401k Plan Language for Roth Rollovers

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Topic Author
nlf
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Dec 26, 2019 1:38 pm

401k Plan Language for Roth Rollovers

Post by nlf »

Hi All,

I just started with a new firm and have spent some time reviewing their 401k plan documents. I have 260k in my former employer's plan that I intend to leave as-is as the investment options are pretty good. This new plan is through T. Rowe Price and aside from the usual target date funds, the options aren't all that great. See below:

- American Century Mid Cap Value, R6
- Artisan International, Investor
- Baron Asset, Institutional
- Fidelity 500 Index
- Fidelity Extended Market Index
- Fidelity Total International Index
- Goldman Sachs Small Cap Value, International
- Invesco Developing Markets, Y
- Invesco Real Estate, R5
- MainStay Winslow Large Cap Growth, I
- Meridian Growth, Institutional
- MFS International Intrinsic Value, R6
- MFS Value, R6
- Oakmark Equity and Income, Investor
- T. Rowe Price International Discovery, I

I'm still looking to max out the account, however, to take advantage of the tax savings. I'm now trying to figure out an action plan going forward. The first deferral will be on the 11/15 paycheck. Based on the plan documentation, I can elect to make either pre-tax or Roth contributions - no specific language on ability to make after-tax contributions. Additionally, I have the ability to make in-plan Roth rollover contributions. This is where I don't exactly follow the terms - "You may elect to convert a part of your Account that is not already attributable to Roth 401(k) Contributions to In-Plan Roth Rollover Contributions that are treated similarly to Roth 401(k) Contributions. Your In-Plan Roth Rollover Contributions and, if certain conditions are satisfied, the earnings on those contributions, are not taxable when distributed from the Plan."

Is this just saying that I am able to convert my pre-tax contributions to the Roth account, subject to any appropriate taxes? I would not be able to roll over any pre-tax funds to an outside IRA, correct? Any additional suggestions on how to invest funds when options don't seem that great would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.
MrJedi
Posts: 3540
Joined: Wed May 06, 2020 11:42 am

Re: 401k Plan Language for Roth Rollovers

Post by MrJedi »

The Fidelity funds look like good index funds to me. Why do you think there are no good options? Are you charged high fees or something?

In-Plan Roth Rollover, or IRR, is the technical terminology for what many would call a Roth conversion within a qualified plan (i.e. 401k).
Last edited by MrJedi on Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
exodusNH
Posts: 10349
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2021 7:21 pm

Re: 401k Plan Language for Roth Rollovers

Post by exodusNH »

nlf wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:17 pm Hi All,

I just started with a new firm and have spent some time reviewing their 401k plan documents. I have 260k in my former employer's plan that I intend to leave as-is as the investment options are pretty good. This new plan is through T. Rowe Price and aside from the usual target date funds, the options aren't all that great. See below:

- American Century Mid Cap Value, R6
- Artisan International, Investor
- Baron Asset, Institutional
- Fidelity 500 Index
- Fidelity Extended Market Index
- Fidelity Total International Index
- Goldman Sachs Small Cap Value, International
- Invesco Developing Markets, Y
- Invesco Real Estate, R5
- MainStay Winslow Large Cap Growth, I
- Meridian Growth, Institutional
- MFS International Intrinsic Value, R6
- MFS Value, R6
- Oakmark Equity and Income, Investor
- T. Rowe Price International Discovery, I

I'm still looking to max out the account, however, to take advantage of the tax savings. I'm now trying to figure out an action plan going forward. The first deferral will be on the 11/15 paycheck. Based on the plan documentation, I can elect to make either pre-tax or Roth contributions - no specific language on ability to make after-tax contributions. Additionally, I have the ability to make in-plan Roth rollover contributions. This is where I don't exactly follow the terms - "You may elect to convert a part of your Account that is not already attributable to Roth 401(k) Contributions to In-Plan Roth Rollover Contributions that are treated similarly to Roth 401(k) Contributions. Your In-Plan Roth Rollover Contributions and, if certain conditions are satisfied, the earnings on those contributions, are not taxable when distributed from the Plan."

Is this just saying that I am able to convert my pre-tax contributions to the Roth account, subject to any appropriate taxes? I would not be able to roll over any pre-tax funds to an outside IRA, correct? Any additional suggestions on how to invest funds when options don't seem that great would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Unless there are some crazy fees, those three Fidelity funds are great options!

I notice you didn't list any bond funds.
Topic Author
nlf
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Dec 26, 2019 1:38 pm

Re: 401k Plan Language for Roth Rollovers

Post by nlf »

My plan was to shuffle the contributions into the Fidelity funds anyway. The comment of "not great" was more so directed as the non-Fidelity options.

The three Fidelity funds as follows (if Google serves me right):
- Fidelity 500 Index (FXAIX) - ER 0.015%
- Fidelity Extended Market Index (FSMAX) - 0.035%
- Fidelity Total International Index (FTIHX) - 0.06%

Here are the bond funds:
- Dodge & Cox Income
- Fidelity US Bond Index
- Mainstay MacKay High Yield Corp Bond, I
- PIMCO Real Return, Institutional
- Vanguard Total Institutional Bond Index, Admiral

I take it my original interpretation of IRR is correct - converting from traditional 401k to a Roth 401k. I don't think this conversion currently makes sense in my situation, but I just wanted to make sure I wasn't mistaking the rollover verbiage for something else.
MrJedi
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Joined: Wed May 06, 2020 11:42 am

Re: 401k Plan Language for Roth Rollovers

Post by MrJedi »

nlf wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 2:41 pm I take it my original interpretation of IRR is correct - converting from traditional 401k to a Roth 401k. I don't think this conversion currently makes sense in my situation, but I just wanted to make sure I wasn't mistaking the rollover verbiage for something else.
Yes, you can see here for reference on the IRS terminology. IRAs and qualified plans like 401ks have slightly different terminology in some areas that are functionally similar.

https://www.irs.gov/retirement-plans/ro ... ement-plan
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Duckie
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Re: 401k Plan Language for Roth Rollovers

Post by Duckie »

nlf wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 2:41 pm The three Fidelity funds as follows (if Google serves me right):
- Fidelity 500 Index (FXAIX) - ER 0.015%
- Fidelity Extended Market Index (FSMAX) - 0.035%
- Fidelity Total International Index (FTIHX) - 0.06%
Did you get the expense ratios from Google? If so, those are retail rates, not your particular plan rates which may be different.
Here are the bond funds:
- Dodge & Cox Income
- Fidelity US Bond Index
- Mainstay MacKay High Yield Corp Bond, I
- PIMCO Real Return, Institutional
- Vanguard Total Institutional Bond Index, Admiral
If you want bonds in this account use either Fidelity US Bond Index or Vanguard Total Bond Index. And it's either Institutional or Admiral. It can't be both at the same time; they are two different classes.
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ruralavalon
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Location: Illinois

Re: 401k Plan Language for Roth Rollovers

Post by ruralavalon »

nlf wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 2:41 pm The three Fidelity funds as follows (if Google serves me right):
- Fidelity 500 Index (FXAIX) - ER 0.015%
- Fidelity Extended Market Index (FSMAX) - 0.035%
- Fidelity Total International Index (FTIHX) - 0.06%

Here are the bond funds:
- Dodge & Cox Income
- Fidelity US Bond Index
- Mainstay MacKay High Yield Corp Bond, I
- PIMCO Real Return, Institutional
- Vanguard Total Institutional Bond Index, Admiral
What are the expense ratios as charged in your new employer's 401k plan using T. Rowe Price?

Sometimes the expense ratios charged in a 401k plan are different than those charged the general.public for the identical funds.

What funds are offered in your old employer's 401k plan?

Please give fund names, tickers and expense ratios.
nlf wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:17 pmI'm still looking to max out the account, however, to take advantage of the tax savings. I'm now trying to figure out an action plan going forward. The first deferral will be on the 11/15 paycheck. Based on the plan documentation, I can elect to make either pre-tax or Roth contributions - no specific language on ability to make after-tax contributions. Additionally, I have the ability to make in-plan Roth rollover contributions. This is where I don't exactly follow the terms - "You may elect to convert a part of your Account that is not already attributable to Roth 401(k) Contributions to In-Plan Roth Rollover Contributions that are treated similarly to Roth 401(k) Contributions. Your In-Plan Roth Rollover Contributions and, if certain conditions are satisfied, the earnings on those contributions, are not taxable when distributed from the Plan."

Is this just saying that I am able to convert my pre-tax contributions to the Roth account, subject to any appropriate taxes? I would not be able to roll over any pre-tax funds to an outside IRA, correct? Any additional suggestions on how to invest funds when options don't seem that great would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.
You can do an "in-plan Roth conversion".

You cannot do an "in-service distribution" to an outside IRA.

Read both the Summary Plan Description and the Plan Document to see if the Plan permits non-Roth after-tax contributions.

TFB blog post, "The Elusive Mega Backdoor Roth", link.

White Coat Investor, "The Mega Backdoor Roth IRA", link.
"Everything should be as simple as it is, but not simpler." - Albert Einstein | Wiki article link: Bogleheads® investment philosophy
Topic Author
nlf
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Dec 26, 2019 1:38 pm

Re: 401k Plan Language for Roth Rollovers

Post by nlf »

I finally was able to register for online access with T. Rowe Price (new 401k) to obtain the offered investment options. I apologize in advance as I was not able to figure out how to get this information tabulated.

New 401k
AMDVX American Cent Mid Cap Value R6 0.63%
ARTIX Artisan International Fund 1.19%
BARIX Baron Asset Inst 1.05%
FXAIX Fidelity 500 Index Fund 0.02%
FSMAX Fidelity Ext Mkt Index Fund 0.04%
FTIHX Fidelity Total Intl Index Fund 0.06%
GSSIX Goldman Sachs Sm Cap Val Inst 0.99%
ODVYX Invesco Developing Mkts Y 0.97%
IARIX Invesco Real Estate R5 0.87%
MLAIX Mainstay Winslow Lrg Cap Gr I 0.72%
MRRGX Meridian Growth Institutional 0.82%
MINJX Mfs Intl Intrinsic Val R6 0.62%
MEIKX Mfs Value R6 0.47%
TIDDX T Rowe Price Intl Discovery I 1.06%
DODIX Dodge & Cox Income 0.42%
FXNAX Fidelity Us Bond Index Fund 0.03%
MHYIX Mainstay Mackay Hgh Yld Cor Bd 0.74%
PRRIX Pimco Real Return 0.47%
VTABX Vanguard Ttl Intl Bond Idx Adm 0.11%

Previous 401k (* indicates current investment):
RNPGX American Funds New Perspective R6 0.42%
RNWGX American Funds New World R6 0.59%
CSXRX Calvert US Large Cap Core Responsible Index 0.19%
FIKCX Fidelity Advisor Health Care Fund Class Z 0.60%
FOCKX Fidelity OTC Portfolio Class K 0.72%
FEGRX First Eagle Global Fund Class R6 0.79%
JHBSX John Hancock Bond Fund Class R6 0.36%
LHYVX Lord Abbett High Yield Fund Class R6 0.61%
MGLRX MFS Global Real Estate Fund Class R6 0.90%
MTCLX MFS Technology Fund Class R6 0.83%
INIIX VanEck International Investors Gold Fund Class I 1.00%
VBIAX Vanguard Balanced Index Fund - Admiral 0.07%
VTMNX Vanguard Developed Markets Index - Institutional 0.05%
VEMAX Vanguard Emerging Markets - Admiral 0.14%
* VINIX Vanguard Institutional Index Fund - Institutional 0.04%
VAIPX Vanguard Inflation-Protexted Securities - Admiral 0.10%
* VMCIX Vanguard Mid Cap Index Fund - Institutional 0.04%
VGSNX Vanguard Real Estate Index - Institutional 0.10%
* VSCIX Vanguard Small Cap Index Fund - Institutional 0.04%
VBTIX Vanguard Total Bond Market Index - Institutional 0.04%
MrJedi
Posts: 3540
Joined: Wed May 06, 2020 11:42 am

Re: 401k Plan Language for Roth Rollovers

Post by MrJedi »

Unless your plan has extra fees on top of the fund expenses, then your new plan is very good and comparable to the old plan.

You have everything you need to create the typical 3 fund portfolio.


US Stocks
FXAIX Fidelity 500 Index Fund 0.02%
FSMAX Fidelity Ext Mkt Index Fund 0.04%
Some people are ok with just the SP500 as close enough to total US market and leave out the extended market index. Otherwise you can do these two at about 80/20 ratio to approximate a true total US market. If you want to keep things simple, I think the 500 index by itself here is perfectly fine.

International stocks
FTIHX Fidelity Total Intl Index Fund 0.06%
This is a pretty standard total international stock market index.

Bonds
FXNAX Fidelity Us Bond Index Fund 0.03%
This is the standard total bond index most people use
User avatar
ruralavalon
Posts: 26353
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:29 am
Location: Illinois

Re: 401k Plan Language for Roth Rollovers

Post by ruralavalon »

nlf wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:43 pm I finally was able to register for online access with T. Rowe Price (new 401k) to obtain the offered investment options. I apologize in advance as I was not able to figure out how to get this information tabulated.

New 401k
AMDVX American Cent Mid Cap Value R6 0.63%
ARTIX Artisan International Fund 1.19%
BARIX Baron Asset Inst 1.05%
FXAIX Fidelity 500 Index Fund 0.02%
FSMAX Fidelity Ext Mkt Index Fund 0.04%
FTIHX Fidelity Total Intl Index Fund 0.06%
GSSIX Goldman Sachs Sm Cap Val Inst 0.99%
ODVYX Invesco Developing Mkts Y 0.97%
IARIX Invesco Real Estate R5 0.87%
MLAIX Mainstay Winslow Lrg Cap Gr I 0.72%
MRRGX Meridian Growth Institutional 0.82%
MINJX Mfs Intl Intrinsic Val R6 0.62%
MEIKX Mfs Value R6 0.47%
TIDDX T Rowe Price Intl Discovery I 1.06%
DODIX Dodge & Cox Income 0.42%
FXNAX Fidelity Us Bond Index Fund 0.03%
MHYIX Mainstay Mackay Hgh Yld Cor Bd 0.74%
PRRIX Pimco Real Return 0.47%
VTABX Vanguard Ttl Intl Bond Idx Adm 0.11%

Previous 401k (* indicates current investment):
RNPGX American Funds New Perspective R6 0.42%
RNWGX American Funds New World R6 0.59%
CSXRX Calvert US Large Cap Core Responsible Index 0.19%
FIKCX Fidelity Advisor Health Care Fund Class Z 0.60%
FOCKX Fidelity OTC Portfolio Class K 0.72%
FEGRX First Eagle Global Fund Class R6 0.79%
JHBSX John Hancock Bond Fund Class R6 0.36%
LHYVX Lord Abbett High Yield Fund Class R6 0.61%
MGLRX MFS Global Real Estate Fund Class R6 0.90%
MTCLX MFS Technology Fund Class R6 0.83%
INIIX VanEck International Investors Gold Fund Class I 1.00%
VBIAX Vanguard Balanced Index Fund - Admiral 0.07%
VTMNX Vanguard Developed Markets Index - Institutional 0.05%
VEMAX Vanguard Emerging Markets - Admiral 0.14%
* VINIX Vanguard Institutional Index Fund - Institutional 0.04%
VAIPX Vanguard Inflation-Protexted Securities - Admiral 0.10%
* VMCIX Vanguard Mid Cap Index Fund - Institutional 0.04%
VGSNX Vanguard Real Estate Index - Institutional 0.10%
* VSCIX Vanguard Small Cap Index Fund - Institutional 0.04%
VBTIX Vanguard Total Bond Market Index - Institutional 0.04%
Your new employer's 401k plan offers excellent, very diversified index funds with very low expense ratios. You are fortunate.

In selecting funds strive for a combination of both broad diversification (to reduce risk) and low expense ratios (to increase your net return). To simply and easily achieve those two goals I suggest choosing funds to simulate the very well diversified, low expense ratio "three-fund portfolio". Please see:
1) Wiki article "Three-fund portfolio";
2) Forum discussion, "The Three-Fund Portfolio"; and
3) Taylor Larimore post, "Articles recommending the three-fund portfolio".


In your new employer's 401k plan I suggest using these three funds:
1) Fidelity 500 Index Fund (over 80% of the U.S. stock market) (FXAIX) ER 0.02%;
2) Fidelity Total International Index Fund (FTIHX) ER 0.06%; and
3) Fidelity U.S. Bond Index Fund (a total bond market index fund) (FXNAX) ER 0.03%.

For domestic stocks I suggest using a total stock market index fund where available. "In a 401(k) plan with limited choices one might very well opt for an S&P 500 index fund to serve as the domestic stock component of a three-fund portfolio." Wiki article, Three-fund portfolio, "Other considerations".

In my opinion in a plan that lacks a total stock market index fund, a S&P 500 index fund is good enough by itself for a domestic stock allocation. A S&P 500 index fund covers over 80% of the U.S. stock market investing in stocks of selected large-cap and mid-cap U.S. companies. In the 29 years since the creation of the first total stock market index fund the performance of the two types of funds has been almost identical. Portfolio Visualizer, 1993-2021. So it seems that adding a little in mid/small cap stocks trying to mimic the holdings of a total stock market fund has historically made little difference in performance.

See also:
1) Allan Roth, CBS Moneywatch (02/03/2010), "John C. Bogle on the S&P 500 vs. the Total Stock Market"; and
2) Wall Street Physician (01/17/2019), "Should You Invest in the S&P 500 or the Total Stock Market?".

If you want to add Fidelity Extended Market Index Fund (FSMAX) ER 0.04%, then an 82/18 mix of the S&P 500 and extended market index funds will mimic the content of a total stock market index fund. Wiki article, "Approximating total stock market". In my opinion this is not necessary, it is optional if you prefer to do this.



nlf wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:17 pm I just started with a new firm and have spent some time reviewing their 401k plan documents. I have 260k in my former employer's plan that I intend to leave as-is as the investment options are pretty good. This new plan is through T. Rowe Price and aside from the usual target date funds, the options aren't all that great.
Rollover of some kind should be the default preference, otherwise you may wind up with many small old 401k accounts. The average worker tenure at an employer is just 4-5 years, and employees on average have 12 employers during their working life. Employee Benefit Research Institute (EBRI), "The Good Old Days", link; and Bureau of Labor Statistics, FAQ.


The rollover decision depends almost entirely on expenses and funds offered. There are three basic choices. In my opinion the best option is to rollover your old 401k account into your new employer's plan.

Your new employer's 401k plan offers excellent, very diversified index funds with very low expense ratios. You are fortunate.

1) If the funds offered in the old 401k are good with low expense ratios, and there is no account maintenance fee charged for keeping the account there or only a small fee, then it may be best to leave the old 401k where it is.

2) (In my opinion the best option is to rollover your old 401k account into your new plan.) If the new 401k offers similar or better funds with similar or lower expense ratios, and will accept a rollover from the old 401k, then it may be best to roll the old 401k over into the new 401k.

3) If neither 401k offers good funds with low expense ratios then it may be best to roll the old 401k over to an IRA at a low cost fund provider like Vanguard, Fidelity or Schwab.

Wiki article, 401k, ”Rollover to IRA".

Additional considerations include:

1) the convenience of having one fewer account to keep track and manage, if you move the old 401k into the new plan or an IRA;

2) depending on your state, a 401k plan may have greater protection from creditors than does an IRA;

3) a rollover to an IRA may impede ability to do a Backdoor Roth IRA, which may be an important consideration for higher income individuals, and

3) a 401k allows earlier distributions penalty free starting at age 55 (versus age 59.5 for an IRA) if no longer employed by the employer offering the plan.
Wiki article, 401k, "Move to new 401k".
"Everything should be as simple as it is, but not simpler." - Albert Einstein | Wiki article link: Bogleheads® investment philosophy
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