Inheriting $4M, not sure what to do

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DrDoodle
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Inheriting $4M, not sure what to do

Post by DrDoodle »

After 15 years on Team BH, Mrs Doodle and I have an investment portfolio of approx $4M, about $1M is in IRAs and $3M in taxable, 60% equity and 40% fixed income (target). I've been in denial for a while about inheritance, and now that it's happened to the tune of about another $4M I'm feeling very uneasy in several different ways. One way is about investing the inheritance; another is about whether it's time for professional tax/investment advice; the other ways are probably outside of the purview of Personal Investments.

I'm 55 retired; Mrs Doodle is 47 working $150K/year; kids 10 and 12 years old. No debt other than about $300K mortgage on house with about $800K equity.

Current investments look roughly like this:

IRA
$1.0M - Total bond index fund

Taxable
$0.4M - California muni bond index fund
$0.4M - Total international stock index
$0.3M - Small cap value index
$1.9M - Total stock index

Question #1 is about investing the $4M inheritance. If I just follow our current investment plan, I'll have another $1.6M to put into bonds/fixed income (actually more, if I take the opportunity to fix the current under-weight in bonds), and it will all have to go in taxable. Do I want to have $2M+ of California muni bond index fund? That's a lot of exposure to California; not sure I'm comfortable with that! I can put some/all of that new $1.6M into a non-tax-advantaged bond fund ... I guess at current bond yields there wouldn't be much impact on my income tax 😂, but I'm not sure how I should really be thinking about this question. I don't know much about the bond-laddering approach, but I believe that's a solution to a different problem, no?

Question #1.5 is about taking money off the table. At $8M total, it seems like "growth" isn't really my concern, so maybe it's time to shift to a more conservative strategy. I haven't looked into this lately, but are there any good low-risk fixed-income investments these days, what with bond yields so low (and inflation maybe in a rising pattern)?

Question #2 is about getting help. I've always done investments and taxes on my own. I've had a couple of introductory conversations with professional advisors but found that they were just covering stuff that I already understood. But I'm heading into uncharted territory for myself now ... investment income is likely to push us into some new tax issues, and maybe there's some stuff that we should be doing now in preparation for the fully-retired years? Am I just creating things to worry about, or is it indeed time for me to put away TurboTax and get professional help?
Last edited by DrDoodle on Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Sandtrap
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Re: Inheriting $4M, not sure what to do

Post by Sandtrap »

1. Great recommendations in the following posts by others.
2. Consider a reputable "fee only" advisor to help you with initial setup that you can easily maintain yourself and spouse if you pass on, and also beneficiaries and estate dynamics. Simple is best.
3. Seek legal counsel for estate planning (now is the time).
4. CPA and/or Tax Attorney to best optimize things (now is the time).
5. Etc.
6. There are other ways to diversify assets and income stream for various reasons. (PM me as you wish).

j :D
Last edited by Sandtrap on Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Inheriting $4M, not sure what to do

Post by grabiner »

What is your tax bracket (federal and state)?

If you are in a moderate federal tax bracket, Treasuries or TIPS may be good for some of your taxable bond investments, as they are exempt from state tax and their low yields also give them a low federal tax cost.

If you are in a high tax bracket (32% or higher), my normal recommendation for munis is to put half in Vanguard Limited-Term Tax-Exempt and half in CA Long-Term Tax-Exempt. Thus only half the bonds are in CA, but more than half the interest is exempt from CA tax.

In the 22% or 24% bracket, I would prefer Treasuries to non-CA munis.
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Re: Inheriting $4M, not sure what to do

Post by livesoft »

You can have a national tax-exempt bond fund in taxable and avoid Federal taxes, but not CA income taxes (except for the CA portion). This may lessen your concern about 100% CA tax-exempt in taxable.

I don't think you will screw this up, so I don't see any immediate need to consult with a financial sales rep, but certainly you may wish to have an estate planning attorney help you.
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Re: Inheriting $4M, not sure what to do

Post by celia »

Just invest the new money the same as your existing assets, taking into account your rebalancing needs.

You are also missing Roth space. Why don’t you both start contributing to it and convert some of that tax-deferred. Taxes are a good thing to spend some of your new-found taxable assets on to make the Roth conversions happen. It will also help reduce future taxes when RMDs start and you MUST withdraw.

The assets in Roth should be in stock funds to maximize future tax-free growth. So you will have to account for more bonds in taxable.
Last edited by celia on Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DrDoodle
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Re: Inheriting $4M, not sure what to do

Post by DrDoodle »

grabiner wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:20 pm What is your tax bracket (federal and state)?
22% federal, 9.3% California.

Why CA long term rather than intermediate? (I didn't specify, but I'm currently in CA intermediate)
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grabiner
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Re: Inheriting $4M, not sure what to do

Post by grabiner »

DrDoodle wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:27 pm
grabiner wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:20 pm What is your tax bracket (federal and state)?
22% federal, 9.3% California.

Why CA long term rather than intermediate? (I didn't specify, but I'm currently in CA intermediate)
My suggestion was half CA long-term and half national limited-term, to get an overall intermediate-term duration.

However, this is not right in the 22% bracket; national munis probably yield less than taxable bonds of comparable risk in that bracket. Therefore, I would suggest splitting between CA munis and Treasuries, avoiding the 9.3% state tax on both.

(edited to fix typo)
Last edited by grabiner on Sun Sep 26, 2021 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Inheriting $4M, not sure what to do

Post by goodenyou »

How much of this inheritance is in IRAs? Remember, there is no stretch provision any longer and you will have to take it all out within 10 years. This may impact your strategy. You will need the advice of a tax expert to sort it out if there is substantial IRA or qualified inheritance.
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Re: Inheriting $4M, not sure what to do

Post by dbr »

DrDoodle wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:10 pm

Question #1.5 is about taking money off the table. At $8M total, it seems like "growth" isn't really my concern, so maybe it's time to shift to a more conservative strategy. I haven't looked into this lately, but are there any good low-risk fixed-income investments these days, what with bond yields so low (and inflation maybe in a rising pattern)?
The answer to that depends on what you want to do with the money. How much risk there is in your portfolio does not mean anything in and of itself.

As to fixed income, those assets are as good or as bad as they ever are over the long run. If you want less risk than you can do that the same as ever. Probably the best combination of lowest risk with as much return as can be expected is about 20/80 and not 0/100. In any case poor return in fixed income doesn't matter if you have enough of it, but that depends on what you want. At the same time high risk in stocks doesn't matter if you have enough of that too, and it still depends on what you want.
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Re: Inheriting $4M, not sure what to do

Post by AnnetteLouisan »

dbr wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 1:28 pm
DrDoodle wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:10 pm

Question #1.5 is about taking money off the table. At $8M total, it seems like "growth" isn't really my concern, so maybe it's time to shift to a more conservative strategy. I haven't looked into this lately, but are there any good low-risk fixed-income investments these days, what with bond yields so low (and inflation maybe in a rising pattern)?
The answer to that depends on what you want to do with the money. How much risk there is in your portfolio does not mean anything in and of itself.

As to fixed income, those assets are as good or as bad as they ever are over the long run. If you want less risk than you can do that the same as ever. Probably the best combination of lowest risk with as much return as can be expected is about 20/80 and not 0/100. In any case poor return in fixed income doesn't matter if you have enough of it, but that depends on what you want. At the same time high risk in stocks doesn't matter if you have enough of that too, and it still depends on what you want.
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Re: Inheriting $4M, not sure what to do

Post by retired@50 »

DrDoodle wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:10 pm Question #1.5 is about taking money off the table. At $8M total, it seems like "growth" isn't really my concern, so maybe it's time to shift to a more conservative strategy. I haven't looked into this lately, but are there any good low-risk fixed-income investments these days, what with bond yields so low (and inflation maybe in a rising pattern)?
One option (that isn't bonds) that is generally considered "safe" is multi-year guaranteed annuities.

I'm not a user of MYGAs, but there is a mega-thread that discusses them. They do seem appropriate for some folks.

Please understand first, before investing.

See link: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=334589

Regards,
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Re: Inheriting $4M, not sure what to do

Post by bsteiner »

It's too bad that the decedent didn't leave it to you in a trust that you control rather than outright, to keep it out of your estate for estate tax purposes. If you're in California, the trust could have been set up so as to avoid California income tax.

If you expect to have a taxable estate, you may want to consider disclaiming (not accepting) some of it, assuming it would then go to your children and they're responsible enough to handle it (with your guidance).
Last edited by bsteiner on Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Inheriting $4M, not sure what to do

Post by fourwheelcycle »

You will always get a range of opinions on this forum, and most of them will be very valid if you share the same investment philosophy as the person offering a particular opinion. Having noted this, my opinion is that you do not need an investment advisor or a tax advisor. Managing $8M is not different than managing $4M. Keep using TurboTax. I would actually simplify your portfolio and decrease your overall bond allocation. Without knowing any details about your other current and future sources of income, or your lifestyle expenses, or your current or future desire to leave money to heirs or to charity, I would say you should move to 75% total stock index, 22% bonds, and 3% cash (checking and money market funds).

I would not invest further in your international or small cap.

I would leave your IRA as it is, unless you decide to pursue Roth conversions. Note that your IRA is a great opportunity for donation to charity upon your death (if you like charities and you want to reduce potential estate taxes), and a great opportunity for up to $100K per year in QCD gifts to charity as part of your RMD withdrawals after age 72 (if you like charities and you want to reduce your taxable estate before you die).

I don't see any reason to stay at 60:40 or to take money off the table. You "only" need to cover your living and tax expenses until you both die. With $8M invested as I have suggested, you can do that easily even if the stock market drops by fifty percent and stays there until you both die. Of course, it is very unlikely that will happen. If you want to see what is most likely to happen, go to https://retirementplans.vanguard.com/VG ... ggCalc.jsf or https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/mon ... simulation . You really do not need to pay a professional financial advisor to do this.
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Re: Inheriting $4M, not sure what to do

Post by senex »

No need to rush. Do beware of the “helper” industry, which can be hazardous for people in your situation (emotional time and a big lump sum).

Consulting an estate attorney (practicing attorney that you pay by the hour; not a salesman (financial planner) who “specializes” in estate planning) is a really good idea.
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Re: Inheriting $4M, not sure what to do

Post by mrspock »

Stick to your AA or go slightly heavier on stocks. You can afford to take more risk at this point with such a windfall. No idea why you’d need professional advice here other than estate planning.
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Re: Inheriting $4M, not sure what to do

Post by tibbitts »

Question for the OP: how were you planning to deal with the distribution requirement for the $1M inherited IRA?
informal guide
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Re: Inheriting $4M, not sure what to do

Post by informal guide »

One option to consider is setting up 529 plan accounts for your two children. Income taxes, both Federal and State, are deferred and $$ come out tax free (Federal and CA) if used on higher ed. If you and the Mrs. choose to do so, you could fund 529s for each kid up to $150k.

Because there is no CA income tax deduction for contributions to any 529 you could choose one from Vanguard, Fidelity, or Schwab - - wherever you have your other assets. At least Vanguard and Fidelity offer indexed, low expense investments that follow the Boglehead philosophy.
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Re: Inheriting $4M, not sure what to do

Post by Eagle33 »

bsteiner wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:33 pm If you expect to have a taxable estate, you may want to consider disclaiming (not accepting) some of it, assuming it would then go to your children and they're responsible enough to handle it (with your guidance).
OP's children are 12 and 10. Would you still recommend disclaiming?
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Re: Inheriting $4M, not sure what to do

Post by nigel_ht »

DrDoodle wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:10 pm After 15 years on Team BH, Mrs Doodle and I have an investment portfolio of approx $4M, about $1M is in IRAs and $3M in taxable, 60% equity and 40% fixed income (target). I've been in denial for a while about inheritance, and now that it's happened to the tune of about another $4M I'm feeling very uneasy in several different ways. One way is about investing the inheritance; another is about whether it's time for professional tax/investment advice; the other ways are probably outside of the purview of Personal Investments.

I'm 55 retired; Mrs Doodle is 47 working $150K/year; kids 10 and 12 years old. No debt other than about $300K mortgage on house with about $800K equity.

Current investments look roughly like this:

IRA
$1.0M - Total bond index fund

Taxable
$0.4M - California muni bond index fund
$0.4M - Total international stock index
$0.3M - Small cap value index
$1.9M - Total stock index

Question #1 is about investing the $4M inheritance. If I just follow our current investment plan, I'll have another $1.6M to put into bonds/fixed income (actually more, if I take the opportunity to fix the current under-weight in bonds), and it will all have to go in taxable. Do I want to have $2M+ of California muni bond index fund? That's a lot of exposure to California; not sure I'm comfortable with that! I can put some/all of that new $1.6M into a non-tax-advantaged bond fund ... I guess at current bond yields there wouldn't be much impact on my income tax 😂, but I'm not sure how I should really be thinking about this question. I don't know much about the bond-laddering approach, but I believe that's a solution to a different problem, no?

Question #1.5 is about taking money off the table. At $8M total, it seems like "growth" isn't really my concern, so maybe it's time to shift to a more conservative strategy. I haven't looked into this lately, but are there any good low-risk fixed-income investments these days, what with bond yields so low (and inflation maybe in a rising pattern)?

Question #2 is about getting help. I've always done investments and taxes on my own. I've had a couple of introductory conversations with professional advisors but found that they were just covering stuff that I already understood. But I'm heading into uncharted territory for myself now ... investment income is likely to push us into some new tax issues, and maybe there's some stuff that we should be doing now in preparation for the fully-retired years? Am I just creating things to worry about, or is it indeed time for me to put away TurboTax and get professional help?
Question 1: Yes and no. Keep your AA but diversify taxable bonds to something other than Cali. Maybe TIPS?
Question 1.5: Maybe. Doubling your portfolio DOES change your status so your IPS should be re-evaluated based on new circumstances and objectives. 4 more million can enable things that may or may not still require portfolio growth.
Question 2: $4M and $8 doesn't seem like a big difference...you should already have a team for estate planning and maybe taxes.

I would think a lot more about estate planning.
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Re: Inheriting $4M, not sure what to do

Post by Garco »

I agree with the last line by the previous poster. When we inherited cash from both sides of the family, the first thought was to guarantee the college funding of the kids. In one case that was prefunding, in the other it was paying off accumulated loan debt. Allow for the possibility of advanced degrees, not only undergrad.

Once you've addressed that you still have need for an estate plan which will include the educational costs but of course much more.
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Re: Inheriting $4M, not sure what to do

Post by bsteiner »

Eagle33 wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:04 am
bsteiner wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:33 pm If you expect to have a taxable estate, you may want to consider disclaiming (not accepting) some of it, assuming it would then go to your children and they're responsible enough to handle it (with your guidance).
OP's children are 12 and 10. Would you still recommend disclaiming?
It would depend on how likely they are to have taxable estates, whether there's another solution, whether the decedent's Will allows payment to a custodian under the Uniform Transfers to Minors Act, and how responsible their children seem to be.

It's not all or nothing so they could do this with some but not all of it.

Given the ages and the possibility of other solutions, they may not want to disclaim, or they may only want to disclaim a small portion of it.
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Re: Inheriting $4M, not sure what to do

Post by NotWhoYouThink »

Estate planning.

The inheritance was almost certainly left to one of you, not both of you. Does the inheritor have an opinion on how it should be passed down? If the inheritor dies next year, should the money go to the spouse and potentially to the spouse's future spouse and step-kids, or in trust to the inheritor's kids?

Lots of questions like that may come up in estate planning. Those questions may already have been thought through and answered, but sometimes family money puts a different spin on things.

Also, you can relax some on saving and spending. Your kids are young enough that you can pay for some family experiences that will create great memories. Not that you can't create memories on a budget, but your budget is bigger now, be creative how you use it.
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Re: Inheriting $4M, not sure what to do

Post by dboeger1 »

Beware of letting the diversification tail wag the investment portfolio dog. Yes, diversification is a very important component of Boglehead philosophy, but there's a reason relatively few Bogleheads recommend allocations to junk bonds, cryptocurrencies, leveraged options, private equity, etc. As portfolios get larger and larger, investors tend to overvalue diversification out of fear, similarly to how you're scared of being too concentrated in CA munis, so they start to chase alternative (questionable) investments with their excess funds.

There was a recent topic on here discussing the performance of institutional investors, and one of the interesting things pointed out was that certain alternatives like lumber actually tended to underperform because investors placed a huge premium on their apparent stability on paper. The irony is that the stated returns on paper didn't actually capture all the inherent risk, volatility, and illiquidity of the investments, so they tended to smooth out what could potentially be less desirable investments depending on one's circumstances.

My point is, there's a big difference between diversifying amongst the the S&P 500 and chasing yield through all the junk out there. At the end of the day, your allocation to CA munis is peanuts compared to the state's needs, and there are plenty of other states with potentially worse financial prospects that won't give you tax benefits. I think your fear is due to what feels like a large nominal amount to you given the sudden increase in your net worth. In the grand scheme of things though, I don't think your situation is so drastically different that you need to worry about your allocation to CA munis. Maybe diversify with a little bit more in US treasuries or something, but don't think you suddenly need to find some ultra-exclusive new opportunity that nobody's ever heard of to park your money in. $8m is a lot of money for most people, but it's nothing in the world of finance.
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Re: Inheriting $4M, not sure what to do

Post by Beefriendly »

After being a BH for so long, keep following your financial path if it is still allowing you to achieve your life priorities. Are there charities that would honor your values and that of your family member? Getting an estate plan done is important. And through that a natural time to reflect will arise.
Best wishes to you
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Re: Inheriting $4M, not sure what to do

Post by Boglegrappler »

Food for thought.

Read mid-page 17 to page 19

https://www.berkshirehathaway.com/letters/2011ltr.pdf
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Re: Inheriting $4M, not sure what to do

Post by doobiedoo »

Consider keeping the inheritance as separate property. This protects it in the event of divorce, however unlikely. [FWIW, I did that with a $1M inheritance.] Once the inheritance money is comingled, it can never be separate.

Definitely get estate planning advice.

I found that as my net worth increased above $5-6M, I was willing to be more aggressive. My thinking is that above a certain number, I am not dependent on those funds for my lifestyle. I will admit that it also requires a measure of confidence that one knows what to do with the investments.

Note: More aggressive does not mean investing in crypto or options trading, etc. But as several posters have said, you can have a higher allocation to equities.
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Re: Inheriting $4M, not sure what to do

Post by redmaw »

I don't have a lot of specific advise for you, but I would be wary of advice saying nothing changes in portfolio management at that level of wealth... particularly if it's coming from someone who doesn't have that kind of wealth. I will note hedgefundie (of the infamous hedgefundie s excellent adventure threads) left this site after an argument over that point. It may be worth searching out his last post and reading that thread.

Well I googled for you viewtopic.php?p=5326882#p5326882
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Re: Inheriting $4M, not sure what to do

Post by Wannaretireearly »

redmaw wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 8:07 pm I don't have a lot of specific advise for you, but I would be wary of advice saying nothing changes in portfolio management at that level of wealth... particularly if it's coming from someone who doesn't have that kind of wealth. I will note hedgefundie (of the infamous hedgefundie s excellent adventure threads) left this site after an argument over that point. It may be worth searching out his last post and reading that thread.

Well I googled for you viewtopic.php?p=5326882#p5326882
Wow what a thread that is. Almost makes me thankful I don't have that problem. Almost 😉.
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Re: Inheriting $4M, not sure what to do

Post by bds3 »

Clearly you should buy 2 million powerball tickets.
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Re: Inheriting $4M, not sure what to do

Post by Thesaints »

8M are not the same as 4M. To begin with, you should reassess your financial objectives.
You will probably find that you lready achieved some of the original ones and it may very well be the case where you should plan living larger.
redmaw wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 8:07 pm ... I would be wary of advice saying nothing changes in portfolio management at that level of wealth... particularly if it's coming from someone who doesn't have that kind of wealth.
Absolutely !!!
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Re: Inheriting $4M, not sure what to do

Post by backpacker61 »

I'm sorry for your loss. I went through something similar in 2020.

I inherited less than yours, but had a larger portfolio of my own to begin with; portfolio size afterward is similar. I sold a few of my parent's positions in some active funds (my dad tended to follow some "rock star" active fund managers in the 80's and 90's; Michael Price, Ralph Wanger, etc). I sold out of these and simply reallocated to VTSAX and VTIAX. Other positions of theirs, I elected to maintain, including some other active funds (VPMAX, VHCAX, VWLUX, GAB).

If your loss is recent, I would take some time to process the loss. I'm still grieving over the loss of my parent, and it has been over a year ago. I think it's fine to make a few changes that you are certain you will make in any case, but spend some time reflecting on others you are less certain about.

Does your wife have access to a retirement plan at work? Can she increase contributions to that with some of this money? Fund IRA's for both you and her? Fund (and invest unspent balance in) an HSA?

Your retirement risks are now lower, as your portfolio size has increased. I would personally be wary about getting help from professional advisors; while some are good, there are very many "sharks in the water".

Also, if this is from one of Mrs Doodle's parents, I would let her drive, as it's really her inheritance. You should be available to offer advice if asked.
Last edited by backpacker61 on Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Inheriting $4M, not sure what to do

Post by Armani »

Definitely spend a week at Bellagio. High stakes blackjack is fun.
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Re: Inheriting $4M, not sure what to do

Post by Silverado »

Thesaints wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:27 am 8M are not the same as 4M. To begin with, you should reassess your financial objectives.
You will probably find that you lready achieved some of the original ones and it may very well be the case where you should plan living larger.
redmaw wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 8:07 pm ... I would be wary of advice saying nothing changes in portfolio management at that level of wealth... particularly if it's coming from someone who doesn't have that kind of wealth.
Absolutely !!!
I suggest being equally wary about advice saying you must do so many different things because of the new position. Particularly if it’s coming from someone who stands to benefit from the actions they propose. Particularly also if it’s coming from someone who makes multiple millions each year. And so on.

Some of the best coaches in sports were only moderately talented players.
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Re: Inheriting $4M, not sure what to do

Post by backpacker61 »

Silverado wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:00 am I suggest being equally wary about advice saying you must do so many different things because of the new position. Particularly if it’s coming from someone who stands to benefit from the actions they propose. Particularly also if it’s coming from someone who makes multiple millions each year. And so on.
I agree 100%. After I received an inheritance, my lifestyle "before" and "after" are indistinguishable. I continue to go to my full time job every day; same as earlier. I just have a larger margin of safety than before.

Making "big changes" to "live larger" is how many people can win a state lottery and end up no better off than they were before after a few years.

Play your cards in a smart way, and it can be transformative in both your lifetime and for your children.
“Now shall I walk or shall I ride? | 'Ride,' Pleasure said; | 'Walk,' Joy replied.” | | ― W.H. Davies
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Sandtrap
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Re: Inheriting $4M, not sure what to do

Post by Sandtrap »

Inheriting $4 Mil.
Read and re read and memorize daily.

MANAGING A WINDFALL
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Managing_a_windfall

Inheriting large or substantial assets causes several things to happen:
(psychological and behavioral and human dynamic and relationship issues)

1. An impetus to "do something" and "do something now". Don't.

2. An impetus from everyone around you, and "helpful money professionals", and "helpful uncle harry" to do #1. Don't.

3. A tendency for the large inheritance to take over one's thoughts and priorities 100%. It is overwhelming. Resist. Live your life and lifestyle and routine "normally" and simply.

4. An impetus to "do a whole lot of something" and "make a whole lot of decisions" "now" to "get it over with" and resume life.
Don't. There's nothing wrong with doing nothing. This is a change in life dynamic as well and is akin to dropping a large boulder in your previously calm pond of life. Be patient. Wait for things to calm down around you and within your Self.

5. There is a point of learning more about finance and estates and all that but that doesn't mean you have to decide things "now" or do things "now". Take time to internalize all of that. There will be a point where it becomes simple and the correct decisions become obvious and have no stress to it. Wait for that to happen.

6. This is huge. There will be advice and suggestions from a bazillion people with great ideas. But, if they haven't inherited 4 million dollars or come into 4-100 million through selling a business or other means, then their point of view is highly subjective (their own based on what??) So, be very very wary and discrete. Listen courteously. But, be your "own counsel" by yourself.

Been in your shoes.
PM me as you wish.
j :D
Wiki Bogleheads Wiki: Everything You Need to Know
backpacker61
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Re: Inheriting $4M, not sure what to do

Post by backpacker61 »

One thing you should do for 2022; review your umbrella insurance coverage (if you have it) and consider upping it.

Shouldn't cost too much. And if you don't have it, you should get it.
“Now shall I walk or shall I ride? | 'Ride,' Pleasure said; | 'Walk,' Joy replied.” | | ― W.H. Davies
brainstem
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Re: Inheriting $4M, not sure what to do

Post by brainstem »

5. There is a point of learning more about finance and estates and all that but that doesn't mean you have to decide things "now" or do things "now". Take time to internalize all of that. There will be a point where it becomes simple and the correct decisions become obvious and have no stress to it. Wait for that to happen.
Had something similar happen years back --- stopped and read for 6 months:

Winning the loser's game
Against the Gods (all about risk)
Bill Bernstein
David Swenson
Beyond the Grave

Achieved a comfort level to make decisions going forward
nigel_ht
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Re: Inheriting $4M, not sure what to do

Post by nigel_ht »

Thesaints wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:27 am 8M are not the same as 4M. To begin with, you should reassess your financial objectives.
You will probably find that you lready achieved some of the original ones and it may very well be the case where you should plan living larger.
redmaw wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 8:07 pm ... I would be wary of advice saying nothing changes in portfolio management at that level of wealth... particularly if it's coming from someone who doesn't have that kind of wealth.
Absolutely !!!
Looking at it a year or two ago it doesn't seem to be much difference until you hit mid VHNW ($5M-$30M) or UHNW (30M+) levels. Yes, you technically cross into VHNW category but until you hit $15M even a shared/multi family office makes no economic sense even if you find a good one that will take you at $8M...

Until then you have your independent team of professionals (lawyer, cpa, etc) to support you. Just like at $4M. You can continue to do passive investment. Just like at $4M.

Maybe you would consider private equity deals more at $8M vs $4M but you become an accredited investor with $1M investable. If that was a serious interest you could have started dipping your toes in at $4M...but that's outside the scope of the BH path.

So what did you all do different going from <$5M to around $10M?
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Re: Inheriting $4M, not sure what to do

Post by KyleAAA »

You don't list your income requirements. Does the $150k your wife currently earns completely cover your living expenses? If so, it probably doesn't much matter what you do since you'll have ~2% withdrawal rate. You have no need to do anything fancy, although setting aside 10% or so to dabble in real estate wouldn't hurt if you're so inclined. Other than that, I'd probably stick with your current allocation if I were you. But it makes sense to reevaluate where you are in relation to your needs and wants. If that requires a portfolio change, so be it. Nobody else can answer this question for you.

Given your 22% federal tax bracket, I second the recommendation to avoid more muni bonds in taxable. Why not just the intermediate term treasury fund or ETF? No state income tax. I also 2nd the suggestion not to allocate more than 50% of your bonds to a state-specific muni fund. I don't think the extra investment income would cause any new tax issues that turbo tax couldn't handle. If you really want to minimize taxes you should consult a CPA, but it doesn't seem like paying a little extra in taxes every year would impact your retirement in any way, so it might not be worth the trouble. For me, taxes are only something to minimize insofar as it helps me reach my goal. Once I reach my goal, I no longer have a desire to minimize taxes and indeed, I find it somewhat unethical to try very hard to do so. YMMV.
Last edited by KyleAAA on Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:19 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Thesaints
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Re: Inheriting $4M, not sure what to do

Post by Thesaints »

backpacker61 wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:09 am
Silverado wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:00 am I suggest being equally wary about advice saying you must do so many different things because of the new position. Particularly if it’s coming from someone who stands to benefit from the actions they propose. Particularly also if it’s coming from someone who makes multiple millions each year. And so on.
I agree 100%. After I received an inheritance, my lifestyle "before" and "after" are indistinguishable. I continue to go to my full time job every day; same as earlier. I just have a larger margin of safety than before.

Making "big changes" to "live larger" is how many people can win a state lottery and end up no better off than they were before after a few years.

Play your cards in a smart way, and it can be transformative in both your lifetime and for your children.
Well, not in your lifetime, if lifestyle before and after are indistinguishable...
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DrDoodle
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Re: Inheriting $4M, not sure what to do

Post by DrDoodle »

OP here; thanks everyone for the condolences and the expert and thoughtful advice. There's a lot here that I can work with, but some folks asked questions so it would be impolite to not try to answer them.

The $1M IRA is not inherited, it's what I've already got.

Our $4M in current assets seems to have crept up on us without noticing (bull market, heavy savings) so we've not yet done any of the things that many consider appropriate (create a trust, retain a family lawyer and cpa). I hear people saying absolutely take care of estate planning, so I'll put that on the list.

Will definitely up our umbrella policy.

Mrs Doodle's $150K salary does entirely cover our current living expenses, even after maxing out 401K and Roth IRA. I do think that we will loosen up on our spending somewhat. I'm going to stop angsting over whether to spend the extra $1.25 to get cheese on my sandwich, for example, and I'll probably just buy the tortillas at the store that I'm at even though I know they're $1 cheaper at the other store. And I'll stop fretting over the cost of our vacations and will just enjoy creating the family memories. But I'm not going to buy an airplane or a vacation house in Jackson Hole or anything like that, so it's probably just going to be expenditure changes around the margin. Charitable donations will go up a lot, I imagine.
Thesaints
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Re: Inheriting $4M, not sure what to do

Post by Thesaints »

DrDoodle wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:08 pm OP here; thanks everyone for the condolences and the expert and thoughtful advice. There's a lot here that I can work with, but some folks asked questions so it would be impolite to not try to answer them.

The $1M IRA is not inherited, it's what I've already got.

Our $4M in current assets seems to have crept up on us without noticing (bull market, heavy savings) so we've not yet done any of the things that many consider appropriate (create a trust, retain a family lawyer and cpa). I hear people saying absolutely take care of estate planning, so I'll put that on the list.

Will definitely up our umbrella policy.

Mrs Doodle's $150K salary does entirely cover our current living expenses, even after maxing out 401K and Roth IRA. I do think that we will loosen up on our spending somewhat. I'm going to stop angsting over whether to spend the extra $1.25 to get cheese on my sandwich, for example, and I'll probably just buy the tortillas at the store that I'm at even though I know they're $1 cheaper at the other store. And I'll stop fretting over the cost of our vacations and will just enjoy creating the family memories. But I'm not going to buy an airplane or a vacation house in Jackson Hole or anything like that, so it's probably just going to be expenditure changes around the margin. Charitable donations will go up a lot, I imagine.
A quick and dirty rule of thumb is that expenses up to about 0.01% of your net worth are irrelevant. You can probably splurge on more than a $10 sandwich and not feel the difference.
NotWhoYouThink
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Re: Inheriting $4M, not sure what to do

Post by NotWhoYouThink »

It might be a good idea at this point to run a retirement calculator like FIRE Sim or whatever the wiki says is current, and see what your spending level could be and still maintain a healthy safety margin. If you are spending $80K/year now, and could be spending $200K per year, (rough guesses, I haven't tried to run your numbers) then what are you saving for?

I really believe that there is no particular virtue in thrift or vice in luxury. What is virtuous is living within your means so that your kids don't have to support you if you could have supported yourself, and being generous with others along the way. That generosity might mean charity, it might mean more generous tipping, it might mean spending in your community to support local businesses instead of ordering online from MegaCorp, it might mean contributing to fund a start-up even though you might not get the money back (or you might get even richer, and then have more problems!!)

As others have said, no need to make big changes quickly, but it is worth your time now to think about how you can best use the resources at your disposal.
Dave55
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Re: Inheriting $4M, not sure what to do

Post by Dave55 »

Sandtrap wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:17 am
Inheriting $4 Mil.
Read and re read and memorize daily.

MANAGING A WINDFALL
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Managing_a_windfall

Inheriting large or substantial assets causes several things to happen:
(psychological and behavioral and human dynamic and relationship issues)

1. An impetus to "do something" and "do something now". Don't.

2. An impetus from everyone around you, and "helpful money professionals", and "helpful uncle harry" to do #1. Don't.

3. A tendency for the large inheritance to take over one's thoughts and priorities 100%. It is overwhelming. Resist. Live your life and lifestyle and routine "normally" and simply.

4. An impetus to "do a whole lot of something" and "make a whole lot of decisions" "now" to "get it over with" and resume life.
Don't. There's nothing wrong with doing nothing. This is a change in life dynamic as well and is akin to dropping a large boulder in your previously calm pond of life. Be patient. Wait for things to calm down around you and within your Self.

5. There is a point of learning more about finance and estates and all that but that doesn't mean you have to decide things "now" or do things "now". Take time to internalize all of that. There will be a point where it becomes simple and the correct decisions become obvious and have no stress to it. Wait for that to happen.

6. This is huge. There will be advice and suggestions from a bazillion people with great ideas. But, if they haven't inherited 4 million dollars or come into 4-100 million through selling a business or other means, then their point of view is highly subjective (their own based on what??) So, be very very wary and discrete. Listen courteously. But, be your "own counsel" by yourself.

Been in your shoes.
PM me as you wish.
j :D
Jim this is excellent advice!

Dave
"Reality always wins, your only job is to get in touch with it." Wilfred Bion
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Sandtrap
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Re: Inheriting $4M, not sure what to do

Post by Sandtrap »

Dave55 wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 6:12 pm
Sandtrap wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:17 am
Inheriting $4 Mil.
Read and re read and memorize daily.

MANAGING A WINDFALL
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Managing_a_windfall

Inheriting large or substantial assets causes several things to happen:
(psychological and behavioral and human dynamic and relationship issues)

1. An impetus to "do something" and "do something now". Don't.

2. An impetus from everyone around you, and "helpful money professionals", and "helpful uncle harry" to do #1. Don't.

3. A tendency for the large inheritance to take over one's thoughts and priorities 100%. It is overwhelming. Resist. Live your life and lifestyle and routine "normally" and simply.

4. An impetus to "do a whole lot of something" and "make a whole lot of decisions" "now" to "get it over with" and resume life.
Don't. There's nothing wrong with doing nothing. This is a change in life dynamic as well and is akin to dropping a large boulder in your previously calm pond of life. Be patient. Wait for things to calm down around you and within your Self.

5. There is a point of learning more about finance and estates and all that but that doesn't mean you have to decide things "now" or do things "now". Take time to internalize all of that. There will be a point where it becomes simple and the correct decisions become obvious and have no stress to it. Wait for that to happen.

6. This is huge. There will be advice and suggestions from a bazillion people with great ideas. But, if they haven't inherited 4 million dollars or come into 4-100 million through selling a business or other means, then their point of view is highly subjective (their own based on what??) So, be very very wary and discrete. Listen courteously. But, be your "own counsel" by yourself.

Been in your shoes.
PM me as you wish.
j :D
Jim this is excellent advice!

Dave
Thanks Dave.

Yes. So many give advice on Learjets (like the 4 you own :D ) but can barely afford a used Geo Metro.

Always verify the source.
j🌺
Wiki Bogleheads Wiki: Everything You Need to Know
Finridge
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Re: Inheriting $4M, not sure what to do

Post by Finridge »

Sandtrap wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:17 am
Inheriting $4 Mil.
Read and re read and memorize daily.

MANAGING A WINDFALL
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Managing_a_windfall

Inheriting large or substantial assets causes several things to happen:
(psychological and behavioral and human dynamic and relationship issues)

1. An impetus to "do something" and "do something now". Don't.

2. An impetus from everyone around you, and "helpful money professionals", and "helpful uncle harry" to do #1. Don't.

3. A tendency for the large inheritance to take over one's thoughts and priorities 100%. It is overwhelming. Resist. Live your life and lifestyle and routine "normally" and simply.

4. An impetus to "do a whole lot of something" and "make a whole lot of decisions" "now" to "get it over with" and resume life.
Don't. There's nothing wrong with doing nothing. This is a change in life dynamic as well and is akin to dropping a large boulder in your previously calm pond of life. Be patient. Wait for things to calm down around you and within your Self.

5. There is a point of learning more about finance and estates and all that but that doesn't mean you have to decide things "now" or do things "now". Take time to internalize all of that. There will be a point where it becomes simple and the correct decisions become obvious and have no stress to it. Wait for that to happen.

6. This is huge. There will be advice and suggestions from a bazillion people with great ideas. But, if they haven't inherited 4 million dollars or come into 4-100 million through selling a business or other means, then their point of view is highly subjective (their own based on what??) So, be very very wary and discrete. Listen courteously. But, be your "own counsel" by yourself.

Been in your shoes.
PM me as you wish.
j :D

This is spot on. All of it. But especially #3. Live your life the way you've been doing it and don't think of yourself as "rich." Because while $4 million is a good chunk of change, it's pretty easy to blow through it if you're not careful. And don't think that having the money or spending it will make some huge impact on your life. And if you have tendency to spend more than you make, be worried--don't expect this tendency to go away because you have more money... See the article below.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/ ... story.html

Excerpt:
"Even knowing the odds, it’s tough to dispel the notion that hitting the jackpot would wipe away money issues....

But research shows that winning significant prizes is not the ticket to easy street. When a team of economists tracked the fortunes of financially distressed people in Florida who had won the lottery, they found that within three to five years, the winners of big prizes (between $50,000 and $150,000) were equally likely to have filed for bankruptcy as the small winners, and the groups had similarly low savings and levels of debt. According to the National Endowment for Financial Education, about 70 percent of people who win a lottery or receive a large windfall go bankrupt within a few years.

“Winning a $20 million lottery ticket won’t make you happier,” Harvard Medical School professor Sanjiv Chopra said in a recent TED talk. He cited research showing that happiness fluctuates with positive or negative changes in circumstances in the short run but that, over time, people tend to revert to their own happiness “set point.” Worse than not improving people’s lives, stories abound of lottery wins destroying them"
Thesaints
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Re: Inheriting $4M, not sure what to do

Post by Thesaints »

Yeah! And if you win big feel free to send it my way. I wouldn't like anything of that sort to happen to you.
nigel_ht
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Re: Inheriting $4M, not sure what to do

Post by nigel_ht »

Finridge wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:04 pm Live your life the way you've been doing it and don't think of yourself as "rich." Because while $4 million is a good chunk of change, it's pretty easy to blow through it if you're not careful. And don't think that having the money or spending it will make some huge impact on your life.
It’s amusing but my wife and I reviewed our finances and wondered how we could feel so poor with what we saved. 4% of $1M is $40K. $4M is a comfortable $160K but not exactly rich. At 3% it’s still not a bad $120K but a pretty standard senior engineer or programmer salary.

I guess at $8M and $320K a year one would feel wealthier but honestly in some place like the Bay Area you’d still feel pretty average…if not a bit below…

I still say $15M is where you cross over to lower end wealthy. $600K annual budget and enough NW to afford access to a multi family office and a netjets card.

At around $180K + fuel and FET that just seems too much annual spend out of an $8M portfolio if you use all 25 hours a year. And that’s a light jet…

Out of $15M I can maybe see doing that.
According to the National Endowment for Financial Education, about 70 percent of people who win a lottery or receive a large windfall go bankrupt within a few years.
This is an urban myth and the NEFE wrote a disclaimer in 2018.

“Over the past couple of years several news organizations have attributed a statistic to the National Endowment for Financial Education (NEFE) stating that 70 percent of lottery winners end up bankrupt in just a few years after receiving a large financial windfall. This statistic is not backed by research from NEFE, nor can it be confirmed by the organization. Frequent reporting—without validation from NEFE—has allowed this “stat” to survive online in perpetuity.”

https://www.nefe.org/news/2018/01/resea ... uptcy.aspx

The whole “big windfalls cause bankruptcy” thing is exaggerated by misquoting the NEFE and by financial advisors who push the idea that these folks went bankrupt because of lack of financial guidance by professionals.

That WaPo cites this two years after NEFE says it’s not correct makes me discount everything else that author writes. How hard is it for a journalist to freaking Google “NEFE 70 percent bankruptcy” and find the post where they say “no, we never said that and there’s no research that says that”.

If you don’t want your winning lottery ticket or inheritance because you fear going bankrupt you can send it to me.
Parkinglotracer
Posts: 3949
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Location: Upstate NY

Re: Inheriting $4M, not sure what to do

Post by Parkinglotracer »

I’d manage the money Using the 3 fund portfolio bogleheads love. I interned with a fee only advisor that will do just that for about 48K a year for 8 M . They may come down a few grand due to the portfolio size. They will throw in rebalancing quarterly too. Lol.
Dave55
Posts: 2018
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:51 pm

Re: Inheriting $4M, not sure what to do

Post by Dave55 »

Sandtrap wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:01 pm
Dave55 wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 6:12 pm
Sandtrap wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:17 am
Inheriting $4 Mil.
Read and re read and memorize daily.

MANAGING A WINDFALL
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Managing_a_windfall

Inheriting large or substantial assets causes several things to happen:
(psychological and behavioral and human dynamic and relationship issues)

1. An impetus to "do something" and "do something now". Don't.

2. An impetus from everyone around you, and "helpful money professionals", and "helpful uncle harry" to do #1. Don't.

3. A tendency for the large inheritance to take over one's thoughts and priorities 100%. It is overwhelming. Resist. Live your life and lifestyle and routine "normally" and simply.

4. An impetus to "do a whole lot of something" and "make a whole lot of decisions" "now" to "get it over with" and resume life.
Don't. There's nothing wrong with doing nothing. This is a change in life dynamic as well and is akin to dropping a large boulder in your previously calm pond of life. Be patient. Wait for things to calm down around you and within your Self.

5. There is a point of learning more about finance and estates and all that but that doesn't mean you have to decide things "now" or do things "now". Take time to internalize all of that. There will be a point where it becomes simple and the correct decisions become obvious and have no stress to it. Wait for that to happen.

6. This is huge. There will be advice and suggestions from a bazillion people with great ideas. But, if they haven't inherited 4 million dollars or come into 4-100 million through selling a business or other means, then their point of view is highly subjective (their own based on what??) So, be very very wary and discrete. Listen courteously. But, be your "own counsel" by yourself.

Been in your shoes.
PM me as you wish.
j :D
Jim this is excellent advice!

Dave
Thanks Dave.

Yes. So many give advice on Learjets (like the 4 you own :D ) but can barely afford a used Geo Metro.

Always verify the source.
j🌺
We have 5 Gulfstream's G550's. We never owned a Learjet.

Dave
"Reality always wins, your only job is to get in touch with it." Wilfred Bion
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