Is Vanguard so bad?

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Dead Man Walking
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Dead Man Walking »

I’ve been investing at Vanguard since the early 1980’s and haven’t had any problems. However, I’m a low maintenance investor and have only called them a couple of times regarding QCDs. When I called, the customer service representative referred me to a retirement specialist who handled the QCD and sent me a message in my Vanguard account that showed me how to do a QCD online. I haven’t had to call on the last few years. My wife and I have retirement accounts on the mutual fund platform.

When the Vanguard Group instituted the Vanguard Marketing Corporation, I realized that I wasn’t investing with the Vanguard that Bogle started. I believe that Vanguard’s biggest problem is asset bloat, which has affected their customer service. When they began pushing the brokerage platform, I began researching ETFs. ETFs are the funds of the future, especially for taxable accounts. They can be purchased from any brokerage. Some Bogleheads believe that holding all of their accounts at Vanguard is the simplest way to invest. Others believe that having all their eggs in one basket isn’t prudent. I was in the former camp until the Vanguard Marketing Corporation began expanding into advisory services. I have moved my taxable accounts to ChaseYouInvest, which is now J.P. Morgan Self Directed, because it was simpler to invest directly from my Chase accounts to their brokerage account. Most Vanguard, BlackRock, Fidelity, and Schwab mutual funds can be purchased for free. Of course, ETFs can be purchased as well as stocks, bonds, and treasuries. I’m limited to 100 free trades per year.

Vanguard seems to have gotten “too big for their britches” from my perspective.

DMW
KyleAAA
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by KyleAAA »

bertilak wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:13 pm
KyleAAA wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:06 pm They're alright. But since so many of us primarily own ETFs these days, it's easy to own Vanguard funds at better brokerages without paying any fees.
Instead of quotung and counter-quoting anecdotal evidence about "better brokerages," perhaps we should have a reliable firm do a study. Oh, wait! Already done, by J.D.Power: viewtopic.php?p=6274906#p6274906
J.D. Power doesn't even conduct a study about how good the brokerages are. They conduct studies on customer satisfaction. They aren't the same or even similar things. It quite simply doesn't address this issue. Besides, I don't need a firm to do a study. I've tried them all. Fidelity is undeniably superior for my usage. That isn't a subjective statement, it's an empirically verified fact.
BigJohn
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by BigJohn »

blackburnian wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:55 am I have no problem with the online platform. But here is my experience trying to reach someone at Vg by phone to transfer stock to a charity (not from a DAF, and cannot be done online):
Yesterday: gave up after 3 hours on hold.
This morning: reached a representative after 20 min, who transferred me to department 2, who transferred me to department 3, who said it was the wrong department and asked who had sent me there (no, I didn't know her name). He put me on hold with department 4; at that point, none of the phone keys were registering, so I could not choose the option for a call back. I hung up after 30 min bc I have a meeting to attend.
Not sure what you’re trying to do but last year VG made this executable online. Prior to this, I always just sent the paper forms via snail mail. Much easier than a phone call to customer service even back then. See my post here

https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewt ... 5#p5080995
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fwellimort
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by fwellimort »

It's not that Vanguard is bad, it's that other brokerages are better overall.

What does Vanguard offer that brokerages like Fidelity or Schwab doesn't (or any major brokerage for that matter).
It seems brokerages like Fidelity and Schwab have much better security than Vanguard.
Brokerages like Schwab pays and treats its workers far better than employees at Vanguard.
Brokerages like Fidelity gives many people free Turbo Tax Premier. What does Vanguard provide for filing taxes?
Brokerages like Fidelity are constantly investing in its UI. Meanwhile, Vanguard doesn't seem to invest much here either.
Brokerages like Fidelity offer partial trading on any stocks or ETFs. What does Vanguard offer here?
Brokerages like Schwab and Fidelity have much better customer support overall.

Why Vanguard? The main reason for many is because it's the firm Bogle founded. It's the firm that moved this industry into low cost index funds.

But nowadays, every brokerage (including even brokerages like Robinhood) has access to low cost index funds/ETFs.
In fact, you can even purchase Vanguard ETFs in any brokerage. And even better, Fidelity and M1 Finance lets you purchase Vanguard ETFs in partial shares like mutual funds.
And M1 Finance just made the entire stock and ETF industry into a mutual fund pie chart. Super easy to invest.

Then unlike Vanguard, other brokerages just have superior customer support + more financial services.
Some brokerages like Merrill Edge is well integrated with a bank (Bank of America). Having $100k or more in assets at Merrill Edge grants Bank of America users a 5.25% cashback credit card (with no annual fee).
And other brokerages like Schwab and Fidelity lets you withdraw money from any ATM in the US without fees.
Then there's brokerages like robo advisors and all in places like Schwab, SoFi, WealthFront, etc.
And brokerages like M1 Finance lets you borrow money for a near non-existent fee.
And then there's the sign on bonus on some brokerages like WeBull, Schwab, Merrill Edge, etc..

So why particularly Vanguard? Of course the next argument is 'because of low cost index funds'.
What's so different between ETFs and mutual funds except 1 updates real time during market and the other updates at end of trading day once a day.
Plus, major brokerages like Schwab and Fidelity also have their own low cost index funds. Schwab in fact has the lowest fee Target Date Fund in the industry for retail investors.
Then some cry about taxes. First of all, taxes on all these index funds are so low that it really isn't much of an issue. And if taxes were such a huge issue, then those investors should be invested in ITOT and IXUS instead (iShares apparently have been more tax efficient than Vanguard funds/ETFs).
And if behavior worry is an issue, there's still brokerages like M1 Finance out there.

So the question I want to ask is, 'Why particularly Vanguard'?
What is Vanguard offering that other brokerages currently don't?
Vanguard has potentially a worse security in its brokerage and underpays many of its employees. All the while not offering as many services to its customers.

I really don't understand. If one really loves Vanguard products over other products (for whatever reasons), then one can today purchase Vanguard ETFs anywhere with better services.

Having said all this, I do have a Vanguard account. Along with Fidelity, Merrill Edge, WeBull, and Robinhood. Personally, I enjoy Fidelity the most (and Merrill Edge grants me the 5.25% cashback CC).
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ruralavalon
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by ruralavalon »

fwellimort wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:54 pm . . . . .
I really don't understand. If one really loves Vanguard products over other products (for whatever reasons), then one can today purchase Vanguard ETFs anywhere with better services.
However the OP namajones doesn't want ETFs, and doesn't "like ETFs at all."
namajones wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:56 am
sureshoe wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:52 am
#1 > Why do you prefer mutual funds to ETFs? In general, ETFs cost less. This is a bit of a Pepsi/Coke debate, but I haven't bought a mutual fund outside a 401k in years.
I don't want to be tempted to look at the ups and down every day. And I am tempted. I know myself well enough now to know that that's just me.

I also like to be able to invest total amounts rather than having cash turds left over after purchasing whole shares.

I also don't like "negotiating" buy-in price intraday. I'll take the end-of-day NAV, thank you very much.

In short, I don't like ETFs at all. The fee difference, if any, is next to meaningless for me.
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fwellimort
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by fwellimort »

In that case, nothing wrong with Vanguard (or any other brokerage that has low cost index funds like Fidelity or Schwab (or M1 Finance for mutual fund effect) for that matter).
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ruralavalon
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by ruralavalon »

fwellimort wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:29 pm In that case, nothing wrong with Vanguard (or any other brokerage that has low cost index funds like Fidelity or Schwab (or M1 Finance for mutual fund effect) for that matter).
In my opinion Vanguard, Fidelity and Schwab are all good choices. In my opinion it is largely a matter of personal preference and one's own experience with the fund company
"Everything should be as simple as it is, but not simpler." - Albert Einstein | Wiki article link: Bogleheads® investment philosophy
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grobertj
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by grobertj »

The main complaint I have is they try too hard to sell the Personal Advisor Service. Flagship members used to get an annual session with a financial advisor free or charge. No more.
The only constant is CHANGE!!
SYPM
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by SYPM »

We have had Vanguard for 10+ years, never any service issue.
Bama12
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Bama12 »

Vanguard User wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:41 pm Do I need to leave Vanguard? I have a taxable account with VTSAX in it. Everything else is at Fidelity.
No, you do not need to leave Vanguard.

I have been with them 25 years and have never had an issue.
Northern Flicker
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Northern Flicker »

02nz wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:15 am
sport wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:44 am No Vanguard is not so bad. They have some faults, but they are not as bad as some posters have indicated. Some people just like to complain. Perhaps some of them have other reasons to put Vanguard in a bad light.
Ah, the evergreen Bogleheads.org response to any complaint about Vanguard, an attack on the person rather than dealing with facts. Decide for yourself if I "just like to complain" or have some ulterior motive: viewtopic.php?t=261539

OP, you don't have to hold Vanguard funds at Vanguard. The indexing operation is great, the brokerage operation is bottom of the barrel. Vanguard has made clear they have basically zero interest in retail customers unless they pay for PAS. Given that you can buy and hold almost all of their index funds as ETFs anywhere for free, why would anyone use Vanguard the brokerage?
Where can I find something comparable to any of the following at comparable cost?

VFIJX, VCOBX, VSGDX, VPGDX, VWENX

Where can I find money market funds with ERs in the 9-11 bp range (excluding when the cost is subsidized to avoid breaking the buck like most are when the Fed rate is virtually zero)?
Last edited by Northern Flicker on Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Beensabu
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Beensabu »

No, they are not so bad. And the website is easy to use. It really is.

I'm low maintenance. I called once, a few years ago, when rolling over a 401k. No real hold (I don't think - if there was, I don't remember it). A one-minute conversation to make sure I didn't screw anything up. It was a check. It took a couple weeks. Whatever. It's not the end of the world, and not even a minor inconvenience. The money made it where I needed it to go, and it was invested as I wished it to be by myself, by clicking stuff and typing a few characters.

I don't need to contact them. If I ever do have to contact them, I'll do so when I have the free time to deal with the process (because if I'm at the point where I'm actually calling, then it's because I can't do it by myself and I need a thorough explanation).

If you have a complicated issue that you can't solve yourself by reading the instructions and following them, then you need to pass the gates before you get to someone able to help you appropriately. It's the same with everywhere. Because way too many people don't read and follow the instructions, so it takes time to pass the gates.

The problem is when people think they have a complicated issue that is not actually complicated but quite routine (or not actually even an issue at all) and they are either unwilling to accept the simple solution/explanation or are unwilling to accept that they really must do X, Y, or Z in order to move forward. Those people jam up the system and enrage themselves in the process.

Phone calls are usually unnecessary. When necessary, they don't need to be long. They become long when people are unable to focus on the particulars, acknowledge procedural requirements, or accept resolutions. Essentially, they gab or complain when all they have to do is listen and/or follow the instructions.

Long wait times are due to (1) talkers and (2) impatient or confused people contacting unnecessarily and/or too frequently. It is the same with everything. The person in front of you in line having "a social interaction" or "throwing a fit" or having the exact same thing repeated to them 5 different times is the person causing you to wait, not the person dealing with them.

Some people do not understand this. Some people do, but don't care. Indulging in self-righteous indignation is fulfilling to some. If that's the only way they can get their kicks, then... I guess they can have it?

Vanguard is fine. Customers can suck. And we're all customers. You know you've been that person. We all have at some point or another.
"The only thing that makes life possible is permanent, intolerable uncertainty; not knowing what comes next." ~Ursula LeGuin
student
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by student »

Dead Man Walking wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:28 pm I’ve been investing at Vanguard since the early 1980’s and haven’t had any problems. However, I’m a low maintenance investor and have only called them a couple of times regarding QCDs. When I called, the customer service representative referred me to a retirement specialist who handled the QCD and sent me a message in my Vanguard account that showed me how to do a QCD online. I haven’t had to call on the last few years. My wife and I have retirement accounts on the mutual fund platform.

When the Vanguard Group instituted the Vanguard Marketing Corporation, I realized that I wasn’t investing with the Vanguard that Bogle started. I believe that Vanguard’s biggest problem is asset bloat, which has affected their customer service. When they began pushing the brokerage platform, I began researching ETFs. ETFs are the funds of the future, especially for taxable accounts. They can be purchased from any brokerage. Some Bogleheads believe that holding all of their accounts at Vanguard is the simplest way to invest. Others believe that having all their eggs in one basket isn’t prudent. I was in the former camp until the Vanguard Marketing Corporation began expanding into advisory services. I have moved my taxable accounts to ChaseYouInvest, which is now J.P. Morgan Self Directed, because it was simpler to invest directly from my Chase accounts to their brokerage account. Most Vanguard, BlackRock, Fidelity, and Schwab mutual funds can be purchased for free. Of course, ETFs can be purchased as well as stocks, bonds, and treasuries. I’m limited to 100 free trades per year.

Vanguard seems to have gotten “too big for their britches” from my perspective.

DMW
Limited to 100 free trades? J.P. Morgan Self Directed has unlimited online stock and ETF trading.
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by LadyGeek »

I removed an off-topic post. As a reminder, see: General Etiquette
At all times we must conduct ourselves in a respectful manner to other posters. Attacks on individuals, insults, name calling, trolling, baiting or other attempts to sow dissension are not acceptable.
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02nz
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by 02nz »

Northern Flicker wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:18 pm
02nz wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:15 am
sport wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:44 am No Vanguard is not so bad. They have some faults, but they are not as bad as some posters have indicated. Some people just like to complain. Perhaps some of them have other reasons to put Vanguard in a bad light.
Ah, the evergreen Bogleheads.org response to any complaint about Vanguard, an attack on the person rather than dealing with facts. Decide for yourself if I "just like to complain" or have some ulterior motive: viewtopic.php?t=261539

OP, you don't have to hold Vanguard funds at Vanguard. The indexing operation is great, the brokerage operation is bottom of the barrel. Vanguard has made clear they have basically zero interest in retail customers unless they pay for PAS. Given that you can buy and hold almost all of their index funds as ETFs anywhere for free, why would anyone use Vanguard the brokerage?
Where can I find something comparable to any of the following at comparable cost?

VFIJX, VCOBX, VSGDX, VPGDX, VWENX

Where can I find money market funds with ERs in the 9-11 bp range (excluding when the cost is subsidized to avoid breaking the buck like most are when the Fed rate is virtually zero)?
None of that is needed for a three-fund (or even slice-and-dice) portfolio. But if you do, by all means feel free to continue dealing with Vanguard's retail operation. Call them up right now, like you can with almost any other brokerage - oh wait you can't. Well why don't you send a secure message instead, like you can with almost any other brokerage - oh wait you can't do that either. :happy
tibbitts
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by tibbitts »

Northern Flicker wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:18 pm Where can I find something comparable to any of the following at comparable cost?

VFIJX, VCOBX, VSGDX, VPGDX, VWENX
Perhaps you could find them for free in the results from a maybe-questionably-designed random character generator?

I'm sometimes guilty of over-using abbreviations/symbols too, but you've definitely taken that beyond anywhere I've ever gone.
Blue456
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Blue456 »

tibbitts wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 11:54 am
Northern Flicker wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:18 pm Where can I find something comparable to any of the following at comparable cost?

VFIJX, VCOBX, VSGDX, VPGDX, VWENX
Perhaps you could find them for free in the results from a maybe-questionably-designed random character generator?

I'm sometimes guilty of over-using abbreviations/symbols too, but you've definitely taken that beyond anywhere I've ever gone.
VFJX = Vanguard GNMA Fund Admiral Shares
VCOBX = Vanguard Core Bond Fund Admiral Shares
VSGDX = Vanguard Short-Term Federal Fund Admiral Shares
VPGDX = Vanguard Managed Allocation Fund Investor Shares
VWENX = Vanguard Wellington™ Fund Admiral™ Shares
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illumination
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by illumination »

Assuming the recent Vanguard experiences recounted here are true (like hours on hold and eventually having to hang up during normal business hours) then yes, it is that bad. My experiences with Vanguard were bad, almost like working with a badly organized government agency or a local cable company that has a monopoly.

I think there are much better options, like Schwab and Fidelity. They just seem to do everything right, their user interface and overall technology seems several years ahead. I can also call outside normal business hours and quickly get someone on the phone. And I'm not paying an extra penny for any of it. I don't see the same negative feedback for Schwab and Fidelity that I do for Vanguard (but that could be for other reasons, maybe Vanguard is put on a pedestal here?) I would say 100-1 when people here say they've left Vanguard for another brokerage, they've been happy with the move. I think some of the people that like Vanguard have things essentially on auto-pilot and/or have not worked with other brokerages and don't know the difference. I thought Yahoo was a great search engine until I used Google.

Some people though just will not go outside of Vanguard mutual funds and refuse to use ETFs and/or another brokerages mutual fund options. If you are really wed to Vanguard mutual funds in taxable accounts and will not use ETFs, I guess you're stuck with Vanguard unless you want extra commission fees somewhere else. That's probably the best case that can be made for vanguard, but I bet outside brokerages would take care of those fees on larger accounts. I wouldn't be surprised though if eventually Vanguard itself tacks on additional penalties for mutual fund users. Last I heard, ETFs are 90% cheaper for Vanguard to administer than mutual funds. That's why they are constantly pushing mutual fund holders to convert.
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Leif
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Leif »

fwellimort wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:54 pm It's not that Vanguard is bad, it's that other brokerages are better overall.
Very nice roundup.

I also have an account at Vanguard for taxable. I have that since their mutual funds are rather tax efficient and I like mutual funds over ETFs. They have a patented process where ETFs are just a different share class of the fund. So capital gains distributions, while not impossible, are less likely. As you say, 'tho, probably not a big deal overall.

The reason I'm not fond of ETFs is I found myself trying to optimize the timing of my ETF purchase. And then trying to determine limit values just in case a market order goes in at a bad time. Plus bid/ask gaps, premium/discounts. My bid might be too low so I don't get the shares. It's all too much to worry about.
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by nalor511 »

Leif wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:47 pm
fwellimort wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:54 pm It's not that Vanguard is bad, it's that other brokerages are better overall.
Very nice roundup.

I also have an account at Vanguard for taxable. I have that since their mutual funds are rather tax efficient and I like mutual funds over ETFs. They have a patented process where ETFs are just a different share class of the fund. So capital gains distributions, while not impossible, are less likely. As you say, 'tho, probably not a big deal overall.

The reason I'm not fond of ETFs is I found myself trying to optimize the timing of my ETF purchase. And then trying to determine limit values just in case a market order goes in at a bad time. Plus bid/ask gaps, premium/discounts. My bid might be too low so I don't get the shares. It's all too much to worry about.
The better solution is to add 10 cents to your ETF limit order, rather than buy Mutual Funds, because the ER is now higher for MF. This is what I've switched to, even though I was initially resistant.
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Vanguard User »

SmileyFace wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:59 pm
Vanguard User wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:41 pm Do I need to leave Vanguard? I have a taxable account with VTSAX in it. Everything else is at Fidelity.
Not sure if you are serious but if you want to consolidate to Fidelity you can convert your VTSAX to VTI at Vanguard (non-taxable conversion) and then transfer it over to Fidelity. At Fidelity you can buy fractional shares of VTI so can continue buying it like a MF there.
I haven't done this myself yet but planning to.
That way I will have all in 1 place. Or convert VTSAX to FZROX?
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Vanguard User »

Cheez-It Guy wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:53 pm
Vanguard User wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:41 pm Do I need to leave Vanguard? I have a taxable account with VTSAX in it. Everything else is at Fidelity.
The biggest concern is it would make your username a total misnomer.
I won’t be able to VTSAX and chill either.
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Vanguard User »

Bama12 wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:34 pm
Vanguard User wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:41 pm Do I need to leave Vanguard? I have a taxable account with VTSAX in it. Everything else is at Fidelity.
No, you do not need to leave Vanguard.

I have been with them 25 years and have never had an issue.
Ok.
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by nalor511 »

illumination wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:37 pm Assuming the recent Vanguard experiences recounted here are true (like hours on hold and eventually having to hang up during normal business hours) then yes, it is that bad. My experiences with Vanguard were bad, almost like working with a badly organized government agency or a local cable company that has a monopoly.

I think there are much better options, like Schwab and Fidelity. They just seem to do everything right, their user interface and overall technology seems several years ahead. I can also call outside normal business hours and quickly get someone on the phone. And I'm not paying an extra penny for any of it. I don't see the same negative feedback for Schwab and Fidelity that I do for Vanguard (but that could be for other reasons, maybe Vanguard is put on a pedestal here?) I would say 100-1 when people here say they've left Vanguard for another brokerage, they've been happy with the move. I think some of the people that like Vanguard have things essentially on auto-pilot and/or have not worked with other brokerages and don't know the difference. I thought Yahoo was a great search engine until I used Google.

Some people though just will not go outside of Vanguard mutual funds and refuse to use ETFs and/or another brokerages mutual fund options. If you are really wed to Vanguard mutual funds in taxable accounts and will not use ETFs, I guess you're stuck with Vanguard unless you want extra commission fees somewhere else. That's probably the best case that can be made for vanguard, but I bet outside brokerages would take care of those fees on larger accounts. I wouldn't be surprised though if eventually Vanguard itself tacks on additional penalties for mutual fund users. Last I heard, ETFs are 90% cheaper for Vanguard to administer than mutual funds. That's why they are constantly pushing mutual fund holders to convert.
+1
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Northern Flicker »

02nz wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:37 am
Northern Flicker wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:18 pm
02nz wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:15 am
sport wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:44 am No Vanguard is not so bad. They have some faults, but they are not as bad as some posters have indicated. Some people just like to complain. Perhaps some of them have other reasons to put Vanguard in a bad light.
Ah, the evergreen Bogleheads.org response to any complaint about Vanguard, an attack on the person rather than dealing with facts. Decide for yourself if I "just like to complain" or have some ulterior motive: viewtopic.php?t=261539

OP, you don't have to hold Vanguard funds at Vanguard. The indexing operation is great, the brokerage operation is bottom of the barrel. Vanguard has made clear they have basically zero interest in retail customers unless they pay for PAS. Given that you can buy and hold almost all of their index funds as ETFs anywhere for free, why would anyone use Vanguard the brokerage?
Where can I find something comparable to any of the following at comparable cost?

VFIJX, VCOBX, VSGDX, VPGDX, VWENX

Where can I find money market funds with ERs in the 9-11 bp range (excluding when the cost is subsidized to avoid breaking the buck like most are when the Fed rate is virtually zero)?
None of that is needed for a three-fund (or even slice-and-dice) portfolio.
Really? How would I implement a bond portfolio that is 1/3 treasuries, 1/3 GNMAs, and 1/3 corporate bonds as cheaply as at Vanguard? The GNMA portfolio should be actively managed.

I don't use the term slice-and-dice but I believe that would be a sliced-and-diced bond portfolio in the usage others have for the term.
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Northern Flicker »

nalor511 wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:38 pm
Leif wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:47 pm
fwellimort wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:54 pm It's not that Vanguard is bad, it's that other brokerages are better overall.
Very nice roundup.

I also have an account at Vanguard for taxable. I have that since their mutual funds are rather tax efficient and I like mutual funds over ETFs. They have a patented process where ETFs are just a different share class of the fund. So capital gains distributions, while not impossible, are less likely. As you say, 'tho, probably not a big deal overall.

The reason I'm not fond of ETFs is I found myself trying to optimize the timing of my ETF purchase. And then trying to determine limit values just in case a market order goes in at a bad time. Plus bid/ask gaps, premium/discounts. My bid might be too low so I don't get the shares. It's all too much to worry about.
The better solution is to add 10 cents to your ETF limit order, rather than buy Mutual Funds, because the ER is now higher for MF. This is what I've switched to, even though I was initially resistant.
At Vanguard, you can deposit to a mutual fund share class and then convert to ETF shares at NAV. You will not have to pay a premium to NAV or half of the bid-ask spread to buy most Vanguard ETFs. This cannot be replicated at other brokerages.
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by calwatch »

I had zeroed out my Vanguard account some time ago, choosing to hold the ETFs at other brokerages, but just logged in and discovered that I'm still somehow Voyager (possibly due to householding with my mom, a loyal Wellesley holder but which I moved out many years ago). The interface literally looks like it did 10 years ago, although there is a pastiche of pages with the new, browser-size respondent design. Only the bare minimum information is provided on funds and ETFs, compared to the detailed info you might find on Schwab and Fidelity, including Morningstar ratings and lists of comparable funds/ETFs.

My mom has never had problems with Vanguard but then again she does nothing with the account other than reinvest dividends. She gets emails every month inviting her to join with PAS but ignores them.
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by UpperNwGuy »

Northern Flicker wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:55 pm At Vanguard, you can deposit to a mutual fund share class and then convert to ETF shares at NAV. You will not have to pay a premium to NAV or half of the bid-ask spread to buy most Vanguard ETFs. This cannot be replicated at other brokerages.
It is true you can do that at Vanguard but only by calling in and sitting on hold for 30-60 minutes. My time is too valuable to be doing that. It is inexcusable that Vanguard doesn't let you do the conversion to ETF online.
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by nalor511 »

Northern Flicker wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:55 pm
nalor511 wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:38 pm
Leif wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:47 pm
fwellimort wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:54 pm It's not that Vanguard is bad, it's that other brokerages are better overall.
Very nice roundup.

I also have an account at Vanguard for taxable. I have that since their mutual funds are rather tax efficient and I like mutual funds over ETFs. They have a patented process where ETFs are just a different share class of the fund. So capital gains distributions, while not impossible, are less likely. As you say, 'tho, probably not a big deal overall.

The reason I'm not fond of ETFs is I found myself trying to optimize the timing of my ETF purchase. And then trying to determine limit values just in case a market order goes in at a bad time. Plus bid/ask gaps, premium/discounts. My bid might be too low so I don't get the shares. It's all too much to worry about.
The better solution is to add 10 cents to your ETF limit order, rather than buy Mutual Funds, because the ER is now higher for MF. This is what I've switched to, even though I was initially resistant.
At Vanguard, you can deposit to a mutual fund share class and then convert to ETF shares at NAV. You will not have to pay a premium to NAV or half of the bid-ask spread to buy most Vanguard ETFs. This cannot be replicated at other brokerages.
You will have to call and wait on the phone for who knows how long at VG every single time you want to do this. No thanks.
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by bondsr4me »

This isn’t directly related to all the above, but I am currently watching (Sat 10/16) the Okla vs Tx college football game.

I just saw a “Vanguard” TV ad during the break.
I don’t recall ever seeing Vanguard do any TV advertising.

Maybe Vanguard is spending the PAS fees on advertising instead of lowering ER’s more.

Just a thought….not complaining….just a thought.

Enjoy the weekend.
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Northern Flicker »

UpperNwGuy wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:07 pm
Northern Flicker wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:55 pm At Vanguard, you can deposit to a mutual fund share class and then convert to ETF shares at NAV. You will not have to pay a premium to NAV or half of the bid-ask spread to buy most Vanguard ETFs. This cannot be replicated at other brokerages.
It is true you can do that at Vanguard but only by calling in and sitting on hold for 30-60 minutes. My time is too valuable to be doing that. It is inexcusable that Vanguard doesn't let you do the conversion to ETF online.
I called in yesterday. Hold time was less than 3 minutes. I've only had a long hold time in the afternoons of days of very high volatility, when I've also experienced long hold times at other providers. But ETF conversion phone calls do not need to happen when the market is open, so there is no need to call when hold times are long on those particular days. It is not even necessary to call at all for ETF conversions on those days, as it doesn't matter if the funds sit in mutual fund shares for some days or a week or two.

If it is worth it to you to pay a premium to NAV and half the bid-ask spread for ETF shares in order to deal with another brokerage, or to do everything online, then by all means do so.
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by BitTooAggressive »

Wife on hold 2 hours yesterday. For some reason vanguard deactivated her bank account with making transactions with vanguard. No communication that they did this. Just an error when trying to make a transaction. This might be last straw. Manager is supposed to call us. There will be some raised voices and choice words during the conversation. :annoyed

Edit: will also be calling Schwab Monday to find out about incentives.
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by ruralavalon »

calwatch wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:03 pm I had zeroed out my Vanguard account some time ago, choosing to hold the ETFs at other brokerages, but just logged in and discovered that I'm still somehow Voyager (possibly due to householding with my mom, a loyal Wellesley holder but which I moved out many years ago). The interface literally looks like it did 10 years ago, although there is a pastiche of pages with the new, browser-size respondent design. Only the bare minimum information is provided on funds and ETFs, compared to the detailed info you might find on Schwab and Fidelity, including Morningstar ratings and lists of comparable funds/ETFs.

My mom has never had problems with Vanguard but then again she does nothing with the account other than reinvest dividends. She gets emails every month inviting her to join with PAS but ignores them.
In my opinion Vanguard has everything needed for the buy-and-hold investor.
"Everything should be as simple as it is, but not simpler." - Albert Einstein | Wiki article link: Bogleheads® investment philosophy
calwatch
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by calwatch »

bondsr4me wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:17 pm This isn’t directly related to all the above, but I am currently watching (Sat 10/16) the Okla vs Tx college football game.

I just saw a “Vanguard” TV ad during the break.
I don’t recall ever seeing Vanguard do any TV advertising.

Maybe Vanguard is spending the PAS fees on advertising instead of lowering ER’s more.

Just a thought….not complaining….just a thought.

Enjoy the weekend.
Vanguard has done TV ads off and on for the past couple years now. They gave out mugs to people on a Twitter promotion in 2019. When Jack Bogle was alive they were all word of mouth with maybe some print ads and sponsorships of public radio's Marketplace show, but since his death they are advertising to get the name out, although nowhere near the level of Fidelity and Schwab.
https://www.bizjournals.com/philadelphi ... tv-ad.html
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by bondsr4me »

calwatch wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:39 pm
bondsr4me wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:17 pm This isn’t directly related to all the above, but I am currently watching (Sat 10/16) the Okla vs Tx college football game.

I just saw a “Vanguard” TV ad during the break.
I don’t recall ever seeing Vanguard do any TV advertising.

Maybe Vanguard is spending the PAS fees on advertising instead of lowering ER’s more.

Just a thought….not complaining….just a thought.

Enjoy the weekend.
Vanguard has done TV ads off and on for the past couple years now. They gave out mugs to people on a Twitter promotion in 2019. When Jack Bogle was alive they were all word of mouth with maybe some print ads and sponsorships of public radio's Marketplace show, but since his death they are advertising to get the name out, although nowhere near the level of Fidelity and Schwab.
https://www.bizjournals.com/philadelphi ... tv-ad.html
Yes…I have a few VG mugs and tee shirts too.
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Eagle33 »

BitTooAggressive wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:33 pm Wife on hold 2 hours yesterday. For some reason vanguard deactivated her bank account with making transactions with vanguard. No communication that they did this. Just an error when trying to make a transaction. This might be last straw. Manager is supposed to call us. There will be some raised voices and choice words during the conversation. :annoyed

Edit: will also be calling Schwab Monday to find out about incentives.
Why wait until Monday? Isn't Schwab available 24/7?

Did wife's account recently transitioned to new brokerage platform?
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Big Dog »

Wiggums wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:09 am Been with Fidelity and vanguard for a very long time. I like the VG mutual fund choices. I rarely have a need to call. As a buy and hold investor, I’m a happy customer.
+1
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by desconhecido »

Cheez-It Guy wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:39 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 10:50 am Vanguard has become too much like a 'parent that knows better than its children'. They will not allow their investors to buy leveraged funds, for instance. Even if I don't want to own leveraged funds, I don't want my broker to tell me what I can and cannot buy with my own money. Investors shouldn't expect these restrictions to end with leveraged funds either; that kind of mindset can lead to all sorts of restrictions.
But (good) parents often DO know better than children. It's only with age and experience that children (hopefully) realize that their parents had the best interests of their children at heart all along. And I say this as a child, not a parent.
If Vanguard were a parent helping someone with financial decisions it might be appropriate. But, they are not. They have no more business deciding how people make investment decisions than Kroger has deciding whether I drink diet soda or survive on iced cream and frozen pizza (though not frozen when eaten). Except, of course, both Vanguard and Kroger have the ability to decide what they sell. If Kroger decides to no longer sell frozen pizzas, that's their choice. Likewise with Vanguard and certain investment vehicles (like B*tc**n). Oh, man, I'm conflicted.
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by BitTooAggressive »

Eagle33 wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:21 pm
BitTooAggressive wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:33 pm Wife on hold 2 hours yesterday. For some reason vanguard deactivated her bank account with making transactions with vanguard. No communication that they did this. Just an error when trying to make a transaction. This might be last straw. Manager is supposed to call us. There will be some raised voices and choice words during the conversation. :annoyed

Edit: will also be calling Schwab Monday to find out about incentives.
Why wait until Monday? Isn't Schwab available 24/7?

Did wife's account recently transitioned to new brokerage platform?
Schwabs promotion team is Monday to Friday.
desconhecido
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by desconhecido »

Northern Flicker wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:18 pm
02nz wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:15 am
sport wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:44 am No Vanguard is not so bad. They have some faults, but they are not as bad as some posters have indicated. Some people just like to complain. Perhaps some of them have other reasons to put Vanguard in a bad light.
Ah, the evergreen Bogleheads.org response to any complaint about Vanguard, an attack on the person rather than dealing with facts. Decide for yourself if I "just like to complain" or have some ulterior motive: viewtopic.php?t=261539

OP, you don't have to hold Vanguard funds at Vanguard. The indexing operation is great, the brokerage operation is bottom of the barrel. Vanguard has made clear they have basically zero interest in retail customers unless they pay for PAS. Given that you can buy and hold almost all of their index funds as ETFs anywhere for free, why would anyone use Vanguard the brokerage?
Where can I find something comparable to any of the following at comparable cost?

VFIJX, VCOBX, VSGDX, VPGDX, VWENX

Where can I find money market funds with ERs in the 9-11 bp range (excluding when the cost is subsidized to avoid breaking the buck like most are when the Fed rate is virtually zero)?
"VFIJX, VCOBX, VSGDX, VPGDX, VWENX"

We recently transferred all our accounts to Schwab. Not because we found Vanguard to blow chunks, though sometimes the Vanguard experience was sub-optimal, but because as we get older (both 70) it may become important to have a known person to contact and other associated personal service things that Schwab does but Vanguard does not. Local office, too. Not important today, but, who knows about tomorrow.

Contacted Schwab and a guy called back later that morning and couldn't have been more helpful. Almost begged me to take $4200 "repatriation" bonus. Almost has me talked into setting up a margin account at 2.5% interest though we both agree that I don't need it and probably won't use it. My only complaint is that he's almost too helpful. But, as we age, that may become more important.

As for the Vanguard funds, as has been mentioned in the very helpful Schwab information threads, if you ask Schwab, they will give you one fund family without the purchase fees. We asked for Vanguard and they said yes.
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Beensabu »

BitTooAggressive wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:33 pm Wife on hold 2 hours yesterday. For some reason vanguard deactivated her bank account with making transactions with vanguard.
I don't suppose that there's any possibility either you or your wife might have accidentally removed the account from your profile?

Have you already tried adding it there again (since you'll probably have to anyway)?
"The only thing that makes life possible is permanent, intolerable uncertainty; not knowing what comes next." ~Ursula LeGuin
BitTooAggressive
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by BitTooAggressive »

Beensabu wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:57 pm
BitTooAggressive wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:33 pm Wife on hold 2 hours yesterday. For some reason vanguard deactivated her bank account with making transactions with vanguard.
I don't suppose that there's any possibility either you or your wife might have accidentally removed the account from your profile?

Have you already tried adding it there again (since you'll probably have to anyway)?
No the account was still there in the drop down in red. There was a message saying to print out some form have the form notarized and send to them to activate account. She used the same account about 2 months ago.

So if Vanguard thought there was a problem with the account they should have notified her. Vanguard did not. That is the main reason I am upset. I get all kinds of stupid stuff for webinars, personal advisers but nothing for a problem with a bank account. Nonsense.
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Dead Man Walking »

illumination wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:37 pm
Some people though just will not go outside of Vanguard mutual funds and refuse to use ETFs and/or another brokerages mutual fund options. If you are really wed to Vanguard mutual funds in taxable accounts and will not use ETFs, I guess you're stuck with Vanguard unless you want extra commission fees somewhere else. That's probably the best case that can be made for vanguard, but I bet outside brokerages would take care of those fees on larger accounts. I wouldn't be surprised though if eventually Vanguard itself tacks on additional penalties for mutual fund users. Last I heard, ETFs are 90% cheaper for Vanguard to administer than mutual funds. That's why they are constantly pushing mutual fund holders to convert.
Most Vanguard mutual funds are available at JP Morgan Self Directed for no commission fees. One that isn’t available is Tax-Managed Small Cap.

DMW
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Beensabu
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Beensabu »

BitTooAggressive wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:09 pm
Beensabu wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:57 pm
BitTooAggressive wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:33 pm Wife on hold 2 hours yesterday. For some reason vanguard deactivated her bank account with making transactions with vanguard.
I don't suppose that there's any possibility either you or your wife might have accidentally removed the account from your profile?

Have you already tried adding it there again (since you'll probably have to anyway)?
No the account was still there in the drop down in red. There was a message saying to print out some form have the form notarized and send to them to activate account. She used the same account about 2 months ago.

So if Vanguard thought there was a problem with the account they should have notified her. Vanguard did not. That is the main reason I am upset. I get all kinds of stupid stuff for webinars, personal advisers but nothing for a problem with a bank account. Nonsense.
That's totally weird. I can understand being frustrated. A lot of times, the error message is the notification, even if we would prefer otherwise.

It's strange that you would have to send them a notarized form to reactivate it when it's such a simple process to add it in the first place. I wonder if maybe something changed on your bank's end or they did a ping that was flagged? I guess you'll find out.

Just a suggestion, but maybe let the whole "we weren't notified" thing go so you can find out what happened and get it fixed faster. It's less satisfying, but easier.
Last edited by Beensabu on Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by abuss368 »

We moved to Vanguard a long time ago. In hindsight it was simply the best financial decision we ever made.

Thank you Jack Bogle.

Best.
Tony
John C. Bogle: “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."
BitTooAggressive
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by BitTooAggressive »

Beensabu wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:35 pm
BitTooAggressive wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:09 pm
Beensabu wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:57 pm
BitTooAggressive wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:33 pm Wife on hold 2 hours yesterday. For some reason vanguard deactivated her bank account with making transactions with vanguard.
I don't suppose that there's any possibility either you or your wife might have accidentally removed the account from your profile?

Have you already tried adding it there again (since you'll probably have to anyway)?
No the account was still there in the drop down in red. There was a message saying to print out some form have the form notarized and send to them to activate account. She used the same account about 2 months ago.

So if Vanguard thought there was a problem with the account they should have notified her. Vanguard did not. That is the main reason I am upset. I get all kinds of stupid stuff for webinars, personal advisers but nothing for a problem with a bank account. Nonsense.
That's totally weird. I can understand being frustrated. A lot of times, the error message is the notification, even if we would prefer otherwise.

It's strange that you would have to send them a notarized form to reactivate it when it's such a simple process to add it in the first place. I wonder if maybe something changed on your bank's end or they did a ping that was flagged? I guess you'll find out.

Just a suggestion, but maybe let the whole "we weren't notified" thing go so you can find out what happened and get it fixed faster. It's less satisfying, but easier.
She will call vanguard again Monday. Friday she was on hold an hour, got someone. The rep said wrong department and put her back in the queue. So after almost another hour she hung up. Just really bad by vanguard.

But the original problem could have been caused by our bank. Will share with you all what happened to cause mess. So frustrating. Really did not put us in some serious bind but vanguard needs to do better b
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by BitTooAggressive »

abuss368 wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:36 pm We moved to Vanguard a long time ago. In hindsight it was simply the best financial decision we ever made.

Thank you Jack Bogle.

Best.
Tony
We like vanguard funds too but I can have those at scwab too.
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by whodidntante »

I've never had a reason to open an account at Vanguard, so I never have. I've opened accounts at all the other major brokers though.
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by pokebowl »

Vanguard no longer provides a convenient option for those of us who live outside of their limited weekday hours of operation and are working adults. They also intentionally limit some of their services to phone only (ETF conversions for example). However their competitors have no such restrictions and account for a global modern world and offer customer service options for different time-zones, as well as offering majority of Vanguard funds commission free on their own platforms.

I've since voiced my opinion with my dollar and moved my accounts out. I tend to be brokerage agnostic, but I will move my money to where its best treated, and better options than Vanguard currently exist.
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Re: Is Vanguard so bad?

Post by Northern Flicker »

pokebowl wrote: They also intentionally limit some of their services to phone only (ETF conversions for example). However their competitors have no such restrictions...
Which competitor supports conversion of mutual fund shares to ETF shares via online access?
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