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Re: Early retirement plan advice (39yo, $880k, ~3.5% withdraw)

Post by Vanguard User »

Where do you plan to retire?
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Re: Early retirement plan advice (39yo, $880k, ~3.5% withdraw)

Post by calwatch »

supalong52 wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 12:30 am I tried to early retire when I was 36 on about $2 million. We traveled and pursued hobbies, but still ended up back at work (albeit part time) a few years later. Why? Because I was so accustomed to living with an abundance mindset (e.g., when you make $100 but only have to spend $5, you feel like you have a ton of money) and switching to a scarcity mindset (e.g., now you watch your nest egg drop like sand going through an hourglass) was too jarring.
That's a good point. Look at this past week. Or go back to the start of the pandemic where many of us lost six figures in our accounts within the span of two weeks. Even if you kept $100,000 in safe money (I Bonds, CDs, short/intermediate bond funds, online savings accounts), that is still very jarring. When you're working, you may redouble your efforts to not get laid off, but you are not going to have sleepless nights. Examine your feelings during this time of market volatility and decide if you could stomach it if it lasted for months on end.
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Re: Early retirement plan advice (39yo, $880k, ~3.5% withdraw)

Post by brian91480 »

chipperd wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:36 am
brian91480 wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:23 pm
On the revenue side: Based on information I've gotten from a very, very, very smart BH'er.... a 3.5% SWR, and the correct AA... a person would never run out of money at any point in the past 125+ years with a 40 year retirement. Maybe 50. Maybe even longer. (The AA's mentioned on this thread do not match precisely the AA I'm referring to).



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Re: Early retirement plan advice (39yo, $880k, ~3.5% withdraw)

Post by EnjoyIt »

aaaaaa111111 wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:33 am
calwatch wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:00 am.
I do hope, though, that the plan for early retirement involves more than staring at screens. This analysis of 25-54 year old men not in the labor force (not working or actively looking for work) is pretty depressing: https://ifstudies.org/blog/what-do-prim ... sic-income
As much as I appreciate the views expressed in this thread and am taking a "listen rather than talk" approach, I do want to jump in here and say that the opinions of a deeply conservative think tank, especially one like the IFS, don't really work for me personally.

I do accept the lifestyle-focused posts in this thread as well meaning thoughts from posters who are offering what may be sound advice for people who are seeking a more traditional life path. If I thought there were even the slightest chance that I may one day want to, for example,, start a family, I would consider myself nowhere remotely close to my goal.

But when my expected life in retirement is mostly the same as when I was working (just without the bad part, the working) the posts I'm finding most actionable are the ones on whether the math can actually work, what kind of economy could derail it, and how to best mitigate those risks.

For example in response to this thread I've finally upped my bond allocation (in the middle of the market drop... but at least not at the bottom I suppose) and spent a lot of time looking more seriously at lowering my rent (found a nice place that would knock off $250 a month, provided they still have a unit when my current lease is up). I've also identified a few more small but unnecessary expenses I could lower. And most importantly, between here and other research I've done, I feel like I understand a lot more about how investing and taxes work than I did, which has been unexpectedly enjoyable.

Of course, as I watch the S&P gleefully jump off a cliff, almost as if in direct response to my post, the pure math may be answering everything for me, hah.

There's still 11 months left in the year before I decide whether to pull the trigger or not, and even if I do it's not an irreversible decision (so maybe that's a bad metaphor) by any means. But if today goes as badly as it's started (down another 2% as I type this) I'll have gone from a 3.4% srw to a 3.8% srw in a month. Not that I truly need $30k a year - frankly it looks like I could get this year closer to 27k than 30k even if I don't switch apartments. But I still want buffer room.

As for the points about getting back into the workforce at an advanced age, I absolutely agree! Any job I'd find at 60 would be even worse than whatever I'd find next year. There is a certain amount of risk I'm absolutely willing to take for the monumental reward I'd realize if it all works out, but that is definitely one of the biggest concerns.

I will say that I've been scanning job listings again just to see what's out there if the market doesn't turn around. It's depressing work. Try finding the needle of a legit remote data entry job in the haystack of "fill out surveys for cash!!" scams, for example. I've been successful at the jobs I've done (too successful in some ways, that's how I moved into management roles I utterly loathed) but my skills are very nebulous to describe and even harder to identify in a job listing. It feels like I turned out to be good at things that I hate.

But I'll keep at it. And I'll continue to find ways to lower expenses, keep an eye on how the portfolio goes, and plan for delaying retirement if it comes to that. And once again thanks for all of the discussion in this thread, I didn't really anticipate it getting beyond a few posts!
May I ask, have you considered the need for paying for assistance as you age? I look at some family members who now need to hire someone to just change a lightbulb. You may not have lifestyle creep from hedonistic adaptation, but you may need to spend more as you age.

My other question, have you considered some part time work? Maybe even something that earns you $10k/yr would be nice for a few years. I ask because my spouse and I have done just that and find it better than being completely retired. It allows us some added social interaction, it forces us into a bit more of a schedule, and I find myself more productive outside of work by actually having some place I need to be a couple of days a week. Plus, the extra money is nice which allows our portfolio to continue growing. Maybe its not for you, but I thought I would ask.
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Re: Early retirement plan advice (39yo, $880k, ~3.5% withdraw)

Post by mikejuss »

Do you really want to live on $31,000 a year for 50 years, OP? That sounds pretty grim to me.
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Re: Early retirement plan advice (39yo, $880k, ~3.5% withdraw)

Post by savvyplanner »

Not sure if anyone's already mentioned but technically you can access your retirement funds before 59 1/2 with substantially equal periodic payments or 72(t) setup. That can give you more flexibility on your distributions.
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Re: Early retirement plan advice (39yo, $880k, ~3.5% withdraw)

Post by chipperd »

brian91480 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:11 am
chipperd wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:36 am
brian91480 wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:23 pm
On the revenue side: Based on information I've gotten from a very, very, very smart BH'er.... a 3.5% SWR, and the correct AA... a person would never run out of money at any point in the past 125+ years with a 40 year retirement. Maybe 50. Maybe even longer. (The AA's mentioned on this thread do not match precisely the AA I'm referring to).



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Re: Early retirement plan advice (39yo, $880k, ~3.5% withdraw)

Post by willthrill81 »

mikejuss wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:03 am Do you really want to live on $31,000 a year for 50 years, OP? That sounds pretty grim to me.
It depends greatly on one's lifestyle and the cost of living in a given area. There's an early retired family of 5 with a paid-off home who's documented all their spending for almost a decade now, and they never spend more than $40k, including significant traveling.
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Re: Early retirement plan advice (39yo, $880k, ~3.5% withdraw)

Post by mikejuss »

willthrill81 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:00 pm
mikejuss wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:03 am Do you really want to live on $31,000 a year for 50 years, OP? That sounds pretty grim to me.
It depends greatly on one's lifestyle and the cost of living in a given area. There's an early retired family of 5 with a paid-off home who's documented all their spending for almost a decade now, and they never spend more than $40k, including significant traveling.
Yes, but that family probably lives in Bolivia, not the US.
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Re: Early retirement plan advice (39yo, $880k, ~3.5% withdraw)

Post by Ineed$ »

I feel my leg being pulled.
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Re: Early retirement plan advice (39yo, $880k, ~3.5% withdraw)

Post by sailaway »

Ineed$ wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:27 pm I feel my leg being pulled.
?

Because they can live on the median income? Why is this so shocking?
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Re: Early retirement plan advice (39yo, $880k, ~3.5% withdraw)

Post by mikejuss »

sailaway wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:29 pm
Ineed$ wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:27 pm I feel my leg being pulled.
?

Because they can live on the median income? Why is this so shocking?
The median household in the US is not a family of 5.
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Re: Early retirement plan advice (39yo, $880k, ~3.5% withdraw)

Post by willthrill81 »

mikejuss wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:11 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:00 pm
mikejuss wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:03 am Do you really want to live on $31,000 a year for 50 years, OP? That sounds pretty grim to me.
It depends greatly on one's lifestyle and the cost of living in a given area. There's an early retired family of 5 with a paid-off home who's documented all their spending for almost a decade now, and they never spend more than $40k, including significant traveling.
Yes, but that family probably lives in Bolivia, not the US.
They live in North Carolina. Read about them here.
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Re: Early retirement plan advice (39yo, $880k, ~3.5% withdraw)

Post by mikejuss »

willthrill81 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:17 pm
mikejuss wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:11 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:00 pm
mikejuss wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:03 am Do you really want to live on $31,000 a year for 50 years, OP? That sounds pretty grim to me.
It depends greatly on one's lifestyle and the cost of living in a given area. There's an early retired family of 5 with a paid-off home who's documented all their spending for almost a decade now, and they never spend more than $40k, including significant traveling.
Yes, but that family probably lives in Bolivia, not the US.
They live in North Carolina. Read about them here.
That's a lovely story, but I personally don't want my identity completely wrapped up in finding ways to save money. I know many here will disagree with me.
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Re: Early retirement plan advice (39yo, $880k, ~3.5% withdraw)

Post by willthrill81 »

mikejuss wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:24 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:17 pm
mikejuss wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:11 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:00 pm
mikejuss wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:03 am Do you really want to live on $31,000 a year for 50 years, OP? That sounds pretty grim to me.
It depends greatly on one's lifestyle and the cost of living in a given area. There's an early retired family of 5 with a paid-off home who's documented all their spending for almost a decade now, and they never spend more than $40k, including significant traveling.
Yes, but that family probably lives in Bolivia, not the US.
They live in North Carolina. Read about them here.
That's a lovely story, but I personally don't want my identity completely wrapped up in finding ways to save money. I know many here will disagree with me.
For a variety of reasons, many here just assume that a life where people spend under $100k isn't worth living, their life is consumed by seeking out the cheapest rice and beans possible, etc., but that just isn't the case. We only spent $50k last year and lead very fulfilling lives. Our friends say that we're frugal, and I'm sure that we are compared to most, but it doesn't consume much of our time. On the contrary, it consumes less time than if we weren't frugal and had to work longer to reach FI.
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Re: Early retirement plan advice (39yo, $880k, ~3.5% withdraw)

Post by mikejuss »

willthrill81 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:26 pm
mikejuss wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:24 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:17 pm
mikejuss wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:11 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:00 pm

It depends greatly on one's lifestyle and the cost of living in a given area. There's an early retired family of 5 with a paid-off home who's documented all their spending for almost a decade now, and they never spend more than $40k, including significant traveling.
Yes, but that family probably lives in Bolivia, not the US.
They live in North Carolina. Read about them here.
That's a lovely story, but I personally don't want my identity completely wrapped up in finding ways to save money. I know many here will disagree with me.
For a variety of reasons, many here just assume that a life where people spend under $100k isn't worth living, their life is consumed by seeking out the cheapest rice and beans possible, etc., but that just isn't the case. We only spent $50k last year and lead very fulfilling lives. Our friends say that we're frugal, and I'm sure that we are compared to most, but it doesn't consume much of our time. On the contrary, it consumes less time than if we weren't frugal and had to work longer to reach FI.
I understand this is all subjective, but for a family of 5 to live on $40,000...it seems like a stretch to me. And clearly--given that this person has started a blog to chronicle his life--frugality is a big part of his identity.
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Re: Early retirement plan advice (39yo, $880k, ~3.5% withdraw)

Post by willthrill81 »

mikejuss wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:37 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:26 pm
mikejuss wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:24 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:17 pm
mikejuss wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:11 pm

Yes, but that family probably lives in Bolivia, not the US.
They live in North Carolina. Read about them here.
That's a lovely story, but I personally don't want my identity completely wrapped up in finding ways to save money. I know many here will disagree with me.
For a variety of reasons, many here just assume that a life where people spend under $100k isn't worth living, their life is consumed by seeking out the cheapest rice and beans possible, etc., but that just isn't the case. We only spent $50k last year and lead very fulfilling lives. Our friends say that we're frugal, and I'm sure that we are compared to most, but it doesn't consume much of our time. On the contrary, it consumes less time than if we weren't frugal and had to work longer to reach FI.
I understand this is all subjective, but for a family of 5 to live on $40,000...it seems like a stretch to me. And clearly--given that this person has started a blog to chronicle his life--frugality is a big part of his identity.
Whether one 'makes it part of their identity' or not is beside the point, which is that a single person can live fine in the U.S. (just not anywhere in the U.S.) on $31k if a family of five can live well on $40k.
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Re: Early retirement plan advice (39yo, $880k, ~3.5% withdraw)

Post by mikejuss »

willthrill81 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:40 pm
mikejuss wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:37 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:26 pm
mikejuss wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:24 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:17 pm

They live in North Carolina. Read about them here.
That's a lovely story, but I personally don't want my identity completely wrapped up in finding ways to save money. I know many here will disagree with me.
For a variety of reasons, many here just assume that a life where people spend under $100k isn't worth living, their life is consumed by seeking out the cheapest rice and beans possible, etc., but that just isn't the case. We only spent $50k last year and lead very fulfilling lives. Our friends say that we're frugal, and I'm sure that we are compared to most, but it doesn't consume much of our time. On the contrary, it consumes less time than if we weren't frugal and had to work longer to reach FI.
I understand this is all subjective, but for a family of 5 to live on $40,000...it seems like a stretch to me. And clearly--given that this person has started a blog to chronicle his life--frugality is a big part of his identity.
Whether one 'makes it part of their identity' or not is beside the point, which is that a single person can live fine in the U.S. (just not anywhere in the U.S.) on $31k if a family of five can live well on $40k.
No--the fact that this person has a blog actually is my point--suggesting that he too knows his financial situation is special in some way. I'll leave it at that.
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Re: Early retirement plan advice (39yo, $880k, ~3.5% withdraw)

Post by Ineed$ »

willthrill81 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:40 pm [quote=mikejuss post_id=6478314 time=<a href="tel:1643243877">1643243877</a> user_id=162613]
[quote=willthrill81 post_id=6478294 time=<a href="tel:1643243184">1643243184</a> user_id=116799]
[quote=mikejuss post_id=6478289 time=<a href="tel:1643243040">1643243040</a> user_id=162613]
[quote=willthrill81 post_id=6478277 time=<a href="tel:1643242639">1643242639</a> user_id=116799]
[quote=mikejuss post_id=6478163 time=<a href="tel:1643238669">1643238669</a> user_id=162613]


Yes, but that family probably lives in Bolivia, not the US.
They live in North Carolina. Read about them here.
[/quote]

That's a lovely story, but I personally don't want my identity completely wrapped up in finding ways to save money. I know many here will disagree with me.
[/quote]

For a variety of reasons, many here just assume that a life where people spend under $100k isn't worth living, their life is consumed by seeking out the cheapest rice and beans possible, etc., but that just isn't the case. We only spent $50k last year and lead very fulfilling lives. Our friends say that we're frugal, and I'm sure that we are compared to most, but it doesn't consume much of our time. On the contrary, it consumes less time than if we weren't frugal and had to work longer to reach FI.
[/quote]

I understand this is all subjective, but for a family of 5 to live on $40,000...it seems like a stretch to me. And clearly--given that this person has started a blog to chronicle his life--frugality is a big part of his identity.
[/quote]

Whether one 'makes it part of their identity' or not is beside the point, which is that a single person can live fine in the U.S. (just not anywhere in the U.S.) on $31k if a family of five can live well on $40k.
[/quote]

I just said my leg nothing about his. My leg started twitching at the name plus the story. I grew up with 3 sister and a mom that made her small wage by babysitting whenever and wherever she could…
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Re: Early retirement plan advice (39yo, $880k, ~3.5% withdraw)

Post by willthrill81 »

mikejuss wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:54 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:40 pm
mikejuss wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:37 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:26 pm
mikejuss wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:24 pm

That's a lovely story, but I personally don't want my identity completely wrapped up in finding ways to save money. I know many here will disagree with me.
For a variety of reasons, many here just assume that a life where people spend under $100k isn't worth living, their life is consumed by seeking out the cheapest rice and beans possible, etc., but that just isn't the case. We only spent $50k last year and lead very fulfilling lives. Our friends say that we're frugal, and I'm sure that we are compared to most, but it doesn't consume much of our time. On the contrary, it consumes less time than if we weren't frugal and had to work longer to reach FI.
I understand this is all subjective, but for a family of 5 to live on $40,000...it seems like a stretch to me. And clearly--given that this person has started a blog to chronicle his life--frugality is a big part of his identity.
Whether one 'makes it part of their identity' or not is beside the point, which is that a single person can live fine in the U.S. (just not anywhere in the U.S.) on $31k if a family of five can live well on $40k.
No--the fact that this person has a blog actually is my point--suggesting that he too knows his financial situation is special in some way. I'll leave it at that.
So it's impossible to find a family of 5 living on $40k, because if we do, it's because they've publicized it in some way, made it 'part of their identity', and invalidated the proof? :confused
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Re: Early retirement plan advice (39yo, $880k, ~3.5% withdraw)

Post by stoptothink »

willthrill81 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:17 pm
mikejuss wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:11 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:00 pm
mikejuss wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:03 am Do you really want to live on $31,000 a year for 50 years, OP? That sounds pretty grim to me.
It depends greatly on one's lifestyle and the cost of living in a given area. There's an early retired family of 5 with a paid-off home who's documented all their spending for almost a decade now, and they never spend more than $40k, including significant traveling.
Yes, but that family probably lives in Bolivia, not the US.
They live in North Carolina. Read about them here.
There is nothing worse on these boards than the out-of-touch, "it's impossible to live off $50k/yr in the U.S." posts. Our entire household expenditures were ~$25k in '21, for a family of 4. We've averaged <$45k/yr over the last 7yrs, but that included paying for a home (now paid off), paying for wife's college (done), childcare (full-time for 2), and cash purchase of a car. We're in an area that is above the median for COL for the U.S., millionaires (outside of home equity), save ~60% of gross income, and have no interest in retiring for probably another decade - we just have no want to spend a whole lot more ATM. Not everybody on this board lives in the Bay Area, has their kids in private school, and vacations in Bora Bora.
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Re: Early retirement plan advice (39yo, $880k, ~3.5% withdraw)

Post by willthrill81 »

stoptothink wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:15 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:17 pm
mikejuss wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:11 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:00 pm
mikejuss wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:03 am Do you really want to live on $31,000 a year for 50 years, OP? That sounds pretty grim to me.
It depends greatly on one's lifestyle and the cost of living in a given area. There's an early retired family of 5 with a paid-off home who's documented all their spending for almost a decade now, and they never spend more than $40k, including significant traveling.
Yes, but that family probably lives in Bolivia, not the US.
They live in North Carolina. Read about them here.
There is nothing worse on these boards than the out-of-touch, "it's impossible to live off $50k/yr in the U.S." posts. Our entire household expenditures were ~$25k in '21, for a family of 4. We've averaged <$45k/yr over the last 7yrs, but that included paying for a home (now paid off), paying for wife's college (done), childcare (full-time for 2), and cash purchase of a car. We're in an area that is above the median for COL for the U.S., millionaires (outside of home equity), save ~60% of gross income, and have no interest in retiring for probably another decade - we just have no want to spend a whole lot more ATM. Not everybody on this board lives in the Bay Area, has their kids in private school, and vacations in Bora Bora.
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Re: Early retirement plan advice (39yo, $880k, ~3.5% withdraw)

Post by mikejuss »

stoptothink wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:15 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:17 pm
mikejuss wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:11 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:00 pm
mikejuss wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:03 am Do you really want to live on $31,000 a year for 50 years, OP? That sounds pretty grim to me.
It depends greatly on one's lifestyle and the cost of living in a given area. There's an early retired family of 5 with a paid-off home who's documented all their spending for almost a decade now, and they never spend more than $40k, including significant traveling.
Yes, but that family probably lives in Bolivia, not the US.
They live in North Carolina. Read about them here.
There is nothing worse on these boards than the out-of-touch, "it's impossible to live off $50k/yr in the U.S." posts. Our entire household expenditures were ~$25k in '21, for a family of 4. We've averaged <$45k/yr over the last 7yrs, but that included paying for a home (now paid off), paying for wife's college (done), childcare (full-time for 2), and cash purchase of a car. We're in an area that is above the median for COL for the U.S., millionaires (outside of home equity), save ~60% of gross income, and have no interest in retiring for probably another decade - we just have no want to spend a whole lot more ATM. Not everybody on this board lives in the Bay Area, has their kids in private school, and vacations in Bora Bora.
No one's saying it's impossible. People do what they need to do to get by; that's understood. I just don't agree with the members of this board who seem to make being frugal the center of their identity.
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Re: Early retirement plan advice (39yo, $880k, ~3.5% withdraw)

Post by willthrill81 »

mikejuss wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:25 pm
stoptothink wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:15 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:17 pm
mikejuss wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:11 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:00 pm

It depends greatly on one's lifestyle and the cost of living in a given area. There's an early retired family of 5 with a paid-off home who's documented all their spending for almost a decade now, and they never spend more than $40k, including significant traveling.
Yes, but that family probably lives in Bolivia, not the US.
They live in North Carolina. Read about them here.
There is nothing worse on these boards than the out-of-touch, "it's impossible to live off $50k/yr in the U.S." posts. Our entire household expenditures were ~$25k in '21, for a family of 4. We've averaged <$45k/yr over the last 7yrs, but that included paying for a home (now paid off), paying for wife's college (done), childcare (full-time for 2), and cash purchase of a car. We're in an area that is above the median for COL for the U.S., millionaires (outside of home equity), save ~60% of gross income, and have no interest in retiring for probably another decade - we just have no want to spend a whole lot more ATM. Not everybody on this board lives in the Bay Area, has their kids in private school, and vacations in Bora Bora.
No one's saying it's impossible. People do what they need to do to get by; that's understood. I just don't agree with the members of this board who seem to make being frugal the center of their identity.
You seem to think that those who don't spend a lot must be 'making being frugal the center of their identity'. That's completely erroneous.
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Re: Early retirement plan advice (39yo, $880k, ~3.5% withdraw)

Post by little_star »

I've been reading this thread with some interest. While I would not personally do what the OP plans to do, the commentary that $31k/yr is too little to live on in the US is highly biased by those who live in VHCOL areas and for those who have expensive wants (not needs). I've been tracking my expenses for the past 12 years and have average post-tax expenses of $16.6k/year,* with a low of $12k and a high of $31k. This includes years with high expenses due to home repairs and the purchase of a new car. It includes all home expenses (property taxes, maintenance, and replacement appliances) but not mortgage (paid off). It also does not include health insurance (paid by employer). Thus, I see it as emminently reasonable that the OP can live on $31k/year if he choses a location where the rent is rational and he will have access to subsidized health insurance. That said, I would not retire at his age with only $880k saved. The uncertainty of the cost of health insurance alone would make me question this plan. However, with a few more years of work (more savings and, simultaneously, fewer years for which the savings will be needed) and careful consideration of location for retirement, he should be able to retire early.

*Note that my quote for annual expenses is post-tax, as my current tax rate is based on my earnings, not on my spending.
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Re: Early retirement plan advice (39yo, $880k, ~3.5% withdraw)

Post by flyingaway »

I cannot believe that this thread has run this far. There are many people in the U.S. who retire in the U.S. and do not have $880k to their names. One can choose one's lifestyle according to one's wish.
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Re: Early retirement plan advice (39yo, $880k, ~3.5% withdraw)

Post by sailaway »

mikejuss wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:25 pm
No one's saying it's impossible. People do what they need to do to get by; that's understood. I just don't agree with the members of this board who seem to make being frugal the center of their identity.
Many have said it is miserable, and some have indeed cast doubt on the possibility. You yourself seem to think it is a matter of doing what you need to do to get by, rather than thriving. Of course we are going to pipe up to say "wait a minute!" when our own lives are described in these ways. Especially when other posters insist on giving advice based on their preferences rather than acknowledging the possibilities.
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Re: Early retirement plan advice (39yo, $880k, ~3.5% withdraw)

Post by mikejuss »

willthrill81 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:29 pm
mikejuss wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:25 pm
stoptothink wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:15 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:17 pm
mikejuss wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:11 pm

Yes, but that family probably lives in Bolivia, not the US.
They live in North Carolina. Read about them here.
There is nothing worse on these boards than the out-of-touch, "it's impossible to live off $50k/yr in the U.S." posts. Our entire household expenditures were ~$25k in '21, for a family of 4. We've averaged <$45k/yr over the last 7yrs, but that included paying for a home (now paid off), paying for wife's college (done), childcare (full-time for 2), and cash purchase of a car. We're in an area that is above the median for COL for the U.S., millionaires (outside of home equity), save ~60% of gross income, and have no interest in retiring for probably another decade - we just have no want to spend a whole lot more ATM. Not everybody on this board lives in the Bay Area, has their kids in private school, and vacations in Bora Bora.
No one's saying it's impossible. People do what they need to do to get by; that's understood. I just don't agree with the members of this board who seem to make being frugal the center of their identity.
You seem to think that those who don't spend a lot must be 'making being frugal the center of their identity'. That's completely erroneous.
This has gone way offtrack. To bring it back around, my comment to the OP is simply this: are you sure you want to live on $30,000 a year for the rest of your life? I believe that this is worth a thought--that's all.
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Re: Early retirement plan advice (39yo, $880k, ~3.5% withdraw)

Post by stoptothink »

mikejuss wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:25 pm
stoptothink wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:15 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:17 pm
mikejuss wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:11 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:00 pm

It depends greatly on one's lifestyle and the cost of living in a given area. There's an early retired family of 5 with a paid-off home who's documented all their spending for almost a decade now, and they never spend more than $40k, including significant traveling.
Yes, but that family probably lives in Bolivia, not the US.
They live in North Carolina. Read about them here.
There is nothing worse on these boards than the out-of-touch, "it's impossible to live off $50k/yr in the U.S." posts. Our entire household expenditures were ~$25k in '21, for a family of 4. We've averaged <$45k/yr over the last 7yrs, but that included paying for a home (now paid off), paying for wife's college (done), childcare (full-time for 2), and cash purchase of a car. We're in an area that is above the median for COL for the U.S., millionaires (outside of home equity), save ~60% of gross income, and have no interest in retiring for probably another decade - we just have no want to spend a whole lot more ATM. Not everybody on this board lives in the Bay Area, has their kids in private school, and vacations in Bora Bora.
No one's saying it's impossible. People do what they need to do to get by; that's understood. I just don't agree with the members of this board who seem to make being frugal the center of their identity.
:confused We're already at ~45x expenses (averaged over the last 7yrs) with a paid off home, and kids' college covered in 529s, yet we're not even considering retiring for ~10yrs (we're 40 and 35). If "frugality" was our identity, don't you think we would have retired already? Both wife and I grew up extremely poor and have not jumped on the hedonic treadmill as our income/NW has grown way more than we ever imagined - it's that simple. We don't have a blog and nobody outside the strangers on this board knows how much we make, how much we have, or how much we spend.

OUT.OF.TOUCH.
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Re: Early retirement plan advice (39yo, $880k, ~3.5% withdraw)

Post by marcopolo »

stoptothink wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:42 pm
mikejuss wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:25 pm
stoptothink wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:15 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:17 pm
mikejuss wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:11 pm

Yes, but that family probably lives in Bolivia, not the US.
They live in North Carolina. Read about them here.
There is nothing worse on these boards than the out-of-touch, "it's impossible to live off $50k/yr in the U.S." posts. Our entire household expenditures were ~$25k in '21, for a family of 4. We've averaged <$45k/yr over the last 7yrs, but that included paying for a home (now paid off), paying for wife's college (done), childcare (full-time for 2), and cash purchase of a car. We're in an area that is above the median for COL for the U.S., millionaires (outside of home equity), save ~60% of gross income, and have no interest in retiring for probably another decade - we just have no want to spend a whole lot more ATM. Not everybody on this board lives in the Bay Area, has their kids in private school, and vacations in Bora Bora.
No one's saying it's impossible. People do what they need to do to get by; that's understood. I just don't agree with the members of this board who seem to make being frugal the center of their identity.
:confused We're already at ~45x expenses (averaged over the last 7yrs) with a paid off home, and kids' college covered in 529s, yet we're not even considering retiring for ~10yrs (we're 40 and 35). If "frugality" was our identity, don't you think we would have retired already? Both wife and I grew up extremely poor and have not jumped on the hedonic treadmill as our income/NW has grown way more than we ever imagined - it's that simple. We don't have a blog and nobody outside the strangers on this board knows how much we make, how much we have, or how much we spend.

OUT.OF.TOUCH.
Did the definition of "frugal" change recently to mean retiring soon as you are able?!?
I always thought it meant spending a lot less money than you have the means to do.

I don't see anything wrong with living frugally. It does seem like a badge of honor on this forum to see who can the farthest below their means.

I also don't see anything wrong with people living up to their means. What else is the function of money? There also seems to be a badge of honor for spending money on luxury goods/services.

Not sure why either group feels the need to disparage the other.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.
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Re: Early retirement plan advice (39yo, $880k, ~3.5% withdraw)

Post by willthrill81 »

marcopolo wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:58 pm
stoptothink wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:42 pm
mikejuss wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:25 pm
stoptothink wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:15 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:17 pm

They live in North Carolina. Read about them here.
There is nothing worse on these boards than the out-of-touch, "it's impossible to live off $50k/yr in the U.S." posts. Our entire household expenditures were ~$25k in '21, for a family of 4. We've averaged <$45k/yr over the last 7yrs, but that included paying for a home (now paid off), paying for wife's college (done), childcare (full-time for 2), and cash purchase of a car. We're in an area that is above the median for COL for the U.S., millionaires (outside of home equity), save ~60% of gross income, and have no interest in retiring for probably another decade - we just have no want to spend a whole lot more ATM. Not everybody on this board lives in the Bay Area, has their kids in private school, and vacations in Bora Bora.
No one's saying it's impossible. People do what they need to do to get by; that's understood. I just don't agree with the members of this board who seem to make being frugal the center of their identity.
:confused We're already at ~45x expenses (averaged over the last 7yrs) with a paid off home, and kids' college covered in 529s, yet we're not even considering retiring for ~10yrs (we're 40 and 35). If "frugality" was our identity, don't you think we would have retired already? Both wife and I grew up extremely poor and have not jumped on the hedonic treadmill as our income/NW has grown way more than we ever imagined - it's that simple. We don't have a blog and nobody outside the strangers on this board knows how much we make, how much we have, or how much we spend.

OUT.OF.TOUCH.
Did the definition of "frugal" change recently to mean retiring soon as you are able?!?
I always thought it meant spending a lot less money than you have the means to do.

I don't see anything wrong with living frugally. It does seem like a badge of honor on this forum to see who can the farthest below their means.

I also don't see anything wrong with people living up to their means. What else is the function of money? There also seems to be a badge of honor for spending money on luxury goods/services.

Not sure why either group feels the need to disparage the other.
I was not trying to disparage anyone. The idea that I find abhorrent is that spending X means that 'being frugal is the center of that person's identity'. Can you imagine if we said something like 'That person is spending $300k, so frivolous consumption must be the center of their identity'? That would be equally abhorrent.
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Re: Early retirement plan advice (39yo, $880k, ~3.5% withdraw)

Post by Wanderingwheelz »

willthrill81 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:00 pm
mikejuss wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:03 am Do you really want to live on $31,000 a year for 50 years, OP? That sounds pretty grim to me.
It depends greatly on one's lifestyle and the cost of living in a given area. There's an early retired family of 5 with a paid-off home who's documented all their spending for almost a decade now, and they never spend more than $40k, including significant traveling.
Of whether or not you want to contribute to your children’s college costs.. allow them to participate in extracurricular activities that can be pretty expensive.. have their teeth straightened..

Yes, there are families of 5 living cheaply- there are thousands upon thousands of them. But the question was a valid one. Would you want to live that way by choice?

Do you really want to live like that, by choice?
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Re: Early retirement plan advice (39yo, $880k, ~3.5% withdraw)

Post by willthrill81 »

Wanderingwheelz wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:25 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:00 pm
mikejuss wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:03 am Do you really want to live on $31,000 a year for 50 years, OP? That sounds pretty grim to me.
It depends greatly on one's lifestyle and the cost of living in a given area. There's an early retired family of 5 with a paid-off home who's documented all their spending for almost a decade now, and they never spend more than $40k, including significant traveling.
Of whether or not you want to contribute to your children’s college costs.. allow them to participate in extracurricular activities that can be pretty expensive.. have their teeth straightened..

Yes, there are families of 5 living cheaply- there are thousands upon thousands of them. But the question was a valid one. Would you want to live that way by choice?

Do you really want to live like that, by choice?
That's for each person to decide. Far be it from me to say that someone should not voluntarily choose to live on $31k for the remainder of their life.
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Re: Early retirement plan advice (39yo, $880k, ~3.5% withdraw)

Post by 7eight9 »

Wanderingwheelz wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:25 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:00 pm
mikejuss wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:03 am Do you really want to live on $31,000 a year for 50 years, OP? That sounds pretty grim to me.
It depends greatly on one's lifestyle and the cost of living in a given area. There's an early retired family of 5 with a paid-off home who's documented all their spending for almost a decade now, and they never spend more than $40k, including significant traveling.
Of whether or not you want to contribute to your children’s college costs.. allow them to participate in extracurricular activities that can be pretty expensive.. have their teeth straightened..

Yes, there are families of 5 living cheaply- there are thousands upon thousands of them. But the question was a valid one. Would you want to live that way by choice?

Do you really want to live like that, by choice?
My wife and I spent less than $18K last year in Las Vegas. And that is not atypical. Admittedly we don't have a mortgage or car payment. Is it by choice? Absolutely. We are rapidly closing in on what could be a 1% withdrawal rate (ignoring any future Social Security).
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Re: Early retirement plan advice (39yo, $880k, ~3.5% withdraw)

Post by marcopolo »

willthrill81 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:14 pm
marcopolo wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:58 pm
stoptothink wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:42 pm
mikejuss wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:25 pm
stoptothink wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:15 pm

There is nothing worse on these boards than the out-of-touch, "it's impossible to live off $50k/yr in the U.S." posts. Our entire household expenditures were ~$25k in '21, for a family of 4. We've averaged <$45k/yr over the last 7yrs, but that included paying for a home (now paid off), paying for wife's college (done), childcare (full-time for 2), and cash purchase of a car. We're in an area that is above the median for COL for the U.S., millionaires (outside of home equity), save ~60% of gross income, and have no interest in retiring for probably another decade - we just have no want to spend a whole lot more ATM. Not everybody on this board lives in the Bay Area, has their kids in private school, and vacations in Bora Bora.
No one's saying it's impossible. People do what they need to do to get by; that's understood. I just don't agree with the members of this board who seem to make being frugal the center of their identity.
:confused We're already at ~45x expenses (averaged over the last 7yrs) with a paid off home, and kids' college covered in 529s, yet we're not even considering retiring for ~10yrs (we're 40 and 35). If "frugality" was our identity, don't you think we would have retired already? Both wife and I grew up extremely poor and have not jumped on the hedonic treadmill as our income/NW has grown way more than we ever imagined - it's that simple. We don't have a blog and nobody outside the strangers on this board knows how much we make, how much we have, or how much we spend.

OUT.OF.TOUCH.
Did the definition of "frugal" change recently to mean retiring soon as you are able?!?
I always thought it meant spending a lot less money than you have the means to do.

I don't see anything wrong with living frugally. It does seem like a badge of honor on this forum to see who can the farthest below their means.

I also don't see anything wrong with people living up to their means. What else is the function of money? There also seems to be a badge of honor for spending money on luxury goods/services.

Not sure why either group feels the need to disparage the other.
I was not trying to disparage anyone. The idea that I find abhorrent is that spending X means that 'being frugal is the center of that person's identity'. Can you imagine if we said something like 'That person is spending $300k, so frivolous consumption must be the center of their identity'? That would be equally abhorrent.
Some of the bloggers sometimes referenced here as examples of spending X, that have tons of money, and are even making a lot more from their blogs, and then write about living on shoestring budget, often while spending a lot more "off the record", do seem to present themselves as that being a big part, if not the center, of their identity.

I am not sure they should be held up as examples to emulate any more than the Financial Samurai who can barely live on $300k!
Last edited by marcopolo on Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Early retirement plan advice (39yo, $880k, ~3.5% withdraw)

Post by willthrill81 »

marcopolo wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:40 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:14 pm
marcopolo wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:58 pm
stoptothink wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:42 pm
mikejuss wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:25 pm

No one's saying it's impossible. People do what they need to do to get by; that's understood. I just don't agree with the members of this board who seem to make being frugal the center of their identity.
:confused We're already at ~45x expenses (averaged over the last 7yrs) with a paid off home, and kids' college covered in 529s, yet we're not even considering retiring for ~10yrs (we're 40 and 35). If "frugality" was our identity, don't you think we would have retired already? Both wife and I grew up extremely poor and have not jumped on the hedonic treadmill as our income/NW has grown way more than we ever imagined - it's that simple. We don't have a blog and nobody outside the strangers on this board knows how much we make, how much we have, or how much we spend.

OUT.OF.TOUCH.
Did the definition of "frugal" change recently to mean retiring soon as you are able?!?
I always thought it meant spending a lot less money than you have the means to do.

I don't see anything wrong with living frugally. It does seem like a badge of honor on this forum to see who can the farthest below their means.

I also don't see anything wrong with people living up to their means. What else is the function of money? There also seems to be a badge of honor for spending money on luxury goods/services.

Not sure why either group feels the need to disparage the other.
I was not trying to disparage anyone. The idea that I find abhorrent is that spending X means that 'being frugal is the center of that person's identity'. Can you imagine if we said something like 'That person is spending $300k, so frivolous consumption must be the center of their identity'? That would be equally abhorrent.
Some of the bloggers sometimes referenced here as examples of spending X, that have tons of money, and are even making a lot more from their blogs, and then write about living on shoestring budget, often while spending a lot more "off the record", do seem to present themselves as that being a big part, if not the center, of their identity.
MMM is the only one I've heard who has been guilty of that. I don't know that I would draw sweeping conclusions based on what one guy does.

Beyond that, not everyone who isn't a spendthrift hasn't made frugality the 'center of their identity', which is the statement that kicked off all this.
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Re: Early retirement plan advice (39yo, $880k, ~3.5% withdraw)

Post by Wanderingwheelz »

willthrill81 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:31 pm
Wanderingwheelz wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:25 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:00 pm
mikejuss wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:03 am Do you really want to live on $31,000 a year for 50 years, OP? That sounds pretty grim to me.
It depends greatly on one's lifestyle and the cost of living in a given area. There's an early retired family of 5 with a paid-off home who's documented all their spending for almost a decade now, and they never spend more than $40k, including significant traveling.
Of whether or not you want to contribute to your children’s college costs.. allow them to participate in extracurricular activities that can be pretty expensive.. have their teeth straightened..

Yes, there are families of 5 living cheaply- there are thousands upon thousands of them. But the question was a valid one. Would you want to live that way by choice?

Do you really want to live like that, by choice?
That's for each person to decide. Far be it from me to say that someone should not voluntarily choose to live on $31k for the remainder of their life.
But.. when something like this is brought up you champion your favorite family of 5 in North Carolina.

Clearly you admire them and are a big fan of their blog. It doesn’t matter to me, either, how much anyone other than myself wants to have in retirement. Comparison is the thief of joy, for sure.
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Re: Early retirement plan advice (39yo, $880k, ~3.5% withdraw)

Post by sailaway »

willthrill81 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:41 pm

MMM is the only one I've heard who has been guilty of that. I don't know that I would draw sweeping conclusions based on what one guy does.
He's not the only one. There is a couple that trots the globe on peanuts, but exclude all the time (and expenses) that they are travelling for work. Most of us don't cease to exist for weeks on end.

It is a pretty common trope to include a list of things that "don't count,' with some pretty elaborate reasons why (usually the media business, but for cruisers, they sometimes exclude visits back home, since that isn't part of cruising. I have seen a couple of cruising budgets that ignore repairs!!) Which irritates me because often the number they claim is realistic, it just doesn't buy the lifestyle they actually present. So they kill the credibility of anyone who is living at that level.
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Re: Early retirement plan advice (39yo, $880k, ~3.5% withdraw)

Post by willthrill81 »

sailaway wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:52 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:41 pm

MMM is the only one I've heard who has been guilty of that. I don't know that I would draw sweeping conclusions based on what one guy does.
He's not the only one. There is a couple that trots the globe on peanuts, but exclude all the time (and expenses) that they are travelling for work. Most of us don't cease to exist for weeks on end.

It is a pretty common trope to include a list of things that "don't count,' with some pretty elaborate reasons why (usually the media business, but for cruisers, they sometimes exclude visits back home, since that isn't part of cruising. I have seen a couple of cruising budgets that ignore repairs!!) Which irritates me because often the number they claim is realistic, it just doesn't buy the lifestyle they actually present. So they kill the credibility of anyone who is living at that level.
I'm not familiar with who you're referring to, but all that aside, it doesn't mean that all the plebians who spend under the median U.S. household income are just unfulfilled sops who've made frugality the 'center of their identity'.
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Re: Early retirement plan advice (39yo, $880k, ~3.5% withdraw)

Post by EnjoyIt »

We have always lived frugally. I lived below my means when I was in college. I lived below my means when I was in grad school. I lived below my means when I was a physician resident and I continue to live below my means on a physician salary. My income has increased and so has my (our family) spending, but it has always been below my means and frugal compared to my peers. What is wrong with being frugal? It has allowed us financial success and I would recommend our path to anyone who is interested in such.

I don't understand why anyone should be judgmental about one's life choices and desires. IF OP wants to live on $31k/yr and is happy doing so, then let OP be happy. We can add some thoughts and comments to give them pause and re-evaluate their choice to make sure it is the right choice, but what right do we have to imply that their choice is somehow inferior to our own?

Edit to add:
When I was younger I lived on an inflation adjusted budget far less than $31k/yr and I had a damn good time doing so.
Last edited by EnjoyIt on Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Early retirement plan advice (39yo, $880k, ~3.5% withdraw)

Post by willthrill81 »

EnjoyIt wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:01 pm We have always lived frugally. I lived below my means when I was in college. I lived below my means when I was in grad school. I lived below my means when I was a physician resident and I continue to live below my means on a physician salary. My income has increased and so has my (our family) spending, but it has always been below my means and frugal compared to my peers. What is wrong with being frugal? It has allowed us financial success and I would recommend our path to anyone who is interested in such.

I don't understand why anyone should be judgmental about one's life choices and desires. IF OP wants to live on $31k/yr and is happy doing so, then let OP be happy. We can add some thoughts and comments to give them pause and re-evaluate their choice to make sure it is the right choice, but what right do we have to imply that their choice is somehow inferior to our own?
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Firemenot
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Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:48 pm

Re: Early retirement plan advice (39yo, $880k, ~3.5% withdraw)

Post by Firemenot »

7eight9 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:31 pm
Wanderingwheelz wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:25 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:00 pm
mikejuss wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:03 am Do you really want to live on $31,000 a year for 50 years, OP? That sounds pretty grim to me.
It depends greatly on one's lifestyle and the cost of living in a given area. There's an early retired family of 5 with a paid-off home who's documented all their spending for almost a decade now, and they never spend more than $40k, including significant traveling.
Of whether or not you want to contribute to your children’s college costs.. allow them to participate in extracurricular activities that can be pretty expensive.. have their teeth straightened..

Yes, there are families of 5 living cheaply- there are thousands upon thousands of them. But the question was a valid one. Would you want to live that way by choice?

Do you really want to live like that, by choice?
My wife and I spent less than $18K last year in Las Vegas. And that is not atypical. Admittedly we don't have a mortgage or car payment. Is it by choice? Absolutely. We are rapidly closing in on what could be a 1% withdrawal rate (ignoring any future Social Security).
I’m assuming healthcare is mostly taken care of in a way that doesn’t much implicate the 18k?
Firemenot
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Re: Early retirement plan advice (39yo, $880k, ~3.5% withdraw)

Post by Firemenot »

Wanderingwheelz wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:55 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:22 pm
Wanderingwheelz wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:19 pm Elitism isn’t what you think is if you’re throwing shade on people who want to retire a few rungs above the poverty line.
I'm specifically referring to those who say that retiring 'a few rungs above the poverty line' is a poor choice for a grown, intelligent adult. It's their choice. Some like Coke, others like Pepsi, and still others prefer cabernet.
The poverty line in 2021 for a family of 5 was exactly $31,000. The family of 5 in NC that you’re fond of lives in the neighborhood of poverty- i.e. they’re having to make hard choices about where to deploy their money (despite what they may or may not be writing on their blog). I remember you pointing out that they spend in excess of $10,000 per year on leisure travel, so that would mean they’re having to sacrifice in areas where other families living close to the poverty line are not. It’s a life of remarkable trade-offs at those low figures.

It’s normal for a group of mostly college educated folks like who are found here to want something different for their families- without being accused of being elitists.
I’ve read their blog a bit in the past, including some of the interchanges in the comments involving the blogger. Donations to charity aren’t a priority/their thing. Their healthcare is almost free due to ACA subsidies. I don’t say the foregoing to impart any particular viewpoint on their choices, but just to describe how they can do it with such low spending. They have a rather basic house that is paid off. They play a lot of the credit card type games to fund travel. I’m also not sure that they are permanently committed to such low spending. The blogger does some paid consulting for “FIRE” clients and also makes some money off the blog. Their investments are growing and could fund much higher levels of spending in the future.
Ineed$
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Re: Early retirement plan advice (39yo, $880k, ~3.5% withdraw)

Post by Ineed$ »

Where did the originator of the this post go? Retired?
7eight9
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Re: Early retirement plan advice (39yo, $880k, ~3.5% withdraw)

Post by 7eight9 »

Firemenot wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:59 pm
7eight9 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:31 pm
Wanderingwheelz wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:25 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:00 pm
mikejuss wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:03 am Do you really want to live on $31,000 a year for 50 years, OP? That sounds pretty grim to me.
It depends greatly on one's lifestyle and the cost of living in a given area. There's an early retired family of 5 with a paid-off home who's documented all their spending for almost a decade now, and they never spend more than $40k, including significant traveling.
Of whether or not you want to contribute to your children’s college costs.. allow them to participate in extracurricular activities that can be pretty expensive.. have their teeth straightened..

Yes, there are families of 5 living cheaply- there are thousands upon thousands of them. But the question was a valid one. Would you want to live that way by choice?

Do you really want to live like that, by choice?
My wife and I spent less than $18K last year in Las Vegas. And that is not atypical. Admittedly we don't have a mortgage or car payment. Is it by choice? Absolutely. We are rapidly closing in on what could be a 1% withdrawal rate (ignoring any future Social Security).
I’m assuming healthcare is mostly taken care of in a way that doesn’t much implicate the 18k?
Correct. We have insurance through my wife's employer. There is no charge for it (HMO plan).
I guess it all could be much worse. | They could be warming up my hearse.
jfave33
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Re: Early retirement plan advice (39yo, $880k, ~3.5% withdraw)

Post by jfave33 »

To answer the question yes the op does want to spend the rest of their life living off $31k. It says so at the beginning :oops: Well less!
zuma
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Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:15 am

Re: Early retirement plan advice (39yo, $880k, ~3.5% withdraw)

Post by zuma »

A single person can easily live comfortably on $31k/year in the US, depending on the area. (For a family of 4 or 5, I'm not sure. But the OP is single.) If housing and healthcare costs are under control and you enjoy a simple lifestyle (mostly eating at home, cheap hobbies, etc), then it's really not difficult. In my experience, not having a car helps a lot, but that's obviously not realistic for everyone. Whether obsessive frugality is a part of your "identity" or not is irrelevant. People find happiness in different ways and I'm not sure why this is controversial.
59Gibson
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Re: Early retirement plan advice (39yo, $880k, ~3.5% withdraw)

Post by 59Gibson »

EnjoyIt wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:01 pm We have always lived frugally. I lived below my means when I was in college. I lived below my means when I was in grad school. I lived below my means when I was a physician resident and I continue to live below my means on a physician salary. My income has increased and so has my (our family) spending, but it has always been below my means and frugal compared to my peers. What is wrong with being frugal? It has allowed us financial success and I would recommend our path to anyone who is interested in such.

I don't understand why anyone should be judgmental about one's life choices and desires. IF OP wants to live on $31k/yr and is happy doing so, then let OP be happy. We can add some thoughts and comments to give them pause and re-evaluate their choice to make sure it is the right choice, but what right do we have to imply that their choice is somehow inferior to our own?

Edit to add:
When I was younger I lived on an inflation adjusted budget far less than $31k/yr and I had a damn good time doing so.
+1 I do not think there is any doubt that many here on BH, most of America, and probably many other countries describe All of their spending as essential. God knows I'm guilty. A big question is -how much time do you want to give up for X?? No right or wrong answer as long as it's a conscious decision. That's the difference here, most non-BH do not even give it a thought.
stoptothink
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Re: Early retirement plan advice (39yo, $880k, ~3.5% withdraw)

Post by stoptothink »

59Gibson wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:52 am
EnjoyIt wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:01 pm We have always lived frugally. I lived below my means when I was in college. I lived below my means when I was in grad school. I lived below my means when I was a physician resident and I continue to live below my means on a physician salary. My income has increased and so has my (our family) spending, but it has always been below my means and frugal compared to my peers. What is wrong with being frugal? It has allowed us financial success and I would recommend our path to anyone who is interested in such.

I don't understand why anyone should be judgmental about one's life choices and desires. IF OP wants to live on $31k/yr and is happy doing so, then let OP be happy. We can add some thoughts and comments to give them pause and re-evaluate their choice to make sure it is the right choice, but what right do we have to imply that their choice is somehow inferior to our own?

Edit to add:
When I was younger I lived on an inflation adjusted budget far less than $31k/yr and I had a damn good time doing so.
+1 I do not think there is any doubt that many here on BH, most of America, and probably many other countries describe All of their spending as essential. God knows I'm guilty. A big question is -how much time do you want to give up for X?? No right or wrong answer as long as it's a conscious decision. That's the difference here, most non-BH do not even give it a thought.
+2 The judgement is what rubs me the wrong way. If you want to live your life differently than me, I couldn't care less. We're worth a lot more than OP and may have even more simple lifestyle tastes (so we know darn well their plan is possible), but I wouldn't attempt to retire in their financial position; that doesn't mean "frugality is their identity" or that they are wrong.
EnjoyIt
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Re: Early retirement plan advice (39yo, $880k, ~3.5% withdraw)

Post by EnjoyIt »

59Gibson wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:52 am
EnjoyIt wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:01 pm We have always lived frugally. I lived below my means when I was in college. I lived below my means when I was in grad school. I lived below my means when I was a physician resident and I continue to live below my means on a physician salary. My income has increased and so has my (our family) spending, but it has always been below my means and frugal compared to my peers. What is wrong with being frugal? It has allowed us financial success and I would recommend our path to anyone who is interested in such.

I don't understand why anyone should be judgmental about one's life choices and desires. IF OP wants to live on $31k/yr and is happy doing so, then let OP be happy. We can add some thoughts and comments to give them pause and re-evaluate their choice to make sure it is the right choice, but what right do we have to imply that their choice is somehow inferior to our own?

Edit to add:
When I was younger I lived on an inflation adjusted budget far less than $31k/yr and I had a damn good time doing so.
+1 I do not think there is any doubt that many here on BH, most of America, and probably many other countries describe All of their spending as essential. God knows I'm guilty. A big question is -how much time do you want to give up for X?? No right or wrong answer as long as it's a conscious decision. That's the difference here, most non-BH do not even give it a thought.
"How much time do you want to give up for X?"
I ask that question all the time. A great example is a fancy car. I would like a fancy car, but how much extra work would I need to do to get that car? I have the time to do the work, but I would rather do something else. Answers my question right away. No fancy car.
A time to EVALUATE your jitters: | viewtopic.php?p=1139732#p1139732
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