Made a horrible mistake with my retirement accounts

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Topic Author
jarhead
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Made a horrible mistake with my retirement accounts

Post by jarhead »

On my brother's recommendation, I have moved all of my and wife's retirement accounts and a taxable JWROS account to Fisher Investments. I had a concern about their fees, but my brother convinced me that Fisher will get me higher returns and during market downturns, the loses won't be as severe. Based on my math, our combined $1.8M retirement accounts, we are probably going to be paying north of $20k in fees plus whatever the expense ratio fees are.
I always trusted his opinion, but should have known better and checked in with the Bogleheads before pulling the trigger :oops: . Now that the damage is done, what are your suggestions? Once I dump them, should I transfer everything into Vanguard or Fidelity and invest in total stock/bond/international funds? Will there be a taxable event when the JWROS account is transferred to another institution?
mptfan
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Re: Made a horrible mistake with my retirement accounts

Post by mptfan »

jarhead wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:22 pmOnce I dump them, should I transfer everything into Vanguard or Fidelity and invest in total stock/bond/international funds? Will there be a taxable event when the JWROS account is transferred to another institution?
Yes, or Schwab. Probably yes, unless you can do an in-kind transfer.
Last edited by mptfan on Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Artful Dodger
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Re: Made a horrible mistake with my retirement accounts

Post by Artful Dodger »

I post this whenever I see a question on Fisher...

viewtopic.php?p=6227038#p6227038

FWIW - my experience.
superbobbyg
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Re: Made a horrible mistake with my retirement accounts

Post by superbobbyg »

You might call them and try to negotiate some of that fee be returned. After you get some renumeration, at that point transfer to a Vanguard or Schwab or Fidelity.

Don't go down without a fight.

bob
exodusNH
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Re: Made a horrible mistake with my retirement accounts

Post by exodusNH »

jarhead wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:22 pm On my brother's recommendation, I have moved all of my and wife's retirement accounts and a taxable JWROS account to Fisher Investments. I had a concern about their fees, but my brother convinced me that Fisher will get me higher returns and during market downturns, the loses won't be as severe. Based on my math, our combined $1.8M retirement accounts, we are probably going to be paying north of $20k in fees plus whatever the expense ratio fees are.
I always trusted his opinion, but should have known better and checked in with the Bogleheads before pulling the trigger :oops: . Now that the damage is done, what are your suggestions? Once I dump them, should I transfer everything into Vanguard or Fidelity and invest in total stock/bond/international funds? Will there be a taxable event when the JWROS account is transferred to another institution?
As long as your taxable account isn't holding some proprietary Fisher fund, you can do an "in-kind" transfer to another brokerage, which avoids taxes. Note that depending on what's in that account, you may incur expenses selling them or may not be able to purchase any more. (Search your brokerage's no-transaction-fee mutual fund list for specifics.)
dbr
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Re: Made a horrible mistake with my retirement accounts

Post by dbr »

exodusNH wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:30 pm
jarhead wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:22 pm On my brother's recommendation, I have moved all of my and wife's retirement accounts and a taxable JWROS account to Fisher Investments. I had a concern about their fees, but my brother convinced me that Fisher will get me higher returns and during market downturns, the loses won't be as severe. Based on my math, our combined $1.8M retirement accounts, we are probably going to be paying north of $20k in fees plus whatever the expense ratio fees are.
I always trusted his opinion, but should have known better and checked in with the Bogleheads before pulling the trigger :oops: . Now that the damage is done, what are your suggestions? Once I dump them, should I transfer everything into Vanguard or Fidelity and invest in total stock/bond/international funds? Will there be a taxable event when the JWROS account is transferred to another institution?
As long as your taxable account isn't holding some proprietary Fisher fund, you can do an "in-kind" transfer to another brokerage, which avoids taxes. Note that depending on what's in that account, you may incur expenses selling them or may not be able to purchase any more. (Search your brokerage's no-transaction-fee mutual fund list for specifics.)
That's right. And at that point you have to look at the expense ratios you are paying and what capital gains might be incurred to get rid of something you really don't want. This can be done over time excepting something that can't be transferred.
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arcticpineapplecorp.
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Re: Made a horrible mistake with my retirement accounts

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. »

jarhead wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:22 pm On my brother's recommendation, I have moved all of my and wife's retirement accounts and a taxable JWROS account to Fisher Investments. I had a concern about their fees, but my brother convinced me that Fisher will get me higher returns and during market downturns, the loses won't be as severe.
the other part of your question has been answered.

1. can i ask if your brother was able to actually document the claims he made to you?

i'm curious if your brother has any hard evidence of his claim or if he is just parroting what Fisher told them (they are in the advertising and marketing business you know).

2. if he showed you actual evidence, could you share that here to see if we can understand what Fisher did to get higher returns with lower drawdowns (because that seems to be a violation of the fundamental rule of investing which is that risk and return is inextricably linked, therefore the only way to accomplish higher returns with lower risk is through market timing and I'm dubious of any such claim of superiority in the market timing domain).

3. i'm assuming your brother uses Fisher which explains his enthusiasm for Fisher?

4. Did your brother get any kind of referral bonus when you signed up with Fisher?

5. If so, I'd ask your brother to return that referral bonus to you, not Fisher.
It's hard to accept the truth when the lies were exactly what you wanted to hear. Investing is simple, but not easy. Buy, hold & rebalance low cost index funds & manage taxable events. Asking Portfolio Questions | Wiki
dbr
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Re: Made a horrible mistake with my retirement accounts

Post by dbr »

Did your brother explain what the fees would be? Presumably he believes the fees are worth it for better returns.
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mrspock
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Re: Made a horrible mistake with my retirement accounts

Post by mrspock »

Artful Dodger wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:27 pm I post this whenever I see a question on Fisher...

viewtopic.php?p=6227038#p6227038

FWIW - my experience.
Great post, and sound, simple logic.

OP, avoid the temptation to blame your brother on this, OR be punitive towards him. As bitter of a pill it might be, this decision is yours and you need to own it. The fault lies at your feet for following the advice, and not thinking through a decision which is so contrary to one of the very basic principals of being a Boglehead: avoid AUM/high fee advisors as ~85% of them cannot best indexing after fees and taxes.

Take it as a lesson, and move on. Don’t complicate matters by harming a relationship as well.
Last edited by mrspock on Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
JnyVuko
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Re: Made a horrible mistake with my retirement accounts

Post by JnyVuko »

jarhead wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:22 pm On my brother's recommendation, I have moved all of my and wife's retirement accounts and a taxable JWROS account to Fisher Investments. I had a concern about their fees, but my brother convinced me that Fisher will get me higher returns and during market downturns, the loses won't be as severe. Based on my math, our combined $1.8M retirement accounts, we are probably going to be paying north of $20k in fees plus whatever the expense ratio fees are.
I always trusted his opinion, but should have known better and checked in with the Bogleheads before pulling the trigger :oops: . Now that the damage is done, what are your suggestions? Once I dump them, should I transfer everything into Vanguard or Fidelity and invest in total stock/bond/international funds? Will there be a taxable event when the JWROS account is transferred to another institution?
I'm sorry to hear this. To minimize the "hit", reverse in the least impactful way possible and chalk it up to an expensive lesson....hopefully NOT to be learned again.
Topic Author
jarhead
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Re: Made a horrible mistake with my retirement accounts

Post by jarhead »

arcticpineapplecorp. wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:38 pm
jarhead wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:22 pm On my brother's recommendation, I have moved all of my and wife's retirement accounts and a taxable JWROS account to Fisher Investments. I had a concern about their fees, but my brother convinced me that Fisher will get me higher returns and during market downturns, the loses won't be as severe.
the other part of your question has been answered.

1. can i ask if your brother was able to actually document the claims he made to you?
I did not ask, but once the dust settles, I will do so. BTW, he also had his best friend move to Fisher

i'm curious if your brother has any hard evidence of his claim or if he is just parroting what Fisher told them (they are in the advertising and marketing business you know).

2. if he showed you actual evidence, could you share that here to see if we can understand what Fisher did to get higher returns with lower drawdowns (because that seems to be a violation of the fundamental rule of investing which is that risk and return is inextricably linked, therefore the only way to accomplish higher returns with lower risk is through market timing and I'm dubious of any such claim of superiority in the market timing domain).

3. i'm assuming your brother uses Fisher which explains his enthusiasm for Fisher?
He is using Fisher

4. Did your brother get any kind of referral bonus when you signed up with Fisher?
Don't know

5. If so, I'd ask your brother to return that referral bonus to you, not Fisher.
I get your point, but I still blame myself for falling into the trap - I should have been asking questions here first and not diving in head-first
Topic Author
jarhead
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Re: Made a horrible mistake with my retirement accounts

Post by jarhead »

dbr wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:43 pm Did your brother explain what the fees would be? Presumably he believes the fees are worth it for better returns.
Yes, he did explain the fees and probably believes that it's worth the price.
dbr
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Re: Made a horrible mistake with my retirement accounts

Post by dbr »

jarhead wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:52 pm
dbr wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:43 pm Did your brother explain what the fees would be? Presumably he believes the fees are worth it for better returns.
Yes, he did explain the fees and probably believes that it's worth the price.
One more in a long history of individual investors bamboozled by the financial services industry and nothing can be done about it except to try to inform people.
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arcticpineapplecorp.
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Re: Made a horrible mistake with my retirement accounts

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. »

jarhead wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:51 pm BTW, he also had his best friend move to Fisher
At this rate your brother should be working in Fisher's marketing and sales department!
It's hard to accept the truth when the lies were exactly what you wanted to hear. Investing is simple, but not easy. Buy, hold & rebalance low cost index funds & manage taxable events. Asking Portfolio Questions | Wiki
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jarhead
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Re: Made a horrible mistake with my retirement accounts

Post by jarhead »

mrspock wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:47 pm
Artful Dodger wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:27 pm I post this whenever I see a question on Fisher...

viewtopic.php?p=6227038#p6227038

FWIW - my experience.
Great post, and sound, simple logic.

OP, avoid the temptation to blame your brother on this, OR be punitive towards him. As bitter of a pill it might be, this decision is yours and you need to own it. The fault lies at your feet for following the advice, and not thinking through a decision which is so contrary to one of the very basic principals of being a Boglehead: avoid AUM/high fee advisors as ~85% of them cannot best indexing after fees and taxes.

Take it as a lesson, and move on. Don’t complicate matters by harming a relationship as well.
I agree 100% with you and not going to blame my brother for my own mistakes - I should have asked all the question before blindly trusting his claims.
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illumination
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Re: Made a horrible mistake with my retirement accounts

Post by illumination »

As others have said, have the funds pulled over and then liquidate. When you open a new account (I would recommend either Schwab or Fidelity) you basically check a box and everything moves over to the new account. They handle it. Very easy to do.

If you call your "guy" at Fisher and say you want to sell everything for a transfer, you're going to encounter some resistance. Might slow things down.

I would just make sure to take screen shots of all cost basis info and download all available statements before closing out at Fisher.

You're paying around $400 a week/$1,600 a month for Fisher to manage this, and it's likely more for funds with loads and high expense ratios.

Get the funds Fisher put your brother (and you) in and compare them to low cost index funds on PortfolioVisualizer.Com and see how they fare. After fees, I highly doubt they outperform.
Carguy85
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Re: Made a horrible mistake with my retirement accounts

Post by Carguy85 »

jarhead wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:07 pm
mrspock wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:47 pm
Artful Dodger wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:27 pm I post this whenever I see a question on Fisher...

viewtopic.php?p=6227038#p6227038

FWIW - my experience.
Great post, and sound, simple logic.

OP, avoid the temptation to blame your brother on this, OR be punitive towards him. As bitter of a pill it might be, this decision is yours and you need to own it. The fault lies at your feet for following the advice, and not thinking through a decision which is so contrary to one of the very basic principals of being a Boglehead: avoid AUM/high fee advisors as ~85% of them cannot best indexing after fees and taxes.

Take it as a lesson, and move on. Don’t complicate matters by harming a relationship as well.
I agree 100% with you and not going to blame my brother for my own mistakes - I should have asked all the question before blindly trusting his claims.
+1....I wouldn’t compare anything fund wise or ask for verification of numbers and probably would very much avoid speaking about anything investment/money wise in the future. You know what the truth is. No need to insult his beliefs and make future encounters with him awkward. There is 0 upside to this. I know this all to well with an elder family member that sold whole life.
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Doom&Gloom
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Re: Made a horrible mistake with my retirement accounts

Post by Doom&Gloom »

My condolences.

Good luck for a painless reversal.
Topic Author
jarhead
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Re: Made a horrible mistake with my retirement accounts

Post by jarhead »

Doom&Gloom wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:37 pm My condolences.

Good luck for a painless reversal.
Thank you, but I doubt it will be painless :)
delamer
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Re: Made a horrible mistake with my retirement accounts

Post by delamer »

Where was your money before you made the move to Fisher?
One thing that humbles me deeply is to see that human genius has its limits while human stupidity does not. - Alexandre Dumas, fils
Jack FFR1846
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Re: Made a horrible mistake with my retirement accounts

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

$20k on $1.8M?! Yeoch?

My portfolio is about double that and my total fees is just under $600 (six hundred). So yours would be under $300.

Fisher charges the exorbitant AUM and ERs of the funds. Then let's look at active vs passive. Annually, passive beats active 80% of the time. 10 years, over 99% of the time. So expect underperformance compared to index/passive.

This is part of why I say "thieves" when the Fisher commercials come up on TV.
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Topic Author
jarhead
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Re: Made a horrible mistake with my retirement accounts

Post by jarhead »

delamer wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:43 pm Where was your money before you made the move to Fisher?
It was scattered all over the place... company's 401(k), Vanguard IRA, Fidelity 403(b), and NYS 457 Plan.
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goingup
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Re: Made a horrible mistake with my retirement accounts

Post by goingup »

jarhead wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:22 pm Will there be a taxable event when the JWROS account is transferred to another institution?
I'm curious about what Fisher did with your low-cost index funds you once owned. (I scanned your prior forum posts.) I thought Fisher uses primarily individual stocks. Did they sell what you owned before?

Whether you now own stocks or funds you can likely transfer-in-kind to a different broker. If you sell your holdings you will most certainly have capital gains. This is the only tricky part to leaving Fisher and changing investments.
sureshoe
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Re: Made a horrible mistake with my retirement accounts

Post by sureshoe »

jarhead wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:22 pm On my brother's recommendation, I have moved all of my and wife's retirement accounts and a taxable JWROS account to Fisher Investments. I had a concern about their fees, but my brother convinced me that Fisher will get me higher returns and during market downturns, the loses won't be as severe. Based on my math, our combined $1.8M retirement accounts, we are probably going to be paying north of $20k in fees plus whatever the expense ratio fees are.
I always trusted his opinion, but should have known better and checked in with the Bogleheads before pulling the trigger :oops: . Now that the damage is done, what are your suggestions? Once I dump them, should I transfer everything into Vanguard or Fidelity and invest in total stock/bond/international funds? Will there be a taxable event when the JWROS account is transferred to another institution?
Just to educate myself - you said you're going to be paying north of $20k in fees, is that assessed even if you move out? Are they charging you their annual management fee upfront for the whole year? I would assume they charge around 1-1.5%. I've never used such a service, but I figured this would be charged on the month or quarter or something.
Topic Author
jarhead
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Re: Made a horrible mistake with my retirement accounts

Post by jarhead »

goingup wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:02 pm
jarhead wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:22 pm Will there be a taxable event when the JWROS account is transferred to another institution?
I'm curious about what Fisher did with your low-cost index funds you once owned. (I scanned your prior forum posts.) I thought Fisher uses primarily individual stocks. Did they sell what you owned before?
Yes, they sold everything that was owned before

Whether you now own stocks or funds you can likely transfer-in-kind to a different broker. If you sell your holdings you will most certainly have capital gains. This is the only tricky part to leaving Fisher and changing investments.
I understand and that's the price I have to pay for my own stupidity.
Here's an interesting part... Fisher's account is through Fidelity - when I sever my relationship with them, can I just stay with Fidelity using the same accounts?
Makefile
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Re: Made a horrible mistake with my retirement accounts

Post by Makefile »

jarhead wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:10 pm Here's an interesting part... Fisher's account is through Fidelity - when I sever my relationship with them, can I just stay with Fidelity using the same accounts?
That's an interesting question, as the often recommended way to fire an advisor is to just pull the assets to another brokerage to avoid having a negotiation about it. Not sure of a better way to just tell an advisor to "release" their grips on your account.
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goingup
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Re: Made a horrible mistake with my retirement accounts

Post by goingup »

jarhead wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:10 pm
goingup wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:02 pm
jarhead wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:22 pm Will there be a taxable event when the JWROS account is transferred to another institution?
I'm curious about what Fisher did with your low-cost index funds you once owned. (I scanned your prior forum posts.) I thought Fisher uses primarily individual stocks. Did they sell what you owned before?
Yes, they sold everything that was owned before

Whether you now own stocks or funds you can likely transfer-in-kind to a different broker. If you sell your holdings you will most certainly have capital gains. This is the only tricky part to leaving Fisher and changing investments.
I understand and that's the price I have to pay for my own stupidity.
Here's an interesting part... Fisher's account is through Fidelity - when I sever my relationship with them, can I just stay with Fidelity using the same accounts?
I think you probably can stay at Fidelity. Your account would become "self-directed". I'd call Fidelity and talk to them about this.
delamer
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Re: Made a horrible mistake with my retirement accounts

Post by delamer »

jarhead wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:51 pm
delamer wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:43 pm Where was your money before you made the move to Fisher?
It was scattered all over the place... company's 401(k), Vanguard IRA, Fidelity 403(b), and NYS 457 Plan.
And now it’s just two retirement accounts — one tax-deferred each for you and your wife? Plus one joint taxabel?

BTW, whichever custodian that you move to can tell you in advance which individual investments will transfer and which will not (for the taxable or anything in tax deferred that you think is worth keeping).

Also, the new custodian should be able to initiate the transfer for you and “pull” the funds/cash to your new accounts.
One thing that humbles me deeply is to see that human genius has its limits while human stupidity does not. - Alexandre Dumas, fils
Topic Author
jarhead
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Re: Made a horrible mistake with my retirement accounts

Post by jarhead »

delamer wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:22 pm
jarhead wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:51 pm
delamer wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:43 pm Where was your money before you made the move to Fisher?
It was scattered all over the place... company's 401(k), Vanguard IRA, Fidelity 403(b), and NYS 457 Plan.
And now it’s just two retirement accounts — one tax-deferred each for you and your wife? Plus one joint taxable?
That's exactly right.

BTW, whichever custodian that you move to can tell you in advance which individual investments will transfer and which will not (for the taxable or anything in tax deferred that you think is worth keeping).

Also, the new custodian should be able to initiate the transfer for you and “pull” the funds/cash to your new accounts.
I will call Fidelity tomorrow and talk to them about it - since Fisher's account is with Fidelity, I would like to stay with them in a self-directed account.
pedalman701
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Re: Made a horrible mistake with my retirement accounts

Post by pedalman701 »

I somehow ended up on Fisher's mailing list, and received a pitch worthy of a timeshare sale in the mail yesterday. Looked at the first paragraph, felt the snake oil oozing from it, and pitched it into File 13. 8-)
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NotWhoYouThink
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Re: Made a horrible mistake with my retirement accounts

Post by NotWhoYouThink »

Your desire to do something now to reverse this is understandable, but I advise you to wait just a bit. You don't seem ready to strike out on your own yet.

"Getting out of Fisher" is not a solution, and is just barely the start of a thought of a solution. First you need to figure out how you want your money invested and why. Leaving it at Fisher for another couple of weeks or a month is no big deal, you are putting together a plan that should take you through several decades.

There is a lot of great information on the wiki here, and plenty of helpful free advisors on this board. Put together a plan, bounce it against some of the posters here, refine it a couple of times, discuss it with your spouse.

Then move your money out of Fisher.

Good luck. You are ahead of all the people who haven't thought things through nearly as much as you have yet.
delamer
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Re: Made a horrible mistake with my retirement accounts

Post by delamer »

Familiarize yourself with the Target Retirement and LifeStrategy funds offered Vanguard.

These are options based on low-cost index investing that reduce your inclination to tinker and second guess yourself.

Here are the links:

https://investor.vanguard.com/mutual-fu ... irement/#/

https://investor.vanguard.com/mutual-fu ... trategy/#/
One thing that humbles me deeply is to see that human genius has its limits while human stupidity does not. - Alexandre Dumas, fils
manatee2005
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Re: Made a horrible mistake with my retirement accounts

Post by manatee2005 »

jarhead wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:22 pm On my brother's recommendation, I have moved all of my and wife's retirement accounts and a taxable JWROS account to Fisher Investments. I had a concern about their fees, but my brother convinced me that Fisher will get me higher returns and during market downturns, the loses won't be as severe. Based on my math, our combined $1.8M retirement accounts, we are probably going to be paying north of $20k in fees plus whatever the expense ratio fees are.
I always trusted his opinion, but should have known better and checked in with the Bogleheads before pulling the trigger :oops: . Now that the damage is done, what are your suggestions? Once I dump them, should I transfer everything into Vanguard or Fidelity and invest in total stock/bond/international funds? Will there be a taxable event when the JWROS account is transferred to another institution?
So the fees are 1.1%. Do you think Fisher can you 1.1% more than market based funds?
Money_Badger
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Re: Made a horrible mistake with my retirement accounts

Post by Money_Badger »

About every 3 months, Fisher sends me a pretty little brochure in the mail trying to get me to invest with them.

I stopped even opening them.
mikejuss
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Re: Made a horrible mistake with my retirement accounts

Post by mikejuss »

How does Fisher "get" higher returns? Is there a Fisher fund that you wanted to buy into that is available only to full-on customers? I'm confused...
50% VTSAX | 25% VTIAX | 25% VBTLX (retirement), 25% VTEAX (taxable)
Topic Author
jarhead
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Re: Made a horrible mistake with my retirement accounts

Post by jarhead »

NotWhoYouThink wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:58 am Your desire to do something now to reverse this is understandable, but I advise you to wait just a bit. You don't seem ready to strike out on your own yet.

"Getting out of Fisher" is not a solution, and is just barely the start of a thought of a solution. First you need to figure out how you want your money invested and why. Leaving it at Fisher for another couple of weeks or a month is no big deal, you are putting together a plan that should take you through several decades.

There is a lot of great information on the wiki here, and plenty of helpful free advisors on this board. Put together a plan, bounce it against some of the posters here, refine it a couple of times, discuss it with your spouse.

Then move your money out of Fisher.

Good luck. You are ahead of all the people who haven't thought things through nearly as much as you have yet.
Moving the accounts out of Fisher will probably take a couple of weeks as I am sure they will be dragging their feet.
For my retirement accounts, the plan is to go back to a 3-fund type portfolio that I had when my IRA account was with Vanguard. As far as the taxable account is concerned, I will bounce some ideas on this forum to get advice.
Since the Fisher account is currently with Fidelity, I will most likely leave the money with them and find the equivalent index funds.

I believe these are Vanguard's equivalents at Fidelity:
VTSAX = FZROX
VBTLX = FXNAX
VTIAX = FZILX
delamer wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:19 am Familiarize yourself with the Target Retirement and LifeStrategy funds offered Vanguard.

These are options based on low-cost index investing that reduce your inclination to tinker and second guess yourself.

Here are the links:

https://investor.vanguard.com/mutual-fu ... irement/#/

https://investor.vanguard.com/mutual-fu ... trategy/#/

I was looking at the LifeStrategy funds and VSMGX 60/40 split may be the one I would be interested in. Does Fidelity have something similar?
deltaneutral83
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Re: Made a horrible mistake with my retirement accounts

Post by deltaneutral83 »

Curious OP, you joined BH in 2008 and were in index funds? What was the thought to move to Fisher after having been exposed to BH? I'd have been a made man by now if I had found BH in 2008. The mere sight of the TV ad's for those companies just makes me sick these days, probably more the whole life companies, but active mangers with high AUM too.
delamer
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Re: Made a horrible mistake with my retirement accounts

Post by delamer »

jarhead wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:42 pm
NotWhoYouThink wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:58 am Your desire to do something now to reverse this is understandable, but I advise you to wait just a bit. You don't seem ready to strike out on your own yet.

"Getting out of Fisher" is not a solution, and is just barely the start of a thought of a solution. First you need to figure out how you want your money invested and why. Leaving it at Fisher for another couple of weeks or a month is no big deal, you are putting together a plan that should take you through several decades.

There is a lot of great information on the wiki here, and plenty of helpful free advisors on this board. Put together a plan, bounce it against some of the posters here, refine it a couple of times, discuss it with your spouse.

Then move your money out of Fisher.

Good luck. You are ahead of all the people who haven't thought things through nearly as much as you have yet.
Moving the accounts out of Fisher will probably take a couple of weeks as I am sure they will be dragging their feet.
For my retirement accounts, the plan is to go back to a 3-fund type portfolio that I had when my IRA account was with Vanguard. As far as the taxable account is concerned, I will bounce some ideas on this forum to get advice.
Since the Fisher account is currently with Fidelity, I will most likely leave the money with them and find the equivalent index funds.

I believe these are Vanguard's equivalents at Fidelity:
VTSAX = FZROX
VBTLX = FXNAX
VTIAX = FZILX
delamer wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:19 am Familiarize yourself with the Target Retirement and LifeStrategy funds offered Vanguard.

These are options based on low-cost index investing that reduce your inclination to tinker and second guess yourself.

Here are the links:

https://investor.vanguard.com/mutual-fu ... irement/#/

https://investor.vanguard.com/mutual-fu ... trategy/#/

I was looking at the LifeStrategy funds and VSMGX 60/40 split may be the one I would be interested in. Does Fidelity have something similar?
I’m not familiar with Fidelity’s offerings, but I think they have index-based target date funds. Easy enough to do a search.

You always can buy Vanguard funds at Fidelity.
One thing that humbles me deeply is to see that human genius has its limits while human stupidity does not. - Alexandre Dumas, fils
Topic Author
jarhead
Posts: 121
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Re: Made a horrible mistake with my retirement accounts

Post by jarhead »

deltaneutral83 wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:50 pm Curious OP, you joined BH in 2008 and were in index funds? What was the thought to move to Fisher after having been exposed to BH? I'd have been a made man by now if I had found BH in 2008. The mere sight of the TV ad's for those companies just makes me sick these days, probably more the whole life companies, but active mangers with high AUM too.
In one word... stupidity and belief that my brother knew more about investing :oops:
Luckywon
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Re: Made a horrible mistake with my retirement accounts

Post by Luckywon »

jarhead wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:58 pm
deltaneutral83 wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:50 pm Curious OP, you joined BH in 2008 and were in index funds? What was the thought to move to Fisher after having been exposed to BH? I'd have been a made man by now if I had found BH in 2008. The mere sight of the TV ad's for those companies just makes me sick these days, probably more the whole life companies, but active mangers with high AUM too.
In one word... stupidity and belief that my brother knew more about investing :oops:
Not to pile on, I'm genuinely curious-so then what suddenly made you realize this was a mistake?

If you switch back now, how much in fees will you have lost? If you switched recently, it can't be that bad. And if you recently purchased Fisher funds that can't be transferred in kind, the capital gains consequences selling after a short holding period probably won't be signficant. Maybe you'll even do some tax loss harvesting. :sharebeer
mkc
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Re: Made a horrible mistake with my retirement accounts

Post by mkc »

jarhead wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:42 pm
NotWhoYouThink wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:58 am Your desire to do something now to reverse this is understandable, but I advise you to wait just a bit. You don't seem ready to strike out on your own yet.

"Getting out of Fisher" is not a solution, and is just barely the start of a thought of a solution. First you need to figure out how you want your money invested and why. Leaving it at Fisher for another couple of weeks or a month is no big deal, you are putting together a plan that should take you through several decades.

There is a lot of great information on the wiki here, and plenty of helpful free advisors on this board. Put together a plan, bounce it against some of the posters here, refine it a couple of times, discuss it with your spouse.

Then move your money out of Fisher.

Good luck. You are ahead of all the people who haven't thought things through nearly as much as you have yet.
Moving the accounts out of Fisher will probably take a couple of weeks as I am sure they will be dragging their feet.
For my retirement accounts, the plan is to go back to a 3-fund type portfolio that I had when my IRA account was with Vanguard. As far as the taxable account is concerned, I will bounce some ideas on this forum to get advice.
Since the Fisher account is currently with Fidelity, I will most likely leave the money with them and find the equivalent index funds.

I believe these are Vanguard's equivalents at Fidelity:
VTSAX = FZROX
VBTLX = FXNAX
VTIAX = FZILX
delamer wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:19 am Familiarize yourself with the Target Retirement and LifeStrategy funds offered Vanguard.

These are options based on low-cost index investing that reduce your inclination to tinker and second guess yourself.

Here are the links:

https://investor.vanguard.com/mutual-fu ... irement/#/

https://investor.vanguard.com/mutual-fu ... trategy/#/

I was looking at the LifeStrategy funds and VSMGX 60/40 split may be the one I would be interested in. Does Fidelity have something similar?
Not the Zero funds at Fidelity (the ones that start with "FZ") - those are proprietary and not appropriate in taxable

FSKAX is the VTSAX equivalent.
LeftCoastIV
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Re: Made a horrible mistake with my retirement accounts

Post by LeftCoastIV »

Has Fisher charged their first fee yet? My understanding is that they charge quarterly? If you notify immediately, perhaps you still have time to seek a pro-rata first fee adjustment.
tibbitts
Posts: 23728
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:50 pm

Re: Made a horrible mistake with my retirement accounts

Post by tibbitts »

delamer wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:52 pm
You always can buy Vanguard funds at Fidelity.
Well, you can always buy Vanguard ETFs at Fidelity. Whether it would be practical to buy Vanguard mutual funds at Fidelity might be a more complicated story.
Topic Author
jarhead
Posts: 121
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Re: Made a horrible mistake with my retirement accounts

Post by jarhead »

Luckywon wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 1:14 pm Not to pile on, I'm genuinely curious-so then what suddenly made you realize this was a mistake?

If you switch back now, how much in fees will you have lost? If you switched recently, it can't be that bad. And if you recently purchased Fisher funds that can't be transferred in kind, the capital gains consequences selling after a short holding period probably won't be significant. Maybe you'll even do some tax loss harvesting. :sharebeer
Pile on... I truly deserve it :)
I realized that it was a mistake after I received a couple of statements from Fisher and started second-guessing the move. The bottom line is I should not blindly listened to my brother and instead posted here for advice. Water under the bridge.
Since I switched to Fisher back in April of this year, the tax hit can't be that much.
virgingorda
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Location: New England

Re: Made a horrible mistake with my retirement accounts

Post by virgingorda »

jarhead wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 1:44 pm
Luckywon wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 1:14 pm Not to pile on, I'm genuinely curious-so then what suddenly made you realize this was a mistake?

If you switch back now, how much in fees will you have lost? If you switched recently, it can't be that bad. And if you recently purchased Fisher funds that can't be transferred in kind, the capital gains consequences selling after a short holding period probably won't be significant. Maybe you'll even do some tax loss harvesting. :sharebeer
Pile on... I truly deserve it :)
I realized that it was a mistake after I received a couple of statements from Fisher and started second-guessing the move. The bottom line is I should not blindly listened to my brother and instead posted here for advice. Water under the bridge.
Since I switched to Fisher back in April of this year, the tax hit can't be that much.
Aw, don't beat yourself up. I hope you are able to do an transfer without ever telling FIsher. Hopefully Fidelity can just move the funds. We went through this with Morgan Stanley a couple of years ago. (Fidelity->Morgan Stanley->Fidelity). Our Fidelity advisor was able to do an in-kind transfer. I asked if I should even mention it to the MS people we worked with, and he said a courtesy email would suffice. So I wrote one. I never even got a reply! Fingers crossed you have a similarly smooth non-event.
GaryA505
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Location: New Mexico

Re: Made a horrible mistake with my retirement accounts

Post by GaryA505 »

jarhead wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:52 pm
dbr wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:43 pm Did your brother explain what the fees would be? Presumably he believes the fees are worth it for better returns.
Yes, he did explain the fees and probably believes that it's worth the price.
You can fool all the people some of the time and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time.
Get most of it right and don't make any big mistakes. All else being equal, simpler is better. Simple is as simple does.
Topic Author
jarhead
Posts: 121
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:55 am

Re: Made a horrible mistake with my retirement accounts

Post by jarhead »

virgingorda wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:02 pm
jarhead wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 1:44 pm
Luckywon wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 1:14 pm Not to pile on, I'm genuinely curious-so then what suddenly made you realize this was a mistake?

If you switch back now, how much in fees will you have lost? If you switched recently, it can't be that bad. And if you recently purchased Fisher funds that can't be transferred in kind, the capital gains consequences selling after a short holding period probably won't be significant. Maybe you'll even do some tax loss harvesting. :sharebeer
Pile on... I truly deserve it :)
I realized that it was a mistake after I received a couple of statements from Fisher and started second-guessing the move. The bottom line is I should not blindly listened to my brother and instead posted here for advice. Water under the bridge.
Since I switched to Fisher back in April of this year, the tax hit can't be that much.
Aw, don't beat yourself up. I hope you are able to do an transfer without ever telling FIsher. Hopefully Fidelity can just move the funds. We went through this with Morgan Stanley a couple of years ago. (Fidelity->Morgan Stanley->Fidelity). Our Fidelity advisor was able to do an in-kind transfer. I asked if I should even mention it to the MS people we worked with, and he said a courtesy email would suffice. So I wrote one. I never even got a reply! Fingers crossed you have a similarly smooth non-event.
I sent an email this morning about my plan to dump them I just got a call from my advisor asking me where they've gone wrong and what they can do to keep me. I just told them straight out that their fees is where they've gone wrong. They tried their scare tactics that I will not know what to do during the bear market and can lose a big %-age of my portfolio. In the end I said thanks, but no thanks and they will decouple themselves from the Fidelity account.
GaryA505
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Location: New Mexico

Re: Made a horrible mistake with my retirement accounts

Post by GaryA505 »

jarhead wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:25 pm
virgingorda wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:02 pm
jarhead wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 1:44 pm
Luckywon wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 1:14 pm Not to pile on, I'm genuinely curious-so then what suddenly made you realize this was a mistake?

If you switch back now, how much in fees will you have lost? If you switched recently, it can't be that bad. And if you recently purchased Fisher funds that can't be transferred in kind, the capital gains consequences selling after a short holding period probably won't be significant. Maybe you'll even do some tax loss harvesting. :sharebeer
Pile on... I truly deserve it :)
I realized that it was a mistake after I received a couple of statements from Fisher and started second-guessing the move. The bottom line is I should not blindly listened to my brother and instead posted here for advice. Water under the bridge.
Since I switched to Fisher back in April of this year, the tax hit can't be that much.
Aw, don't beat yourself up. I hope you are able to do an transfer without ever telling FIsher. Hopefully Fidelity can just move the funds. We went through this with Morgan Stanley a couple of years ago. (Fidelity->Morgan Stanley->Fidelity). Our Fidelity advisor was able to do an in-kind transfer. I asked if I should even mention it to the MS people we worked with, and he said a courtesy email would suffice. So I wrote one. I never even got a reply! Fingers crossed you have a similarly smooth non-event.
I sent an email this morning about my plan to dump them I just got a call from my advisor asking me where they've gone wrong and what they can do to keep me. I just told them straight out that their fees is where they've gone wrong. They tried their scare tactics that I will not know what to do during the bear market and can lose a big %-age of my portfolio. In the end I said thanks, but no thanks and they will decouple themselves from the Fidelity account.
They can't predict a bear market any better than anyone else can, which is almost never.
Get most of it right and don't make any big mistakes. All else being equal, simpler is better. Simple is as simple does.
NotWhoYouThink
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Re: Made a horrible mistake with my retirement accounts

Post by NotWhoYouThink »

It may well be worth the price to your brother, if he would otherwise be undisciplined with his investments. Paying 1-1.5% for a decent plan is much worse than paying 0.03-0.1% for an appropriately diversified index fund mix, but is 1000 times better than stock picking, market timing, and keeping everything in cash during periods of high inflation out of fear.

You don't seem to need what Fisher is selling. Others may. And yes, Vanguard sells better plans for less (PAS), but not everyone can turn things over to an online advisor, some need "a guy."
deltaneutral83
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Re: Made a horrible mistake with my retirement accounts

Post by deltaneutral83 »

jarhead wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:25 pm I sent an email this morning about my plan to dump them I just got a call from my advisor asking me where they've gone wrong and what they can do to keep me. I just told them straight out that their fees is where they've gone wrong. They tried their scare tactics that I will not know what to do during the bear market and can lose a big %-age of my portfolio. In the end I said thanks, but no thanks and they will decouple themselves from the Fidelity account.
I would have just loved to have been in a room with C suites 10-20 years ago where they were tossing around objections from the clients seeking DIY index fund portfolios and how to overcome them. "Let's just make up stuff about bear markets"..."let's compare our best performing fund the last decade to the S&P and throw it in a Powerpoint, and while we're at it, don't include dividends for the S&P" ....."we've got brand new research tools on the horizon (subscription to Motely Fool) and we are going to trounce the S&P the next 5 years"
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