After tax contribution rolled over to where?...

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Johnsson
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After tax contribution rolled over to where?...

Post by Johnsson »

DW received a check for $3k (an after tax contribution) after her accounts were rolled over from her 401ks (pre-tax and Roth) to her IRAs.

She maxed out her Roth with $26k and overcontributed (this year) with the extra $3k placed as after-tax funds in her pre-tax IRA.

I believe this check can now be sent/deposited into her Roth IRA. However, we will have made to much income this year to qualify for regular Roth IRA contributions and I don't know if that impacts this move.

I want to do the correct this to avoid any kind of problems.

Is it correct that this check can be sent for deposit into her Roth IRA without any issues arising?
'In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.' Yogi Berra
MrJedi
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Re: After tax contribution rolled over to where?...

Post by MrJedi »

Roth IRA yes. Rollover contributions are separate from normal contributions and not subject to those IRA contribution income limits.
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Re: After tax contribution rolled over to where?...

Post by Johnsson »

MrJedi wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:29 am Roth IRA yes. Rollover contributions are separate from normal contributions and not subject to those IRA contribution income limits.
Thank you. From the 'Wiki' I verified the money is solely her contributions (not gains). Now I'm good to make the Roth deposit.

Thank you so much for your confirmation!!!
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retiredjg
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Re: After tax contribution rolled over to where?...

Post by retiredjg »

Johnsson wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:11 am DW received a check for $3k (an after tax contribution) after her accounts were rolled over from her 401ks (pre-tax and Roth) to her IRAs.

She maxed out her Roth with $26k and overcontributed (this year) with the extra $3k placed as after-tax funds in her pre-tax IRA.

I believe this check can now be sent/deposited into her Roth IRA. However, we will have made to much income this year to qualify for regular Roth IRA contributions and I don't know if that impacts this move.

I want to do the correct this to avoid any kind of problems.

Is it correct that this check can be sent for deposit into her Roth IRA without any issues arising?
This scenario sounds all wrong to me.

You said she over-contributed $3k and it went into "her pre-tax IRA". That's not possible, so let's get some kind of clarification on where that money actually went.

Does her 401k allow contributions to an after-tax account (not the same as a Roth 401k account)? If yes, it seems that money can go into her Roth IRA although some of it might be earnings....but if it can go into Roth IRA, why did the 401k company not send it to the Roth IRA along with the Roth 401k money?

If her 401k does not allow after-tax contributions, then she just over-contributed to Roth 401k and they are sending the money back to her because she was not eligible to put it in her 401k in the first place.

Surely she did not get a check for $3k with no description of what it was for or what she can do with it. Tell us about the information that came with the check. And who is the check made out to - your wife or your wife's Roth IRA custodian?
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Re: After tax contribution rolled over to where?...

Post by MrJedi »

I agree the wording is not clear.

I think you meant that the 3k went into the traditional 401k as after tax basis, though you said it went into pre tax IRA. Can you confirm this? If the check is the after tax basis from the 401k, this can go into the Roth IRA. Anything else needs clarification.
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Re: After tax contribution rolled over to where?...

Post by Johnsson »

retiredjg wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 2:03 pm
Johnsson wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:11 am DW received a check for $3k (an after tax contribution) after her accounts were rolled over from her 401ks (pre-tax and Roth) to her IRAs.

She maxed out her Roth with $26k and overcontributed (this year) with the extra $3k placed as after-tax funds in her pre-tax IRA.

I believe this check can now be sent/deposited into her Roth IRA. However, we will have made to much income this year to qualify for regular Roth IRA contributions and I don't know if that impacts this move.

I want to do the correct this to avoid any kind of problems.

Is it correct that this check can be sent for deposit into her Roth IRA without any issues arising?
This scenario sounds all wrong to me.

You said she over-contributed $3k and it went into "her pre-tax IRA". That's not possible, so let's get some kind of clarification on where that money actually went.

Does her 401k allow contributions to an after-tax account (not the same as a Roth 401k account)? If yes, it seems that money can go into her Roth IRA although some of it might be earnings....but if it can go into Roth IRA, why did the 401k company not send it to the Roth IRA along with the Roth 401k money?

If her 401k does not allow after-tax contributions, then she just over-contributed to Roth 401k and they are sending the money back to her because she was not eligible to put it in her 401k in the first place.

Surely she did not get a check for $3k with no description of what it was for or what she can do with it. Tell us about the information that came with the check. And who is the check made out to - your wife or your wife's Roth IRA custodian?
Sorry for the late response (we were away) and sorry for incorrect wording.

The specific line item from the 401k administrator reads... 401(a) After-Tax EE

She worked for a non-profit hospital (I don't know if that matters).

She grudgingly the called plan administrator Friday AM for details. The check provided was the after-tax contribution (only) amount to the pre-tax 401k. Earnings from that investment were included in the pre-tax roll-over.

It appears from searching online this AM I'm ok to rollover this after-tax contribution check to her Roth IRA. Is that correct?
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retiredjg
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Re: After tax contribution rolled over to where?...

Post by retiredjg »

Thank you for the clarification. It appears to me this money can go straight into the Roth IRA and be added to the Roth IRA (edited) conversion basis.
Last edited by retiredjg on Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: After tax contribution rolled over to where?...

Post by Soon2BXProgrammer »

retiredjg wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 7:15 am Thank you for the clarification. It appears to me this money can go straight into the Roth IRA and be added to the Roth IRA basis.
Are you sure about the second part, isn't it a "nontaxable conversion" from a tracking perspective?
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Re: After tax contribution rolled over to where?...

Post by JoMoney »

Soon2BXProgrammer wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 7:27 am
retiredjg wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 7:15 am Thank you for the clarification. It appears to me this money can go straight into the Roth IRA and be added to the Roth IRA basis.
Are you sure about the second part, isn't it a "nontaxable conversion" from a tracking perspective?
I could be wrong, and I hope someone corrects me if I am, but my understanding is that when the source is from a rollover of after-tax (non Roth) 401k to a Roth IRA, where the after-tax contributions could (optionally) be withdrawn at the rollover without tax penalty, then those contributions are also available to be withdrawn without penalty from the Roth IRA (same as normal Roth contribution amounts.)

If it was a rollover of other 401k amounts like a Roth 401k, then the age of those converted amounts takes on the age of the Roth IRA, so if the Roth IRA has been open at least 5 years, it's also available for withdrawal without penalty and similar to contribution basis in most circumstances.
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Re: After tax contribution rolled over to where?...

Post by retiredjg »

Soon2BXProgrammer wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 7:27 am
retiredjg wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 7:15 am Thank you for the clarification. It appears to me this money can go straight into the Roth IRA and be added to the Roth IRA basis.
Are you sure about the second part, isn't it a "nontaxable conversion" from a tracking perspective?
Well...that's a good question. I would think of it as "conversion basis" that has no clock attached. In my mind, that is part of the basis and in this case available immediately. However, I do not know exactly what the IRS would call it and I do see your point.

I'll edit my post.
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Re: After tax contribution rolled over to where?...

Post by Soon2BXProgrammer »

JoMoney wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:03 am I could be wrong, and I hope someone corrects me if I am, but my understanding is that when the source is from a rollover of after-tax (non Roth) 401k to a Roth IRA, where the after-tax contributions could (optionally) be withdrawn at the rollover without tax penalty, then those contributions are also available to be withdrawn without penalty from the Roth IRA (same as normal Roth contribution amounts.)

If it was a rollover of other 401k amounts like a Roth 401k, then the age of those converted amounts takes on the age of the Roth IRA, so if the Roth IRA has been open at least 5 years, it's also available for withdrawal without penalty and similar to contribution basis in most circumstances.
retiredjg wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:15 am Well...that's a good question. I would think of it as "conversion basis" that has no clock attached. In my mind, that is part of the basis and in this case available immediately. However, I do not know exactly what the IRS would call it and I do see your point.

I'll edit my post.
See this section and the next couple.
https://www.irs.gov/publications/p590b# ... 1000231065
especially:
Regular contributions.
Conversion and rollover contributions, on a first-in, first-out basis (generally, total conversions and rollovers from the earliest year first). See Aggregation (grouping and adding) rules, later. Take these conversion and rollover contributions into account as follows.
Taxable portion (the amount required to be included in gross income because of the conversion or rollover) first.
Nontaxable portion.
Earnings on contributions.
This means you need to account for even "non taxable conversions" because you can't get to them without taking last years (or any before the 5 year clock) taxable conversion money out first

see this tracking form generated by turbotax for an example:

Image

And JoMoney your right, if it was a Roth 401k, it would have been added to the basis, but its not, its aftertax funds.
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Re: After tax contribution rolled over to where?...

Post by Johnsson »

Soon2BXProgrammer wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:01 am
JoMoney wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:03 am I could be wrong, and I hope someone corrects me if I am, but my understanding is that when the source is from a rollover of after-tax (non Roth) 401k to a Roth IRA, where the after-tax contributions could (optionally) be withdrawn at the rollover without tax penalty, then those contributions are also available to be withdrawn without penalty from the Roth IRA (same as normal Roth contribution amounts.)

If it was a rollover of other 401k amounts like a Roth 401k, then the age of those converted amounts takes on the age of the Roth IRA, so if the Roth IRA has been open at least 5 years, it's also available for withdrawal without penalty and similar to contribution basis in most circumstances.
retiredjg wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:15 am Well...that's a good question. I would think of it as "conversion basis" that has no clock attached. In my mind, that is part of the basis and in this case available immediately. However, I do not know exactly what the IRS would call it and I do see your point.

I'll edit my post.
See this section and the next couple.
https://www.irs.gov/publications/p590b# ... 1000231065
especially:
Regular contributions.
Conversion and rollover contributions, on a first-in, first-out basis (generally, total conversions and rollovers from the earliest year first). See Aggregation (grouping and adding) rules, later. Take these conversion and rollover contributions into account as follows.
Taxable portion (the amount required to be included in gross income because of the conversion or rollover) first.
Nontaxable portion.
Earnings on contributions.
This means you need to account for even "non taxable conversions" because you can't get to them without taking last years (or any before the 5 year clock) taxable conversion money out first

see this tracking form generated by turbotax for an example:

Image

And JoMoney your right, if it was a Roth 401k, it would have been added to the basis, but its not, its aftertax funds.
Yikes!! We are 60 and opened our Roths in 2018 (yes, we're unfortunately late to the game) and started to convert last year with no intent to withdraw any Roth funds until well after 2022.

Do I need to do this kind of tracking for all our conversions, even after the Roth IRAs are over 5 years old? I thought once we were over 59.5 and the accounts were 5 years old we could withdraw both investments and earnings willy nilly. Not so?

For today, Since taxes were paid on the funds in this check she can roll-over to Roth IRA. Correct??
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Re: After tax contribution rolled over to where?...

Post by Soon2BXProgrammer »

Johnsson wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:17 am Yikes!! We are 60 and opened our Roths in 2018 (yes, we're unfortunately late to the game) and started to convert last year with no intent to withdraw any Roth funds until well after 2022.

Do I need to do this kind of tracking for all our conversions, even after the Roth IRAs are over 5 years old? I though once we were over 59.5 and the accounts were 5 years old we could withdraw both investments and earnings willy nilly. Not so?

For today, Since taxes were paid on the funds in this check she can roll-over to Roth IRA. Correct??
If you have no plan to withdrawal anything until after the 5 year clock for the Roth as a whole, and your over 59.5 then you can skip the tracking, however that means if you needed to make a withdrawal before that occurs, then you'll have to go through the: Pachinko machine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pachinko

Yes, she can roll over the aftertax funds from a 401k into a Roth IRA without an issue. Is this a direct rollover (meaning the 401k people wrote the check payable to the Roth IRA and you told them its a Roth IRA?)
Last edited by Soon2BXProgrammer on Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: After tax contribution rolled over to where?...

Post by retiredjg »

Soon2BXProgrammer wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:01 am This means you need to account for even "non taxable conversions" because you can't get to them without taking last years (or any before the 5 year clock) taxable conversion money out first.
You are correct. I was thinking too narrowly - not considering there might be previous conversions.
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Re: After tax contribution rolled over to where?...

Post by Johnsson »

Soon2BXProgrammer wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:21 am
Johnsson wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:17 am Yikes!! We are 60 and opened our Roths in 2018 (yes, we're unfortunately late to the game) and started to convert last year with no intent to withdraw any Roth funds until well after 2022.

Do I need to do this kind of tracking for all our conversions, even after the Roth IRAs are over 5 years old? I though once we were over 59.5 and the accounts were 5 years old we could withdraw both investments and earnings willy nilly. Not so?

For today, Since taxes were paid on the funds in this check she can roll-over to Roth IRA. Correct??
If you have no plan to withdrawal anything until after the 5 year clock for the Roth as a whole, and your over 59.5 then you can skip the tracking, however that means if you needed to make a withdrawal before that occurs, then you'll have to go through the: Pachinko machine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pachinko

Yes, she can roll over the aftertax funds from a 401k into a Roth IRA without an issue. Is this a direct rollover (meaning the 401k people wrote the check payable to the Roth IRA and you told them its a Roth IRA?)
Roll-over checks from her 401k (pre-tax and Roth) went right to Fidelity. Only this check cane to DW, in her name. We spoke with the 401k plan and Fidelity and they all agreed the check could be endorsed over Fidelity for benefit of DW to be deposited into her Roth IRA. The problem is I don't trust them.

I know it sounds weird but I trust you strangers more than those strangers. :shock:
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Re: After tax contribution rolled over to where?...

Post by retiredjg »

Johnsson wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:17 am Yikes!! We are 60 and opened our Roths in 2018 (yes, we're unfortunately late to the game) and started to convert last year with no intent to withdraw any Roth funds until well after 2022.

Do I need to do this kind of tracking for all our conversions, even after the Roth IRAs are over 5 years old? I thought once we were over 59.5 and the accounts were 5 years old we could withdraw both investments and earnings willy nilly. Not so?
I think you should continue to track for awhile, even though you don't "expect" to make a withdrawal.

Since you are over 59.5, there are no more penalties. However, the earnings that have occurred inside the Roth IRA are still taxable until 1/1/2023 (when your 5 year qualification clock has finished).

If you have an unexpected withdrawal and take out more than the contributions, you will have dipped into the earnings and owe some tax but no penalty.

After 1/1/2023, your Roth IRA will be "qualified" and there is no need to track anything. I would keep some record of the first Roth IRA contribution for a few years just in case it is ever questioned.
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Re: After tax contribution rolled over to where?...

Post by Soon2BXProgrammer »

Johnsson wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:32 am
Soon2BXProgrammer wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:21 am
Johnsson wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:17 am Yikes!! We are 60 and opened our Roths in 2018 (yes, we're unfortunately late to the game) and started to convert last year with no intent to withdraw any Roth funds until well after 2022.

Do I need to do this kind of tracking for all our conversions, even after the Roth IRAs are over 5 years old? I though once we were over 59.5 and the accounts were 5 years old we could withdraw both investments and earnings willy nilly. Not so?

For today, Since taxes were paid on the funds in this check she can roll-over to Roth IRA. Correct??
If you have no plan to withdrawal anything until after the 5 year clock for the Roth as a whole, and your over 59.5 then you can skip the tracking, however that means if you needed to make a withdrawal before that occurs, then you'll have to go through the: Pachinko machine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pachinko

Yes, she can roll over the aftertax funds from a 401k into a Roth IRA without an issue. Is this a direct rollover (meaning the 401k people wrote the check payable to the Roth IRA and you told them its a Roth IRA?)
Roll-over checks from her 401k (pre-tax and Roth) went right to Fidelity. Only this check cane to DW, in her name. We spoke with the 401k plan and Fidelity and they all agreed the check could be endorsed over Fidelity for benefit of DW to be deposited into her Roth IRA. The problem is I don't trust them.

I know it sounds weird but I trust you strangers more than those strangers. :shock:
Assuming you are still within the 60 day window, then yes, you should be able to complete the rollover.
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Re: After tax contribution rolled over to where?...

Post by JoMoney »

Soon2BXProgrammer wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:01 am...
see this tracking form generated by turbotax for an example:

Image
...
Interesting.. that tracking form doesn't seem to say anything about after-tax (non Roth) 401k rollover amounts.
The after-tax rollover amounts aren't "conversions" nor are they "Roth 401k" rollover :confused
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Re: After tax contribution rolled over to where?...

Post by Soon2BXProgrammer »

JoMoney wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:31 pm
Soon2BXProgrammer wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:01 am...
see this tracking form generated by turbotax for an example:

Image
...
Interesting.. that tracking form doesn't seem to say anything about after-tax (non Roth) 401k rollover amounts.
The after-tax rollover amounts aren't "conversions" nor are they "Roth 401k" rollover :confused
well thats turbotaxes form, not the IRS.

rollovers from after-tax to Roth IRA are a non taxable conversion. They have a value in box 1 of a 1099-R but box 2a is 0.00 then box 5 is the same as box 1.. Then distribution code is G "Direct rollover of a distribution to a qualified plan, a section 403(b) plan, a governmental section 457(b) plan, or an IRA" (assuming a direct rollover was done)

This is then accounted for as a "nontaxable conversion".

Technically aftertax funds are part of the "pretax" account. (this is blatantly obvious in an IRA, just less so in a 401k), but nonetheless, that is where they are, just that post 1986 aftertax funds if they are properly accounted for can be distributed separately. Hence when the rollover from aftertax to Roth, it is a conversion, just a nontaxable conversion.

(there are pre 1987 after tax funds that are slightly different)

---

This form is from someone who did the megabackdoor roth every year, but they didn't both splitting their aftertax contributions from their gains, and instead rolled over the whole amount to a Roth IRA.
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Re: After tax contribution rolled over to where?...

Post by JoMoney »

Soon2BXProgrammer wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:21 pm...
Technically aftertax funds are part of the "pretax" account. (this is blatantly obvious in an IRA, just less so in a 401k), but nonetheless, that is where they are, just that post 1986 aftertax funds if they are properly accounted for can be distributed separately. Hence when the rollover from after-tax to Roth, it is a conversion, just a nontaxable conversion...
But it's not the same as a conversion, as after-tax 401k contributions can be withdrawn without penalty, and if rolled into a roth ira those amounts still don't have the 5 year waiting period to avoid penalty... (?)

As long as the Roth IRA has no prior conversion amounts that are subject to 5 year waiting period (ordering rules would say those prior conversions come out first), and the after-tax rollover carried no taxable amounts over (only the after-tax contributions in one lump), then the rollover/converted after-tax 401k amounts come out penalty free even prior to 5 years... Yes?
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Re: After tax contribution rolled over to where?...

Post by Soon2BXProgrammer »

JoMoney wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:50 am
Soon2BXProgrammer wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:21 pm...
Technically aftertax funds are part of the "pretax" account. (this is blatantly obvious in an IRA, just less so in a 401k), but nonetheless, that is where they are, just that post 1986 aftertax funds if they are properly accounted for can be distributed separately. Hence when the rollover from after-tax to Roth, it is a conversion, just a nontaxable conversion...
But it's not the same as a conversion, as after-tax 401k contributions can be withdrawn without penalty, and if rolled into a roth ira those amounts still don't have the 5 year waiting period to avoid penalty... (?)

As long as the Roth IRA has no prior conversion amounts that are subject to 5 year waiting period (ordering rules would say those prior conversions come out first), and the after-tax rollover carried no taxable amounts over (only the after-tax contributions in one lump), then the rollover/converted after-tax 401k amounts come out penalty free even prior to 5 years... Yes?
it is a conversion, just a non taxable conversion. it is no longer has "aftertax 401k withdrawal characteristics" once its rolled over and converted to a Roth IRA. it has the characteristics of a "non taxable conversion" of the Roth IRA rules.

If someone has no prior taxable conversions, yes, they could get to the money without paying a penalty. The penalty wouldn't be on the "non taxable conversion" the penalty is on the prior taxable conversions that one would have to withdrawal first..

Example: If someone did a $200k taxable conversion, and is accumulating after-tax 401k funds that they might need before the $200k taxable conversion is past its 5 year period, they might choose to NOT rollover the after-tax 401k funds into a Roth IRA, so that they don't get stuck behind the taxable conversion.

----

This is sort of like how Roth 401k contributions inherit the 5 year clock of the Roth IRA. Whereas if you do a complete rollover of one Roth 401k to another, the next Roth 401k gets the start date of the first one.

The rules don't have to make sense, they are the rules because congress wrote them.
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