Is Vanguard so bad?

Have a question about your personal investments? No matter how simple or complex, you can ask it here.
Post Reply
Booogle
Posts: 605
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2016 2:57 pm

Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Booogle »

abuss368 wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:36 pm We moved to Vanguard a long time ago. In hindsight it was simply the best financial decision we ever made.

Thank you Jack Bogle.

Best.
Tony
You can buy every fund at TD Ameritrade.

And ETFs are free.
illumination wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:37 pm I think there are much better options, like Schwab and Fidelity. They just seem to do everything right, their user interface and overall technology seems several years ahead.
If Fidelity's website is better than Vanguard, then Vanguard's website must be a total disaster.
Dave55
Posts: 2018
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:51 pm

Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Dave55 »

abuss368 wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:36 pm We moved to Vanguard a long time ago. In hindsight it was simply the best financial decision we ever made.

Thank you Jack Bogle.

Best.
Tony
I thought you moved to "Where the water is warm, the drinks are cold, and I don't know the names of the players!"

Dave
"Reality always wins, your only job is to get in touch with it." Wilfred Bion
Dagwood
Posts: 1090
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:26 pm
Location: MD

Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Dagwood »

We have been with vanguard for our IRAs and taxable account for 23 years. Never an issue. My wife once has some issues resetting a password with phone support. That is about as minor as you can get. Service otherwise fine and costs are very low.

When my wife opened her own practice a few years ago, we opened a SE 401k for her. We went to Fidelity because at the time they offered 401k loans from the SE 401k. I have never taken a loan, but additional, very low cost emergency liquidity pools are never a bad thing. Fidelity has been fine, but the platform is more set up for people who want to trade. We buy, we don’t trade. A few months after opening the account with fidelity they removed the loan option. Had I known that I would have stayed with Vanguard but now it is too much trouble for little tangible return. And diversifying custodians is not a bad thing in the event of a black swan event.

That is a long way of saying we are long term Vanguard people and happy with that choice. People usually only show up to complain. Plus, as an aside, this forum has changed since 2010-2011 or so when I joined. Probably the run in the market, but there is more talk of trading strategies and more emphasis on consumption. When I joined, to take an example, any discussion of a house or a car that involved anything other than a fairly normal home or a Toyota would typically bring out the boo birds. Today, much much less of that. Point is that the higher consumption lifestyle people probably also find a more trading oriented platform to their liking. Firms like E*trade and Ameritrade, as well as Schwab, all firms that “grew up” as brokers, are more likely to appeal to these folks. I suspect that is what is behind a lot of the vanguard bashing that has become more common here- it doesn’t match the view they have of themselves as financially sophisticated people.
fortunefavored
Posts: 1425
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2015 8:18 pm

Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by fortunefavored »

Dagwood wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:05 am ..snip.. Firms like E*trade and Ameritrade, as well as Schwab, all firms that “grew up” as brokers, are more likely to appeal to these folks. I suspect that is what is behind a lot of the vanguard bashing that has become more common here- it doesn’t match the view they have of themselves as financially sophisticated people.
I think you actually hit on the issue in a backwards way: Vanguard is turning into a brokerage. Pushing brokerage accounts and ETFs. Pushing higher margin products. And they are worse at all of these things than anyone else.

So as someone who was happy with the "old" vanguard, it gradually is turning into everybody-else, except worse. If they had continued to offer the mutual fund platform by default, I'd probably never have even thought about moving. The brokerage platform is clunky and annoying, and now I have half my accounts on mutual fund and half on brokerage (and my screen scrolls forever, because their UI is insanely bad.)

In a lot of ways Vanguard reminds me of many big companies who hire bad leadership. They make decisions, and it takes a while to trickle out.. and then it is too late even if they recognize how bad it is going (which I am dubious Vanguard has realized.)

Intel is a great example right now - they hired a terrible CEO who was way over his head, made many bad decisions and now they have years and years of work ahead to salvage the company.. if they can at all.
User avatar
abuss368
Posts: 27850
Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:33 pm
Location: Where the water is warm, the drinks are cold, and I don't know the names of the players!
Contact:

Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by abuss368 »

Dave55 wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 6:45 am
abuss368 wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:36 pm We moved to Vanguard a long time ago. In hindsight it was simply the best financial decision we ever made.

Thank you Jack Bogle.

Best.
Tony
I thought you moved to "Where the water is warm, the drinks are cold, and I don't know the names of the players!"

Dave
I am lost in space orbiting in my 🚀
😂
Tony
John C. Bogle: “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."
User avatar
anon_investor
Posts: 15122
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:43 pm

Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by anon_investor »

Booogle wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 6:12 am
abuss368 wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:36 pm We moved to Vanguard a long time ago. In hindsight it was simply the best financial decision we ever made.

Thank you Jack Bogle.

Best.
Tony
You can buy every fund at TD Ameritrade.

And ETFs are free.
illumination wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:37 pm I think there are much better options, like Schwab and Fidelity. They just seem to do everything right, their user interface and overall technology seems several years ahead.
If Fidelity's website is better than Vanguard, then Vanguard's website must be a total disaster.
I like Vanguard's website better than Fidelity's, but Vanguard's recent update to their mobile app makes it useless, so Fidelity's mobile app better. I also like Merrill Edge's mobile app better than Vanguard's.
User avatar
Cheez-It Guy
Posts: 4007
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 3:20 pm

Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Cheez-It Guy »

BitTooAggressive wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:42 pm
Beensabu wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:35 pm
BitTooAggressive wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:09 pm
Beensabu wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:57 pm
BitTooAggressive wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:33 pm Wife on hold 2 hours yesterday. For some reason vanguard deactivated her bank account with making transactions with vanguard.
I don't suppose that there's any possibility either you or your wife might have accidentally removed the account from your profile?

Have you already tried adding it there again (since you'll probably have to anyway)?
No the account was still there in the drop down in red. There was a message saying to print out some form have the form notarized and send to them to activate account. She used the same account about 2 months ago.

So if Vanguard thought there was a problem with the account they should have notified her. Vanguard did not. That is the main reason I am upset. I get all kinds of stupid stuff for webinars, personal advisers but nothing for a problem with a bank account. Nonsense.
That's totally weird. I can understand being frustrated. A lot of times, the error message is the notification, even if we would prefer otherwise.

It's strange that you would have to send them a notarized form to reactivate it when it's such a simple process to add it in the first place. I wonder if maybe something changed on your bank's end or they did a ping that was flagged? I guess you'll find out.

Just a suggestion, but maybe let the whole "we weren't notified" thing go so you can find out what happened and get it fixed faster. It's less satisfying, but easier.
She will call vanguard again Monday. Friday she was on hold an hour, got someone. The rep said wrong department and put her back in the queue. So after almost another hour she hung up. Just really bad by vanguard.

But the original problem could have been caused by our bank. Will share with you all what happened to cause mess. So frustrating. Really did not put us in some serious bind but vanguard needs to do better b
Not sure when the restriction actually went into place, but Vanguard often makes notifications about any changes to linked bank accounts via postal mail (slower) as a fraud prevention measure (in case your online access and / or E-Mail has been compromised). The possibility exists that you may still receive a postal mailing.
HeavyMonkeyBiz
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:34 am

Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by HeavyMonkeyBiz »

I've been with Vanguard for about 20 years and have no substantive complaints. I also have a Fidelity account and have had similar experience. Keep in mind that complaints tend to get more attention as opposed to those of us who conduct our biz without incident and dont regularly report our experiences good or bad.
I generally tend toward the devil I know, leaving well enough alone and accept that "the other line is always shorter" till you go stand in it. If you take my meaning.
Cheers
Dagwood
Posts: 1090
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:26 pm
Location: MD

Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Dagwood »

fortunefavored wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:36 am
Dagwood wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:05 am ..snip.. Firms like E*trade and Ameritrade, as well as Schwab, all firms that “grew up” as brokers, are more likely to appeal to these folks. I suspect that is what is behind a lot of the vanguard bashing that has become more common here- it doesn’t match the view they have of themselves as financially sophisticated people.
I think you actually hit on the issue in a backwards way: Vanguard is turning into a brokerage. Pushing brokerage accounts and ETFs. Pushing higher margin products. And they are worse at all of these things than anyone else.

So as someone who was happy with the "old" vanguard, it gradually is turning into everybody-else, except worse. If they had continued to offer the mutual fund platform by default, I'd probably never have even thought about moving. The brokerage platform is clunky and annoying, and now I have half my accounts on mutual fund and half on brokerage (and my screen scrolls forever, because their UI is insanely bad.)

In a lot of ways Vanguard reminds me of many big companies who hire bad leadership. They make decisions, and it takes a while to trickle out.. and then it is too late even if they recognize how bad it is going (which I am dubious Vanguard has realized.)

Intel is a great example right now - they hired a terrible CEO who was way over his head, made many bad decisions and now they have years and years of work ahead to salvage the company.. if they can at all.
You make a fair point in the sense that VG definitely is acting like it needs to change to keep up. But the core competency of the firm remains. We get the emails and letters about advisory services but we ignore them.

As far as moving people to the Vanguard broker dealer, this move gives you SIPC coverage on those assets.
User avatar
Cheez-It Guy
Posts: 4007
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 3:20 pm

Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Cheez-It Guy »

All marketing E-Mails can be turned off. I never receive anything about PAS. Only transactional communications.
User avatar
Tubes
Posts: 1882
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2020 6:33 am

Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Tubes »

fortunefavored wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:36 am The brokerage platform is clunky and annoying, and now I have half my accounts on mutual fund and half on brokerage (and my screen scrolls forever, because their UI is insanely bad.)
Tip: use the pulldown bar like this "My Accounts --> Balances and Holdings". This will get you the old, much more compact view of everything. Should be a lot less scrolling. The new UI assumes you are using a phone or small screen so it has both bigger font and less info. The old view is compact with more information.
User avatar
Tubes
Posts: 1882
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2020 6:33 am

Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Tubes »

So I was getting caught up in the dislike of Vanguard fever and was considering major transfers out to Fido or Schwab. I stood down for a while and I'm now not in any big rush to switch. I am rolling out my IRAs to Fido, but that is for different reasons and is due to "external events" that effect IRAs that contain a basis for Roth conversions. My IRAs are a minority of my holdings at VG so the transfer out is minor.

Part of the reason I'm going to leave it alone is because of a positive experience on a rollover out of Vanguard. I called up, they answered withing a few seconds, and the customer rep sent me the proper on-line form right away. I filled it out immediately, and my rollover check to Fidelity came in 3 days. That was good service.
User avatar
ruralavalon
Posts: 26353
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:29 am
Location: Illinois

Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by ruralavalon »

Tubes wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 11:47 am
fortunefavored wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:36 am The brokerage platform is clunky and annoying, and now I have half my accounts on mutual fund and half on brokerage (and my screen scrolls forever, because their UI is insanely bad.)
Tip: use the pulldown bar like this "My Accounts --> Balances and Holdings". This will get you the old, much more compact view of everything. Should be a lot less scrolling. The new UI assumes you are using a phone or small screen so it has both bigger font and less info. The old view is compact with more information.
I agree.

I like the Vanguard website and app, I think that Vanguard has all I need or want for buy-and-hold investing.

I don't understand importance of most complaints about user interface or the like.

Tubes wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 11:53 am So I was getting caught up in the dislike of Vanguard fever and was considering major transfers out to Fido or Schwab. I stood down for a while and I'm now not in any big rush to switch. I am rolling out my IRAs to Fido, but that is for different reasons and is due to "external events" that effect IRAs that contain a basis for Roth conversions. My IRAs are a minority of my holdings at VG so the transfer out is minor.

Part of the reason I'm going to leave it alone is because of a positive experience on a rollover out of Vanguard. I called up, they answered withing a few seconds, and the customer rep sent me the proper on-line form right away. I filled it out immediately, and my rollover check to Fidelity came in 3 days. That was good service.
I agree.

Doing nothing is my default decision. I am always asking myself questions like " why bother?", and " what's the point?"
"Everything should be as simple as it is, but not simpler." - Albert Einstein | Wiki article link: Bogleheads® investment philosophy
User avatar
Vulcan
Posts: 2996
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 11:43 pm

Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Vulcan »

Tubes wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 11:47 am Tip: use the pulldown bar like this "My Accounts --> Balances and Holdings". This will get you the old, much more compact view of everything.
+1

Taught this trick to the new young adult Vanguard customer in our family as well.

Wonder how long this old interface remains accessible that way, but will use it for as long as it does.
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
etfan
Posts: 526
Joined: Sun May 16, 2021 4:22 pm

Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by etfan »

One good thing about Vanguard's bad service reputation is it discourages me from pursuing any complex investments that may require their help. So I just keep it simple. :mrgreen:
bondsr4me
Posts: 2427
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 7:08 am

Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by bondsr4me »

Vulcan wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:21 pm
Tubes wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 11:47 am Tip: use the pulldown bar like this "My Accounts --> Balances and Holdings". This will get you the old, much more compact view of everything.
+1

Taught this trick to the new young adult Vanguard customer in our family as well.

Wonder how long this old interface remains accessible that way, but will use it for as long as it does.
yeah, I finally figured this out too…..I like the presentation of it.
WhiteMaxima
Posts: 3339
Joined: Thu May 19, 2016 5:04 pm

Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by WhiteMaxima »

Vanguard low fee is the selling point. If you want better services, use Schwab and Fidelity. You get what you paid for.
User avatar
Toons
Posts: 14467
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 9:20 am
Location: Hills of Tennessee

Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Toons »

Not bad at all
Matter of Fact
Excellent in my opinion
I don't complain
I figure things out
:happy
"One does not accumulate but eliminate. It is not daily increase but daily decrease. The height of cultivation always runs to simplicity" –Bruce Lee
nalor511
Posts: 5061
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 1:00 am

Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by nalor511 »

WhiteMaxima wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:06 pm Vanguard low fee is the selling point. If you want better services, use Schwab and Fidelity. You get what you paid for.
You actually get better serivce for the *same* price of $0 with Fidelity and Schwab. Speaking as a 18 year Vanguard customer, 10 year Fidelity customer, and 1 year Schwab customer.
User avatar
tetractys
Posts: 6249
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2007 3:30 pm
Location: Along the Salish Sea

Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by tetractys »

IMO Vanguard is fine. I’ve received a lot of help and understanding there. Whenever I ran into trouble it was self inflicted. There will always be complaints and grumbling—someone has to do it.

The main thing I think is that Vanguard will never backbite with fees. In the past I’ve been snapped at by other firms, even large supposedly reputable ones, and have had to wait through class actions, and even had to call in the SEC once to spank a naughty CEO.

And I remember at least one time Vanguard took care of some difficulty with another firm in the background.

I think it’s accurate to say Vanguard doesn’t wait hand and foot on clients (although I have no experience with the fee based management). Generally speaking, anywhere there’s extra codling, there’ll also be extra baggage to contend with.
WhiteMaxima
Posts: 3339
Joined: Thu May 19, 2016 5:04 pm

Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by WhiteMaxima »

nalor511 wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:30 pm
WhiteMaxima wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:06 pm Vanguard low fee is the selling point. If you want better services, use Schwab and Fidelity. You get what you paid for.
You actually get better serivce for the *same* price of $0 with Fidelity and Schwab. Speaking as a 18 year Vanguard customer, 10 year Fidelity customer, and 1 year Schwab customer.
I have been with all of them. don't feel one is better is better or worse than the other. But I like low fee and Bogle investment philosophy, so a big % of my investment is with Vanguard. I like Fidelity because my FIA card is directly linked to Fidelity 529 account and I earn 2% on every purchase. I like Schwab because Schwab waive the ATM foreign transition fee. I willl keep all of them.
nalor511
Posts: 5061
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 1:00 am

Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by nalor511 »

WhiteMaxima wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:42 pm
nalor511 wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:30 pm
WhiteMaxima wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:06 pm Vanguard low fee is the selling point. If you want better services, use Schwab and Fidelity. You get what you paid for.
You actually get better serivce for the *same* price of $0 with Fidelity and Schwab. Speaking as a 18 year Vanguard customer, 10 year Fidelity customer, and 1 year Schwab customer.
I have been with all of them. don't feel one is better is better or worse than the other. But I like low fee and Bogle investment philosophy, so a big % of my investment is with Vanguard. I like Fidelity because my FIA card is directly linked to Fidelity 529 account and I earn 2% on every purchase. I like Schwab because Schwab waive the ATM foreign transition fee. I willl keep all of them.
The service is better with S and F because you can contact them easily/quickly at all days and all hours, at least that's important to me. Call or live-chat vanguard right now, see if they answer.
Northern Flicker
Posts: 15367
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:29 am

Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Northern Flicker »

Do you get the A-team on Sundays?
PDX_Traveler
Posts: 159
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2016 1:18 am

Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by PDX_Traveler »

anon_investor wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:12 am
(...)

I like Vanguard's website better than Fidelity's, but Vanguard's recent update to their mobile app makes it useless, so Fidelity's mobile app better. I also like Merrill Edge's mobile app better than Vanguard's.
+1
Had to chime in here just because I wanted to vent. Don't quite see the point of why they updated the mobile app, at all :-( In the beta phase when they had both versions - the old one and the current useless one - available, I thought this experiment would fizzle out and disappear. Sadly, no ...
skeptical1
Posts: 97
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:16 pm
Location: Sacramento

Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by skeptical1 »

I don't think Vanguard is bad, but it's "star" is dimming a bit. I recently moved nearly all my mutual fund portfolio from Vanguard to Schwab. I did this for several reasons (in descending order of importance): establish a relationship with a local Rep, consolidate my accounts, get a bonus for moving my accounts, and cast an individual vote for what I perceive as declining levels of service for retail customers.

I will forever be indebted to Bogle and Vanguard for the pioneering work in index funds, low fees, and looking out for the "little guy." Vanguard has never done me wrong in my approximate 25 year relationship with it. That said, I think Vanguard is no longer special or unique. Maybe it hasn't changed much, but the competition has. For me, it no longer stands out from the crowd. It has forced the hand of the competition and they have raised their respective games. As a result, I think of Vanguard as a good company, not a great one. I suspect the big three are very similar and I wouldn't have a problem putting my investments with any of them. For the time being, Schwab is best for me.
nalor511
Posts: 5061
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 1:00 am

Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by nalor511 »

Northern Flicker wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 3:16 pm Do you get the A-team on Sundays?
Yes
sandramjet
Posts: 442
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2014 11:28 pm

Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by sandramjet »

For 20 years I thought vanguard was great. Then I had to open an inherited ira to hold the death benefits from my mother's annuities. I spoke with 6 different representatives over 3 weeks and got 6 different instructions of which only one worked. Repeated requests by email and messages went unanswered. Spent literally hours on hold. 3 times I was transferred to voice mail with a promise they would call back. Never did.
Bottom line...if you can do it online with no help vanguard is fine. But next year when my company moves our 410k to fidelity, my other accounts will likely follow
Northern Flicker
Posts: 15367
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:29 am

Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Northern Flicker »

nalor511 wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 4:33 pm
Northern Flicker wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 3:16 pm Do you get the A-team on Sundays?
Yes
I've had trouble getting the A-team on weekdays at one of them when they are busy. I'll have to try on the weekends.
aquinas
Posts: 46
Joined: Wed May 19, 2021 8:12 pm

Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by aquinas »

Not so bad.

I worked 40 years for 5 different employers and had (or still have) workplace savings accounts with TIAA, Fidelity, Aetna/ING/Voya, Valic, and Transamerica, and I had/have IRAs at Vanguard, Fidelity, and TIAA. So I've been around the block, so to speak. In my opinion, there can and will be annoyances and glitches with any investment firm you work with. After all, they are bureaucracies run by fallible human beings.

Fidelity's customer service is excellent, and the company has several top-notch, low-cost index funds buried in its annoyingly long and complicated list of options. The website is the best.

TIAA has a few unique products that nobody else can match; its customer service is often clunky but getting better.

Vanguard has, by far, the best line-up of funds and the lowest overall fees; its customer service has been sub-par of late, maybe because it is has grown too fast and is moving in (questionable) new directions. If the company can stick to its core Boglesque values and products and get past the rough patch it seem to be in now with customer service, it will remain my go-to choice. I'm more than willing to endure some annoyance in exchange for the great philosophy and great products.
User avatar
Tubes
Posts: 1882
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2020 6:33 am

Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Tubes »

I also like Fidelity, but they are not saints either. I mentioned that I rolled over my VG IRA to a Fido 401k. Fidelity suggests I use their phone app to snap a picture of the rollover check. When it works, it is actually very efficient and slick.

It didn't work.

The Fido Netbenefits app on my brand new Android phone crashed every time I took the picture. Looking at the comments on Google Play, I saw I was one of hundreds with this problem. It didn't seem to matter what brand phone either. One guy mentioned his old Android phone worked. So I powered up my old Android 9 phone, and sure enough it worked and I got my check rolled over.

But apparently, they never did proper QA testing on Android 10. At least, that's my theory as to what is happening.

It is always wise to remember some old saying about "The grass being greener somewhere else."
BitTooAggressive
Posts: 1085
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:15 pm

Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by BitTooAggressive »

Here is what happened with my wife’s account. At around the beginning of the year or late last year she changed from her maiden name to my last name. She updated all her accounts but she never changed her name on her bank account at Vanguard. She had been using that account just fine at Vanguard until last week with no problem. So to resolve she just changed her name on her bank account on vanguard website.

So we did not have to fill out a notarized form as the error message indicated. The representative did not know why the platform just now raised an issue. I suppose there is a good chance they had a software update or periodically try and do some kind of account validation just not sure.
User avatar
Noobvestor
Posts: 5944
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 1:09 am

Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Noobvestor »

Booogle wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 6:12 am
illumination wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:37 pm I think there are much better options, like Schwab and Fidelity. They just seem to do everything right, their user interface and overall technology seems several years ahead.
If Fidelity's website is better than Vanguard, then Vanguard's website must be a total disaster.
Yeah, I don't get this pro-Fido sentiment at all. I've had both. Fidelity's was a stupid nightmare. Even looks like it was designed in the 90s. Vanguard's is completely functional, I can navigate to anywhere I need to be within two clicks. Everything is intuitive and the design even looks good.

Now if you're talking about the app, I couldn't say either way - but as a website: Fido is just a hot mess compared to Vanguard.
"In the absence of clarity, diversification is the only logical strategy" -= Larry Swedroe
User avatar
CRC_Volunteer
Posts: 568
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2021 10:57 am
Location: Southeast USA

Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by CRC_Volunteer »

Tubes wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:31 am”The grass being greener somewhere else."
Or as Erma Bombeck’s book was titled, “The grass is always greener over the septic tank.”
"Let me explain. No, there is too much. Let me sum up." (Inigo Montoya) | | 65/30/05 | 53% VTSAX | 12% VTIAX | 30% VAIPX | 5% CASH
bltn
Posts: 1844
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 8:32 pm

Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by bltn »

HeavyMonkeyBiz wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:42 am I've been with Vanguard for about 20 years and have no substantive complaints. I also have a Fidelity account and have had similar experience. Keep in mind that complaints tend to get more attention as opposed to those of us who conduct our biz without incident and dont regularly report our experiences good or bad.
I generally tend toward the devil I know, leaving well enough alone and accept that "the other line is always shorter" till you go stand in it. If you take my meaning.
Cheers
I definitely take your meaning and think there is a lot to it.

I also have no problems with Vanguard or Fidelity over the last 30 years. Maybe indexing makes ones financial life simpler.
andersml
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:05 pm

Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by andersml »

I just moved >$2MM to Fidelity (after more than 20 years with VG) because VG tools are terrible and the customer service was just for admin things. I am not an active trader but the entire Vanguard support is really quite minimal
User avatar
Cheez-It Guy
Posts: 4007
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 3:20 pm

Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Cheez-It Guy »

andersml wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 7:57 am I just moved >$2MM to Fidelity (after more than 20 years with VG) because VG tools are terrible and the customer service was just for admin things. I am not an active trader but the entire Vanguard support is really quite minimal
Just out of curiosity, what additional tools and support were you seeking?
backpacker61
Posts: 1613
Joined: Wed May 20, 2020 6:36 am

Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by backpacker61 »

I've had a Vanguard account for 32 years; I don't think they're bad at all.

I had to interact with them a lot last year following a death in my family, and they were helpful.
“Now shall I walk or shall I ride? | 'Ride,' Pleasure said; | 'Walk,' Joy replied.” | | ― W.H. Davies
cfa-ish
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:43 pm

Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by cfa-ish »

Terrible website compared to Fidelity/Schwab.
They are transitioning the retirement plan website from clunky-but-works old one to a jazzy-and-doesn't-work new one. To actually do a transaction like exchanging funds, you have to go to the old one via a trapdoor left in the new one.
Customer service is a joke.

Depends on you, maybe the numerous fund choices, low ERs etc outweigh these minor annoyances.
stocknoob4111
Posts: 3509
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:52 am

Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by stocknoob4111 »

40+ minute hold and nobody on the line, ridiculous... none of my other financial institutions are this bad, not Chase, not Capital One, not Citi and I have close to $1M with VG, nothing with the others who answer the phone.
catchinup
Posts: 660
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:35 pm

Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by catchinup »

fortunefavored wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 10:13 am
>Getting rid of the mutual fund platform

>Degrading their private-401k offerings
Hi can you please explain more about the two items above? Thanks
User avatar
paul e
Posts: 228
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 4:44 pm

Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by paul e »

fortunefavored wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:36 am
Dagwood wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:05 am ..snip.. Firms like E*trade and Ameritrade, as well as Schwab, all firms that “grew up” as brokers, are more likely to appeal to these folks. I suspect that is what is behind a lot of the vanguard bashing that has become more common here- it doesn’t match the view they have of themselves as financially sophisticated people.
I think you actually hit on the issue in a backwards way: Vanguard is turning into a brokerage. Pushing brokerage accounts and ETFs. Pushing higher margin products. And they are worse at all of these things than anyone else.

So as someone who was happy with the "old" vanguard, it gradually is turning into everybody-else, except worse. If they had continued to offer the mutual fund platform by default, I'd probably never have even thought about moving. The brokerage platform is clunky and annoying, and now I have half my accounts on mutual fund and half on brokerage (and my screen scrolls forever, because their UI is insanely bad.)

In a lot of ways Vanguard reminds me of many big companies who hire bad leadership. They make decisions, and it takes a while to trickle out.. and then it is too late even if they recognize how bad it is going (which I am dubious Vanguard has realized.)

Intel is a great example right now - they hired a terrible CEO who was way over his head, made many bad decisions and now they have years and years of work ahead to salvage the company.. if they can at all.

Ive been with Vanguard for well over a decade. Recently Ive noticed huge changes to the negative. Example: They recently sent me a form email advising that one of my funds has become eligible for an institutional share class conversion. It was a very friendly letter at the bottom of which was a phone number to call to accomplish this simple converison. Ok Great.. Keep in mind that this letter came from the Flagship division such as it is.. After a 20 minute hold, I got a 'crew member' who had no idea what an institutional share was.. Now wouldnt you think that an email sent to high value investors would provide a phone number that was manned by people who knew WTF this was about? So I got dumped into another pool awaiting somebody who knew. .After another 10 minutes I hung up and retried this morning.. Same deal. I got dumped into a pool not supported by knowledgeable staff. Eventually they switched me to somebody who had more of a clue, but this didnt go smoothly either. First I was advised that the conversion will appear as a sale because thats the only way Vanguard's system and do this conversion.. I was advised it will only appear as sale on the Vanguard system and will remain nontaxable. Ok great. So I give the go ahead, he submits, but he has a problem. The system wont accept the submission.. After another hold delay, he advises it doesnt like the fact that I have cost basis method as spec id, and he has to change it to FIFO, which I can change back after the conversion. Ok great. So he tries to submit it again.. No Go again. So he tells me he'll have to do it manually and will take up to 3 days to complete, so this is where I am now.

Is this the way they want to treat their long term, high value investors? Am I being too picky, or rightfully indignant?
stocknoob4111
Posts: 3509
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:52 am

Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by stocknoob4111 »

Called both VG and Fidelity this morning for different issues:

Vanguard hold time: 1 Hour 15 minutes
Fidelity hold time: 1 minute
FoolStreet
Posts: 1554
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:18 am

Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by FoolStreet »

Booogle wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 6:12 am
abuss368 wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:36 pm We moved to Vanguard a long time ago. In hindsight it was simply the best financial decision we ever made.

Thank you Jack Bogle.

Best.
Tony
You can buy every fund at TD Ameritrade.

And ETFs are free.
illumination wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:37 pm I think there are much better options, like Schwab and Fidelity. They just seem to do everything right, their user interface and overall technology seems several years ahead.
If Fidelity's website is better than Vanguard, then Vanguard's website must be a total disaster.
Admiral funds for munis might not be available outside vanguard.
Dagwood
Posts: 1090
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:26 pm
Location: MD

Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Dagwood »

paul e wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:27 am
fortunefavored wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:36 am
Dagwood wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:05 am ..snip.. Firms like E*trade and Ameritrade, as well as Schwab, all firms that “grew up” as brokers, are more likely to appeal to these folks. I suspect that is what is behind a lot of the vanguard bashing that has become more common here- it doesn’t match the view they have of themselves as financially sophisticated people.
I think you actually hit on the issue in a backwards way: Vanguard is turning into a brokerage. Pushing brokerage accounts and ETFs. Pushing higher margin products. And they are worse at all of these things than anyone else.

So as someone who was happy with the "old" vanguard, it gradually is turning into everybody-else, except worse. If they had continued to offer the mutual fund platform by default, I'd probably never have even thought about moving. The brokerage platform is clunky and annoying, and now I have half my accounts on mutual fund and half on brokerage (and my screen scrolls forever, because their UI is insanely bad.)

In a lot of ways Vanguard reminds me of many big companies who hire bad leadership. They make decisions, and it takes a while to trickle out.. and then it is too late even if they recognize how bad it is going (which I am dubious Vanguard has realized.)

Intel is a great example right now - they hired a terrible CEO who was way over his head, made many bad decisions and now they have years and years of work ahead to salvage the company.. if they can at all.

Ive been with Vanguard for well over a decade. Recently Ive noticed huge changes to the negative. Example: They recently sent me a form email advising that one of my funds has become eligible for an institutional share class conversion. It was a very friendly letter at the bottom of which was a phone number to call to accomplish this simple converison. Ok Great.. Keep in mind that this letter came from the Flagship division such as it is.. After a 20 minute hold, I got a 'crew member' who had no idea what an institutional share was.. Now wouldnt you think that an email sent to high value investors would provide a phone number that was manned by people who knew WTF this was about? So I got dumped into another pool awaiting somebody who knew. .After another 10 minutes I hung up and retried this morning.. Same deal. I got dumped into a pool not supported by knowledgeable staff. Eventually they switched me to somebody who had more of a clue, but this didnt go smoothly either. First I was advised that the conversion will appear as a sale because thats the only way Vanguard's system and do this conversion.. I was advised it will only appear as sale on the Vanguard system and will remain nontaxable. Ok great. So I give the go ahead, he submits, but he has a problem. The system wont accept the submission.. After another hold delay, he advises it doesnt like the fact that I have cost basis method as spec id, and he has to change it to FIFO, which I can change back after the conversion. Ok great. So he tries to submit it again.. No Go again. So he tells me he'll have to do it manually and will take up to 3 days to complete, so this is where I am now.

Is this the way they want to treat their long term, high value investors? Am I being too picky, or rightfully indignant?
I don't discount your experience or critique. I think that reading through the replies in general, it confirms my suspicions that none of these big firms are perfect. For me, as a dollar cost average, buy and hold investor, the costs of switching, and the potential benefits, simply do not make sense. That's not to say VG is perfect or that others are bad (although we've had good experience with Fidelity too), it's just that at the end of the proverbial day, my goals are to track the returns in the market in a cost effective, tax efficient way, and to have my assets with a reputable, safe custodian. People with more advanced goals may want more. And then there are the screw-ups that are inflicted upon everyone, so I am unsure changing to a different firm would effectively address them. Take care.
User avatar
Leif
Posts: 3705
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:15 pm

Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Leif »

paul e wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:27 am Is this the way they want to treat their long term, high value investors? Am I being too picky, or rightfully indignant?
Unfortunately I'm experiencing the same type of service. I don't believe flagship status means anything now, if it ever did.

A couple of months ago I reported a bug with their beneficiary designation. They looked into and told me a fix is coming soon. They had submitted a "datafix" form to IT. They said IT needs to fix something on the backend. The latest response is that they have no timeline for the fix.

It seems like 1/2 in this thread have had bad experience, but the other half must be very patient, or never call, or don't mind losing checking or other services. It seems to me that Vanguard is struggling. I hope they can turn things around.
Last edited by Leif on Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
btq96r
Posts: 556
Joined: Thu Dec 26, 2019 2:46 pm
Location: Nashville, TN

Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by btq96r »

I want Vanguard to be good at how my investments return value, not focused on being a tech or customer service company. Those are secondary, even tertiary needs, so I'm fine with a bit of lackluster on those fronts. For now, they're quite sufficient in what I need. I suppose I'll consider complaining if I'm fortunate enough to hit Flagship status. I would and have recommended them to family and friends.

I wouldn't be upset in the least if they reverted away from that app "upgrade". The new look is hot garbage and I use the app less and less than ever before (which might be an overall positive, still unsure).
Tubes wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 11:47 am Tip: use the pulldown bar like this "My Accounts --> Balances and Holdings". This will get you the old, much more compact view of everything. Should be a lot less scrolling. The new UI assumes you are using a phone or small screen so it has both bigger font and less info. The old view is compact with more information.
This is what I do by muscle memory now. It's annoying to have that extra step, but it would be far worse if the rest of the desktop site looked like the main page.
User avatar
macandal
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2016 1:58 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by macandal »

sureshoe wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:52 am#1 > Why do you prefer mutual funds to ETFs? In general, ETFs cost less. This is a bit of a Pepsi/Coke debate, but I haven't bought a mutual fund outside a 401k in years.
I know you didn't ask me, but I prefer Mutual Funds over ETFs because you can set up automatic monthly (or periodic) purchases with MFs but not ETFs. That's big to me. Also, I grew up knowing mutual funds and it's a comfort thing. That's what I know. Every time someone recommends an ETF, I always go look for its mutual funds equivalent. So I guess I like Pepsi? Or Coke? Coke. Definitely Coke, the mutual fund was here first.
User avatar
macandal
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2016 1:58 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by macandal »

namajones wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:56 amIn short, I don't like ETFs at all. The fee difference, if any, is next to meaningless for me.
That pretty much sums it up for me too. I agree with you. Mutual funds are it for me. It's not like it's a huge difference in fees to make me want to run toward ETFs.
User avatar
macandal
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2016 1:58 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by macandal »

Grt2bOutdoors wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 10:31 amYeah - they don’t care for us Bogleheads either! Just ask Edward Jones! :twisted:
Oh? What did they say? Do tell.
nalor511
Posts: 5061
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 1:00 am

Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by nalor511 »

macandal wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 12:17 pm
namajones wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:56 amIn short, I don't like ETFs at all. The fee difference, if any, is next to meaningless for me.
That pretty much sums it up for me too. I agree with you. Mutual funds are it for me. It's not like it's a huge difference in fees to make me want to run toward ETFs.
Over time I've come around towards ETF. I was very resistant. It's not worse, just different. It's cheaper. I like cheaper. It trades faster, I like faster. You may come around eventually too
Post Reply