Is Vanguard so bad?

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NET1
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by NET1 »

It's not that Vanguard is bad. It's that their technology is not up to par with other brokerages and they don't seem to have any focus on catching up - or even being remotely competitive.

I'm in the process of moving everything over to Fidelity. Better app, better platform in general, great FI services. Most of my transactions were automated mutual fund investments which Vanguard does extremely well. Now I just log in once every two weeks and buy the $ amount (w/ fractional share) equivalent in Vanguard ETFs.
fourwheelcycle
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by fourwheelcycle »

I have been happy with Vanguard since I first opened my account in the early 1980s. My wife and all of our now-adult children and their spouses have accounts at Vanguard. They are all linked with my account and we share the same advisor. I also manage my elderly father's account at Vanguard, also served by the same advisor. I have full transaction authorization for my wife's account and my father's account, but I have only asked for, and received, View Only permission for our children's and in-law accounts.
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SmileyFace
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by SmileyFace »

bertilak wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:13 pm
KyleAAA wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:06 pm They're alright. But since so many of us primarily own ETFs these days, it's easy to own Vanguard funds at better brokerages without paying any fees.
Instead of quotung and counter-quoting anecdotal evidence about "better brokerages," perhaps we should have a reliable firm do a study. Oh, wait! Already done, by J.D.Power: viewtopic.php?p=6274906#p6274906
JD power is a reliable firm? I thought they were widely known for putting the most undependable cars at the top of the dependability ratings and were pretty widely disrespected by Bogleheads (can't find those other threads).
Here's Kiplinger's list showing Fidelity and Schwab as #1 and #2: https://www.kiplinger.com/investing/wea ... okers-2021
(Sorry - Vanguard didn't make top 5)
Retired Bill
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Retired Bill »

No problems here. I seem to recall reading somewhere that Vanguard has acknowledged the customer service has not kept up with the growth of the company. On the other hand also read that J D Power customer service rankings of investment firms still has Vanguard as best of the bunch. Customer service as a whole is just not what it once was across all types of businesses, and it seems to me the best customer service reps are the ones handling the phone lines for "new accounts" rather than "existing customers" My last experience of moving an account was about a year ago at this time from Fidelity to Vanguard, and Vanguard's team explained to what I needed to do and the time it would take to accomplish. Happy to report the transfer went smoothly with no problems.
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ruralavalon
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by ruralavalon »

UpperNwGuy wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:01 pm
ruralavalon wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:46 pm For anecdotes about Fidelity see: Too Rated Firms, "Fidelity Investments Customer Reviews [2021]" , link.
For anecdotes about Vanguard see: Top Rated Firms, "Vanguard Customer Complaints and Reviews."
https://topratedfirms.com/brokers/custo ... eview.aspx

Vanguard's reviews are just as bad as Fidelity's on this website. The website is nothing but a place where malcontents bash companies.
My point being that both firms generate sad tales of bad customer service.

In my opinion Vanguard, Fidelity and Schwab are all good choices for fund firms to use.

These sorts of complaints are not unique to Vanguard. As I said before:
ruralavalon wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 4:47 pm In my opinion anecdotes about issues encountered can be informative but are not very helpful in seeing if there is a real problem, or not. Apparently all brokerages have experienced problems recently. According to J. D. Power "With more than 10 million new brokerage accounts opened in 2020 as mainstream investor interest skyrocketed during the pandemic, retail brokerage firms struggled to deliver a seamless customer experience."
J.D. Power is not just a "a place where malcontents bash companies".
Last edited by ruralavalon on Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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CedarWaxWing
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by CedarWaxWing »

SmileyFace wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:53 pm
bertilak wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:13 pm
KyleAAA wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:06 pm They're alright. But since so many of us primarily own ETFs these days, it's easy to own Vanguard funds at better brokerages without paying any fees.
Instead of quotung and counter-quoting anecdotal evidence about "better brokerages," perhaps we should have a reliable firm do a study. Oh, wait! Already done, by J.D.Power: viewtopic.php?p=6274906#p6274906
JD power is a reliable firm? I thought they were widely known for putting the most undependable cars at the top of the dependability ratings and were pretty widely disrespected by Bogleheads (can't find those other threads).
Here's Kiplinger's list showing Fidelity and Schwab as #1 and #2: https://www.kiplinger.com/investing/wea ... okers-2021
(Sorry - Vanguard didn't make top 5)

But the article said: "T. Rowe Price and Vanguard declined to participate, as did two participants in last year’s survey, TradeStation and Wells Trade."
UpperNwGuy
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by UpperNwGuy »

ruralavalon wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:04 pm
UpperNwGuy wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:01 pm
ruralavalon wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:46 pm For anecdotes about Fidelity see: Too Rated Firms, "Fidelity Investments Customer Reviews [2021]" , link.
For anecdotes about Vanguard see: Top Rated Firms, "Vanguard Customer Complaints and Reviews."
https://topratedfirms.com/brokers/custo ... eview.aspx

Vanguard's reviews are just as bad as Fidelity's on this website. The website is nothing but a place where malcontents bash companies.
My point being that both firms generate sad tales of bad customer service.

In my opinion Vanguard, Fidelity and Schwab are all good choices for fund firms to use.

These sorts of complaints are not unique to Vanguard. As I said before:
ruralavalon wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 4:47 pm In my opinion anecdotes about issues encountered can be informative but are not very helpful in seeing if there is a real problem, or not. Apparently all brokerages have experienced problems recently. According to J. D. Power "With more than 10 million new brokerage accounts opened in 2020 as mainstream investor interest skyrocketed during the pandemic, retail brokerage firms struggled to deliver a seamless customer experience."
J.D. Power is not just a "a place where malcontents bash companies".
topratedfirms.com is a J D Power website? I don't see any mention of J D Power. Even if I did, I would not be impressed. J D Power is full of controversy.
CletusCaddy
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by CletusCaddy »

NET1 wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:18 pm It's not that Vanguard is bad. It's that their technology is not up to par with other brokerages and they don't seem to have any focus on catching up - or even being remotely competitive.
This is the most relevant issue mentioned here.

Your #1 criteria for choosing a financial services provider should be security. Not costs. Not customer service.

The fact that Vanguard still does not offer two factor authentication through an app like Authy should tell you all you need to know about their prioritization of cybersecurity.
CedarWaxWing
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by CedarWaxWing »

When I was new out of residency for the first 3 years I was independent, then about 15 of us formed a group practice and the following year we signed onto a 401 K program with a so called financial advisor... he was picked by a group who sold him to the rest of us... but as is often the case the people who are most interested in running things are not necessarily the most qualified or the most knowledgeable. Within 3 years one of the older guys in the group noticed front loads and 12 b 1 fees on his statements, and high E/R costs and made a fuss. The guy was gone withing 6 more months and then a the folks on the 401k committee again picked another CFP who ran his own company.... over and over again year after year his recommended funds (all active) did worse than the index, and his fees were high...and hard to even determine. He did not add any value to our 401 k plans, but fed us all a lot of BS in his quarterly summaries which were so poorly written as to not be worth reading.

Eventually we went with Vanguard... who has been very honest, straight forward, with a high performing list of mostly index funds... we have been very happy with the service, and the very low fees. Returns have been basically market returns... which the other two clowns could not figure how to do. All they had to do was use indexes at VG or Fidelity. That goof ball even had a couple of index funds in the lineup... and over any significant period of time did better than his "recommendations".

I have been with Vg in my own investments for decades with no regrets, but it took me 15 years to hear about or understand index funds.... and three active Vg funds in my portfolio are also doing fine but I still use mostly their index funds for the mainstay of my portfolios.

They are low cost, honest, and have excellent index funds... that is enough for me.
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by nisiprius »

bertilak wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:13 pm
KyleAAA wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:06 pm They're alright. But since so many of us primarily own ETFs these days, it's easy to own Vanguard funds at better brokerages without paying any fees.
Instead of quotung and counter-quoting anecdotal evidence about "better brokerages," perhaps we should have a reliable firm do a study. Oh, wait! Already done, by J.D.Power: viewtopic.php?p=6274906#p6274906
I recently tried a search on something like "ratings of brokerages," and the main impression I got is that a) a lot of websites are doing them, b) the top ten or so brokerages must be pretty close in every way, and c) there isn't a lot of consistency in the rankings across different... rankers. But, yes, the J. D. Power rating--and others--are inconsistent with the hypothesis that Vanguard is a terrible stinker. Vanguard must be sorta-kinda-pretty-much OK for most customers.
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UpperNwGuy
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by UpperNwGuy »

Many of us view J D Power as having the same credibility as Edward Jones.
rtt22
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by rtt22 »

khangaroo wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:03 pm My biggest pet peeve is I have to authenticate EVERY TIME I log in. I check the remember me every time and I always go on either on my phone or laptop, nothing else. But yet, still need to authenticate every dang time.
That used to happen to me and the reason was I got in and out of VPN so it would appear to Vanguard that I was logging in from different places. I fixed the problem by always using one browser (e.g. Chrome) to log in to Vanguard when on VPN for office work, and always use another browser (e.g. Firefox) to log in to Vanguard when not on VPN. Since then, I'm no longer prompted for 2FA each time I log in.
Bama12
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Bama12 »

Vanguard only for me!
Northern Flicker
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Northern Flicker »

khangaroo wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:03 pm My biggest pet peeve is I have to authenticate EVERY TIME I log in. I check the remember me every time and I always go on either on my phone or laptop, nothing else. But yet, still need to authenticate every dang time.
If your phone or laptop is compromised, do you want the attacker subsequently to have access to your Vanguard account without authenticating?

The "remember me" feature should at most defeat 2FA only, but best practice would be to omit the "remember me" feature from the web application altogether.
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Gnirk »

We’ve been with Vanguard for over 20 years, and are happy with them. When we’ve needed to reach out for assistance, they’ve always been able to help. We still have access to a dedicated rep due to Flagship status and that is a plus because we can set up an appointment with her via secure messaging.
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namajones
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by namajones »

colodane wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:01 pm
But, for new investors, I would recommend also looking at Schwab and Fidelity.
Interesting that Schwab gets mentioned a lot. They weren't on my radar until they bought TD Ameritrade.
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by ruralavalon »

UpperNwGuy wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:16 pm
ruralavalon wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:04 pm
UpperNwGuy wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:01 pm
ruralavalon wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:46 pm For anecdotes about Fidelity see: Too Rated Firms, "Fidelity Investments Customer Reviews [2021]" , link.
For anecdotes about Vanguard see: Top Rated Firms, "Vanguard Customer Complaints and Reviews."
https://topratedfirms.com/brokers/custo ... eview.aspx

Vanguard's reviews are just as bad as Fidelity's on this website. The website is nothing but a place where malcontents bash companies.
My point being that both firms generate sad tales of bad customer service.

In my opinion Vanguard, Fidelity and Schwab are all good choices for fund firms to use.

These sorts of complaints are not unique to Vanguard. As I said before:
ruralavalon wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 4:47 pm In my opinion anecdotes about issues encountered can be informative but are not very helpful in seeing if there is a real problem, or not. Apparently all brokerages have experienced problems recently. According to J. D. Power "With more than 10 million new brokerage accounts opened in 2020 as mainstream investor interest skyrocketed during the pandemic, retail brokerage firms struggled to deliver a seamless customer experience."
J.D. Power is not just a "a place where malcontents bash companies".
topratedfirms.com is a J D Power website? I don't see any mention of J D Power. Even if I did, I would not be impressed. J D Power is full of controversy.
Please see my quote above (Thu Oct 14, 2021 4:47 pm), and prior post with link.

What did you see wrong with the methodology of J. D. Powers' survey?
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anon_investor
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by anon_investor »

Gnirk wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 10:48 pm We’ve been with Vanguard for over 20 years, and are happy with them. When we’ve needed to reach out for assistance, they’ve always been able to help. We still have access to a dedicated rep due to Flagship status and that is a plus because we can set up an appointment with her via secure messaging.
They took away the dedicated rep for most Flagship folks...
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Jimbo Moneybags »

Glad to see this thread posted, there has been a dearth of feedback on this site about people's satisfaction or dissatisfaction with Vanguard.
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Nowizard »

Customer service issues are common and would never overrule fund choice if a specific company offered those preferred. Vanguard is huge, does have some customer service issues, apparently, though we have never experienced the slightest misstep. There is a reason it is huge, and its size relates to the fact that there will be more complaints if more use a particular company even if the percentage of happy/unhappy consumers is the same as with a smaller company.

Tim
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by fishandgolf »

Dave55 wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 10:23 am Never a problem with Vanguard.

"Perfection is unattainable".

Dave
+100.....couldn't agree more. Never had an issue with Vanguard. Dave55 is correct......'Perfection is unattainable'! :sharebeer
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bertilak
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by bertilak »

Nowizard wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:57 am Customer service issues are common and would never overrule fund choice if a specific company offered those preferred. Vanguard is huge, does have some customer service issues, apparently, though we have never experienced the slightest misstep. There is a reason it is huge, and its size relates to the fact that there will be more complaints if more use a particular company even if the percentage of happy/unhappy consumers is the same as with a smaller company.

Tim
Since ETFs (Vanguard's and other's) are readily available just about anywhere, companies, including Vanguard, need to pay close attention to customer service as that is becoming the main thing that distinguishes one company from another. It has always been important but it is becoming even more so lately.

At one point costs may have been the biggest distinguishing factor but times and circumstances change. Costs (still) matter but so does customer service, which is, probably, bubbling up to the top.
May neither drought nor rain nor blizzard disturb the joy juice in your gizzard. -- Squire Omar Barker (aka S.O.B.), the Cowboy Poet
Lastrun
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Lastrun »

Jimbo Moneybags wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:29 am Glad to see this thread posted, there has been a dearth of feedback on this site about people's satisfaction or dissatisfaction with Vanguard.
Not me, not sure why some of these threads get shut down and others not. When you start arguing whether the rating companies are legitimate or not (e.g., J.D. Powers) I think you are at the point of non-actionable (trolling) general rant.

viewtopic.php?t=346006
viewtopic.php?t=347384
wander
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by wander »

We never had problem with Vanguard. " A lot" compared to million customers is not really a lot.
blackburnian
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by blackburnian »

I have no problem with the online platform. But here is my experience trying to reach someone at Vg by phone to transfer stock to a charity (not from a DAF, and cannot be done online):
Yesterday: gave up after 3 hours on hold.
This morning: reached a representative after 20 min, who transferred me to department 2, who transferred me to department 3, who said it was the wrong department and asked who had sent me there (no, I didn't know her name). He put me on hold with department 4; at that point, none of the phone keys were registering, so I could not choose the option for a call back. I hung up after 30 min bc I have a meeting to attend.
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by bondsr4me »

bertilak wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:26 am
Nowizard wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:57 am Customer service issues are common and would never overrule fund choice if a specific company offered those preferred. Vanguard is huge, does have some customer service issues, apparently, though we have never experienced the slightest misstep. There is a reason it is huge, and its size relates to the fact that there will be more complaints if more use a particular company even if the percentage of happy/unhappy consumers is the same as with a smaller company.

Tim
Since ETFs (Vanguard's and other's) are readily available just about anywhere, companies, including Vanguard, need to pay close attention to customer service as that is becoming the main thing that distinguishes one company from another. It has always been important but it is becoming even more so lately.

At one point costs may have been the biggest distinguishing factor but times and circumstances change. Costs (still) matter but so does customer service, which is, probably, bubbling up to the top.
+1000
I totally agree with you about the customer service.
Here is a real life example regarding customer service.
Years ago, my wife and I purchased a new vehicle from a local Chevy/GMC dealer.
This dealership is very big in our area.
We had to take the vehicle in for an issue with the passenger side bucket seat for a second time.
The service manager took us when we went in. He was a complete azzz.
He made my wife feel stupid about this particular issue, which totally pissed us off.
Long story short, we vowed to NEVER do business with them again...and we haven't...and won't.
So for us, whether it's car dealership or a brokerage company, customer service is paramount.
A new vehicle is the same, no matter which dealer you buy from.
The customer service is an entirely different story.
The same goes for ETF's. VTI at Schwab or Fidelity is the same VTI as at Vanguard.
For us, customer service is extremely important AFAIC.
Have a great weekend.
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by student »

Cubs Fan wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:33 am I transferred VTI in the amount of $100,000.00 from Vanguard to Merrill Edge over one year ago and received a $900.00 bonus from Merrill Edge. I am now in the process of transferring another investment in the amount of over $200,000.00 to Merrill Edge and will receive a $600.00 bonus. Because I have over $100,000.00 at Merrill Edge my entire banking with Bank of America is free. This includes a safety deposit box, Preferred Platinum Rewards credit card money back and everything else I receive from Bank of America. If Fidelity or Schwab offers a bonus I will certainly consider transferring a Vanguard ETF to them as well. I do not have a problem with Vanguard, and I understand that telephone wait times are long everywhere.
But do be careful about pushing money out of BoA accounts, I think there is $3 fee. Pushing from ME is free.
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by bertilak »

bondsr4me wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:11 am Here is a real life example regarding customer service.
...
Have a great weekend.
Here is my story about great customer service ...

When I was pretty young I got my first speeding ticket. I called State Farm to ask if this was going to affect my insurance. The answer: "Not if we don't hear about it!" My reply? "Sorry, wrong number!"

State Farm has been good to me in other ways so I have been with them for decades.

You have a great weekend as well.
May neither drought nor rain nor blizzard disturb the joy juice in your gizzard. -- Squire Omar Barker (aka S.O.B.), the Cowboy Poet
student
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by student »

I also left Vanguard recently. There is nothing negative that I have experienced. I left because I wanted to consolidate and I want at least one of the following: 24/7 customer service and local office.
student
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by student »

bertilak wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:41 am
bondsr4me wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:11 am Here is a real life example regarding customer service.
...
Have a great weekend.
Here is my story about great customer service ...

When I was pretty young I got my first speeding ticket. I called State Farm to ask if this was going to affect my insurance. The answer: "Not if we don't hear about it!" My reply? "Sorry, wrong number!"

State Farm has been good to me in other ways so I have been with them for decades.

You have a great weekend as well.
lol
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by bondsr4me »

bertilak wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:41 am
bondsr4me wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:11 am Here is a real life example regarding customer service.
...
Have a great weekend.
Here is my story about great customer service ...

When I was pretty young I got my first speeding ticket. I called State Farm to ask if this was going to affect my insurance. The answer: "Not if we don't hear about it!" My reply? "Sorry, wrong number!"

State Farm has been good to me in other ways so I have been with them for decades.

You have a great weekend as well.
:sharebeer
CrossOverGuy
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by CrossOverGuy »

It's because John Bogle started Vanguard and made sure its index funds were run for pretty much cost plus low administrative costs that you now have options like Fidelity, Schwab and others to turn to since they've added some similar low-cost index funds. Brokers and investment banks were (and still are) very happy to charge high commissions, high loads on buying and selling mutual funds, etc. until Bogle forced a lot of them into competition with his company, which allowed investors to own small stakes in hundreds of stocks or bonds for way under 1 percentage in one fund alone. Now, if you are having trouble accessing your money or if someone really messed up a transaction or you keep getting untenable service, I can understand perhaps wanting to move your investment elsewhere. There many kinds of changes in investments and policies that Jack Bogle himself didn't really approve of when he was in essence forced out running his own company to some position resembling an "Of Counsel" in a law firm. Plus other changes have come in terms of marketing and various funds he most likely wouldn't have approved of since his passing. But the idea of a low-cost investment company with all its virtues wouldn't have given you or any one else the kinds of competing options available now in existence if Bogle hadn't created Vanguard.
Last edited by CrossOverGuy on Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:18 am, edited 3 times in total.
02nz
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by 02nz »

sport wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:44 am No Vanguard is not so bad. They have some faults, but they are not as bad as some posters have indicated. Some people just like to complain. Perhaps some of them have other reasons to put Vanguard in a bad light.
Ah, the evergreen Bogleheads.org response to any complaint about Vanguard, an attack on the person rather than dealing with facts. Decide for yourself if I "just like to complain" or have some ulterior motive: viewtopic.php?t=261539

OP, you don't have to hold Vanguard funds at Vanguard. The indexing operation is great, the brokerage operation is bottom of the barrel. Vanguard has made clear they have basically zero interest in retail customers unless they pay for PAS. Given that you can buy and hold almost all of their index funds as ETFs anywhere for free, why would anyone use Vanguard the brokerage?
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by bikechuck »

namajones wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:45 am
sureshoe wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:44 am
Keep to a single brokerage as much as possible for simplicity.
That's my inclination, too, but I prefer mutual funds to ETFs, and I bristle at having to pay a fee at Ameritrade/Schwab to buy a Vanguard fund.

I also like how you can set up automatic periodic withdrawals at Vanguard. I don't see that possibility at TD.
Can you say more about why you prefer mutual funds to ETFs? I have mutual funds with Vanguard and Vanguard ETFs with another broker. Since I am an investor and not a trader who only rebalances on infrequent occasions I can't really see much difference and a reason to prefer one over another but perhaps I am missing something and if so I would be open to learning.
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by bertilak »

bikechuck wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:22 am Can you say more about why you prefer mutual funds to ETFs?
You might want to check the Wiki on this topic: https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/ETFs_vs_mutual_funds

I started with traditional mutual funds and have seen no reason to change. Might have been the other way around, though.
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by ruralavalon »

bertilak wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:32 am
bikechuck wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:22 am Can you say more about why you prefer mutual funds to ETFs?
You might want to check the Wiki on this topic: https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/ETFs_vs_mutual_funds

I started with traditional mutual funds and have seen no reason to change. Might have been the other way around, though.
I prefer regular mutual funds over exchange traded funds (ETFs) because the trading mechanics are simpler, and it's also easy to set up automatic investment of new contributions and automatic reinvestment of dividends.

Also, I am used to using regular mutual funds and see no reason to change.

The choice between regular mutual funds and ETFs is largely a matter of person preference.
"Everything should be as simple as it is, but not simpler." - Albert Einstein | Wiki article link: Bogleheads® investment philosophy
drzzzzz
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by drzzzzz »

To the OP I think the answer is it depends. If you want particular Vanguard mutual funds that can't be found elsewhere then stay with them to buy those mutual funds. If you can do it some other way, then you have multiple options. I think where Vanguard now fails is that as our portfolio has become more complex, Vanguard was not able to solve issues in a timely fashion. What we need/want is someone dedicated to our accounts who is easily accessible with a good knowledge base. We now have accounts at Vanguard, Schwab, and Fidelity. I can easily email or direct dial our reps when I have questions at Fidelity or Schwab and they or their assistants get the task done in record time. It's all about customer service for us, not Vanguard's products (which are great, but now similar to all the competitors). I think it also depends on how complicated your portfolio grows to and your level of expectations. Can you call after business hours? Can you call on a weekend? Can you get a specialist on the phone to discuss an issue after the initial call? Will they call you back? Is there a chat feature? Can you go to a physical location? You decide what is important to you and what you need.
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Eric
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Eric »

bertilak wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:13 pm
KyleAAA wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:06 pm They're alright. But since so many of us primarily own ETFs these days, it's easy to own Vanguard funds at better brokerages without paying any fees.
Instead of quotung and counter-quoting anecdotal evidence about "better brokerages," perhaps we should have a reliable firm do a study. Oh, wait! Already done, by J.D.Power: viewtopic.php?p=6274906#p6274906
That's fair, but note that the survey weighted:
seven factors (in order of importance): trust; digital channels; the ability to manage wealth how and when I want; products and services; value for fees; people; and problem resolution
So if I'm reading that right, the least important factor was "problem resolution." That goes to what most of the complaints in these threads are about: customer service. By contrast, the most important factor was "trust," and Vanguard understandably excels there among self-directed investors. So while the J.D. Power survey is more undoubtedly more systematic, it's important to account for how it's weighting the different factors.
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Vanguard User »

Do I need to leave Vanguard? I have a taxable account with VTSAX in it. Everything else is at Fidelity.
student
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by student »

CrossOverGuy wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:14 am It's because John Bogle started Vanguard and made sure its index funds were run for pretty much cost plus low administrative costs that you now have options like Fidelity, Schwab and others to turn to since they've added some similar low-cost index funds. Brokers and investment banks were (and still are) very happy to charge high commissions, high loads on buying and selling mutual funds, etc. until Bogle forced a lot of them into competition with his company, which allowed investors to own small stakes in hundreds of stocks or bonds for way under 1 percentage in one fund alone. Now, if you are having trouble accessing your money or if someone really messed up a transaction or you keep getting untenable service, I can understand perhaps wanting to move your investment elsewhere. There many kinds of changes in investments and policies that Jack Bogle himself didn't really approve of when he was in essence forced out running his own company to some position resembling an "Of Counsel" in a law firm. Plus other changes have come in terms of marketing and various funds he most likely wouldn't have approved of since his passing. But the idea of a low-cost investment company with all its virtues wouldn't have given you or any one else the kinds of competing options available now in existence if Bogle hadn't created Vanguard.
All of these comments are accurate. But the question is since this is no longer "Bogle's company," should we still trust it and like it enough to overlook deficiency is other areas?
Last edited by student on Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by SmileyFace »

Vanguard User wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:41 pm Do I need to leave Vanguard? I have a taxable account with VTSAX in it. Everything else is at Fidelity.
Not sure if you are serious but if you want to consolidate to Fidelity you can convert your VTSAX to VTI at Vanguard (non-taxable conversion) and then transfer it over to Fidelity. At Fidelity you can buy fractional shares of VTI so can continue buying it like a MF there.
I haven't done this myself yet but planning to.
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by marcopolo »

SmileyFace wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:59 pm
Vanguard User wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:41 pm Do I need to leave Vanguard? I have a taxable account with VTSAX in it. Everything else is at Fidelity.
Not sure if you are serious but if you want to consolidate to Fidelity you can convert your VTSAX to VTI at Vanguard (non-taxable conversion) and then transfer it over to Fidelity. At Fidelity you can buy fractional shares of VTI so can continue buying it like a MF there.
I haven't done this myself yet but planning to.
It seems like you have been "planning" to do this for some time now. Curious, what are you waiting for?
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.
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Cheez-It Guy
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Cheez-It Guy »

Vanguard User wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:41 pm Do I need to leave Vanguard? I have a taxable account with VTSAX in it. Everything else is at Fidelity.
The biggest concern is it would make your username a total misnomer.
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by SmileyFace »

marcopolo wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:51 pm
SmileyFace wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:59 pm
Vanguard User wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:41 pm Do I need to leave Vanguard? I have a taxable account with VTSAX in it. Everything else is at Fidelity.
Not sure if you are serious but if you want to consolidate to Fidelity you can convert your VTSAX to VTI at Vanguard (non-taxable conversion) and then transfer it over to Fidelity. At Fidelity you can buy fractional shares of VTI so can continue buying it like a MF there.
I haven't done this myself yet but planning to.
It seems like you have been "planning" to do this for some time now. Curious, what are you waiting for?
Well over the last 5 months my Mom's cancer came back, she went back to chemo, then to the hospital for complications, then became too weak for further treatment, so then she went into Hospice Care, then passed away. Now I have prioritized settling her matters and helping my Dad get set up paying bills, changing beneficiaries, etc. I only have so much headspace to be making calls and tracking changes so deprioritized my own stuff for awhile to get my Dad's straightened out. I am now dealing with Vanguard for his accounts (not large balances but...) - a bit of a pain because their support isn't 24/7, you can only seemingly change beneficiaries of nonretirement accounts online. We called and asked about his nonretirment account (as others report - long hold times, reps answer and don't seem confident in how they respond). It seems that for nonretirement accounts there is paperwork you need to do by mail - they sent him a package of materials I need to go thru this weekend.
I can only track and do so much at once and priorities change.
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by marcopolo »

SmileyFace wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:17 pm
marcopolo wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:51 pm
SmileyFace wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:59 pm
Vanguard User wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:41 pm Do I need to leave Vanguard? I have a taxable account with VTSAX in it. Everything else is at Fidelity.
Not sure if you are serious but if you want to consolidate to Fidelity you can convert your VTSAX to VTI at Vanguard (non-taxable conversion) and then transfer it over to Fidelity. At Fidelity you can buy fractional shares of VTI so can continue buying it like a MF there.
I haven't done this myself yet but planning to.
It seems like you have been "planning" to do this for some time now. Curious, what are you waiting for?
Well over the last 5 months my Mom's cancer came back, she went back to chemo, then to the hospital for complications, then became too weak for further treatment, so then she went into Hospice Care, then passed away. Now I have prioritized settling her matters and helping my Dad get set up paying bills, changing beneficiaries, etc. I only have so much headspace to be making calls and tracking changes so deprioritized my own stuff for awhile to get my Dad's straightened out. I am now dealing with Vanguard for his accounts (not large balances but...) - a bit of a pain because their support isn't 24/7, you can only seemingly change beneficiaries of nonretirement accounts online. We called and asked about his nonretirment account (as others report - long hold times, reps answer and don't seem confident in how they respond). It seems that for nonretirement accounts there is paperwork you need to do by mail - they sent him a package of materials I need to go thru this weekend.
I can only track and do so much at once and priorities change.
My condolences. Hope you are able to get through this transition without unecesssary added complications.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by bondsr4me »

SmileyFace wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:17 pm
marcopolo wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:51 pm
SmileyFace wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:59 pm
Vanguard User wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:41 pm Do I need to leave Vanguard? I have a taxable account with VTSAX in it. Everything else is at Fidelity.
Not sure if you are serious but if you want to consolidate to Fidelity you can convert your VTSAX to VTI at Vanguard (non-taxable conversion) and then transfer it over to Fidelity. At Fidelity you can buy fractional shares of VTI so can continue buying it like a MF there.
I haven't done this myself yet but planning to.
It seems like you have been "planning" to do this for some time now. Curious, what are you waiting for?
Well over the last 5 months my Mom's cancer came back, she went back to chemo, then to the hospital for complications, then became too weak for further treatment, so then she went into Hospice Care, then passed away. Now I have prioritized settling her matters and helping my Dad get set up paying bills, changing beneficiaries, etc. I only have so much headspace to be making calls and tracking changes so deprioritized my own stuff for awhile to get my Dad's straightened out. I am now dealing with Vanguard for his accounts (not large balances but...) - a bit of a pain because their support isn't 24/7, you can only seemingly change beneficiaries of nonretirement accounts online. We called and asked about his nonretirment account (as others report - long hold times, reps answer and don't seem confident in how they respond). It seems that for nonretirement accounts there is paperwork you need to do by mail - they sent him a package of materials I need to go thru this weekend.
I can only track and do so much at once and priorities change.
very sorry to hear about your Mom.
I would imagine the lack of service at VG only makes things harder for you.
Hope things get easier for you.
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by SmileyFace »

bondsr4me wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:25 pm
SmileyFace wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:17 pm
marcopolo wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:51 pm
SmileyFace wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:59 pm
Vanguard User wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:41 pm Do I need to leave Vanguard? I have a taxable account with VTSAX in it. Everything else is at Fidelity.
Not sure if you are serious but if you want to consolidate to Fidelity you can convert your VTSAX to VTI at Vanguard (non-taxable conversion) and then transfer it over to Fidelity. At Fidelity you can buy fractional shares of VTI so can continue buying it like a MF there.
I haven't done this myself yet but planning to.
It seems like you have been "planning" to do this for some time now. Curious, what are you waiting for?
Well over the last 5 months my Mom's cancer came back, she went back to chemo, then to the hospital for complications, then became too weak for further treatment, so then she went into Hospice Care, then passed away. Now I have prioritized settling her matters and helping my Dad get set up paying bills, changing beneficiaries, etc. I only have so much headspace to be making calls and tracking changes so deprioritized my own stuff for awhile to get my Dad's straightened out. I am now dealing with Vanguard for his accounts (not large balances but...) - a bit of a pain because their support isn't 24/7, you can only seemingly change beneficiaries of nonretirement accounts online. We called and asked about his nonretirment account (as others report - long hold times, reps answer and don't seem confident in how they respond). It seems that for nonretirement accounts there is paperwork you need to do by mail - they sent him a package of materials I need to go thru this weekend.
I can only track and do so much at once and priorities change.
very sorry to hear about your Mom.
I would imagine the lack of service at VG only makes things harder for you.
Hope things get easier for you.
Thanks.
Honestly if I could have made the VTSAX to VTI conversion with the push of a button on the website I probably would have done so by now - but that, too, requires a phone call.
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by bondsr4me »

SmileyFace wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:28 pm
bondsr4me wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:25 pm
SmileyFace wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:17 pm
marcopolo wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:51 pm
SmileyFace wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:59 pm

Not sure if you are serious but if you want to consolidate to Fidelity you can convert your VTSAX to VTI at Vanguard (non-taxable conversion) and then transfer it over to Fidelity. At Fidelity you can buy fractional shares of VTI so can continue buying it like a MF there.
I haven't done this myself yet but planning to.
It seems like you have been "planning" to do this for some time now. Curious, what are you waiting for?
Well over the last 5 months my Mom's cancer came back, she went back to chemo, then to the hospital for complications, then became too weak for further treatment, so then she went into Hospice Care, then passed away. Now I have prioritized settling her matters and helping my Dad get set up paying bills, changing beneficiaries, etc. I only have so much headspace to be making calls and tracking changes so deprioritized my own stuff for awhile to get my Dad's straightened out. I am now dealing with Vanguard for his accounts (not large balances but...) - a bit of a pain because their support isn't 24/7, you can only seemingly change beneficiaries of nonretirement accounts online. We called and asked about his nonretirment account (as others report - long hold times, reps answer and don't seem confident in how they respond). It seems that for nonretirement accounts there is paperwork you need to do by mail - they sent him a package of materials I need to go thru this weekend.
I can only track and do so much at once and priorities change.
very sorry to hear about your Mom.
I would imagine the lack of service at VG only makes things harder for you.
Hope things get easier for you.
Thanks.
Honestly if I could have made the VTSAX to VTI conversion with the push of a button on the website I probably would have done so by now - but that, too, requires a phone call.
:happy
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by ruralavalon »

SmileyFace wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:59 pm
Vanguard User wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:41 pm Do I need to leave Vanguard? I have a taxable account with VTSAX in it. Everything else is at Fidelity.
Not sure if you are serious but if you want to consolidate to Fidelity you can convert your VTSAX to VTI at Vanguard (non-taxable conversion) and then transfer it over to Fidelity. At Fidelity you can buy fractional shares of VTI so can continue buying it like a MF there.
I haven't done this myself yet but planning to.
However namajones does not want ETFs, doesn't "like ETFs at all".
namajones wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:56 am
sureshoe wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:52 am
#1 > Why do you prefer mutual funds to ETFs? In general, ETFs cost less. This is a bit of a Pepsi/Coke debate, but I haven't bought a mutual fund outside a 401k in years.
I don't want to be tempted to look at the ups and down every day. And I am tempted. I know myself well enough now to know that that's just me.

I also like to be able to invest total amounts rather than having cash turds left over after purchasing whole shares.

I also don't like "negotiating" buy-in price intraday. I'll take the end-of-day NAV, thank you very much.

In short, I don't like ETFs at all. The fee difference, if any, is next to meaningless for me.
"Everything should be as simple as it is, but not simpler." - Albert Einstein | Wiki article link: Bogleheads® investment philosophy
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Pete12
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Pete12 »

We use Vanguard for our taxable account containing Vanguard mutual funds. Apart from some cost basis issues a few years ago (which they fixed) we have had no trouble and I would stay with them. I prefer mutual funds over ETFs so like to buy them commission fee at Vanguard. Apart from getting the previous issue fixed I have had no interaction with Vanguard and don't expect to.

We use Fidelity for our retirement accounts including non-prototype Solo 401k, backdoor Roth IRAs and mega-backdoor Roth IRAs. This does involve some interactions with Fidelity each year which they always handle accurately and with minimal fuss. They do a good job holding these accounts.

Best of luck,
Pete
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