How do I get my old-school uncle out of UBS Managed Account?

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How do I get my old-school uncle out of UBS Managed Account?

Post by Orangutan »

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Last edited by Orangutan on Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How do I get my old-school uncle out of UBS Managed Account?

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. »

if your uncle invested mid six figure, let's say $600,000 (that's mid six)

If he's getting $15,000 a month, that's $180,000 a year.

He would be getting back his $600,000 in 3.3 years.

Is this an short 3 or 4 year annuity or something?
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Re: How do I get my old-school uncle out of UBS Managed Account?

Post by Orangutan »

arcticpineapplecorp. wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:25 am if your uncle invested mid six figure, let's say $600,000 (that's mid six)

If he's getting $15,000 a month, that's $180,000 a year.

He would be getting back his $600,000 in 3.3 years.

Is this an short 3 or 4 year annuity or something?
The $15,000 a month is his retired friend's situation.
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Re: How do I get my old-school uncle out of UBS Managed Account?

Post by surveyor »

Stay out of it.
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Re: How do I get my old-school uncle out of UBS Managed Account?

Post by g2morrow »

there isn't enough information to figure out whats going on but it doesn't sound like you're going to be able to convince him so I wouldn't try anymore - no sense in alienated him.
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Re: How do I get my old-school uncle out of UBS Managed Account?

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. »

Orangutan wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:27 am
arcticpineapplecorp. wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:25 am if your uncle invested mid six figure, let's say $600,000 (that's mid six)

If he's getting $15,000 a month, that's $180,000 a year.

He would be getting back his $600,000 in 3.3 years.

Is this an short 3 or 4 year annuity or something?
The $15,000 a month is his retired friend's situation.
so the friend took your uncle's $600,000 and the friend (not the uncle) is getting $15,000 a month?

why would the friend be getting that if it isn't his money (it's your uncle's)?
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Re: How do I get my old-school uncle out of UBS Managed Account?

Post by DividendMickey »

My father has been with UBS for approx. 15 years, and he has way more than mid-six figures with them. He was roped in (I mean signed up) by an acquaintance at his boat club (def. not the Caddyshack kind). The acquaintance is long gone from UBS and my dad keeps cycling through advisors, who come and go every few years.

I've obliquely questioned some of what has happened (e.g,. the same annuity or whatever it is that throws off $$ per month mentioned above) and some other investments that may not be appropriate for my father at his age/circumstance but...I stay out of it. I've also tried to explain that the 1%/AUM is more than that but...I stay out of it. It's his money and he worked very hard for it, and he has zero interest in managing it. He wants to enjoy his retirement and has done so.

The amount of money they've taken from him (I mean earned) over the years has to be close to nauseating but...I stay out of it.

FWIW, I was with UBS for a few years and I left after being passed from advisor to advisor and being charged $50 (or close) for trade executions- for pushing a button.

YMMV.
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Re: How do I get my old-school uncle out of UBS Managed Account?

Post by Orangutan »

arcticpineapplecorp. wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:44 am
Orangutan wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:27 am
arcticpineapplecorp. wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:25 am if your uncle invested mid six figure, let's say $600,000 (that's mid six)

If he's getting $15,000 a month, that's $180,000 a year.

He would be getting back his $600,000 in 3.3 years.

Is this an short 3 or 4 year annuity or something?
The $15,000 a month is his retired friend's situation.
so the friend took your uncle's $600,000 and the friend (not the uncle) is getting $15,000 a month?

why would the friend be getting that if it isn't his money (it's your uncle's)?
The friend, who invested his own sum of money (and receives the $15k payout), recommended my uncle invest too.
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Re: How do I get my old-school uncle out of UBS Managed Account?

Post by livesoft »

I am not sure how to get your uncle out of UBS because by trying to do so, you are telling your unclde that his friend is an idiot and that your uncle is an idiot.

However, you might ask your uncle for some help and advice as in: "Hey, have you ever made a bad investment decision? When did you decide that it was bad and how did you get out of it?"

How about yourself? Have you ever abandoned an investment strategy yourself? What made you decide to do so? How much money did you think you lost?
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Re: How do I get my old-school uncle out of UBS Managed Account?

Post by retired@50 »

Orangutan wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:18 am He says UBS has the smartest people in the world and billions of dollars.
This ^^^ part is probably at least partially true, certainly the billions part.

That they know when to sell Microsoft or buy GE
This ^^^ part is definitely false.

(though I doubt the managed fund has him in individual stocks).
I don't doubt this ^^^

I gave a good explanation, but overall he didn't understand. I framed it as UBS stealing 1% (I assume much more, I haven't checked the expense ratios) of his money every year. He said well they're making me 3% or whatever so who cares?
So, he doesn't care if someone takes 25% of his income? He could be getting all 4%.

The expected response here is to stay out of it. However, he has no immediate family and at some point years down the road I believe he'll want me to get a bit more involved. Should I just leave it alone for now?
I really couldn't say, but it seems like you need more details to be certain of what's going on, and just how bad the situation might be.
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Re: How do I get my old-school uncle out of UBS Managed Account?

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. »

Orangutan wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:51 am
arcticpineapplecorp. wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:44 am
Orangutan wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:27 am
arcticpineapplecorp. wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:25 am if your uncle invested mid six figure, let's say $600,000 (that's mid six)

If he's getting $15,000 a month, that's $180,000 a year.

He would be getting back his $600,000 in 3.3 years.

Is this an short 3 or 4 year annuity or something?
The $15,000 a month is his retired friend's situation.
so the friend took your uncle's $600,000 and the friend (not the uncle) is getting $15,000 a month?

why would the friend be getting that if it isn't his money (it's your uncle's)?
The friend, who invested his own sum of money (and receives the $15k payout), recommended my uncle invest too.
ok, but you only say the friend put $x million with UBS.

getting a $15,000 a month payout might be good if the friend put $1 million with UBS. It might not be good if he put $5 million with UBS.

So in order to know if $15,000 a month payout is good we need to know what the "x" is in $x million you wrote. What is the "x" the friend put in UBS? Without knowing that, you know nothing.
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Re: How do I get my old-school uncle out of UBS Managed Account?

Post by UpperNwGuy »

My late father was with UBS until his advisor left UBS for Wells Fargo and my father (and his investments) went with him. My father trusted his advisor completely and was not willing to listen to any criticism. I would stay out of it.
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Re: How do I get my old-school uncle out of UBS Managed Account?

Post by sailaway »

You need details. To me, the friend's regular checks are irrelevant because you don't know what that friend's goals are and whether or not they are compatible with your uncle's goals. UBS does not have some magic money making machine.

You need to know the details of your uncle's account: fees, investments, loads, etc.

Where was this money sitting before it was invested at UBS? If he went from cash to reasonably balanced, the manager may be helping him stay invested. These managers rest earn their money at the next crash, when they keep folks from panic selling.
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Re: How do I get my old-school uncle out of UBS Managed Account?

Post by Leesbro63 »

This sounds like a "no-win" situation for the original poster. If he gets the uncle to give up the expensive advisor, there's no telling how the uncle will do on his own. Basically the uncle doesn't even know what he doesn't know. It's why we Bogleheads are such a small community. It's very hard for people to see the huge cost of small annual fees to investment advisors. In their heads, they are thinking "it's only 1% and this is so complicated".

Honestly I think I'd stay out of it. And for what it's worth, lots of people have made lots of money with investment advisors, despite the fact that they often (usually?) would have done better with a little knowledge and without the advisor and his/her fee.
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Re: How do I get my old-school uncle out of UBS Managed Account?

Post by Orangutan »

livesoft wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:56 am I am not sure how to get your uncle out of UBS because by trying to do so, you are telling your unclde that his friend is an idiot and that your uncle is an idiot.

However, you might ask your uncle for some help and advice as in: "Hey, have you ever made a bad investment decision? When did you decide that it was bad and how did you get out of it?"

How about yourself? Have you ever abandoned an investment strategy yourself? What made you decide to do so? How much money did you think you lost?
I'm not sure what you're getting at. I'm really just bothered that some guy at UBS is taking his hard-earned money.
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Re: How do I get my old-school uncle out of UBS Managed Account?

Post by Orangutan »

arcticpineapplecorp. wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:02 am
Orangutan wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:51 am
arcticpineapplecorp. wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:44 am
Orangutan wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:27 am
arcticpineapplecorp. wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:25 am if your uncle invested mid six figure, let's say $600,000 (that's mid six)

If he's getting $15,000 a month, that's $180,000 a year.

He would be getting back his $600,000 in 3.3 years.

Is this an short 3 or 4 year annuity or something?
The $15,000 a month is his retired friend's situation.
so the friend took your uncle's $600,000 and the friend (not the uncle) is getting $15,000 a month?

why would the friend be getting that if it isn't his money (it's your uncle's)?
The friend, who invested his own sum of money (and receives the $15k payout), recommended my uncle invest too.
ok, but you only say the friend put $x million with UBS.

getting a $15,000 a month payout might be good if the friend put $1 million with UBS. It might not be good if he put $5 million with UBS.

So in order to know if $15,000 a month payout is good we need to know what the "x" is in $x million you wrote. What is the "x" the friend put in UBS? Without knowing that, you know nothing.
I'm not sure of the exact investment $ or withdrawal rate, unfortunately.
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Re: How do I get my old-school uncle out of UBS Managed Account?

Post by Orangutan »

sailaway wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:21 am You need details. To me, the friend's regular checks are irrelevant because you don't know what that friend's goals are and whether or not they are compatible with your uncle's goals. UBS does not have some magic money making machine.

You need to know the details of your uncle's account: fees, investments, loads, etc.

Where was this money sitting before it was invested at UBS? If he went from cash to reasonably balanced, the manager may be helping him stay invested. These managers rest earn their money at the next crash, when they keep folks from panic selling.
The funds were sitting in cash. His advisor told him the next crash is coming in 2025 and he will adjust accordingly.
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Re: How do I get my old-school uncle out of UBS Managed Account?

Post by KingRiggs »

Orangutan wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:33 am
sailaway wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:21 am You need details. To me, the friend's regular checks are irrelevant because you don't know what that friend's goals are and whether or not they are compatible with your uncle's goals. UBS does not have some magic money making machine.

You need to know the details of your uncle's account: fees, investments, loads, etc.

Where was this money sitting before it was invested at UBS? If he went from cash to reasonably balanced, the manager may be helping him stay invested. These managers rest earn their money at the next crash, when they keep folks from panic selling.
The funds were sitting in cash. His advisor told him the next crash is coming in 2025 and he will adjust accordingly.
Oh, good...If the crash is coming in 2025, I still have time to make some money in the market!! :sharebeer
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Re: How do I get my old-school uncle out of UBS Managed Account?

Post by tibbitts »

Orangutan wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:18 am I recently spoke with my uncle and we briefly discussed business and investments. He is an old school immigrant and successful business owner. He generally avoids the stock market and has invested in hotels, small businesses, etc.

My uncle has a retired friend (also a very old school type) who several months back suggested my uncle put a mid six figure sum at UBS in a managed account. The retired friend gave $x mm to UBS and he gets a $15k check every month. I cannot imagine the amount of fees they're taking and what they're doing behind the scenes.

My uncle proceeded to give UBS the six figure sum. He told me he was happy earlier this year with the performance, but the past few months it hasn't been doing well. He says UBS has the smartest people in the world and billions of dollars. That they know when to sell Microsoft or buy GE (though I doubt the managed fund has him in individual stocks).

I gave a good explanation, but overall he didn't understand. I framed it as UBS stealing 1% (I assume much more, I haven't checked the expense ratios) of his money every year. He said well they're making me 3% or whatever so who cares?

The expected response here is to stay out of it. However, he has no immediate family and at some point years down the road I believe he'll want me to get a bit more involved. Should I just leave it alone for now?
You don't necessarily have to "leave it alone" but you were wrong to comment about it before understanding what the investment actually is and how much it's costing. Blanket statements like "stealing 1%" are just going to damage your credibility and make people dismiss everything else you say.

For example I have an annuity from a "high cost" provider that you'd say is "stealing 1%". But it pays 4% (not annuitized, although I have to take an amount the equivalent of an RMD.) I don't care if the provider is "stealing" 1% or 10% as long as they give me that guaranteed minimum 4%, because I can't get a guaranteed 4% anywhere else.
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Re: How do I get my old-school uncle out of UBS Managed Account?

Post by investnoob »

Orangutan wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:30 am
livesoft wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:56 am I am not sure how to get your uncle out of UBS because by trying to do so, you are telling your unclde that his friend is an idiot and that your uncle is an idiot.

However, you might ask your uncle for some help and advice as in: "Hey, have you ever made a bad investment decision? When did you decide that it was bad and how did you get out of it?"

How about yourself? Have you ever abandoned an investment strategy yourself? What made you decide to do so? How much money did you think you lost?
I'm not sure what you're getting at. I'm really just bothered that some guy at UBS is taking his hard-earned money.
He is telling you that it will be really difficult to convince your uncle to abandon this strategy. So you will likely have to pursue different tactics. Like trying to teach how to know when an investment strategy is not a good one. You do that by showing him how you identified what strategy you use or have maybe abandoned in the past.
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Re: How do I get my old-school uncle out of UBS Managed Account?

Post by Orangutan »

investnoob wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:44 am
Orangutan wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:30 am
livesoft wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:56 am I am not sure how to get your uncle out of UBS because by trying to do so, you are telling your unclde that his friend is an idiot and that your uncle is an idiot.

However, you might ask your uncle for some help and advice as in: "Hey, have you ever made a bad investment decision? When did you decide that it was bad and how did you get out of it?"

How about yourself? Have you ever abandoned an investment strategy yourself? What made you decide to do so? How much money did you think you lost?
I'm not sure what you're getting at. I'm really just bothered that some guy at UBS is taking his hard-earned money.
He is telling you that it will be really difficult to convince your uncle to abandon this strategy. So you will likely have to pursue different tactics. Like trying to teach how to know when an investment strategy is not a good one. You do that by showing him how you identified what strategy you use or have maybe abandoned in the past.
This makes sense.
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Re: How do I get my old-school uncle out of UBS Managed Account?

Post by sailaway »

KingRiggs wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:35 am
Orangutan wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:33 am
sailaway wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:21 am You need details. To me, the friend's regular checks are irrelevant because you don't know what that friend's goals are and whether or not they are compatible with your uncle's goals. UBS does not have some magic money making machine.

You need to know the details of your uncle's account: fees, investments, loads, etc.

Where was this money sitting before it was invested at UBS? If he went from cash to reasonably balanced, the manager may be helping him stay invested. These managers rest earn their money at the next crash, when they keep folks from panic selling.
The funds were sitting in cash. His advisor told him the next crash is coming in 2025 and he will adjust accordingly.
Oh, good...If the crash is coming in 2025, I still have time to make some money in the market!! :sharebeer
That seems like pretty poor timing for us in terms of SORR. Could we reschedule?
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Re: How do I get my old-school uncle out of UBS Managed Account?

Post by Orangutan »

tibbitts wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:41 am
Orangutan wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:18 am I recently spoke with my uncle and we briefly discussed business and investments. He is an old school immigrant and successful business owner. He generally avoids the stock market and has invested in hotels, small businesses, etc.

My uncle has a retired friend (also a very old school type) who several months back suggested my uncle put a mid six figure sum at UBS in a managed account. The retired friend gave $x mm to UBS and he gets a $15k check every month. I cannot imagine the amount of fees they're taking and what they're doing behind the scenes.

My uncle proceeded to give UBS the six figure sum. He told me he was happy earlier this year with the performance, but the past few months it hasn't been doing well. He says UBS has the smartest people in the world and billions of dollars. That they know when to sell Microsoft or buy GE (though I doubt the managed fund has him in individual stocks).

I gave a good explanation, but overall he didn't understand. I framed it as UBS stealing 1% (I assume much more, I haven't checked the expense ratios) of his money every year. He said well they're making me 3% or whatever so who cares?

The expected response here is to stay out of it. However, he has no immediate family and at some point years down the road I believe he'll want me to get a bit more involved. Should I just leave it alone for now?
You don't necessarily have to "leave it alone" but you were wrong to comment about it before understanding what the investment actually is and how much it's costing. Blanket statements like "stealing 1%" are just going to damage your credibility and make people dismiss everything else you say.

For example I have an annuity from a "high cost" provider that you'd say is "stealing 1%". But it pays 4% (not annuitized, although I have to take an amount the equivalent of an RMD.) I don't care if the provider is "stealing" 1% or 10% as long as they give me that guaranteed minimum 4%, because I can't get a guaranteed 4% anywhere else.
It's not an annuity.

He has an "advisor". From the details he provided (he doesn't have online access and can't show me), I struggle to figure out what exactly it is due to how overly complex UBS has structured everything (I assume on purpose).

Here are the numerous advisory programs UBS offers:

US Strategic Wealth Portfolio
Portfolio Management Program
Separately Managed Accounts
UBS Strategic Advisor
Mutual Fund Advisory Program
Advisor Allocation Program
Consolidated Advisory Program
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Re: How do I get my old-school uncle out of UBS Managed Account?

Post by tibbitts »

Orangutan wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:52 am It's not an annuity.

He has an "advisor". From the details he provided (he doesn't have online access and can't show me), I struggle to figure out what exactly it is due to how overly complex UBS has structured everything (I assume on purpose).

Here are the numerous advisory programs UBS offers:

US Strategic Wealth Portfolio
Portfolio Management Program
Separately Managed Accounts
UBS Strategic Advisor
Mutual Fund Advisory Program
Advisor Allocation Program
Consolidated Advisory Program
I have an "adviser" too, listed when I log on to the annuity website, so that doesn't mean he doesn't have an annuity. I've never contacted him and he's never contacted me. I should have said there's a $30 annual fee, so it pays 4%/yr less $30. There is no other adviser fee.
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Re: How do I get my old-school uncle out of UBS Managed Account?

Post by Orangutan »

tibbitts wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:58 am
Orangutan wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:52 am It's not an annuity.

He has an "advisor". From the details he provided (he doesn't have online access and can't show me), I struggle to figure out what exactly it is due to how overly complex UBS has structured everything (I assume on purpose).

Here are the numerous advisory programs UBS offers:

US Strategic Wealth Portfolio
Portfolio Management Program
Separately Managed Accounts
UBS Strategic Advisor
Mutual Fund Advisory Program
Advisor Allocation Program
Consolidated Advisory Program
I have an "adviser" too, listed when I log on to the annuity website, so that doesn't mean he doesn't have an annuity. I've never contacted him and he's never contacted me. I should have said there's a $30 annual fee, so it pays 4%/yr less $30. There is no other adviser fee.
He does not have an annuity. I know this through other things he mentioned.
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Re: How do I get my old-school uncle out of UBS Managed Account?

Post by livesoft »

Orangutan wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:30 amI'm not sure what you're getting at.
What if you discuss this with your uncle and he says
Orangutan's Uncle wrote:I'm not sure what you're getting at.
What is your next step?
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Re: How do I get my old-school uncle out of UBS Managed Account?

Post by eye.surgeon »

Orangutan wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:18 am I recently spoke with my uncle and we briefly discussed business and investments. He is an old school immigrant and successful business owner. He generally avoids the stock market and has invested in hotels, small businesses, etc.

My uncle has a retired friend (also a very old school type) who several months back suggested my uncle put a mid six figure sum at UBS in a managed account. The retired friend gave $x mm to UBS and he gets a $15k check every month. I cannot imagine the amount of fees they're taking and what they're doing behind the scenes.

My uncle proceeded to give UBS the six figure sum. He told me he was happy earlier this year with the performance, but the past few months it hasn't been doing well. He says UBS has the smartest people in the world and billions of dollars. That they know when to sell Microsoft or buy GE (though I doubt the managed fund has him in individual stocks).

I gave a good explanation, but overall he didn't understand. I framed it as UBS stealing 1% (I assume much more, I haven't checked the expense ratios) of his money every year. He said well they're making me 3% or whatever so who cares?

The expected response here is to stay out of it. However, he has no immediate family and at some point years down the road I believe he'll want me to get a bit more involved. Should I just leave it alone for now?
Not your business, not your problem. He's made millions without your advice, he'll be OK. Don't sour family relationships trying to solve other people's finances.
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Re: How do I get my old-school uncle out of UBS Managed Account?

Post by LiveSimple »

Come on, be nice, UBS folks also have to make a living 🤣
Invest when you have the money, sell when you need the money, for real life expenses...
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Re: How do I get my old-school uncle out of UBS Managed Account?

Post by Orangutan »

livesoft wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:15 am
Orangutan wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:30 amI'm not sure what you're getting at.
What if you discuss this with your uncle and he says
Orangutan's Uncle wrote:I'm not sure what you're getting at.
What is your next step?
I will create an illustration in excel with no fee vs. 2% fee and attempt to show what is lost to costs.
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Re: How do I get my old-school uncle out of UBS Managed Account?

Post by Always passive »

Orangutan wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:18 am I recently spoke with my uncle and we briefly discussed business and investments. He is an old school immigrant and successful business owner. He generally avoids the stock market and has invested in hotels, small businesses, etc.

My uncle has a retired friend (also a very old school type) who several months back suggested my uncle put a mid six figure sum at UBS in a managed account. The retired friend gave $x mm to UBS and he gets a $15k check every month. I cannot imagine the amount of fees they're taking and what they're doing behind the scenes.

My uncle proceeded to give UBS the six figure sum. He told me he was happy earlier this year with the performance, but the past few months it hasn't been doing well. He says UBS has the smartest people in the world and billions of dollars. That they know when to sell Microsoft or buy GE (though I doubt the managed fund has him in individual stocks).

I gave a good explanation, but overall he didn't understand. I framed it as UBS stealing 1% (I assume much more, I haven't checked the expense ratios) of his money every year. He said well they're making me 3% or whatever so who cares?

The expected response here is to stay out of it. However, he has no immediate family and at some point years down the road I believe he'll want me to get a bit more involved. Should I just leave it alone for now?
UBS is a bank. I know them well because I have clients in their Swiss bank. They have a significant amount of resources and their performance depends exclusively on the mandate you give them: they have managed funds and index funds, etc. Further, their fees are very negotiable.
They may or may not be a fit for your uncle, thus, before you jump to conclusions, try to understand what they do and why and investigate their fees - Talk to them (need your uncle's ok) and then decide.
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Re: How do I get my old-school uncle out of UBS Managed Account?

Post by sailaway »

Orangutan wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:32 am
livesoft wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:15 am
Orangutan wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:30 amI'm not sure what you're getting at.
What if you discuss this with your uncle and he says
Orangutan's Uncle wrote:I'm not sure what you're getting at.
What is your next step?
I will create an illustration in excel with no fee vs. 2% fee and attempt to show what is lost to costs.
Is he paying a 2% fee? It isn't going to help to make up numbers just to illustrate your point, that just makes you look arrogant about your own way of doing things, independent of the facts.

If he doesn't have online access, has he not gotten paper statements yet (they may be quarterly)? The paperwork he signed off on originally? If he doesn't, then he needs to set up a meeting with his advisor to discuss these things.
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Re: How do I get my old-school uncle out of UBS Managed Account?

Post by namajones »

surveyor wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:29 am Stay out of it.
+1
Mr. Rumples
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Re: How do I get my old-school uncle out of UBS Managed Account?

Post by Mr. Rumples »

You brought it up with good intentions and were rebuffed..let it go. I'm in a similar situation with my niece and her family. When she mentioned they were thinking about starting a 529, I was surprised, that they hadn't done this since they have had their first child. I just told them that when they want to talk about investing, let me know. So far, no a peep.

One issue with some older folks is that even if they don't understand, its difficult to admit it. Maybe the way to look at it is that he has savings and be glad of that.
Last edited by Mr. Rumples on Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How do I get my old-school uncle out of UBS Managed Account?

Post by tibbitts »

Orangutan wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:32 am
livesoft wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:15 am
Orangutan wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:30 amI'm not sure what you're getting at.
What if you discuss this with your uncle and he says
Orangutan's Uncle wrote:I'm not sure what you're getting at.
What is your next step?
I will create an illustration in excel with no fee vs. 2% fee and attempt to show what is lost to costs.
Most people probably believe a skilled adviser could easily overcome a 2% fee, so nothing would be "lost" to costs. And how do you know costs are 2%? What are these 0%-cost investments you're suggesting as an alternative? My experience with a similar situation is that you have to be 100% accurate and correct about everything you claim, because you get one bite at the credibility apple. An adviser has a huge firm and reputation behind him. What are your qualifications?
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Re: How do I get my old-school uncle out of UBS Managed Account?

Post by Orangutan »

tibbitts wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:00 am
Orangutan wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:32 am
livesoft wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:15 am
Orangutan wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:30 amI'm not sure what you're getting at.
What if you discuss this with your uncle and he says
Orangutan's Uncle wrote:I'm not sure what you're getting at.
What is your next step?
I will create an illustration in excel with no fee vs. 2% fee and attempt to show what is lost to costs.
An adviser has a huge firm and reputation behind him. What are your qualifications?
I work in buy-side risk management on Wall Street.
mr_brightside
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Re: How do I get my old-school uncle out of UBS Managed Account?

Post by mr_brightside »

you brought it up.

he waved you off.

done. next question? :happy

------------------------------------------
NotWhoYouThink
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Re: How do I get my old-school uncle out of UBS Managed Account?

Post by NotWhoYouThink »

What would you propose your uncle move TO? Not just from?

There is no end of terrible decisions your uncle could make with his money if he skips the advisors and manages it himself. He can try picking stocks, chasing performance, timing the market, changing his plan ever few months, concentrating assets in on segment just before that segment crashes, retreating to cash out of fear and being crushed by inflation.......

He'll pay a stiff fee at UBS, but probably won't lose it all due to mismanagement. The advisor isn't really picking the investments, there is a back office team that picks investments bases on a checklist your uncle signed about his investment goals and risk tolerance. The investments may not be optimal but are unlikely to be terrible. The job of the advisor is to hold his hand and have him recruit his friends just as he was recruited.

Your best bet is to leave it alone. He is better off losing 2% a year to UBS than losing it all because you convinced him to strike out on his own.
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Re: How do I get my old-school uncle out of UBS Managed Account?

Post by tibbitts »

Orangutan wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:04 am
tibbitts wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:00 am
Orangutan wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:32 am
livesoft wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:15 am
Orangutan wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:30 amI'm not sure what you're getting at.
What if you discuss this with your uncle and he says
Orangutan's Uncle wrote:I'm not sure what you're getting at.
What is your next step?
I will create an illustration in excel with no fee vs. 2% fee and attempt to show what is lost to costs.
An adviser has a huge firm and reputation behind him. What are your qualifications?
I work in buy-side risk management on Wall Street.
Then you have credibility most of the rest of us don't and you can launch a full-scale assault on UBS. But I'm absolutely shocked that given your profession you wouldn't be doing whatever was necessary to analyze this down to the last cent in accuracy.
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Re: How do I get my old-school uncle out of UBS Managed Account?

Post by livesoft »

Orangutan wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:32 amI will create an illustration in excel with no fee vs. 2% fee and attempt to show what is lost to costs.
I guess my point is that numbers will not mean a darn thing at this point. You have to address the emotions.
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Re: How do I get my old-school uncle out of UBS Managed Account?

Post by Katietsu »

I would recommend that you start by putting aside your emotional response to the fees UBS is charging. I understand. I have been there. But it is not helpful. It sounds like uncle will be fine even with the fees.

I would prioritize encouraging him not to add additional funds over getting him to move these funds. In the meantime, I would also try educate him against the worst options he might be offered. For instance, I talked to a relative about a ridiculous universal life policy offered to me through my employer under the guise of a LTC alternative. By telling it as my story and highlighting the negatives, I think I might have lowered the chance of this being sold to them. But who knows?

And as others have suggested, you need to consider the alternative. It does not sound like your uncle is a good candidate for DIY or even for an online only robo advisor. So, uncle will need to pay for the service of a live financial adviser. Have you identified an option that you think is significantly better? You would lose credibility with me if you showed me a spreadsheet with 0 cost. As my FIL said, the financial adviser has got to make a living.
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Re: How do I get my old-school uncle out of UBS Managed Account?

Post by AnnetteLouisan »

He probably went with UBS for the trust and international aspect. 1 percent is worth it to him. Just be nice to him!! Engage with him about his life lessons from business.
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Re: How do I get my old-school uncle out of UBS Managed Account?

Post by Mullins »

Orangutan wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:32 am I will create an illustration in excel with no fee vs. 2% fee and attempt to show what is lost to costs.
That's not what concerns him. You said so:
Orangutan wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:18 am He said well they're making me 3% or whatever so who cares?
I say leave it alone. He's aware of your points. He sees no reason to change anything based on that.

What's so new school about index funds anyhow? I've had mine since the 1980's.
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Re: How do I get my old-school uncle out of UBS Managed Account?

Post by dbr »

Your uncle doesn't know what he is doing. We don't now how well he understands that he doesn't know what he is doing. The working assumption is that in his mind you don't need to know what you are doing, though it is strange that a successful businessman would think that.

I have no suggestion for what you can do about it, if anything.

Maybe you could suggest that he might be interested in looking at some stuff about investing and send him to getting started in the Wiki, if he like to go onto a computer and read stuff. Some people like to explore new material and learn things and other people like to think that what a friend does is what he should do.
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Re: How do I get my old-school uncle out of UBS Managed Account?

Post by almostretired1965 »

The way you need to think about this is to realize that from your uncle's POV, you have less credibility as a financial advisor than UBS. He is not going to listen to you until you have convinced him otherwise. Coming up with better arguments about why he is getting ripped off is not going to work since that is not the real issue....... I"m not saying I know exactly how to do that, btw. I do know it is very likely to be a fool's errand. My wife, an otherwise sensible woman, has been wedded to her broker/advisor (originally Paine Webber and now UBS) from before we met. For a long, long time she was convinced he could do no wrong. Admittedly, despite his rather high fees, her account has actually done reasonably well over the years. It took years of demonstrated competence on my part in managing our joint accounts for her to finally realize that I knew what I was talking about, even when I was just a broke ass grad student .........
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Re: How do I get my old-school uncle out of UBS Managed Account?

Post by Orangutan »

tibbitts wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:22 am
Orangutan wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:04 am
tibbitts wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:00 am
Orangutan wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:32 am
livesoft wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:15 am
What if you discuss this with your uncle and he says

What is your next step?
I will create an illustration in excel with no fee vs. 2% fee and attempt to show what is lost to costs.
An adviser has a huge firm and reputation behind him. What are your qualifications?
I work in buy-side risk management on Wall Street.
Then you have credibility most of the rest of us don't and you can launch a full-scale assault on UBS. But I'm absolutely shocked that given your profession you wouldn't be doing whatever was necessary to analyze this down to the last cent in accuracy.
Could you be any more demeaning in your replies?
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Re: How do I get my old-school uncle out of UBS Managed Account?

Post by sailaway »

Orangutan wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:03 pm
tibbitts wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:22 am
Orangutan wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:04 am
tibbitts wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:00 am
Orangutan wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:32 am

I will create an illustration in excel with no fee vs. 2% fee and attempt to show what is lost to costs.
An adviser has a huge firm and reputation behind him. What are your qualifications?
I work in buy-side risk management on Wall Street.
Then you have credibility most of the rest of us don't and you can launch a full-scale assault on UBS. But I'm absolutely shocked that given your profession you wouldn't be doing whatever was necessary to analyze this down to the last cent in accuracy.
Could you be any more demeaning in your replies?
By the, this is how your attitude to your uncle comes across. You have ridiculed methods of actually communicating as irrelevant and decided to illustrate your point of view with made up percentages.
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Re: How do I get my old-school uncle out of UBS Managed Account?

Post by Orangutan »

sailaway wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:13 pm
Orangutan wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:03 pm
tibbitts wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:22 am
Orangutan wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:04 am
tibbitts wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:00 am
An adviser has a huge firm and reputation behind him. What are your qualifications?
I work in buy-side risk management on Wall Street.
Then you have credibility most of the rest of us don't and you can launch a full-scale assault on UBS. But I'm absolutely shocked that given your profession you wouldn't be doing whatever was necessary to analyze this down to the last cent in accuracy.
Could you be any more demeaning in your replies?
By the, this is how your attitude to your uncle comes across. You have ridiculed methods of actually communicating as irrelevant and decided to illustrate your point of view with made up percentages.
Where have I ridiculed methods of actually communicating as irrelevant? I misunderstood Livesoft's following reply and later acknowledged it by stating "That makes sense".

Livesoft post:

I am not sure how to get your uncle out of UBS because by trying to do so, you are telling your unclde that his friend is an idiot and that your uncle is an idiot.

However, you might ask your uncle for some help and advice as in: "Hey, have you ever made a bad investment decision? When did you decide that it was bad and how did you get out of it?"

How about yourself? Have you ever abandoned an investment strategy yourself? What made you decide to do so? How much money did you think you lost?


As for your comment on my illustration using made up percentages, Vanguard does exactly what I suggested and they use the same numbers to show that costs matter.

See here: https://investor.vanguard.com/investing ... t-of-costs
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Re: How do I get my old-school uncle out of UBS Managed Account?

Post by dukeblue219 »

Not everyone wants their investments optimized. They want something that works and they can ignore. It might be stupid expensive, but so be it.

If this were elder abuse or a pyramid scheme or something I'd get involved, but this is just someone making a relatively normal investing decision. Recommend BH and index funds, ask how his thing is doing, but don't be the jerk trying to tell him he needs to make more money.

It's as annoying as someone telling you unsolicited that if you worked for another company in a different field you could earn a higher salary. Some people are just happy where they are. Being told you could make more money implies you don't have enough as it is and that's very antagonistic.
Last edited by dukeblue219 on Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How do I get my old-school uncle out of UBS Managed Account?

Post by sailaway »

You aren't trying to convince a general population that costs matter. You are trying to convince a specific individual that their costs are too high. You can't argue that in good faith without knowing their costs.
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Re: How do I get my old-school uncle out of UBS Managed Account?

Post by Orangutan »

sailaway wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:45 pm You aren't trying to convince a general population that costs matter. You are trying to convince a specific individual that their costs are too high. You can't argue that in good faith without knowing their costs.
It seems reasonable to first illustrate a concept using a clear example.
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