
livesoft wrote: ↑Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:05 amMy experience is that someone from payroll calls you up to make sure you want a $0 paycheck and adjusts whatever is needed to get to exactly $0. It is rather easy, so you should try it yourself.Sprucebark wrote: ↑Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:20 am How did you get it to come in at exactly $0? One penny to the negative and it will throw a payroll error.
Sprucebark - Payroll systems are designed to handle deductions, by type (Pre-tax, After tax, Wage Assignments, etc ) , by assigned priority within the type, and then whether to allow arrears if insufficient net pay. There are also rules on how much of the arrears balance to take on the next scheduled payroll. In addition, most systems allow specific deductions only on regular pay vs. special or one time pay cycles.
Live soft - your experience is most likely based on a smaller organization. If your payroll department is issuing pay for 100k employees, covering multiple time zones and various shifts, they would not be able to contact you. I would expect that they are running exception reports and reviewing for variances. Gross pay with zero net pay is a common exception report.
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Re: Got my first paycheck with $0 net pay
Another reason early Maxing MBD is a good idea:
if you happen to change employers this year you can do it again at the new place and "double up" on the post tax deductions. getting the MBD out of the way means you aren't trying to scramble to take advantage of that last paycheck before you head for greener pastures.
(I was fortunate to be able to take advantage of this a few years ago)
OTOH I was unfortunate last year to leave my MBD-max running a paycheck or two too long and missed out on 3-4k of traditional 401k space..
if you happen to change employers this year you can do it again at the new place and "double up" on the post tax deductions. getting the MBD out of the way means you aren't trying to scramble to take advantage of that last paycheck before you head for greener pastures.
(I was fortunate to be able to take advantage of this a few years ago)
OTOH I was unfortunate last year to leave my MBD-max running a paycheck or two too long and missed out on 3-4k of traditional 401k space..
Re: Got my first paycheck with $0 net pay
One reason that I started doing this last year was to put as much money in it as I could before "reorg season", which in my company is often - but not always, of course - late spring / early summer. If I get laid off mid-year and find a new job without access to MBR, at least I'd have done it for one last year. I expect to have it maxed out by end of July (after maxing out my 401(k) with full match by end of March).privateer79 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 22, 2022 10:21 am if you happen to change employers this year you can do it again at the new place and "double up" on the post tax deductions. getting the MBD out of the way means you aren't trying to scramble to take advantage of that last paycheck before you head for greener pastures.
(I was fortunate to be able to take advantage of this a few years ago)
That was before I learned that the "all up" max is per employer. Which makes frontloading an even better idea if you can swing it!
Last edited by pasadena on Sat Jan 22, 2022 10:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Got my first paycheck with $0 net pay
Congrats, that's awesome you can afford to do that. I love the strategy. Your retirement will thank you for it.
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Re: Got my first paycheck with $0 net pay
maybe/ maybe not... if you don't have massive capital gains in taxable, you can view this as simply "transforming" existing accumulated assets from taxable accounts to Roth accounts.... would you rather have a dollar in taxable or a dollar in roth?anon_investor wrote: ↑Sat Jan 22, 2022 9:11 amYeah, but presumably people don't want to sell investments to live off of if they don't have to during the accumulation phase.jharkin wrote: ↑Sat Jan 22, 2022 8:14 amAt the OPs salary level they probably have large taxable accounts built up they can coast on.anon_investor wrote: ↑Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:12 am How do you manage living expenses? Save up late in the prior year?
I think that this is especially likely given that MBD has just popped up in the last ~5 years or so.... so there are a lot of middle aged/ upper-middle class earners with a sizeable taxable accounts looking for shelter.
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Re: Got my first paycheck with $0 net pay
Whenever I start contributing a large portion of my paycheck to a retirement account payroll always calls me because they think it was a mistake. I think my 2-week paychecks were like $126 because it wouldn't let me contribute 100%. When I tell co-workers how small my paycheck was they laugh and think I'm joking. So yeah I don't think it's as uncommon as you think, but $0... That calls for bragging rights lol.
Re: Got my first paycheck with $0 net pay
Congrats! It is great that your plan allowed you to do this. I am limited to 50% of my gross pay.
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Re: Got my first paycheck with $0 net pay
Congrats!
I front load, too, and my record check was 8% of gross, never could quite pull off 0%.
I front load, too, and my record check was 8% of gross, never could quite pull off 0%.
Re: Got my first paycheck with $0 net pay
I handled payroll at my last two companies (owner or part-owner) and I was able to tweak my 401k to get my paycheck down to under $5 a few times, but I could never quite get it to $0. When my last company was sold to mega-corp, the payroll department was a little mystified when I selected “100%” for my 401k withholding, but I maxed it out after a few paychecks. One nice thing mega-corp did that I hadn’t seen before; in addition to the usual 401k matching, once you went over the ~$140,000 social security limit, they contributed their portion of what they would be matching in social security above that limit to the 401k, until I reached the $65,000 limit. That was a nice bump.
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Re: Got my first paycheck with $0 net pay
I've had zero net pay for several months the last 3 years.Alto Astral wrote: ↑Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:28 am This is how my paycheck is split:
50% after-tax (mega backdoor roth)
10% ESPP
10% pre-tax-401k
3% medical/dental/vision/hsa etc
27% tax
I wanted to frontload my mega backdoor roth. So I set it at 50% deduction from my paycheck. Little did I know that this will drop my paycheck to $0. I will do this for my next 6 paychecks and then stop. This helps me max out the $61k limit. I thought this was interesting and wanted to post on my most fav forum
I just got access to a Roth 457b in addition to my 403b.
Maxing the 403b brings my taxable income down to the top of the 12% bracket, so I load up the 457b with Roth.
My income is not so high that I need a backdoor Roth.
The accounting office called me the first time to ensure that I really meant to get zero net pay, to which I of course said yes
- Alto Astral
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Re: Got my first paycheck with $0 net pay
Spouse works too. And yes, I have money saved up for the first 3 months while I do this.anon_investor wrote: ↑Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:12 am How do you manage living expenses? Save up late in the prior year?
- Alto Astral
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Re: Got my first paycheck with $0 net pay
I was surprised payroll did not call. I believe they have an order how they make the deductions. My guess is 10% pretax first, then 10% ESPP next and lastly mega backdoor. My mega-backdoor deduction was around 49.5% or something vs the 50% that I specified. That would avoid the negative.livesoft wrote: ↑Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:05 amMy experience is that someone from payroll calls you up to make sure you want a $0 paycheck and adjusts whatever is needed to get to exactly $0. It is rather easy, so you should try it yourself.Sprucebark wrote: ↑Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:20 am How did you get it to come in at exactly $0? One penny to the negative and it will throw a payroll error.
- Alto Astral
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Re: Got my first paycheck with $0 net pay
Ha ha, yes. It's pretty easy to calculate fairly accurately.ccompounder wrote: ↑Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:33 am You just stated your salary, not sure if you realized this.
- Alto Astral
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Re: Got my first paycheck with $0 net pay
Yes, my employer offers a true up on the employer match. So my plan is to front load the mega backdoor in the first 3 months. Then front load the pre-tax 401k for the next 3 months.Tubes wrote: ↑Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:39 amSome generous employers will "true up" to the max the following year. Of course, there is an opportunity cost in that potentially year long window waiting for the true up.mbt863 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:43 am One word of warning--if you get an employer match make sure maxing out your employee contribution early doesn't cut off the employer match (this is a plan specific thing so you would need to check). I never front loaded as much as you but for a year or two thought I was a hero in maxing out early only to learn that the last several months of the year I didn't get the automatic employer contribution since the company only kicked in while I was contributing (and took me a couple of years of doing so to realize it).
My employer gave me a true up even after I left. Nice.
Re: Got my first paycheck with $0 net pay
One key element is the ability to maximize contributions are the provisions of an employer plan, like a 401k. Some employers have 401K plans that allow up to a 100% contribution (after mandatory taxes like SSA, Medicare, etc), many have caps of 50%, and some have lower maximum rates. If you're categorized as an highly compensated employee (HCE) you likely have a lower contribution percentage cap. Even an HCE limit won't limit you if your earnings are high enough.
It's great to maximize retirement plan contributions early in the year. That way you can be ahead of the game in case your organization or job/position takes an unfortunate turn.
It's great to maximize retirement plan contributions early in the year. That way you can be ahead of the game in case your organization or job/position takes an unfortunate turn.
The closest helping hand is at the end of your own arm.
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Re: Got my first paycheck with $0 net pay
You don’t need to calculate the exact percentage or dollar amount. There is an order of operations for how the deductions occur. After-tax contributions are likely last, so you set it as high as you want and the deduction takes whatever is left in your paycheck down to $0.Sprucebark wrote: ↑Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:20 am How did you get it to come in at exactly $0? One penny to the negative and it will throw a payroll error.
Re: Got my first paycheck with $0 net pay
Is there any place to find which companies offer mega backdoor roth?
Re: Got my first paycheck with $0 net pay
Yes I would have zero take home pay for several months while loading money into the ROTH.
Ah, those were the days.
Ah, those were the days.
Re: Got my first paycheck with $0 net pay
Yes I would have zero take home pay for several months while loading money into the ROTH.
Ah, those were the days.
Ah, those were the days.
- Alto Astral
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Re: Got my first paycheck with $0 net pay
Yes, I realized this when someone asked if the post-tax contribution towards the $61k was per employer.pasadena wrote: ↑Sat Jan 22, 2022 10:40 amOne reason that I started doing this last year was to put as much money in it as I could before "reorg season", which in my company is often - but not always, of course - late spring / early summer. If I get laid off mid-year and find a new job without access to MBR, at least I'd have done it for one last year. I expect to have it maxed out by end of July (after maxing out my 401(k) with full match by end of March).privateer79 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 22, 2022 10:21 am if you happen to change employers this year you can do it again at the new place and "double up" on the post tax deductions. getting the MBD out of the way means you aren't trying to scramble to take advantage of that last paycheck before you head for greener pastures.
(I was fortunate to be able to take advantage of this a few years ago)
That was before I learned that the "all up" max is per employer. Which makes frontloading an even better idea if you can swing it!
Yes, I need to be extra careful and dial it down after 3 months. Otherwise, not only would I miss the employer match but also my tax deferred space.privateer79 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 22, 2022 10:21 am OTOH I was unfortunate last year to leave my MBD-max running a paycheck or two too long and missed out on 3-4k of traditional 401k space..
Re: Got my first paycheck with $0 net pay
That's diggin' deep!
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- Alto Astral
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Re: Got my first paycheck with $0 net pay
Cheez-It Guy wrote: ↑Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:05 am I just did something similar with a bonus payment and got mine down to $99.68.
tvubpwcisla wrote: ↑Sat Jan 22, 2022 10:45 am Congrats, that's awesome you can afford to do that. I love the strategy. Your retirement will thank you for it.
DVMResident wrote: ↑Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:32 pm Congrats!
I front load, too, and my record check was 8% of gross, never could quite pull off 0%.
Thanks for your kind words. I wasn't sure how many people did this but looks like a lot of kindred spirit on this forum. In hindsight, it is a very boglehead thing to do, if/when one is able to.
This is the first time I've had access to a mega backdoor. I did not realize I could pull off a $0 paycheck. I assumed it would be some small amount on the paycheck.
- Alto Astral
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Re: Got my first paycheck with $0 net pay
Re: Got my first paycheck with $0 net pay
My husband front loads the funding of his 401k every year, which means he's filled it up by March I believe, and gotten all the matching company benefits.
He does this in case he goes into disability sometime later in the year. This way he's gotten all the employer match. Over the many years he's done this there have been two years where he's had to take short-term disability. Once for a hernia surgery and once for a hip fracture.
So thank goodness he does this! He did not leave any money on the table despite those two absences from work, each of several months duration.
He does this in case he goes into disability sometime later in the year. This way he's gotten all the employer match. Over the many years he's done this there have been two years where he's had to take short-term disability. Once for a hernia surgery and once for a hip fracture.
So thank goodness he does this! He did not leave any money on the table despite those two absences from work, each of several months duration.
Re: Got my first paycheck with $0 net pay
I'm doing something similar this year and got down to about $500, but I hesitate to go any lower because I don't know how payroll errors would be handled or if things would get prioritized in such a way that I would lose company HSA contributions. I'm also in the process of gradually increasing my bond allocation, so I kind of need the cash, although part of me is tempted to put the extra into stocks in the Roth 401k given the recent drop.
- Alto Astral
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Re: Got my first paycheck with $0 net pay
Actually, I debated this as well. Whether to front load the pre-tax 401k first or the mega backdoor in Q1. One reason I picked mega backdoor first was a hope that any past conversions would be grandfathered in, were there a legislation change. Otherwise, I could not decide which to front load for Q1 vs Q2. My paychecks in Q3 and Q4 won't have any of these deductions as I am thinking I would've maxed out the $61K by then. So the plan is for Q3+Q4 paychecks to go towards taxable and paying bills.
Last edited by Alto Astral on Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Got my first paycheck with $0 net pay
OP,
I choose to front load the pre-tax 401K first. In the case that I am laid off in 2022 and join some other employer, they may not have the mega backdoor Roth. But, I still could contribute to pre-tax 401K at the new employer and getting the match.
KlangFool
I choose to front load the pre-tax 401K first. In the case that I am laid off in 2022 and join some other employer, they may not have the mega backdoor Roth. But, I still could contribute to pre-tax 401K at the new employer and getting the match.
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Re: Got my first paycheck with $0 net pay
I have zero net pay since mid-2017 for the same reason. I have 3 plans: 401a, 403b, 457b.
At the beginning the HR emailed me twice to make sure if it was what I wanted, and they stopped doing it later.
At the beginning the HR emailed me twice to make sure if it was what I wanted, and they stopped doing it later.
Re: Got my first paycheck with $0 net pay
I did the same,
Max allowed by plan, from bonus check went to t 401k, from pay check went to MBD 401k
Our employer does a true match up in the beginning of following year.
Once 401k and MBD 401k are filled up then savings are diverted to taxable.
we keep buffer in chkg acct for monthly needs.
Max allowed by plan, from bonus check went to t 401k, from pay check went to MBD 401k
Our employer does a true match up in the beginning of following year.
Once 401k and MBD 401k are filled up then savings are diverted to taxable.
we keep buffer in chkg acct for monthly needs.