Default Boglehead brokerage/ investment option now that Vanguard abandoned Bogle?

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Topic Author
kiddoc
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Default Boglehead brokerage/ investment option now that Vanguard abandoned Bogle?

Post by kiddoc »

For my 8 years of serious investing, I have recommended Vanguard as the default investment firm to friends and family.I have felt their index funds, target-date funds and ETFs were top notch, low-cost, and very "Bogleheaded".

I stopped recommending them as a brokerage after experiencing extremely poor customer service and started saying, "you can use Vanguard but I think Fidelity or Schwab are better brokerages; try to buy Vanguard ETFs there and neglect any marketing you get".

Then Vanguard came out with this disastrous app and I started saying "actively avoid Vanguard brokerage, especially if you have a taxable account and/or tax-loss harvest on the app".

Now, I recently reviewed how they keep changing the recommended investment mix (domestic: international, now adding large chunks of active funds and private equity to their offerings), including target-date funds. This is no longer a firm I can be proud of being an "owner-investor" in. They abandoned the first 3 of Jack Bogle's principles as I understood them:

Keep it simple
Buy the market (index). Don't try to beat it.
Stay the course
Diversify
Keep costs low

Action item questions:
1. With Vanguard making some dubious decisions, do we expect their index fund option tracking errors to go up? Is there a gold standard website that automatically calculates and compares tracking error between index funds? I view this as the largest cost to indexing these days rather than expense ratios. I would abandon Vanguard investments if their index tracking error starts going up compared to other companies.

2. What is the default brokerage/ investment recommendation you provide to a friend/family member who self manages? I think Vanguard is still the better package in advisor-driven management due to lower cost.

3. For middle to advanced age family with little investing knowledge, which investment firm do you recommend that stays the course and won't change target-date fund asset allocation from time to time? My parents and elder siblings invested in Vanguard funds after discussing with me and I want to make sure there is no bait-and-switch. WIll Vanguard change their current allocation or just create new funds with active private equity offerings?

4. Is there any way we "owner-investors" can get ourselves heard and tell the current management team that we don't support straying so far from Jack's principles?

Thanks.
"The four most dangerous words in investing are: 'this time it's different.'" - Sir John Templeton
bhsince87
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Re: Default Boglehead brokerage/ investment option now that Vanguard abandoned Bogle?

Post by bhsince87 »

I'm not sure I understand.

Which of these are you unable to do at Vanguard now?

Keep it simple
Buy the market (index). Don't try to beat it.
Stay the course
Diversify
Keep costs low
Time is what we want most, but what we use worst. William Penn
000
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Re: Default Boglehead brokerage/ investment option now that Vanguard abandoned Bogle?

Post by 000 »

I am considering completely divesting from Vanguard products too.

1. Probably not, but who knows.

2. If someone asked me I would say Fidelity or Schwab index funds.

3. See #2.

4. Nope. Vanguard is captured. We are not in control of the ship. Like so many other things it may simply have been a trick from the very beginning.
Last edited by 000 on Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Topic Author
kiddoc
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Re: Default Boglehead brokerage/ investment option now that Vanguard abandoned Bogle?

Post by kiddoc »

bhsince87 wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:58 pm I'm not sure I understand.

Which of these are you unable to do at Vanguard now?

Keep it simple
Buy the market (index). Don't try to beat it.
Stay the course
Diversify
Keep costs low
The first three if someone uses target date funds and they add 30% private equity/ active funds as their management has implied.
Also, it is impossible to sell anything in a taxable account in a financially responsible manner on their mobile app as they stopped displaying specific tax lots or cost basis.
"The four most dangerous words in investing are: 'this time it's different.'" - Sir John Templeton
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anon_investor
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Re: Default Boglehead brokerage/ investment option now that Vanguard abandoned Bogle?

Post by anon_investor »

kiddoc wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:54 pm For my 8 years of serious investing, I have recommended Vanguard as the default investment firm to friends and family.I have felt their index funds, target-date funds and ETFs were top notch, low-cost, and very "Bogleheaded".

I stopped recommending them as a brokerage after experiencing extremely poor customer service and started saying, "you can use Vanguard but I think Fidelity or Schwab are better brokerages; try to buy Vanguard ETFs there and neglect any marketing you get".

Then Vanguard came out with this disastrous app and I started saying "actively avoid Vanguard brokerage, especially if you have a taxable account and/or tax-loss harvest on the app".

Now, I recently reviewed how they keep changing the recommended investment mix (domestic: international, now adding large chunks of active funds and private equity to their offerings), including target-date funds. This is no longer a firm I can be proud of being an "owner-investor" in. They abandoned the first 3 of Jack Bogle's principles as I understood them:

Keep it simple
Buy the market (index). Don't try to beat it.
Stay the course
Diversify
Keep costs low

Action item questions:
1. With Vanguard making some dubious decisions, do we expect their index fund option tracking errors to go up? Is there a gold standard website that automatically calculates and compares tracking error between index funds? I view this as the largest cost to indexing these days rather than expense ratios. I would abandon Vanguard investments if their index tracking error starts going up compared to other companies.

2. What is the default brokerage/ investment recommendation you provide to a friend/family member who self manages? I think Vanguard is still the better package in advisor-driven management due to lower cost.

3. For middle to advanced age family with little investing knowledge, which investment firm do you recommend that stays the course and won't change target-date fund asset allocation from time to time? My parents and elder siblings invested in Vanguard funds after discussing with me and I want to make sure there is no bait-and-switch. WIll Vanguard change their current allocation or just create new funds with active private equity offerings?

4. Is there any way we "owner-investors" can get ourselves heard and tell the current management team that we don't support straying so far from Jack's principles?

Thanks.
I have been with Vanguard 20+ years. I have been testing out Fidelity (taxable account), pretty happy so far, being able to buy VTI by $ amount seems easier for me. I buy twice a month. I think Fidelity is my backup if Vanguard falters.
tibbitts
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Re: Default Boglehead brokerage/ investment option now that Vanguard abandoned Bogle?

Post by tibbitts »

I'm unaware of any issues with Vanguard index fund tracking errors. Examples?
AlohaJoe
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Re: Default Boglehead brokerage/ investment option now that Vanguard abandoned Bogle?

Post by AlohaJoe »

kiddoc wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:54 pm 1. With Vanguard making some dubious decisions, do we expect their index fund option tracking errors to go up? Is there a gold standard website that automatically calculates and compares tracking error between index funds? I view this as the largest cost to indexing these days rather than expense ratios. I would abandon Vanguard investments if their index tracking error starts going up compared to other companies.
No, we don't expect their tracking errors to go up. Making a bad mobile app has nothing to do with portfolio management.

If you want to know tracking error, just look at the fund's page. Every fund on the planet lists its tracking error. It isn't very much work to look at the three or four S&P 500 ETFs and then decide whether you think the tracking error at Vanguard is too high. I'm not sure why you think you need a website to do this comparison for you.
2. What is the default brokerage/ investment recommendation you provide to a friend/family member who self manages?
I tell them it doesn't matter. All 5-10 of the top brokerages are 95% interchangeable. People are happy and unhappy with all of them. And changing brokerages takes about 5 minutes of work online. It isn't hard.
Topic Author
kiddoc
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Re: Default Boglehead brokerage/ investment option now that Vanguard abandoned Bogle?

Post by kiddoc »

AlohaJoe wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:19 pm
If you want to know tracking error, just look at the fund's page.
I did, and ended up being confused. I am not that sophisticated in this analysis, so didn't know if they should report/look at total return, NAV or something else. That's why I am looking for a gold standard website that uses best practice, whatever it is. Basically a morningstar for tracking error in total return. Maybe it is possible in morningstar. If so, please let me know how. Thanks.
"The four most dangerous words in investing are: 'this time it's different.'" - Sir John Templeton
Topic Author
kiddoc
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Re: Default Boglehead brokerage/ investment option now that Vanguard abandoned Bogle?

Post by kiddoc »

tibbitts wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:19 pm I'm unaware of any issues with Vanguard index fund tracking errors. Examples?
I am unaware because I don't know how to best measure and compare it. Is there a best practice and a website that does it? To a relatively dumb investor like me, various brokerages can fudge how they present benchmark data and possibly change the tracking error.
"The four most dangerous words in investing are: 'this time it's different.'" - Sir John Templeton
almostretired1965
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Re: Default Boglehead brokerage/ investment option now that Vanguard abandoned Bogle?

Post by almostretired1965 »

I have not moved anything out of Vanguard yet and have yet to experience a really negative interaction. However, I agree with the general assessment that the quality of their service is now clearly sub par compared to some competitors. In the past, I have always tried to consolidate retirement accounts at Vanguard upon leaving an employer, but I will not be doing that in the future. I have also stopped moving proceeds from RSU sales, which is the bulk of my savings from wage income, to Vanguard. Instead leaving it at Fidelity, reinvested In a non Vanguard etf.

At least for now, I am not willing to go through the hassle of moving everything out of Vanguard. I will not, however, be moving more assets their way in the future.
Bama12
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Re: Default Boglehead brokerage/ investment option now that Vanguard abandoned Bogle?

Post by Bama12 »

This board should be renamed to I hate Vanguard.

I don't understand why we get daily post about Vanguard. If you all keep it simple like you say then Vanguard is great.
tibbitts
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Re: Default Boglehead brokerage/ investment option now that Vanguard abandoned Bogle?

Post by tibbitts »

kiddoc wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:32 pm
tibbitts wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:19 pm I'm unaware of any issues with Vanguard index fund tracking errors. Examples?
I am unaware because I don't know how to best measure and compare it. Is there a best practice and a website that does it? To a relatively dumb investor like me, various brokerages can fudge how they present benchmark data and possibly change the tracking error.
I'm not aware of any website that does this because every fund reports performance against its benchmark. Fund reporting is regulated so no I don't believe brokerages can "fudge" how funds provide benchmark data. Now, for active funds you might disagree with the benchmark chosen for the fund, and for an index fund you might disagree with the index chosen for the fund, but those are separate issue. And yes tracking error can occur - but you don't seem to be bothered that back in the "good Vanguard" era, Total Bond Market ran off the rails relative to its benchmark. I'm not aware of any similar episodes in the more recent "evil Vanguard" era. Are you aware that not that many years ago, Vanguard advisers enthusiastically pushed active funds (notably Diversified Equity) to investors, vs. the generally all-index portfolios they've been promoting for the last few years? While we've read about new alternative "Select" investments that will be available to PAS clients, the only reports I've read on the forum so far have suggested that the typical PAS customer won't necessarily be encouraged to purchase them. Were you concerned that the first Vanguard fund - from the actual Bogle era - that could probably be considered somewhat similar to today's single-fund retirement fund solutions, STAR, was/is an entirely actively managed fund?
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Re: Default Boglehead brokerage/ investment option now that Vanguard abandoned Bogle?

Post by AlohaJoe »

kiddoc wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:27 pm
AlohaJoe wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:19 pm
If you want to know tracking error, just look at the fund's page.
I did, and ended up being confused. I am not that sophisticated in this analysis, so didn't know if they should report/look at total return, NAV or something else.
I don't know what you're looking at.

This is very top of the page for VTI:

Image

It shows you what the fund actually did and what the index did. The difference between the two is the tracking error.
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kiddoc
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Re: Default Boglehead brokerage/ investment option now that Vanguard abandoned Bogle?

Post by kiddoc »

Bama12 wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:48 pm This board should be renamed to I hate Vanguard.

I don't understand why we get daily post about Vanguard. If you all keep it simple like you say then Vanguard is great.
Thank you. Can you please explain how to keep it simple in a taxable vanguard account and tax-loss harvest a 3-ETF portfolio using their app? I will be very thankful and stop hating Vanguard 50%. I don't want to use a workplace computer to log into their website to do this and their app doesn't show tax lots. I hope I just missed something and Vanguard is as great as you say they are. I hope tax-loss harvesting didn't become too complicated to fit into the definition of simplicity for Bogleheads.
Last edited by kiddoc on Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
"The four most dangerous words in investing are: 'this time it's different.'" - Sir John Templeton
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kiddoc
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Re: Default Boglehead brokerage/ investment option now that Vanguard abandoned Bogle?

Post by kiddoc »

To everyone showing the tracking error from Vanguard's website: It is very reassuring if that is regulated as those numbers are negligible. I was not aware this is regulated and everyone has to report standard numbers using best practices for total returns. Does this regulation apply for every brokerage?
"The four most dangerous words in investing are: 'this time it's different.'" - Sir John Templeton
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Cheez-It Guy
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Re: Default Boglehead brokerage/ investment option now that Vanguard abandoned Bogle?

Post by Cheez-It Guy »

When did Vanguard say they were going to add both active and private equity to Target Date and Life Strategy funds? They DID announce that they would be reducing the expense ratio:

https://www.mymoneyblog.com/vanguard-ta ... -2022.html

As for changing the ratio among the 4 key holdings, the relative market cap moves, and they also do academic research to arrive at their holding percentages. If you don't like the changes, exit the products. I decided I didn't want international. I no longer use Target Retirement or Life Strategy funds. You can use Vanguard Balanced Index if you want.

I kept the old Vanguard app by turning off automatic updates, but if you don't want to use a company computer to log in, you can create a shortcut to the Vanguard mobile login page that will appear as an app tile. Decent improvised fix. This is one detriment to using ETFs -- that you have to work with them during the trading day exclusively. You can automate mutual fund buys very easily.
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anon_investor
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Re: Default Boglehead brokerage/ investment option now that Vanguard abandoned Bogle?

Post by anon_investor »

kiddoc wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:23 am
Bama12 wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:48 pm This board should be renamed to I hate Vanguard.

I don't understand why we get daily post about Vanguard. If you all keep it simple like you say then Vanguard is great.
Thank you. Can you please explain how to keep it simple in a taxable vanguard account and tax-loss harvest a 3-ETF portfolio using their app? I will be very thankful and stop hating Vanguard 50%. I don't want to use a workplace computer to log into their website to do this and their app doesn't show tax lots. I hope I just missed something and Vanguard is as great as you say they are. I hope tax-loss harvesting didn't become too complicated to fit into the definition of simplicity for Bogleheads.
You can't TLH at all with the new Vanguard app (with MF or ETF. This is because you can no longer see the cost basis of individual tax lots. To do this you would need to use a web browser. You can see the cost basis of individual tax lots on the Fidelity app.
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JoMoney
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Re: Default Boglehead brokerage/ investment option now that Vanguard abandoned Bogle?

Post by JoMoney »

I would still recommend Vanguard. If you don't like their app, I'm with you. I think "apps" are pretty dumb to being with it. It should just be a web page, but even without a web page, I would still recommend Vanguard if you could only transact through the mail. That's all that's needed. It shouldn't be necessary to look at your statement more than once a month or so.
"To achieve satisfactory investment results is easier than most people realize; to achieve superior results is harder than it looks." - Benjamin Graham
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Re: Default Boglehead brokerage/ investment option now that Vanguard abandoned Bogle?

Post by jebmke »

so far I have seen posts with anecdotal information on VG customer service but I've never seen systematic data that compares it to the other companies.

As far as friends/family, I avoid discussing finances with all of them. In fact, it almost never comes up in conversation except for sporadic tax questions (they know I am a volunteer tax preparer with TaxAide). IMO there is little upside and considerable downside to getting involved with the financial life of family, friends and colleagues.
Don't trust me, look it up. https://www.irs.gov/forms-instructions-and-publications
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Re: Default Boglehead brokerage/ investment option now that Vanguard abandoned Bogle?

Post by JS-Elcano »

kiddoc wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:23 am
Bama12 wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:48 pm This board should be renamed to I hate Vanguard.

I don't understand why we get daily post about Vanguard. If you all keep it simple like you say then Vanguard is great.
Thank you. Can you please explain how to keep it simple in a taxable vanguard account and tax-loss harvest a 3-ETF portfolio using their app? I will be very thankful and stop hating Vanguard 50%. I don't want to use a workplace computer to log into their website to do this and their app doesn't show tax lots. I hope I just missed something and Vanguard is as great as you say they are. I hope tax-loss harvesting didn't become too complicated to fit into the definition of simplicity for Bogleheads.
You can just pull up their website on your phone and TLH there. No need to use the app. It's a bit cumbersome, but definitely doable.
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Re: Default Boglehead brokerage/ investment option now that Vanguard abandoned Bogle?

Post by bertilak »

jebmke wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 7:54 am so far I have seen posts with anecdotal information on VG customer service but I've never seen systematic data that compares it to the other companies.
See JD Power's investor satisfaction survey. Botom line:
  • Vanguard (736) ranks highest in self-directed investor satisfaction among investors seeking guidance.
  • Vanguard (736) ranks highest in self-directed investor satisfaction among do-it-yourself investors.
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bondsr4me
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Re: Default Boglehead brokerage/ investment option now that Vanguard abandoned Bogle?

Post by bondsr4me »

Bama12 wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:48 pm This board should be renamed to I hate Vanguard.

I don't understand why we get daily post about Vanguard. If you all keep it simple like you say then Vanguard is great.
:happy
jebmke
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Re: Default Boglehead brokerage/ investment option now that Vanguard abandoned Bogle?

Post by jebmke »

bertilak wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 8:07 am
jebmke wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 7:54 am so far I have seen posts with anecdotal information on VG customer service but I've never seen systematic data that compares it to the other companies.
See JD Power's investor satisfaction survey. Botom line:
  • Vanguard (736) ranks highest in self-directed investor satisfaction among investors seeking guidance.
  • Vanguard (736) ranks highest in self-directed investor satisfaction among do-it-yourself investors.
so it seems that the complaint posts on this forum are just the louder minority.
Don't trust me, look it up. https://www.irs.gov/forms-instructions-and-publications
dcare
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Re: Default Boglehead brokerage/ investment option now that Vanguard abandoned Bogle?

Post by dcare »

I agree!!
afan
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Re: Default Boglehead brokerage/ investment option now that Vanguard abandoned Bogle?

Post by afan »

If you want control over which investments you hold, then do not use a target date fund. Simple.

If you do want a TDF, then presumably you will not be doing TLH.

If you want to do TLH then you can do it before or after work for mutual funds. You can use the web browser to do it with mutual funds or etfs during working hours. You can place your etf orders before or after work for execution when the market opens.

I was excited when I could first set up automatic purchases into Vanguard funds via ACH, rather than having to mail a check. Definitely better than using the mail but hardly the most important thing.

I believe both Vanguard and Morningstar report the R2 of funds vs their benchmarks. The Vanguard index funds are essentially perfect.

For admiral class funds and the etfs, the security lending net revenue about cancels the expense ratio and the funds are close to free.

The only people who should care about the active equity fund news and PE are those considering PAS. I would not pay someone to hold a 3-fund portfolio of index funds. I certainly would not pay someone to juggle 6-10 different funds, shifting asset allocations and mixing in active and private equity. Therefore, I would never sign up for PAS and I don't care what they would do.

I am sticking with Vanguard. They do all the things I need them to do. Deliver low cost high quality cap weighted index funds. If you want more bells and whistles, if you want to actively trade from your phone, if you want an office where you can have a cup of coffee, watch CNBC and talk with someone paid to sit there and listen, then do not use Vanguard.

Vanguard is the industry leader in customer satisfaction.
We don't know how to beat the market on a risk-adjusted basis, and we don't know anyone that does know either | --Swedroe | We assume that markets are efficient, that prices are right | --Fama
afan
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Re: Default Boglehead brokerage/ investment option now that Vanguard abandoned Bogle?

Post by afan »

bertilak wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 8:07 am
jebmke wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 7:54 am so far I have seen posts with anecdotal information on VG customer service but I've never seen systematic data that compares it to the other companies.
See JD Power's investor satisfaction survey. Botom line:
  • Vanguard (736) ranks highest in self-directed investor satisfaction among investors seeking guidance.
  • Vanguard (736) ranks highest in self-directed investor satisfaction among do-it-yourself investors.
The JDPower survey is the only systematic information of which I am aware. I have asked in these threads for any other evidence

The response from the Vanguard bashers has been "My mind is made up. Don't confuse me with the facts."

If ANYONE, happy client or Vanguard hater, has any other data on customer satisfaction, please cite it
We don't know how to beat the market on a risk-adjusted basis, and we don't know anyone that does know either | --Swedroe | We assume that markets are efficient, that prices are right | --Fama
bondsr4me
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Re: Default Boglehead brokerage/ investment option now that Vanguard abandoned Bogle?

Post by bondsr4me »

afan wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:07 am If you want control over which investments you hold, then do not use a target date fund. Simple.

If you do want a TDF, then presumably you will not be doing TLH.

If you want to do TLH then you can do it before or after work for mutual funds. You can use the web browser to do it with mutual funds or etfs during working hours. You can place your etf orders before or after work for execution when the market opens.

I was excited when I could first set up automatic purchases into Vanguard funds via ACH, rather than having to mail a check. Definitely better than using the mail but hardly the most important thing.

I believe both Vanguard and Morningstar report the R2 of funds vs their benchmarks. The Vanguard index funds are essentially perfect.

For admiral class funds and the etfs, the security lending net revenue about cancels the expense ratio and the funds are close to free.

The only people who should care about the active equity fund news and PE are those considering PAS. I would not pay someone to hold a 3-fund portfolio of index funds. I certainly would not pay someone to juggle 6-10 different funds, shifting asset allocations and mixing in active and private equity. Therefore, I would never sign up for PAS and I don't care what they would do.

I am sticking with Vanguard. They do all the things I need them to do. Deliver low cost high quality cap weighted index funds. If you want more bells and whistles, if you want to actively trade from your phone, if you want an office where you can have a cup of coffee, watch CNBC and talk with someone paid to sit there and listen, then do not use Vanguard.

Vanguard is the industry leader in customer satisfaction.
:sharebeer
6NDone
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Re: Default Boglehead brokerage/ investment option now that Vanguard abandoned Bogle?

Post by 6NDone »

I recently opened Schwab and Fidelity accounts to compare to Vanguard which I've been using for many years. Here are my findings:

Schwab Pros: customer service so far is great, and I even received a welcome call after I opened my account. I feel confident in Schwab handling my money. The site is clean and easy to use.

Schwab Cons: Personal performance on the site is not as easy to track as Vanguard and it doesn't allow for toggling between contributions and performance over time (minor con).


Fidelity Benefits: customer service is satisfactory; fractional ETFs are great.

Fidelity Cons: The website is a nightmare. I am not sure what people see in Fidelity's interface, but I cannot find anything I am looking for without a lot of trial and error or Googling. Additionally, the logistics of the CMAs are not logical or straight forward. For example, having one CMA provide overdraft protection to two other CMAs is not possible, you can only link one CMA to another at a time (Ally allows this with ease). I will not be using Fidelity as my main due to the the complexity and confusing nature of the site.


Cons of both Fidelity and Schwab: it is not as easy to be a Boglehead. With Vanguard I can set up automatic investments at ANY interval I like, specifically on my biweekly paydays and never have to worry about it again. Schwab and Fidelity give you monthly and quarterly options :| . Granted, you could set up two monthly automatic investments to simulate biweekly schedule, but this will quickly get out of sync with my pay schedule. The funds at Fidelity and Schwab are also inferior to Vanguards; you can debate this all day, but FSKAX and SWTSX do not out perform VTSAX in backtests, and while it may be by a few hundred dollars a year on a $1M+ portfolio, those are still dollars I'd rather keep.


My plan -- sticking with Vanguard until retirement. Vanguard serves all my needs as a passive investor during the accumulation phase. When it's time to retire, I may switch to Schwab just to consolidate all accounts and banking into one. But for now, Vanguard simply cannot be beat for a hands off, passive investment strategy. And the Vanguard website is simply the best to use and has everything you need at a few clicks; if someone were a passive investor I can see how it might seem limiting, but for simple index investing I don't know what more people want from Vanguard's site. The app is a different story, but just use the app for full functionality.
Last edited by 6NDone on Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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jebmke
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Re: Default Boglehead brokerage/ investment option now that Vanguard abandoned Bogle?

Post by jebmke »

6NDone wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:48 am I even received a welcome call after I opened my account.
That's a bummer. It took me two years to convince my Flagship rep not to call me and take me off their email list.
Don't trust me, look it up. https://www.irs.gov/forms-instructions-and-publications
6NDone
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Re: Default Boglehead brokerage/ investment option now that Vanguard abandoned Bogle?

Post by 6NDone »

jebmke wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:51 am
6NDone wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:48 am I even received a welcome call after I opened my account.
That's a bummer. It took me two years to convince my Flagship rep not to call me and take me off their email list.
To get off of any Vanguard email list (or any other email list), you do know there is a simple toggle in every account to opt of promotional calls/emails, right? You can do this directly in your account, and/or at the bottom of the email there is an "unsubscribe" link. No need to talk to someone to stop receiving marketing calls and emails.
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Re: Default Boglehead brokerage/ investment option now that Vanguard abandoned Bogle?

Post by jebmke »

6NDone wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:53 am
jebmke wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:51 am
6NDone wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:48 am I even received a welcome call after I opened my account.
That's a bummer. It took me two years to convince my Flagship rep not to call me and take me off their email list.
To get off of any Vanguard email list (or any other email list), you do know there is a simple toggle in every account to opt of promotional calls/emails, right? You can do this directly in your account, and/or at the bottom of the email there is an "unsubscribe" link. No need to talk to someone to stop receiving marketing calls and emails.
How long has that been around? I've been with VG for over 20 years so this call took place a long time ago.

I spend very little time on their site; once a month.
Don't trust me, look it up. https://www.irs.gov/forms-instructions-and-publications
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Re: Default Boglehead brokerage/ investment option now that Vanguard abandoned Bogle?

Post by burritoLover »

What exactly are they doing or plan to do to their TDFs?
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Re: Default Boglehead brokerage/ investment option now that Vanguard abandoned Bogle?

Post by delamer »

There is value in having a local office that you can visit to help with financial transactions, especially when you are in retirement/elderly.

So as far as recommendations to your family/friends go, tell them Fidelity or Schwab if one of them has a local office.
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Re: Default Boglehead brokerage/ investment option now that Vanguard abandoned Bogle?

Post by aristotelian »

I do think it is pretty embarrassing to Vanguard that they messed up their target date allocations. That said, my impression was it was a simple mistake, not a major change in philosophy or attempt to time the market, if that's what you are implying. You can still get passive products at low cost as Bogle advocated. I am not at all partial to Vanguard but I would not change for the reason stated. I do think Fidelity and Schwab are terrific for most use cases and have better customer service.
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Re: Default Boglehead brokerage/ investment option now that Vanguard abandoned Bogle?

Post by nisiprius »

Don't invest based on emotion, and that includes emotional reactions to what we, yes, I'll say "we," perceive might be happening at Vanguard.

Don't do anything to teach them a lesson or show them the error of their ways. Don't trouble trouble till trouble troubles you. Don't cross any bridges until you come to them.

You could manage to go through a lot of irritation and possible glitches to switch brokerages and discover afterwards that you were jumping out of the frying pan and into another very similar frying pan.

I am sticking with Vanguard until I personally run encounter something bad enough to make me leave. That hasn't happened yet. My guess is it never will. And my reason for staying until then is:

Zippy the Pinhead: Nothing Could Be Finer
Griffy: "Zippy, if you could live anywhere in the world, where would you live?"
Zippy: "Albany."
Griffy: "Albany?"
Zippy: "Albany."
Griffy: "Why Albany?"
Zippy: "Because I'm in Albany."
For various featherweight and subjective reasons, my default suggestion if asked for advice would be Fidelity. Followup questions, given Fidelity as the brokerage, would probably lead to Fidelity products rather than Vanguard ETFs.
Last edited by nisiprius on Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:49 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Default Boglehead brokerage/ investment option now that Vanguard abandoned Bogle?

Post by mikejuss »

kiddoc wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:04 pm
bhsince87 wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:58 pm I'm not sure I understand.

Which of these are you unable to do at Vanguard now?

Keep it simple
Buy the market (index). Don't try to beat it.
Stay the course
Diversify
Keep costs low
The first three if someone uses target date funds and they add 30% private equity/ active funds as their management has implied.
Also, it is impossible to sell anything in a taxable account in a financially responsible manner on their mobile app as they stopped displaying specific tax lots or cost basis.
I believe that this is a misconception: those who do not want a private-equity component to their target-date funds do not have to have one.
50% VTSAX | 25% VTIAX | 25% VBTLX (retirement), 25% VTEAX (taxable)
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Re: Default Boglehead brokerage/ investment option now that Vanguard abandoned Bogle?

Post by nalor511 »

I split funds between Fido and Schwab (6mo? ago) so that I could try both, and see what annoyances I might find at each. I found that I slightly prefer Fidelity.

Fido likes:
-interface
-live assistant thing
-almost all forms are fully online
-NO transfer-out fee if I decide to leave Fido at a later time
-I like Fidelity's strict adherence to policy, even when it does not work in my favor, something I can respect

Schwab likes:
-they worked really hard for my business making sure I had what I wanted (transfer bonus, fee waivers, PAL rate)

Like at both:
-live chat
-secure email.
-local office for my heirs or unforseen complex situations
-transfer out from VG fully online, no human interaction (except transfer bonus, fee waiver, arranged via email)
-Neither one bothers me with marketing (but in fairness I did let them know up front that I am busy and prefer not to be bothered).
Last edited by nalor511 on Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Default Boglehead brokerage/ investment option now that Vanguard abandoned Bogle?

Post by bondsr4me »

delamer wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:47 am There is value in having a local office that you can visit to help with financial transactions, especially when you are in retirement/elderly.

So as far as recommendations to your family/friends go, tell them Fidelity or Schwab if one of them has a local office.
+1
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Re: Default Boglehead brokerage/ investment option now that Vanguard abandoned Bogle?

Post by bondsr4me »

nisiprius wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:13 pm Don't invest based on emotion, and that includes emotional reactions to what we, yes, I'll say "we," perceive might be happening at Vanguard.

Don't do anything to teach them a lesson or show them the error of their ways. Don't trouble trouble till trouble troubles you. Don't cross any bridges until you come to them.

You could manage to go through a lot of irritation and possible glitches to switch brokerages and discover afterwards that you were jumping out of the frying pan and into another very similar frying pan.

I am sticking with Vanguard until I personally run encounter something bad enough to make me leave. That hasn't happened yet. My guess is it never will. And my reason for staying until then is:

Zippy the Pinhead: Nothing Could Be Finder
Griffy: "Zippy, if you could live anywhere in the world, where would you live?"
Zippy: "Albany."
Griffy: "Albany?"
Zippy: "Albany."
Griffy: "Why Albany?"
Zippy: "Because I'm in Albany."
For various featherweight and subjective reasons, my default suggestion if asked for advice would be Fidelity. Followup questions, given Fidelity as the brokerage, would probably lead to Fidelity products rather than Vanguard ETFs.
+1...agree with above...
don't trouble trouble until trouble troubles you.
ie: don't follow the herd...you may get trampled!
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Re: Default Boglehead brokerage/ investment option now that Vanguard abandoned Bogle?

Post by nisiprius »

mikejuss wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:17 pm...I believe that this is a misconception: those who do not want a private-equity component to their target-date funds do not have to have one...
There was a very vague statement by Vanguard about a desire to offer private equity "in retirement accounts." I think the number 30%, or "as much as 30%," was bruited about. The impression I got from podcasts is that this is all very vague and future-oriented, and that for now they are trying some cautious small-scale experiments on offering... I dunno, something or other from Harbourvest... to high-net-worth clients, and some longer-term ideas about creating their own products or something.

I have not heard that they plan to offer private equity within their target date retirement funds at all, let alone any time soon.

Again, I see this as a cross-that-bridge-when-you-come-to-it. Something they might do five or ten years from now is not a reason to take action now. What's the nightmare scenario? You wake up one day and without notice and without any way to opt out, Vanguard has suddenly invested 30% of your target date fund into private equity, and the private equity component immediately crashes to zero before you can exchange out of the fund? Not likely.
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Re: Default Boglehead brokerage/ investment option now that Vanguard abandoned Bogle?

Post by donaldfair71 »

kiddoc wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:23 am
Bama12 wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:48 pm This board should be renamed to I hate Vanguard.

I don't understand why we get daily post about Vanguard. If you all keep it simple like you say then Vanguard is great.
Thank you. Can you please explain how to keep it simple in a taxable vanguard account and tax-loss harvest a 3-ETF portfolio using their app? I will be very thankful and stop hating Vanguard 50%. I don't want to use a workplace computer to log into their website to do this and their app doesn't show tax lots. I hope I just missed something and Vanguard is as great as you say they are. I hope tax-loss harvesting didn't become too complicated to fit into the definition of simplicity for Bogleheads.
On one hand, I think Vanguard is still a great company and I'm not really questioning it as many others do.

On the other hand, for younger cohorts much more likely to do everything by phone, I simply don't understand having any limitations in the app that the full site does not have. I noticed the tax lot issue last week. It's a head-scratcher, mainly because I would guess it's a needless limitation.
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Re: Default Boglehead brokerage/ investment option now that Vanguard abandoned Bogle?

Post by nordsteve »

Beware of the grass is greener feeling. For reference, I have personal accounts at Fidelity and Vanguard, as does my wife, and I manage my parents accounts at Schwab.

For active traders (like my parents), I think the Schwab app is best. The mobile apps of Fidelity and Vanguard support simple transactions, and seem primarily designed around "checking in on your account".

I don't really care that the Vanguard app is mediocre, but that's about me because I make maybe 2 transactions a year on that account.

Regarding customer service, I'm currently 30 minutes into a chat session with Fidelity to figure out why I can't select lots on a trade I want to make today. Oh, and like the Vanguard app, Fidelity's app doesn't support lot identification either.

Schwab recently screwed up setting me up on my parents accounts. They were quick to fix it when I called, though.

The point is that none of them are perfect, and you're dreaming if you think that switching means no problems.
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Re: Default Boglehead brokerage/ investment option now that Vanguard abandoned Bogle?

Post by magicrat »

kiddoc wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:23 am
Bama12 wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:48 pm This board should be renamed to I hate Vanguard.

I don't understand why we get daily post about Vanguard. If you all keep it simple like you say then Vanguard is great.
Thank you. Can you please explain how to keep it simple in a taxable vanguard account and tax-loss harvest a 3-ETF portfolio using their app? I will be very thankful and stop hating Vanguard 50%. I don't want to use a workplace computer to log into their website to do this and their app doesn't show tax lots. I hope I just missed something and Vanguard is as great as you say they are. I hope tax-loss harvesting didn't become too complicated to fit into the definition of simplicity for Bogleheads.
Go to vanguard.com in a mobile browser.
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kiddoc
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Re: Default Boglehead brokerage/ investment option now that Vanguard abandoned Bogle?

Post by kiddoc »

Thanks to all who responded. My conclusions:

1. Stick to Vanguard products as I have been. There is some sort of regulation (would appreciate direct link) that means no one can fudge tracking errors or substitute NAV for total return for index funds. So the Vanguard/Fidelity/ Schwab website tracking errors can be trusted.

2. Brokerages: To each their own. I may have a biased opinion based on n of 1. And probably because my taxable transactions are higher than the average Boglehead (less access to tax protected investments for various non-modifiable reasons).

3. Keep watching Vanguard's asset allocation as I do intend to make a transition to Target-date funds in the next 10 years once financially independent. No need to act on Vanguard's management statements about adding 30% private equity yet. I may switch my parents' retirement accounts to Fidelity target date funds to avoid surprises.

4. Owner-investors have no say at Vanguard.
"The four most dangerous words in investing are: 'this time it's different.'" - Sir John Templeton
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Re: Default Boglehead brokerage/ investment option now that Vanguard abandoned Bogle?

Post by Cheez-It Guy »

^What gives you confidence that Fidelity will not adjust their target date composition at some point?
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Re: Default Boglehead brokerage/ investment option now that Vanguard abandoned Bogle?

Post by anon_investor »

Cheez-It Guy wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:08 pm ^What gives you confidence that Fidelity will not adjust their target date composition at some point?
Fidelity has ALREADY adjusted their target date composition not that long ago by adding extra long term treasury bonds (more than total bond would normally hold).

Here is a recent Morning Star article about Vanguard/Fidelity/Schwab target date funds:
https://www.morningstar.com/articles/10 ... n-momentum
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Cheez-It Guy
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Re: Default Boglehead brokerage/ investment option now that Vanguard abandoned Bogle?

Post by Cheez-It Guy »

Exactly. They all adjust. And I'm not sure this is a bad thing for what the funds are supposed to be and do.
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Re: Default Boglehead brokerage/ investment option now that Vanguard abandoned Bogle?

Post by WoodSpinner »

aristotelian wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:08 pm I do think it is pretty embarrassing to Vanguard that they messed up their target date allocations. That said, my impression was it was a simple mistake, not a major change in philosophy or attempt to time the market, if that's what you are implying. You can still get passive products at low cost as Bogle advocated. I am not at all partial to Vanguard but I would not change for the reason stated. I do think Fidelity and Schwab are terrific for most use cases and have better customer service.
Huh? Has something happened? Or just a discussion of a future possible shift?
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Re: Default Boglehead brokerage/ investment option now that Vanguard abandoned Bogle?

Post by aristotelian »

WoodSpinner wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 7:39 pm
aristotelian wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:08 pm I do think it is pretty embarrassing to Vanguard that they messed up their target date allocations. That said, my impression was it was a simple mistake, not a major change in philosophy or attempt to time the market, if that's what you are implying. You can still get passive products at low cost as Bogle advocated. I am not at all partial to Vanguard but I would not change for the reason stated. I do think Fidelity and Schwab are terrific for most use cases and have better customer service.
Huh? Has something happened? Or just a discussion of a future possible shift?
Vanguard fell asleep and had their 529 allocations more aggressive than they were supposed to. Fortunately it was caught before the market crashed. I believe this is what OP is referring to.
https://www.morningstar.com/articles/10 ... -investors
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Re: Default Boglehead brokerage/ investment option now that Vanguard abandoned Bogle?

Post by afan »

Yet another reason not to use target date funds.
Remind me, what is good about them?
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