Is Vanguard so bad?

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VT1964
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by VT1964 »

It’s true that the fees are low to have a Vanguard account. But the bottom line is some of us have a lot of money in their care and if we simply want to call them to ask a question it should not be that difficult. I’m also wondering what the incentive is to have different tiers of membership as it doesn’t seem to get you better phone access. I’ve had shorter wait time calling Social Security office.
nalor511
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by nalor511 »

ruralavalon wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 6:39 am
UpperNwGuy wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 7:53 pm
nalor511 wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 7:32 pm I like Fidelity. I like Schwab. I don't know why people stay at VG except inertia.
On point! I have accounts at all three, and I like Fidelity and Schwab better than Vanguard. I stay at Vanguard because of inertia. The new money is going to the other two.
I stay at Vanguard because I have experienced absolutely no problems at all with them. I have always received prompt, courteous and professional customer service. I also stay with Vanguard because I like the Vanguard app and website, and see no features at Fidelity or Schwab that I find enticing for a buy and hold investor like myself.
Live chat 24/7. Support after 6pmEST. I never want to need one, but in the horrible event that I (or my heirs) do, an in-person branch. All for no added cost to me.
URSnshn
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by URSnshn »

I'm wary of threads like these. On the one hand people do have experiences with companies and organizations of any kind and they want to - understandably - share their experience in the hopes that others won't suffer the same issue. However it is is also true that people who have had a positive experience don't share and/or share in the same volume as people who have had difficulties.

In a job I had a few years back, I was always asked for a referral - what organization was the best. What organizations should the person stay away from? But the truth was there were people in all of the places I was familiar with that had both good and bad experiences. I'm wondering if this thread is a fair representation of satisfaction among Vanguard customers?
nalor511
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by nalor511 »

URSnshn wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 7:01 pm I'm wary of threads like these. On the one hand people do have experiences with companies and organizations of any kind and they want to - understandably - share their experience in the hopes that others won't suffer the same issue. However it is is also true that people who have had a positive experience don't share and/or share in the same volume as people who have had difficulties.

In a job I had a few years back, I was always asked for a referral - what organization was the best. What organizations should the person stay away from? But the truth was there were people in all of the places I was familiar with that had both good and bad experiences. I'm wondering if this thread is a fair representation of satisfaction among Vanguard customers?
It's not, there's no such thing. No need to be wary. Pick the place with the features you want and that's it.

Vanguard didn't "do" anything to me. But they removed one thing after another, slowly over the years, and now the feature set is sorely lacking competitors
Last edited by nalor511 on Thu Nov 04, 2021 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
itsmeagain
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by itsmeagain »

As a longtime Vanguard client, I always thought they were great. UntiI I needed them. They have royally screwed up a transfer of shares with covered calls. Their errors have wasted many hours of mine, it's been weeks without resolution, and the lost opportunity costs (while positions were frozen due to their incompetence) have been very significant. And it's still not resolved after a month. In short, Vanguard is a horrible and incompetent brokerage firm.
barefootjan
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by barefootjan »

Stubbie wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 7:09 am
Blue456 wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 6:09 am
Mike Scott wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:02 pm Vanguard is still the best place to hold their own mutual funds.
There is E*TRADE. Where you can hold vanguard mutual funds admiral shares for free with better service.
+1. Yes, moved IRA accounts to E*Trade for precisely this reason. And they gave me transfer bonuses for my trouble.
Can you tell us more about E*Trade? I just did a brief search and they seem to have all the Vanguard funds that I expect to need (although I didn’t see Wellesley in Admiral shares? just Investor. Did I miss something?)

How do you like their website? What contact methods do they offer? What’s it like when you want to do things like make Roth conversions, exchange from one fund to another, or take a distribution? Any problems transferring $ in or out?

Anybody else use E*Trade? Especially anyone in retirement - Care to share your experience?
VT1964
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by VT1964 »

OK here is my question: what is the point of having tiers of accounts there? Does the Flagship Select customer get the same lousy phone service as the Voyager customer? What if you enroll in their PAS offering?
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Tubes
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Tubes »

VT1964 wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 5:03 am OK here is my question: what is the point of having tiers of accounts there? Does the Flagship Select customer get the same lousy phone service as the Voyager customer? What if you enroll in their PAS offering?
PAS sets you on a different path. They have their own phone number, although their hours are the same as the rest with no weekend hours. As to wait times? I don't know. We don't have many reports here.

As for the tiers: that's a mystery. Short answer: the tiers sometimes seem to help, but it varies and is not a firm advantage all the time.

It *seems* that the Flagship number gets you better service, but reports vary. Ditto for Flagship Select. The problem is we have plenty of reports on varied service from these numbers too. Additionally, the concept of a personal representative is opaque. Some people have them, some don't. And it may not matter since there are reports of actually being slowed down by having a rep if that rep fails to return a call or come to a meeting.
sycamore
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by sycamore »

barefootjan wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 8:06 pm ...
Can you tell us more about E*Trade? I just did a brief search and they seem to have all the Vanguard funds that I expect to need (although I didn’t see Wellesley in Admiral shares? just Investor. Did I miss something?)

How do you like their website? What contact methods do they offer? What’s it like when you want to do things like make Roth conversions, exchange from one fund to another, or take a distribution? Any problems transferring $ in or out?

Anybody else use E*Trade? Especially anyone in retirement - Care to share your experience?
- E*Trade is a well-known brokerage. They were bought by Morgan Stanley not too long ago. That may or may not be cause for concern (it's not for me).

- They compete well against other brokerages overall. As you noticed they don't charge a fee for many/most Vanguard funds -- probably all the index ones. They do charge a $49.99 early redemption fee if you shares of certain funds (incl. Vanguard) held for 90 days or less.

Like other non-Vanguard brokerages they typically won't offer Admiral shares for the active management funds like Wellesley. I'm not sure but maybe you can transfer such Admiral shares in but you won't be able to buy more.

- Their website is fine. There'll be a small learning curve if you were to switch as there would be with any brokerage.

- They offer toll-free phone number, secure message, and online chat, which I used the other day. At the time, they showed a banner message on their customer service page: "Due to an increased volume of inquiries and operational shift, a response may take 3-5 business days. We appreciate your patience and encourage you to see our online FAQs for fastest service." Not sure what "operational shift" means but I suspect they probably have the same issues as Vanguard and others in regards to hiring & keeping qualified customer service reps.

My particular chat experience was "okay" - a few minutes went by before each response from the CS rep. The wait was not interminable.

- I had no problems with an asset transfer from Vanguard to E*Trade. I initiated it online from E*Trade. As usual, it's done via ACATS system. Went through in about a week. I have yet to transfer money or assets out.

- I have not done a mutual fund sell or exchange, but their web site does allow you to do both. When you sell by "shares" as opposed to "dollars", you can specify the specific share lots to sell which is helpful for tax loss harvesting.

- I have not taken RMDs so I'm not sure what features they have in that regard (like withholding). E*Trade has an RMD calculator here: https://etradecalculators.wealthmsi.com/rmd

- They do have a Roth conversion tool that I haven't used. In addition to selecting the relevant accounts, it allows for some withholding options as shown here:
Image
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ruralavalon
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by ruralavalon »

URSnshn wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 7:01 pm I'm wary of threads like these. On the one hand people do have experiences with companies and organizations of any kind and they want to - understandably - share their experience in the hopes that others won't suffer the same issue. However it is is also true that people who have had a positive experience don't share and/or share in the same volume as people who have had difficulties.

In a job I had a few years back, I was always asked for a referral - what organization was the best. What organizations should the person stay away from? But the truth was there were people in all of the places I was familiar with that had both good and bad experiences. I'm wondering if this thread is a fair representation of satisfaction among Vanguard customers?
This is probably not a fair representation of satisfaction of Vanguard customers.

Vanguard is the second largest asset manager in the entire world, only BlackRock is larger, and far ahead of Fidelity and Schwab. ADV Ratings, "World's Top Asset Management Firms", link.
Last edited by ruralavalon on Fri Nov 05, 2021 8:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Everything should be as simple as it is, but not simpler." - Albert Einstein | Wiki article link: Bogleheads® investment philosophy
dbr
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by dbr »

ruralavalon wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 8:13 am
URSnshn wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 7:01 pm I'm wary of threads like these. On the one hand people do have experiences with companies and organizations of any kind and they want to - understandably - share their experience in the hopes that others won't suffer the same issue. However it is is also true that people who have had a positive experience don't share and/or share in the same volume as people who have had difficulties.

In a job I had a few years back, I was always asked for a referral - what organization was the best. What organizations should the person stay away from? But the truth was there were people in all of the places I was familiar with that had both good and bad experiences. I'm wondering if this thread is a fair representation of satisfaction among Vanguard customers?
This is probably not a fair representation of satisfaction of Vanguard customers.

Vanguard is the second largest asset manager in the entire world, only BlackRock is larger, and far ahead of Fidelity and Schwab. ADV Ratings, "World's Too Asset Management Firms", link.
It's a representation of the posters on this forum who have had a problem they want to mention plus a few that want to volunteer that they have have not had a problem. It certainly is not a sample from which one can infer that one should place one's business at one place or another.

The other side of it, at least for me, is that some of the things you read seem so outrageous one just wonders how that is possible. Some of the other things seem to be fairly trivial.

Disclaimer: I have never had an account at Vanguard and am happy where I am. I am neutral as to where someone might be advised to invest.
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Tycoon
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Tycoon »

We've been with Vanguard for almost 30 years. They are not the company they were 30 years ago. If it weren't for the MASSIVE tax hit I would transfer all of our assets from Vanguard.
Emotionless, prognostication free investing. Ignoring the noise and economists since 1979. Getting rich off of "smart people's" behavioral mistakes.
dbr
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by dbr »

Tycoon wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 8:50 am We've been with Vanguard for almost 30 years. They are not the company they were 30 years ago. If it weren't for the MASSIVE tax hit I would transfer all of our assets from Vanguard.
Why would there be a tax hit? Most anything one might hold at Vanguard can be transferred in kind elsewhere or converted to an ETF and transferred, but might not be in the NTF list elsewhere. There could be one or two offerings at Vanguard that don't transfer, but I don't know what those are. It could be investors should always be careful before buying something that only one broker will hold, but such proprietary investments have normally been problems at brokers not Fidelity, Schwab, Vanguard, etc. I think there might be some Fidelity funds that don't transfer though.

There is a distinction between what company runs one's funds and what company is one's broker. The issue is Vanguard as a broker.
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Wiggums
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Wiggums »

itsmeagain wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 7:10 pm As a longtime Vanguard client, I always thought they were great. UntiI I needed them. They have royally screwed up a transfer of shares with covered calls. Their errors have wasted many hours of mine, it's been weeks without resolution, and the lost opportunity costs (while positions were frozen due to their incompetence) have been very significant. And it's still not resolved after a month. In short, Vanguard is a horrible and incompetent brokerage firm.
I’ve been with Vanguard for a very long time. The pandemic has affected customer service and other brokers as well. I find that there’s a lot of misinformation and statements from people that don’t even have Vanguard accounts. The moderator should have a separate area for broker issues.
"I started with nothing and I still have most of it left."
Stubbie
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Stubbie »

sycamore wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 6:27 am
barefootjan wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 8:06 pm ...
Can you tell us more about E*Trade? I just did a brief search and they seem to have all the Vanguard funds that I expect to need (although I didn’t see Wellesley in Admiral shares? just Investor. Did I miss something?)

How do you like their website? What contact methods do they offer? What’s it like when you want to do things like make Roth conversions, exchange from one fund to another, or take a distribution? Any problems transferring $ in or out?

Anybody else use E*Trade? Especially anyone in retirement - Care to share your experience?
- E*Trade is a well-known brokerage. They were bought by Morgan Stanley not too long ago. That may or may not be cause for concern (it's not for me).

- They compete well against other brokerages overall. As you noticed they don't charge a fee for many/most Vanguard funds -- probably all the index ones. They do charge a $49.99 early redemption fee if you shares of certain funds (incl. Vanguard) held for 90 days or less.

Like other non-Vanguard brokerages they typically won't offer Admiral shares for the active management funds like Wellesley. I'm not sure but maybe you can transfer such Admiral shares in but you won't be able to buy more.

- Their website is fine. There'll be a small learning curve if you were to switch as there would be with any brokerage.

- They offer toll-free phone number, secure message, and online chat, which I used the other day. At the time, they showed a banner message on their customer service page: "Due to an increased volume of inquiries and operational shift, a response may take 3-5 business days. We appreciate your patience and encourage you to see our online FAQs for fastest service." Not sure what "operational shift" means but I suspect they probably have the same issues as Vanguard and others in regards to hiring & keeping qualified customer service reps.

My particular chat experience was "okay" - a few minutes went by before each response from the CS rep. The wait was not interminable.

- I had no problems with an asset transfer from Vanguard to E*Trade. I initiated it online from E*Trade. As usual, it's done via ACATS system. Went through in about a week. I have yet to transfer money or assets out.

- I have not done a mutual fund sell or exchange, but their web site does allow you to do both. When you sell by "shares" as opposed to "dollars", you can specify the specific share lots to sell which is helpful for tax loss harvesting.

- I have not taken RMDs so I'm not sure what features they have in that regard (like withholding). E*Trade has an RMD calculator here: https://etradecalculators.wealthmsi.com/rmd

- They do have a Roth conversion tool that I haven't used. In addition to selecting the relevant accounts, it allows for some withholding options as shown here:
Image
Thanks for the detailed response, Sycamore!
E*Trade has been a fine brokerage for me. We will see what changes, if any, the acquisition brings.
I chose E*trade specifically for the fee free Vanguard mutual funds but also for the low $19.95 fee for other funds such as PSLDX which is also quite popular with some Bogleheads.
bubbly
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by bubbly »

Just rolled over a previous 401k from fidelity to current 401k in vanguard. Very smooth process even though fidelity insisted on mailing me the check which I then had to forward to vanguard with the rollover form. Called vanguard twice for confirmation and waited no more than 5 minutes, perhaps their workplace plan division is less busy than their regular customer service?

USPS courier tracking indicated that the check was delivered to their El Paso location yesterday morning. By the afternoon, the rollover was processing. This morning, it was processed and the balance was updated in the new vanguard 401k balance. Overall process took 10 days (including weekends) and 7 of those days was waiting for Fidelity to mail me the check.

Could have been a best case scenario but you can’t beat a 3 day turnaround from Vanguard. I did use priority mail on the way to Vanguard (I think money well spent for 8 dollars).

Just my luck that these past 10 days have been very positive and I missed out on some of those gains. You win some and you lose some :greedy
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anon_investor
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by anon_investor »

Wiggums wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 9:44 am
itsmeagain wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 7:10 pm As a longtime Vanguard client, I always thought they were great. UntiI I needed them. They have royally screwed up a transfer of shares with covered calls. Their errors have wasted many hours of mine, it's been weeks without resolution, and the lost opportunity costs (while positions were frozen due to their incompetence) have been very significant. And it's still not resolved after a month. In short, Vanguard is a horrible and incompetent brokerage firm.
I’ve been with Vanguard for a very long time. The pandemic has affected customer service and other brokers as well. I find that there’s a lot of misinformation and statements from people that don’t even have Vanguard accounts. The moderator should have a separate area for broker issues.
20+ year Vanguard client. Vanguard phone hold times are still very long for me even recently (called to do MF to ETF conversion). Calling Fidelity recently during the middle of the day the hold times were short (called regarding a PoA). Calling Merrill Edge at night (when Vanguard would have been closed) there was 0 hold time (called regarding updating something info on my account).

Vanguard has limited phone hours (not great for anyone that works regular hours and can't be on hold for a long time). At least with Fidelity I can use live chat during normal business hours.
Thesaints
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Thesaints »

Vanguard is getting worse and worse. I've been with them for 20+ years and can certainly appreciate the downward slope.
Latest step downward has been the new phone app, which is the same as it was before, except that it makes less information available.
PersonalFinanceJam
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by PersonalFinanceJam »

I started investing with Vanguard in 2005, my wife and I transferred all of our assets out of Vanguard around March of this year. I started investing with Vanguard after a 1.5 year relationship with Edward Jones. I was pretty young back then and knew nothing about investing or fees or really anything. After that time with Jones I realized there was a strong headwind working against my money. I got educated and my research indicated that if you wanted a low cost portfolio with good service then Vanguard was where you went.

Flash forward to now. My wife hated the Vanguard website, the limited service hours for phone support were also somewhat annoying. The good news is because of the relentless competition in the marketplace, fees have come down and basically any low fee brokerage can be a good place for your money. Other companies have proven they can operate low cost funds very well. Coupled with the rise of low cost ETFs, I don’t think this is just a flash in the pan. I think it’s here to stay.

I think that’s what we are seeing now play out in this thread. Vanguard has gone from practically the only game in town for the buy and hold index investor to being one of many. I no longer recommend Vanguard if someone asks where they should go. I don’t try to dissuade them from going there either. So, I don’t think Vanguard is “so bad”, but other places are equally as good or better depending on what you are looking for.
Jason95357
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Jason95357 »

namajones wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:56 am
sureshoe wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:52 am
#1 > Why do you prefer mutual funds to ETFs? In general, ETFs cost less. This is a bit of a Pepsi/Coke debate, but I haven't bought a mutual fund outside a 401k in years.
I don't want to be tempted to look at the ups and down every day. And I am tempted. I know myself well enough now to know that that's just me.

I also like to be able to invest total amounts rather than having cash turds left over after purchasing whole shares.

I also don't like "negotiating" buy-in price intraday. I'll take the end-of-day NAV, thank you very much.

In short, I don't like ETFs at all. The fee difference, if any, is next to meaningless for me.
This 100%. We set our auto-investing plans once a year and don't touch it until the next year after our family financial planning meeting which includes an annual review, revising our upcoming goals and expenses, and risk appetite. Vanguard MF auto-investing every two weeks is perfect for this - I get paid and Vanguard auto invests and withdrawals the money from my checking and I never think about it nor am tempted to play with things.
FRANK2009
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by FRANK2009 »

30 year Vanguard share holder and thinking about leaving. I have dividend checks from an IRA at my credit union mailed to Vanguard on a monthly basis. Since Infosys has taken over Vanguard's mail operations, many of those checks have gone missing. Last month for the first time, a check somehow got stolen and cashed. E mailed Vanguard, so far nothing. Never had a problem when Vanguard handled its mail in house. VERY unhappy with this outsourcing even though I'm sure it's a cost savings measure.
sport
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by sport »

FRANK2009 wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 1:43 pm 30 year Vanguard share holder and thinking about leaving. I have dividend checks from an IRA at my credit union mailed to Vanguard on a monthly basis. Since Infosys has taken over Vanguard's mail operations, many of those checks have gone missing. Last month for the first time, a check somehow got stolen and cashed. E mailed Vanguard, so far nothing. Never had a problem when Vanguard handled its mail in house. VERY unhappy with this outsourcing even though I'm sure it's a cost savings measure.
You may want to consider ACH transfers instead of mailing paper checks. I make all transfers in and out of Vanguard via ACH. It is a lot more reliable than the post office.
Maverick3320
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Maverick3320 »

iamz wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 10:09 am I'm a long time Vanguard customer.

I have a few issues -
- Takes too for a linked external bank account to be added. Once the two small deposits are entered, it takes an additional 7 -14 days.
- Constant pestering to use their financial advisors when calling in. But a polite "no" solves that problem.
- Close to zero interest on money parked in Vanguard.
How often are you calling Vanguard?
FRANK2009
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by FRANK2009 »

You may want to consider ACH transfers instead of mailing paper checks. I make all transfers in and out of Vanguard via ACH. It is a lot more reliable than the post office.

ACH transfers aren't available for IRA accounts at the credit union.

How often are you calling Vanguard?

E mailed Vanguards CEO about the lost check problem a week ago.

E mailed Vanguards fraud dept last week when the credit union informed me that the check was cashed. Will call next week.
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Tubes
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Tubes »

bubbly wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 7:41 am Just rolled over a previous 401k from fidelity to current 401k in vanguard. Very smooth process even though fidelity insisted on mailing me the check which I then had to forward to vanguard with the rollover form. Called vanguard twice for confirmation and waited no more than 5 minutes, perhaps their workplace plan division is less busy than their regular customer service?

USPS courier tracking indicated that the check was delivered to their El Paso location yesterday morning. By the afternoon, the rollover was processing. This morning, it was processed and the balance was updated in the new vanguard 401k balance. Overall process took 10 days (including weekends) and 7 of those days was waiting for Fidelity to mail me the check.

Could have been a best case scenario but you can’t beat a 3 day turnaround from Vanguard. I did use priority mail on the way to Vanguard (I think money well spent for 8 dollars).

Just my luck that these past 10 days have been very positive and I missed out on some of those gains. You win some and you lose some :greedy
I did a rollover from VG to Fidelity 401k a month ago, and got lucky that the dead period was during a market down time. A rare win for me. :happy

The paper check thing is pretty standard for these rollovers. I had the same from VG to Fidelity. The difference was that on the Fidelity side, I could take a picture of the check with my phone and not have to send them the check. The paperwork (rollover form) was done on-line on the Fido side. The process was done immediately.

All was not perfect. The vaunted Fidelity App crashed each time I took a picture with my Android 10 phone. To get it to work, I actually used my old phone (Android 9) and it worked. Fido isn't perfect either.

The funny thing is VG used to handle check photos without a phone. You could scan and send via secure messaging. I'm not sure if that is available anymore.
NYCaviator
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by NYCaviator »

Vanguard updated the iPhone app today, so there’s no longer a second Beacon app, just one “new” app. It is absolutely and inexcusably horrific. You cannot even buy funds from money in an external bank account, you can only buy with money already in your settlement fund. What’s even the point of offering a mobile app then?

On top of that, the website now has a banner ad and pop ups trying to get me to sign up for PAS. I shouldn’t have to click through that garbage every time I log in.

I can safely say, yes. Vanguard (the brokerage) has become so bad. This solidified my decision to switch to Schwab (if only I could get a rep on the phone to convert my fund shares to ETF shares).
UpperNwGuy
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by UpperNwGuy »

NYCaviator wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 7:03 pm (if only I could get a rep on the phone to convert my fund shares to ETF shares).
Yep, that's the Catch 22. You shouldn't leave without first making the conversion to ETF shares, but even the conversion has become a painful process. My solution is to stop adding new money to my Vanguard mutual funds. All new money goes to ETFs at Schwab and Fidelity.
bubbly
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by bubbly »

Tubes wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 7:12 am
bubbly wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 7:41 am Just rolled over a previous 401k from fidelity to current 401k in vanguard. Very smooth process even though fidelity insisted on mailing me the check which I then had to forward to vanguard with the rollover form. Called vanguard twice for confirmation and waited no more than 5 minutes, perhaps their workplace plan division is less busy than their regular customer service?

USPS courier tracking indicated that the check was delivered to their El Paso location yesterday morning. By the afternoon, the rollover was processing. This morning, it was processed and the balance was updated in the new vanguard 401k balance. Overall process took 10 days (including weekends) and 7 of those days was waiting for Fidelity to mail me the check.

Could have been a best case scenario but you can’t beat a 3 day turnaround from Vanguard. I did use priority mail on the way to Vanguard (I think money well spent for 8 dollars).

Just my luck that these past 10 days have been very positive and I missed out on some of those gains. You win some and you lose some :greedy
I did a rollover from VG to Fidelity 401k a month ago, and got lucky that the dead period was during a market down time. A rare win for me. :happy

The paper check thing is pretty standard for these rollovers. I had the same from VG to Fidelity. The difference was that on the Fidelity side, I could take a picture of the check with my phone and not have to send them the check. The paperwork (rollover form) was done on-line on the Fido side. The process was done immediately.

All was not perfect. The vaunted Fidelity App crashed each time I took a picture with my Android 10 phone. To get it to work, I actually used my old phone (Android 9) and it worked. Fido isn't perfect either.

The funny thing is VG used to handle check photos without a phone. You could scan and send via secure messaging. I'm not sure if that is available anymore.
Well consider me corrected. You definitely can beat a 3 day turnaround with checks if you do it via mobile. I’m surprised they accept checks with amounts that large just by taking a picture but the world is a high tech place now :happy
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Tubes
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Tubes »

bubbly wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 7:52 pm Well consider me corrected. You definitely can beat a 3 day turnaround with checks if you do it via mobile. I’m surprised they accept checks with amounts that large just by taking a picture but the world is a high tech place now :happy
Yep. It is hard to get used to. I don't even know if they have a limit.

The thing is, it ultimately has to clear with the other side (Vanguard). It doesn't say... but I'm also going to assume there's a standard clearing wait period before you can withdraw.

When filling out the on-line form, there is a pull-down from a list of institutions to roll-over from. I'm going to assume that if your institution isn't there, the on-line form won't work and it will ask you to go manual.

I liked the idea of not having to send this precious check in the mail. And as a bonus, I still have the check as a memento. :happy
NYCaviator
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by NYCaviator »

UpperNwGuy wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 7:19 pm
NYCaviator wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 7:03 pm (if only I could get a rep on the phone to convert my fund shares to ETF shares).
Yep, that's the Catch 22. You shouldn't leave without first making the conversion to ETF shares, but even the conversion has become a painful process. My solution is to stop adding new money to my Vanguard mutual funds. All new money goes to ETFs at Schwab and Fidelity.
That is my plan as well. Are you still using Vanguard ETFs, but at other brokerages?

I've been trying to get in touch with Vanguard to complete the conversion, but the hold times are insane. They don't even give you an estimated wait time or offer a "call you back" option, and I have to give up after about 45 mins. I really can't understand the continued love for Vanguard and the excuses for their poor IT and customer service. One could cut them a break during the early days of COVID, but not now. There is simply no excuse.
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anon_investor
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by anon_investor »

NYCaviator wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 5:39 pm
UpperNwGuy wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 7:19 pm
NYCaviator wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 7:03 pm (if only I could get a rep on the phone to convert my fund shares to ETF shares).
Yep, that's the Catch 22. You shouldn't leave without first making the conversion to ETF shares, but even the conversion has become a painful process. My solution is to stop adding new money to my Vanguard mutual funds. All new money goes to ETFs at Schwab and Fidelity.
That is my plan as well. Are you still using Vanguard ETFs, but at other brokerages?

I've been trying to get in touch with Vanguard to complete the conversion, but the hold times are insane. They don't even give you an estimated wait time or offer a "call you back" option, and I have to give up after about 45 mins. I really can't understand the continued love for Vanguard and the excuses for their poor IT and customer service. One could cut them a break during the early days of COVID, but not now. There is simply no excuse.
Try calling before 10am ET. My hold times during that time are usually closer to 15-30 minutes.
Thesaints
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Thesaints »

NYCaviator wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 7:03 pm Vanguard updated the iPhone app today, so there’s no longer a second Beacon app, just one “new” app. It is absolutely and inexcusably horrific. You cannot even buy funds from money in an external bank account, you can only buy with money already in your settlement fund. What’s even the point of offering a mobile app then?

On top of that, the website now has a banner ad and pop ups trying to get me to sign up for PAS. I shouldn’t have to click through that garbage every time I log in.

I can safely say, yes. Vanguard (the brokerage) has become so bad. This solidified my decision to switch to Schwab (if only I could get a rep on the phone to convert my fund shares to ETF shares).
New phone app is truly terrible, but at least it can still display the correct portfolio allocation, as opposed to the website.
The old phone app also could display the correct allocation and more info than the new one can and it had more functionalities, as you pointed out.
Last edited by Thesaints on Tue Nov 09, 2021 10:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
rossington
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by rossington »

Ok, so the only investment firm people are having issues with is Vanguard...
No one EVER has any issues with Fidelity, Schwab, E-Trade, etc....
Seriously???
"Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." Winston Churchill.
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William Million
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by William Million »

I know there are many different opinions on this topic. i can only offer my own.

Vanguard has slipped so far in customer service that I can't fathom that a young John Bogle would use them exclusively. I still prefer the admiral bond funds that Vanguard offers, but there is little reason to buy equities (or equity index funds) through Vanguard.

Those who defend Vanguard's customer service have not yet had the experience that many of the rest of us have endured.
NYCaviator
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by NYCaviator »

rossington wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 4:00 am Ok, so the only investment firm people are having issues with is Vanguard...
No one EVER has any issues with Fidelity, Schwab, E-Trade, etc....
Seriously???
People have certainly had issues from time to time with other brokerages, but Vanguard's issues are constant and getting worse. They've removed secure messaging, they've destroyed the mobile app, hold times are consistently 30-45+ minutes, etc. As other brokerages get better, Vanguard gets worse. Other than no-cost access to VG mutual funds, and a sense of nostalgia, there is nothing special that Vanguard offers.
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anon_investor
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by anon_investor »

NYCaviator wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 7:25 am
rossington wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 4:00 am Ok, so the only investment firm people are having issues with is Vanguard...
No one EVER has any issues with Fidelity, Schwab, E-Trade, etc....
Seriously???
People have certainly had issues from time to time with other brokerages, but Vanguard's issues are constant and getting worse. They've removed secure messaging, they've destroyed the mobile app, hold times are consistently 30-45+ minutes, etc. As other brokerages get better, Vanguard gets worse. Other than no-cost access to VG mutual funds, and a sense of nostalgia, there is nothing special that Vanguard offers.
Apparently people can't even open Vanguard accounts online.
fortunefavored
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by fortunefavored »

NYCaviator wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 7:25 am
rossington wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 4:00 am Ok, so the only investment firm people are having issues with is Vanguard...
No one EVER has any issues with Fidelity, Schwab, E-Trade, etc....
Seriously???
People have certainly had issues from time to time with other brokerages, but Vanguard's issues are constant and getting worse. They've removed secure messaging, they've destroyed the mobile app, hold times are consistently 30-45+ minutes, etc. As other brokerages get better, Vanguard gets worse. Other than no-cost access to VG mutual funds, and a sense of nostalgia, there is nothing special that Vanguard offers.
This is the root of it - they continue to make extremely bad decisions with no sign they are correcting them. After 20+ years I would never recommend a new investor use Vanguard.
sycamore
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by sycamore »

rossington wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 4:00 am Ok, so the only investment firm people are having issues with is Vanguard...
No one EVER has any issues with Fidelity, Schwab, E-Trade, etc....
Seriously???
I'm currently having an issue with E*Trade. I asked a question over the secure message facility, and waited 5 days because they said (on the web page) that it might take 3-5 days for a response. I got no response. I started an online chat asking the same question. The chat person said they'd look into my question and should take no more than 2 days response. On the 2nd day I got a response to the secure message saying someone else was looking into so they didn't think anything was needed from them. Nothing came of the chat either :(

So... yes, rossington, there are issues with other investment firms.
reisner
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by reisner »

Vanguard customer service has been unspeakably bad and time consuming for me since last October. This summer I moved my VG funds to Schwab. Service has been terrific, rofessional and timely, plus they paid me a $1000 bonus. I feel welcome there, and no longer did at VG.
leehamster
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by leehamster »

Ok here is a different experience from the main complaints here:
- fund conversion to ETF - easy, took a couple of phone calls and a few days to complete. Nearly immediate for US stock fund, the few days was to complete the international fund conversion.
- transfers to and from other brokerages - cumbersome mostly because it required medallion signature. I don't know of any brokerage that will do a transfer without paper and medallion signature.
- secure messaging - still works fine, I've used it twice in the last week. Not "removed" as reported above.
- the mobile app - I agree that launching the Beacon app was confusing, because it was a reduced feature set with a nice user interface. But I have never lost the ability to use the old app. The old app still has the many features that I have used for years -- it is not "destroyed."
- trading stocks & ETFs, purchasing or selling mutual funds - easy
- I set appointments via calendar if I want to talk to a rep. Most support I need comes via secure messaging in a reasonable response time (1 business day). I structure my interactions with Vanguard to avoid cold-calling their support phone line.
- Transferring money in and out of my bank account electronically - easy. I don't send checks in the mail to my brokerage. Recent government decisions seem to make the US postal service purposefully less reliable and timely.

Vanguard is a low-feature set, low-cost mutual fund company and brokerage. That works fine for me. I don't get upsold for services or more expensive options, except for some info provided on the web site in a pretty low key way. Vanguard continues to be a good fit for me. It also works well for extended family members, who I helped move away from Stifel Nicolaus when their broker started selling them expensive and inappropriate investments.

YMMV.
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anon_investor
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by anon_investor »

leehamster wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 5:32 pm Ok here is a different experience from the main complaints here:
- fund conversion to ETF - easy, took a couple of phone calls and a few days to complete. Nearly immediate for US stock fund, the few days was to complete the international fund conversion.
- transfers to and from other brokerages - cumbersome mostly because it required medallion signature. I don't know of any brokerage that will do a transfer without paper and medallion signature.
- secure messaging - still works fine, I've used it twice in the last week. Not "removed" as reported above.
- the mobile app - I agree that launching the Beacon app was confusing, because it was a reduced feature set with a nice user interface. But I have never lost the ability to use the old app. The old app still has the many features that I have used for years -- it is not "destroyed."
- trading stocks & ETFs, purchasing or selling mutual funds - easy
- I set appointments via calendar if I want to talk to a rep. Most support I need comes via secure messaging in a reasonable response time (1 business day). I structure my interactions with Vanguard to avoid cold-calling their support phone line.
- Transferring money in and out of my bank account electronically - easy. I don't send checks in the mail to my brokerage. Recent government decisions seem to make the US postal service purposefully less reliable and timely.

Vanguard is a low-feature set, low-cost mutual fund company and brokerage. That works fine for me. I don't get upsold for services or more expensive options, except for some info provided on the web site in a pretty low key way. Vanguard continues to be a good fit for me. It also works well for extended family members, who I helped move away from Stifel Nicolaus when their broker started selling them expensive and inappropriate investments.

YMMV.
I transferred Vanguard ETFs from Vanguard to Merrill Edge entirely electronically without any paper forms or medallion signature guarantee. I initiated an ACATS transfer from within my Merrill Edge account. It took about a week and the cost basis transferred properly.
leehamster
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by leehamster »

anon_investor wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 5:43 pm
I transferred Vanguard ETFs from Vanguard to Merrill Edge entirely electronically without any paper forms or medallion signature guarantee. I initiated an ACATS transfer from within my Merrill Edge account. It took about a week and the cost basis transferred properly.
News to me, thanks.
Made me look up this: https://www.finra.org/investors/learn-t ... er-process

My past transfers have just been individual securities to recipient accounts that have different owners or combination of owners. That may explain the restrictions I've run into.

Cheers.
ctjudge
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by ctjudge »

If you are holding closed funds such as Capital Opportunity or Prime Cap and want to continue investing in them, what are the options if you move away from Vanguard?
nalor511
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by nalor511 »

leehamster wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 5:48 pm
anon_investor wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 5:43 pm
I transferred Vanguard ETFs from Vanguard to Merrill Edge entirely electronically without any paper forms or medallion signature guarantee. I initiated an ACATS transfer from within my Merrill Edge account. It took about a week and the cost basis transferred properly.
News to me, thanks.
Made me look up this: https://www.finra.org/investors/learn-t ... er-process

My past transfers have just been individual securities to recipient accounts that have different owners or combination of owners. That may explain the restrictions I've run into.

Cheers.
Transferring into VG is fraught, or can be. Transferring out was a pleasure
pasadena
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by pasadena »

A small data point. I wanted to convert my mutual funds to ETF (thinking of consolidating everything to Fidelity). I sent VG a private message, mostly to see if they would respond - they haven't (it was last Saturday). I called this morning (at about noon ET). The wait was supposedly about 30 minutes so I chose the callback option.

They called me back within the stated timeframe (25 minutes) and the rep transferred me to a brokerage specialist, for which I waited a few minutes.

All in all that call took 8 minutes - time to go through security questions, waiting in the brokerage line, and doing the conversion.

This was the first time I ever had to call them in 6 years, and after reading all the horror stories, I was fully expecting it to be a painful experience. It was anything but.
vanguarder45
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by vanguarder45 »

After being with Vang a long time, I finally became a Flagship Member (NOT Flagship Select) . This took me until I was in my 60's. On my latest phone call I was told that I no longer have my personal rep, but my calls would be answered by "The Flagship Team". Further, I no longer had my free access to a CFP. I was disappointed to hear all of this, but was even more disappointed that this came without notice.
As with others on this site, I have slow phone access (for the once per year that I call). I am wondering if, other than some lower fees, that Flagship status gets me any better phone service or better anything else.
MoonOrb
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by MoonOrb »

Well, I have in fact had a really negative experience with Vanguard--this had to do with a 401k plan, not my other investments, and I of course have no say in what 401k administrator my company uses.

But, in short:

I had a lengthy call with a Vanguard rep to do two fundamental things:

1. Set my contribution rate (it was impossible to do this online)
2. Choose the funds

After the 2 month period where I cannot contribute to the 401k elapsed and my contributions start, I notice two things:

1. The contribution rate is wrong, by a magnitude of, like, 7 or 8
2. The contributions did not go into the funds I selected

I'm really frustrated--this is a matter of fundamental competence and it should be easy. So, I've sent them a message. It's possible they may be able to explain it and give me the confidence I need that they won't make other errors going forward, but I'm not sure. Right now I think I'm likely just going to move it all to Fidelity.
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Leif
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Leif »

vanguarder45 wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 10:59 amI am wondering if, other than some lower fees, that Flagship status gets me any better phone service or better anything else.
Welcome to the forum!

As a previous flagship member, in my experience, no.
xb7
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by xb7 »

I've been following this stuff and thinking for a while now that at some point I might encounter the "straw that breaks the camel's back" and switch brokerages, probably to Fidelity (?). But I just had an encounter with Fidelity that leaves me wondering.

My son-in-law just opened a 529 plan for my grandson at Fidelity, and I want to contribute to it. Fidelity offers two options to do so. One is by what they call an "e-check", which seems to boil down to an ACH transfer with extra stuff that they layer on top. The other option is to mail a paper check.

My reaction to the paper check is that I could also chisel onto stone tablets or eschew electricity in favor of (whale) oil filled lanterns. More specifically, by the time my grandson gets to college, I'll be in my 80's, and so would prefer an automatic approach.

For their "e-check", I'm told that I have to unfreeze my credit at all of the agencies each time I want to contribute. This really leaves me scratching my head. In an age where we're seeing data breaches all the time, IMO it's gonzo not to have your credit frozen, so this requirement is a puzzling PITA. They also ask me for additional information about myself --- stuff that the other 529 plan for my other grandson does not. The guy told me this is needed for banks to verify information, but I know this isn't needed for 529 ACH, or 529 plans in general. Are people using 529 plans to launder money or something ... ?!? Maybe there's some logic there that I'm missing, but it doesn't give me a great feeling for Fidelity. Anyway, none of this seems necessary or reasonable given that I can bypass it by sending a paper check.

When I first called them about this, I used the phone number I found on the 529 page, and was initially pleased when the robo voice told me I had gotten to the part of Fidelity that's about 529 plans. Then I had to hollar at it a little to get to a human being --- you know the drill: Artificial unintelligence says "Please tell me how I can help you", then when inevitably it doesn't understand, the response is to ask ME to try again to explain. But I did get a human pretty fast.

Turns out that human worked in their 401(k) department and couldn't help me. He promised to stay on the line until I got to someone in the 529 department, but didn't. Then I waited 15 minutes while the same useless and annoying announcement played about every minute or two. And the guy I finally did get told me that, from my perspective at least, they have no really convenient and reasonable way that I can contribute.

So. I'm not so very keen on Fidelity after this. It doesn't seem to me that they really want to think carefully through the user experience either.
JnyVuko
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by JnyVuko »

namajones wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:40 am I read a lot of posts these days from people who are abandoning Vanguard and moving their funds elsewhere. Is it the general consensus that Vanguard is worth leaving? I ask because I have a dormant, 0 balance account there, but I'm considering moving some funds in simply to buy a Vanguard mutual fund without having to pay a commission through a brokerage.

I do remember when I used that Vanguard account years ago I had issues with 1099s that were delivered inexplicably late in the tax filing season (I thought they were required to be available by Feb. 15) and also with funds taking up to 5 days to get into and out of the account, whereas with my brokerage they show up the very next day. Are these the kinds of issues that people are still having problems with?

Thanks.
I'm a happy Vanguard client/customer for 10+ years. My future plans include using them exclusively where practical.
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