Deferring compensation

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m@ver1ck
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Deferring compensation

Post by m@ver1ck »

Our company offers the option of deferring compensation - and investing the deferred compensation through fidelity. On the other hand, I have tonnes of stocks that have appreciated more than 100%.

So - instead of paying 32% or 37% in taxes, thinking of deferring everything that would be taxed above the 22% limit. If I need more money, I can sell appreciated stock, which will only be taxed at 15%.

Thinking of deferring this all the way to 2031 - which would be my retirement age - at age 55.

I could at that point start them paying out over a period of N years, to ensure that income stays below a certain threshold.

The company is microsoft.


Thoughts?
Last edited by m@ver1ck on Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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retiredjg
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Re: Deferring compensation

Post by retiredjg »

Is this a non-governmental 457 plan or something else? What are the options for having the money distributed when you retire?

Will you be retiring early? If not, I'd be careful how much you defer. Putting off taxes until you are in a lower tax bracket is a good idea up to a point. Much past that point can become a tax bomb in later life.

Initial impression is this could be a bad idea. More information is needed.
hayesfj
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Re: Deferring compensation

Post by hayesfj »

I deferred compensation to what I thought would be Year 1 and Year 2 post retirement from Company A. Retired from Company A and went to work for Company B at a higher salary. So my deferred comp was actually taxed at a higher marginal rate than if I just paid the tax when earned. Consider deferring until you are "sure" you will be retired. In addition, tax brackets may be different in the future.
RubyTuesday
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Re: Deferring compensation

Post by RubyTuesday »

Assume this is a non-qualified deferred compensation plan. NQDC plans aren’t subject to ERISA protections, and are generally not guaranteed / protected from company creditors. There are mechanisms to mitigate this concern, but make sure you understand the funding and any protections provided. Also, they have strict distribution schedules and don’t allow early distribution (at least not initiated by participants, see below).

I participated in a NQDC plan and it worked out fine, though there was a surprise when the company ended the plan and required ALL participants to take lump sum regardless of their distribution election. I was retiring and had relatively small balance, so though it did change my tax situation for the worse, it wasn’t terrible for me. I had colleagues who had large 6-7 figure balances who had gargantuan tax hits relative to their plans.
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HomeStretch
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Re: Deferring compensation

Post by HomeStretch »

Be sure you understand the deferred comp plan provisions in the event the company files bankruptcy or is acquired or if your employment/plan/plan participation is terminated due to merger or acquisition.

Edit - does your company offer a matching contribution to this plan?
Last edited by HomeStretch on Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Deferring compensation

Post by TomatoTomahto »

retiredjg wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:00 am Is this a non-governmental 457 plan or something else? What are the options for having the money distributed when you retire?

Will you be retiring early? If not, I'd be careful how much you defer. Putting off taxes until you are in a lower tax bracket is a good idea up to a point. Much past that point can become a tax bomb in later life.

Initial impression is this could be a bad idea. More information is needed.
In addition to tax brackets changing, there’s the risk that you might be unable to control the timing of distributions (eg, some plans have a change of control provision). Murphy’s Law says the comp will be deferred until the worst possible moment.

For those reasons, we defer compensation up to the annual match amount but no higher. The match compensates well for the risks.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
mrb09
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Re: Deferring compensation

Post by mrb09 »

I have a plan like that, also at Fidelity, and I'm in 35% federal bracket. I can select a lump sum, 5 year or 10 year payout, payable at age >59.5 and termination. My election choices were really good, the usual Vanguard suspects and some some low cost Fidelity funds.

My plan is work until age 63.5, then do my five year payout. That gives me some income, but not so much that it messes with my planned Roth conversions, and it doesn't overlap with SS and RMDs,
Point
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Re: Deferring compensation

Post by Point »

Sounds interesting, until you wake up one morning to find out your company is kaput and the funds were not secured to insure transfer to you. Nothing like being 20th in line during a bankruptcy.
nordsteve
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Re: Deferring compensation

Post by nordsteve »

Factors you need to consider:

1. Potential tax savings - what will you pay in retirement vs now?
2. Probability that the company is around to pay out the deferred comp -- a combination of the creditworthiness of your employer and how far in the future you're planning to defer
3. How much of your savings are tied up in the success of the company? A bad situation would be to have 100% of your savings in company stock and deferred comp.

I participate in the nongovernmental deferred compensation plan at my employer. They have very solid financials and a strong credit rating. I routinely defer my other investments away from company stock. The deferral pays out in the next 10 years. I've limited the amount of my deferral to 10% of my total portfolio. Given those limitations I'm comfortable with that level of risk.
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m@ver1ck
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Re: Deferring compensation

Post by m@ver1ck »

FWIW - the company is microsoft.
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m@ver1ck
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Re: Deferring compensation

Post by m@ver1ck »

FWIW - the company is microsoft.
I plan to retire at 55 - and start getting these funds at that age.
PowderDay9
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Re: Deferring compensation

Post by PowderDay9 »

m@ver1ck wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:44 pm FWIW - the company is microsoft.
I plan to retire at 55 - and start getting these funds at that age.
Need more information to advise.

1. Is this a NQDC plan?

2. What are your distribution options/rules?

3. Need a better sense of your portfolio and what percentage will be in deferred comp.
Marylander1
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Re: Deferring compensation

Post by Marylander1 »

Be careful. I knew someone who had most of his retirement savings in a non-government 457 plan for a fairly well-known high tech company. First he was laid off with his entire team, then the company went bust and he lost his 457—shortly after executives pulled their retirement plan out so it survived intact.

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liynus
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Re: Deferring compensation

Post by liynus »

Bump.
Would be interested in others personal stories.
We often hear anecdotal war stories, example ENRON where execs got their NQDP out early and left everyone else to burn.
I'd be interested to guesstimate the true percent who come out ahead, vs percent that does not.

Obviously, the higher the tax bracket the more interesting:
Fed 35% + state tax hair cut makes it tempting.

Downsides are the long term credit of the company which is unpredictable.
Then the unknown tax bomb when you do pull this out, combined with the likely limitations to distribution changes.

From my own research it's important to know what happens when you leave.
What is the last point you can change distribution time, can you do lump sum or over a couple of years.
If the company is bought, what happens do you get a lump sum, or will they stick with your distribution plan.

The saying is "Bird in the hand is worth two in the bush."
With Tax Rate of Fed 35% + State 10% --- it's almost true, especially if you consider the tax free compounding by investing it.

Final thought. I would keep in mind how much your financial well being is intertwined with the company.
You are beholden to them for your annual salary, but how much company stock do you own?
Is your pension guaranteed by the company?
Consider what happens if the company blows up tomorrow.

Bottom Line:
I would advise < 10% of net worth for NQDP.
It's great if it works out (which it likely will for those at the highest bracket), but by not being greedy, it won't blow up your retirement if you lose the 10%.
MrJedi
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Re: Deferring compensation

Post by MrJedi »

What's the rest of the portfolio look like?

For example if you have very large traditional 401k/IRA, then the deferred comp might not actually help much anyway.

Microsoft probably isn't going anywhere, but I'd be a little nervous about any non qualified plan over 10 years. A few years, sure.
dcabler
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Re: Deferring compensation

Post by dcabler »

m@ver1ck wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:56 am Our company offers the option of deferring compensation - and investing the deferred compensation through fidelity. On the other hand, I have tonnes of stocks that have appreciated more than 100%.

So - instead of paying 32% or 37% in taxes, thinking of deferring everything that would be taxed above the 22% limit. If I need more money, I can sell appreciated stock, which will only be taxed at 15%.

Thinking of deferring this all the way to 2031 - which would be my retirement age - at age 55.

I could at that point start them paying out over a period of N years, to ensure that income stays below a certain threshold.

The company is microsoft.


Thoughts?
How confident are you that you will remain employed with them through 2031 or that you might not decide to leave for greener pastures on your own? I was in such a position at another tech company and participated in the deferred comp plan thinking it would be my last job and that I would retire at an otherwise lower tax rate. They had other ideas and I was part of a reduction in force. The deferred comp switched to payout mode on Jan 1st of the following year. Because by then, I had another job at similar pay, the deferred comp payouts put me in a higher bracket.

That was 9 years ago and I'm looking forward to the last check in early 2022. :D

Cheers.
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Deferring compensation

Post by TomatoTomahto »

dcabler wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:29 am How confident are you that you will remain employed with them through 2031 or that you might not decide to leave for greener pastures on your own? I was in such a position at another tech company and participated in the deferred comp plan thinking it would be my last job and that I would retire at an otherwise lower tax rate. They had other ideas and I was part of a reduction in force. The deferred comp switched to payout mode on Jan 1st of the following year. Because by then, I had another job at similar pay, the deferred comp payouts put me in a higher bracket.

That was 9 years ago and I'm looking forward to the last check in early 2022.
The BH “class warfare” response to this is often “first world problem, nice problem to have” etc., but having poorly timed compensation throws a wrench into tax/income planning. Even though my wife is nearing the end of her career, we still only defer income to the company match; they very generously match the deferral to a low 5 digit amount, which IMO offsets the timing risk.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
dcabler
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Re: Deferring compensation

Post by dcabler »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:06 am
dcabler wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:29 am How confident are you that you will remain employed with them through 2031 or that you might not decide to leave for greener pastures on your own? I was in such a position at another tech company and participated in the deferred comp plan thinking it would be my last job and that I would retire at an otherwise lower tax rate. They had other ideas and I was part of a reduction in force. The deferred comp switched to payout mode on Jan 1st of the following year. Because by then, I had another job at similar pay, the deferred comp payouts put me in a higher bracket.

That was 9 years ago and I'm looking forward to the last check in early 2022.
The BH “class warfare” response to this is often “first world problem, nice problem to have” etc., but having poorly timed compensation throws a wrench into tax/income planning. Even though my wife is nearing the end of her career, we still only defer income to the company match; they very generously match the deferral to a low 5 digit amount, which IMO offsets the timing risk.
Wow a company match on deferred comp would have been nice!
Yeah, first world problem, etc. Looking back at my post, it looks like I'm channeling KlangFool :D
PowderDay9
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Re: Deferring compensation

Post by PowderDay9 »

liynus wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 12:00 am Bump.
Would be interested in others personal stories.
We often hear anecdotal war stories, example ENRON where execs got their NQDP out early and left everyone else to burn.
I'd be interested to guesstimate the true percent who come out ahead, vs percent that does not.

Obviously, the higher the tax bracket the more interesting:
Fed 35% + state tax hair cut makes it tempting.

Downsides are the long term credit of the company which is unpredictable.
Then the unknown tax bomb when you do pull this out, combined with the likely limitations to distribution changes.

From my own research it's important to know what happens when you leave.
What is the last point you can change distribution time, can you do lump sum or over a couple of years.
If the company is bought, what happens do you get a lump sum, or will they stick with your distribution plan.

The saying is "Bird in the hand is worth two in the bush."
With Tax Rate of Fed 35% + State 10% --- it's almost true, especially if you consider the tax free compounding by investing it.

Final thought. I would keep in mind how much your financial well being is intertwined with the company.
You are beholden to them for your annual salary, but how much company stock do you own?
Is your pension guaranteed by the company?
Consider what happens if the company blows up tomorrow.

Bottom Line:
I would advise < 10% of net worth for NQDP.
It's great if it works out (which it likely will for those at the highest bracket), but by not being greedy, it won't blow up your retirement if you lose the 10%.
Great post. I'd also like to hear real world examples where NQDC didn't pay out. I think we don't hear them because it's extremely rare that large corporations go bankrupt.

Section 409A became law literally because of what happened at Enron.

https://www.institutionalinvestor.com/a ... t-on-enron

Now you have to declare your distribution schedule in advance and if you make any changes then you have to wait 5 years for that distribution to begin. It prevents a situation like Enron from ever happening again but it also really limits the flexible for all the other companies that don't go bankrupt.

I think if you're in or near the top tax bracket and your company is stable, then it probably makes sense to use it up to 10-15% of net worth.
Wagnerjb
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Re: Deferring compensation

Post by Wagnerjb »

I will share my real-world experience with a NQDC deferred compensation plan and share my strategies and advice. I worked for a major oil company for 33 years, retiring 7 years ago in early 2015. I had the ability to defer up to 50% of my salary plus up to 100% of my bonus. My first deferral was in 2007 (at age 50) and I deferred in five years between 2007 and 2013. My marginal tax rate in those years was as follows:

2007: 35%
2008: 33%
2009: 25%
2012: 25%
2013: 33%

In addition to saving income taxes at my marginal rates, in 2009 and 2012 I realized other tax benefits from the Deferral. In 2009 I reduced my AGI sufficiently to allow my wife and I to contribute to Roth IRAs. In 2012 I reduced my AGI sufficiently to allow me to take a $2500 American Opportunity Tax credit on college costs. I also avoided AMT by deferring in several of those years as well. Bottom line - the tax savings were substantial.

I retired in 2015 and the deferred comp payouts were over 5 years beginning in 2016. The Deferred comp payouts were essentially 100% of my taxable income in 3 of those five years, and was the lion's share in all the years. I had no other "fixed income" such as pensions or Social Security. Thus, I believe the average tax rate is most applicable to the analysis but I will show both average and marginal rates I paid.

2016: Average 9%, Marginal 15%
2017: Average 18%, Marginal 25%
2018: Average 20%, Marginal 24%
2019: Average 23%, Marginal 32%
2020: Average 20%, Marginal 24%

No matter which rate you use, the tax aspects were a clear winner.

Use of a NQDC plan is a trade-off between tax savings and the bankruptcy risk of the plan. I believe that an intelligent use of a NQDC plan incorporates three strategies to manage that risk. First, delay deferring until later in your career. This reduces the time that you are exposed to bankruptcy risk. Second, set the payout over a short period after retirement. This also reduces the time that you are exposed to bankruptcy risk. Third, limit the amount in your NQDC plan to 10% of your net worth. This means a total loss of the NQDC due to bankruptcy will not derail your retirement. Each of these strategies also serves to reduce the valuable tax benefits of the NQDC plan. But by intelligently managing each of these three issues one can find a balance that suits their particular taste for risk vs tax benefits.

Lastly, don't put "fixed income" in your NQDC plan. If you do, you might consider those assets to be "safe" as you view your asset allocation. But they are not "safe" in that they are exposed to sudden and immediate total loss. Be sure to classify them as risky assets, and you might as well put equities in that plan.

Best wishes.
Andy
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Re: Deferring compensation

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Re: Deferring compensation

Post by willthrill81 »

retiredjg wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:00 am Will you be retiring early? If not, I'd be careful how much you defer. Putting off taxes until you are in a lower tax bracket is a good idea up to a point. Much past that point can become a tax bomb in later life.

Initial impression is this could be a bad idea. More information is needed.
The OP is apparently already in the highest or second highest marginal tax rate. I don't see how deferring his income would result in a bigger tax hit than that unless s/he is planning on retiring to a state with significantly higher tax rates than the current state.
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Re: Deferring compensation

Post by willthrill81 »

Point wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:38 am Sounds interesting, until you wake up one morning to find out your company is kaput and the funds were not secured to insure transfer to you. Nothing like being 20th in line during a bankruptcy.
The likelihood of Microsoft suddenly going into bankruptcy is about nil.
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Re: Deferring compensation

Post by barnaclebob »

Beware that these plans may be unsecured debt from your company. Mine is unsecured and after the pandemic crash theres no way im going to be an unsecured creditor to my company. Im also not in high enough of a tax bracket where it would make a big difference.
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retiredjg
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Re: Deferring compensation

Post by retiredjg »

willthrill81 wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:57 pm
retiredjg wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:00 am Will you be retiring early? If not, I'd be careful how much you defer. Putting off taxes until you are in a lower tax bracket is a good idea up to a point. Much past that point can become a tax bomb in later life.

Initial impression is this could be a bad idea. More information is needed.
The OP is apparently already in the highest or second highest marginal tax rate. I don't see how deferring his income would result in a bigger tax hit than that unless s/he is planning on retiring to a state with significantly higher tax rates than the current state.
I don't disagree entirely. But it is a long way between 37% and 22% which is where the poster wants to be. Seems like that may mean an awful lot of tax-deferring. Is that even possible? Is going down to 22% too much? It could be if the person will be paying 25% or 28% in retirement.

Is this person just starting out or already have $1 million in tax-deferral?

We now know that early retirement is likely. That's good. And we now know the company, but doesn't Microsoft have a robust pension? That's not so good for Roth conversions.

All of these things and more are why I said more information is needed. :happy
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Re: Deferring compensation

Post by willthrill81 »

retiredjg wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:18 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:57 pm
retiredjg wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:00 am Will you be retiring early? If not, I'd be careful how much you defer. Putting off taxes until you are in a lower tax bracket is a good idea up to a point. Much past that point can become a tax bomb in later life.

Initial impression is this could be a bad idea. More information is needed.
The OP is apparently already in the highest or second highest marginal tax rate. I don't see how deferring his income would result in a bigger tax hit than that unless s/he is planning on retiring to a state with significantly higher tax rates than the current state.
I don't disagree entirely. But it is a long way between 37% and 22% which is where the poster wants to be. Seems like that may mean an awful lot of tax-deferring. Is that even possible? Is going down to 22% too much? It could be if the person will be paying 25% or 28% in retirement.

Is this person just starting out or already have $1 million in tax-deferral?

We now know that early retirement is likely. That's good. And we now know the company, but doesn't Microsoft have a robust pension? That's not so good for Roth conversions.

All of these things and more are why I said more information is needed. :happy
I agree that more information is needed. But if there is flexibility in when the deferred compensation can be paid out and the OP is planning on early retirement, this seems like a slam dunk almost regardless of any other factors except perhaps a huge pension.
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retiredjg
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Re: Deferring compensation

Post by retiredjg »

willthrill81 wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:20 pm
retiredjg wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:18 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:57 pm
retiredjg wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:00 am Will you be retiring early? If not, I'd be careful how much you defer. Putting off taxes until you are in a lower tax bracket is a good idea up to a point. Much past that point can become a tax bomb in later life.

Initial impression is this could be a bad idea. More information is needed.
The OP is apparently already in the highest or second highest marginal tax rate. I don't see how deferring his income would result in a bigger tax hit than that unless s/he is planning on retiring to a state with significantly higher tax rates than the current state.
I don't disagree entirely. But it is a long way between 37% and 22% which is where the poster wants to be. Seems like that may mean an awful lot of tax-deferring. Is that even possible? Is going down to 22% too much? It could be if the person will be paying 25% or 28% in retirement.

Is this person just starting out or already have $1 million in tax-deferral?

We now know that early retirement is likely. That's good. And we now know the company, but doesn't Microsoft have a robust pension? That's not so good for Roth conversions.

All of these things and more are why I said more information is needed. :happy
I agree that more information is needed. But if there is flexibility in when the deferred compensation can be paid out and the OP is planning on early retirement, this seems like a slam dunk almost regardless of any other factors except perhaps a huge pension.
Well, the early retirement and the pension were unknown when I replied....so no slam dunk for me. And we still do not know about how the deferred compensation is paid.

Poster talks about 32% or 37%....what happened to the 35% bracket? Is getting down to 32% as good as it will get for this person? Maybe.

I tend to agree that deferring at 37% is not far from a slam dunk. I don't agree that deferring at 32% is a slam dunk because that may be as low as some people can ever get. 32% now vs 32% later is a wash (which would argue for not deferring more).

Considering how long it has been since the original post, I suspect the poster either has the answer looked for or does not want to provide enough information for people to give any kind of reasonable opinion and suggestion. So for now, I don't think there is much of an answer to the poster's question.
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Re: Deferring compensation

Post by mayurgai »

Point wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:38 am Sounds interesting, until you wake up one morning to find out your company is kaput and the funds were not secured to insure transfer to you. Nothing like being 20th in line during a bankruptcy.
Are you just trolling or did you just insinuate that Microsoft will go kaput in the future ?
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Re: Deferring compensation

Post by willthrill81 »

mayurgai wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:26 pm
Point wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:38 am Sounds interesting, until you wake up one morning to find out your company is kaput and the funds were not secured to insure transfer to you. Nothing like being 20th in line during a bankruptcy.
Are you just trolling or did you just insinuate that Microsoft will go kaput in the future ?
At the time of that post, the OP had not clarified that the company was Microsoft.
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