Leaving Vanguard

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bondsr4me
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Re: Leaving Vanguard

Post by bondsr4me »

BigDrop wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:32 pm I am 74 years old and have been with Schwab since the ‘80’s. I can reach a human being on the phone 7 days a week, 24 hours a day. (800 #, type in account #, password and two digits with a very short wait). I also have a dedicated broker at Schwab that I can call.

This kind of access is irreplaceable for me.

And I have not been charged a penny for a VG trade in more than a decade.
+1.....I totally agree with your post.
UpperNwGuy
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Re: Leaving Vanguard

Post by UpperNwGuy »

PowderDay9 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:23 pm
UpperNwGuy wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:32 pm What credit card did they close? According to their website, both of their credit cards are still open for new applications.
They use to have a Schwab invest first visa that gave 2% cash back on all purchases. It's been about a decade since they closed it. At that point they had exited the credit card business.

https://bucks.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/09 ... as-schwab/
So you still hold that against them eleven years later?

Two thoughts:
1. A 2% cash back card was highly unusual in 2010 and before. Most cards were 1% cash back, and a few were 1.5%. By the standards of that era, Schwab was overreaching by setting up a 2% card, so if they started to lose money on the product, I'm not surprised that they cancelled it. When Citi introduced the 2% Double Cash Visa in 2015, many pundits predicted it would be a money-loser and would have to be cancelled after a year. However, Citi made it work, so other financial institutions were forced to compete. It would be unfair to apply today's norms to 2010 and before.
2. Schwab now has a robust credit card partnership with American Express that seems to be working well for both parties. That partnership has been around for nearly a decade. Customers seem to be happy with it.

But credit cards are a sideshow in the brokerage industry. The main event is investing. Are you accusing Schwab of willy nilly shutting down core investing products, too?
BrokerageZelda
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Re: Leaving Vanguard

Post by BrokerageZelda »

UpperNwGuy wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:10 am
PowderDay9 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:23 pm
UpperNwGuy wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:32 pm What credit card did they close? According to their website, both of their credit cards are still open for new applications.
They use to have a Schwab invest first visa that gave 2% cash back on all purchases. It's been about a decade since they closed it. At that point they had exited the credit card business.

https://bucks.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/09 ... as-schwab/
So you still hold that against them eleven years later?

Two thoughts:
1. A 2% cash back card was highly unusual in 2010 and before. Most cards were 1% cash back, and a few were 1.5%. By the standards of that era, Schwab was overreaching by setting up a 2% card, so if they started to lose money on the product, I'm not surprised that they cancelled it. When Citi introduced the 2% Double Cash Visa in 2015, many pundits predicted it would be a money-loser and would have to be cancelled after a year. However, Citi made it work, so other financial institutions were forced to compete. It would be unfair to apply today's norms to 2010 and before.
2. Schwab now has a robust credit card partnership with American Express that seems to be working well for both parties. That partnership has been around for nearly a decade. Customers seem to be happy with it.

But credit cards are a sideshow in the brokerage industry. The main event is investing. Are you accusing Schwab of willy nilly shutting down core investing products, too?
I was under the impression (hinted at in the NYT article) that FIA, as a unit of Bank of America, backed out of the credit card deal when BOA absorbed Merrill Lynch during the Great Recession, making it a conflict of interest for BOA to steer business toward a direct competitor.

My family had the Schwab 2% card - we miss having the combination of flat 2% back + no annual fee + no foreign transaction fee, and to my knowledge you won't find that anywhere among the major issuers today.
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8foot7
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Re: Leaving Vanguard

Post by 8foot7 »

Schwab is fantastic, and even better, in the rare instance they've messed something up for me, they take ownership, fix it, and then make right whatever happened.

My jaw almost dropped at the victim blaming earlier in this thread. If a scheduled transaction has worked many times in the past, the customer did nothing to change it, and then it fails with no notice due to an involuntary change on the part of the brokerage, then yes, the customer has a right to be angry at the brokerage and expect recompense for actual damages incurred. That applies to Schwab, Fidelity, and yes, even blessed low-cost Vanguard.
PowderDay9
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Re: Leaving Vanguard

Post by PowderDay9 »

UpperNwGuy wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:10 am So you still hold that against them eleven years later?

Two thoughts:
1. A 2% cash back card was highly unusual in 2010 and before. Most cards were 1% cash back, and a few were 1.5%. By the standards of that era, Schwab was overreaching by setting up a 2% card, so if they started to lose money on the product, I'm not surprised that they cancelled it. When Citi introduced the 2% Double Cash Visa in 2015, many pundits predicted it would be a money-loser and would have to be cancelled after a year. However, Citi made it work, so other financial institutions were forced to compete. It would be unfair to apply today's norms to 2010 and before.
2. Schwab now has a robust credit card partnership with American Express that seems to be working well for both parties. That partnership has been around for nearly a decade. Customers seem to be happy with it.

But credit cards are a sideshow in the brokerage industry. The main event is investing. Are you accusing Schwab of willy nilly shutting down core investing products, too?
I'm buying taxable investments and planning to hold for many decades. It's widely known that Schwab has to serve two masters, their clients and their stockholders. I don't trust them as much as I'd trust Vanguard over a period of many decades. That's all I'm saying.
rich126
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Re: Leaving Vanguard

Post by rich126 »

Everyone has different "needs". Personally I'm surprised how many stick with Vanguard since I've used many others over the years and currently have accounts at TD, Schwab and Fidelity. The only benefit I see with Vanguard is the access to their mutual funds that don't have an ETF equivalent. Anything else I prefer at any of the other 3 brokerages.

My Fidelity account is due to my current employer and they may be the best overall although I prefer the trading interface, gainskeeper of TD but that may be due to my using them for a long time.

I think most of Vanguard customers are mutual fund people and long timers who don't like change.
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galawdawg
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Re: Leaving Vanguard

Post by galawdawg »

PowderDay9 wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:20 pm I'm buying taxable investments and planning to hold for many decades. It's widely known that Schwab has to serve two masters, their clients and their stockholders. I don't trust them as much as I'd trust Vanguard over a period of many decades. That's all I'm saying.
You trust Vanguard over Schwab? Try this....download Schwab's annual report and look at how they spend their money...take, for example, executive compensation. Now contact Vanguard and ask for the same information. Let me know how that goes! :happy

Here's my thinking. If you hold VTSAX or another US total stock index fund at Schwab, you win both ways. You are a Schwab client AND you are a Schwab shareholder (indirectly). With Vanguard, you are only a client. And those who think that somehow Vanguard's financial success is ending up in the client's pockets...I don't think so. This is not the "altruistic" Vanguard that Jack built. Instead, the Vanguard Group is vacuuming up record profits, causing their "partnership" dividends (i.e., profits paid to Vanguard executives and other employees) to rise at a rate exponentially higher than the S&P 500 did over the same period of time. From the Philadelphia Inquirer:

Image

Notice in that chart how the trends began diverging after 1999 and partnership dividends began rapidly pulling away from the S&P 500? I wonder what could have happened around 1999? Could it have had anything to do with the fact that Bogle left his role as senior chairman at Vanguard at that time and had no further involvement in the leadership or management at Vanguard, having been "put out to pasture" by his successors? (Although Jack took that opportunity to continue his "investors first" crusade in other ways all the way up until his passing in 2019).

But let's assume that Vanguard does pass along or return their profits to the "client-owners". Now it is a win-win-win. You win when you receive Schwab's great service because you hold your investments there. You win when Schwab serves their stockholders and they make a nice profit because as a holder of a diversified US stock index fund, you are indirectly a Schwab stockholder. And you win when and if Vanguard returns profits to the client-owners because if you hold Vanguard funds at Schwab, you are still a Vanguard client-owner. Being a customer of Vanguard brokerage doesn't make you a client-owner, holding their funds does (no matter where you hold them)!

As far as service, Schwab has been top-notch for us. I recently had a minor question about their Investor Checking account. I called my local Schwab representative but received his voice mail. I left a brief message that I would just email my question and that there was no urgency in responding. Five minutes after I emailed the question, I received a call from my Schwab rep who had a Schwab bank representative on hold. He conferenced her in and my question was answered in moments, all within minutes of first communicating the question. Seriously...who does that? Absolutely incredible service. And thus far, all of my experiences have been similar.

:sharebeer
Tattarrattat
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Re: Leaving Vanguard

Post by Tattarrattat »

galawdawg wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:59 pm
PowderDay9 wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:20 pm I'm buying taxable investments and planning to hold for many decades. It's widely known that Schwab has to serve two masters, their clients and their stockholders. I don't trust them as much as I'd trust Vanguard over a period of many decades. That's all I'm saying.
You trust Vanguard over Schwab? Try this....download Schwab's annual report and look at how they spend their money...take, for example, executive compensation. Now contact Vanguard and ask for the same information. Let me know how that goes! :happy

Here's my thinking. If you hold VTSAX or another US total stock index fund at Schwab, you win both ways. You are a Schwab client AND you are a Schwab shareholder (indirectly). With Vanguard, you are only a client. And those who think that somehow Vanguard's financial success is ending up in the client's pockets...I don't think so. This is not the "altruistic" Vanguard that Jack built. Instead, the Vanguard Group is vacuuming up record profits, causing their "partnership" dividends (i.e., profits paid to Vanguard executives and other employees) to rise at a rate exponentially higher than the S&P 500 did over the same period of time. From the Philadelphia Inquirer:

Image

Notice in that chart how the trends began diverging after 1999 and partnership dividends began rapidly pulling away from the S&P 500? I wonder what could have happened around 1999? Could it have had anything to do with the fact that Bogle left his role as senior chairman at Vanguard at that time and had no further involvement in the leadership or management at Vanguard, having been "put out to pasture" by his successors? (Although Jack took that opportunity to continue his "investors first" crusade in other ways all the way up until his passing in 2019).

But let's assume that Vanguard does pass along or return their profits to the "client-owners". Now it is a win-win-win. You win when you receive Schwab's great service because you hold your investments there. You win when Schwab serves their stockholders and they make a nice profit because as a holder of a diversified US stock index fund, you are indirectly a Schwab stockholder. And you win when and if Vanguard returns profits to the client-owners because if you hold Vanguard funds at Schwab, you are still a Vanguard client-owner. Being a customer of Vanguard brokerage doesn't make you a client-owner, holding their funds does (no matter where you hold them)!

As far as service, Schwab has been top-notch for us. I recently had a minor question about their Investor Checking account. I called my local Schwab representative but received his voice mail. I left a brief message that I would just email my question and that there was no urgency in responding. Five minutes after I emailed the question, I received a call from my Schwab rep who had a Schwab bank representative on hold. He conferenced her in and my question was answered in moments, all within minutes of first communicating the question. Seriously...who does that? Absolutely incredible service. And thus far, all of my experiences have been similar.

:sharebeer
Very good post. This trope that Vanguard is some kind of charity is really worn out. Schwab as a public company is far more transparent and far more accountable. And if you want to talk about ancient virtuous history, Schwab broke down financial walls to benefit small brokerage investors in the 70s just like Bogle did for mutual fund investors. So one can feel good about the company if one really needs to. Furthermore how many insurance companies using a mutual type of structure are held up as altruistic role models? Quite the opposite. Vanguard's customer friendly reputation is all attributable to Bogle the man, who was truly unique. It doesn't apply to the company that succeeded him.
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Cheez-It Guy
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Re: Leaving Vanguard

Post by Cheez-It Guy »

^Amica Mutual is pretty good for an insurance company.
backpacker61
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Re: Leaving Vanguard

Post by backpacker61 »

rich126 wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:28 pm Everyone has different "needs". Personally I'm surprised how many stick with Vanguard since I've used many others over the years and currently have accounts at TD, Schwab and Fidelity. The only benefit I see with Vanguard is the access to their mutual funds that don't have an ETF equivalent. Anything else I prefer at any of the other 3 brokerages.
This is pretty big to me.

I like Vanguard's active tax exempt bond funds, and some of their other active equity funds that are still quite low cost (PrimeCap, Capital Opportunity, etc).

Their stock trading interface is "good enough" for my needs.
I think most of Vanguard customers are mutual fund people and long timers who don't like change.
I'm fine with changes that are beneficial. I first invested with Vanguard before there was an internet for them to have a web site on, and you mailed a paper check in a paper envelope to make an investment. They didn't even have a brokerage at that point; it was strictly a mutual fund shop.
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mkc
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Re: Leaving Vanguard

Post by mkc »

Wild Willie wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:33 pm
DoubleComma wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:41 am Do you need to re-buy your position in those funds? If you transfer in kind those shared from VG to Schwab you would be an existing investor not a new one.
That's what I plan to do. Schwab rep just called back, while I can buy and sell Wellington since I'm an existing investor, they don't offer the Admiral version unless one is an institutional investor.
FYI (I also posted in another thread), in researching Schwab today it appears one can buy Admiral shares of Wellington (VWENX) if one is an existing shareholder. At least on their website, there is no mention of needing to be an institutional investor for VWENX

https://www.schwab.com/research/mutual- ... mary/vwenx

Global Wellington (VGWAX) does have that limitation displayed on its summary page at Schwab.
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mangorunner
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Re: Leaving Vanguard

Post by mangorunner »

greenway23 wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:17 pm I really wanted to use Schwab because I think they have the best website and banking combination, but there were a couple deal-breakers:
(1) its index mutual funds distribute some capital gains (and I don't want to use ETFs or pay commissions to buy Vanguard MFs); and
(2) no total international index mutual fund.
What is your opposition to ETFs? Not being snarky; I'm very, very new to investing and interested to learn. Thank you in advance for your advice.
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nedsaid
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Re: Leaving Vanguard

Post by nedsaid »

edudad wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:02 pm I have had Vanguard and moved all my assets to Schwab, after trying out schwab over several years.

1. Their portal is way nicer than Vanguard.
2. The ETF universe makes Schwab a winner in terms of fund choices.
3. Schwab, let's you trade ETFs, MFs, Stocks, Options and futures all in one platform.
4. Their customer service is amazing, from basic questions regarding accounts to more advance derivatives trading. They have lots of specialists that are quiet knowledgeable, responsible and friendly.

5. Cherry on top - they acquired TDAmeritrade which comes with Think or Swim platform, one of the best platforms to trade. Schwab notified that they are integrating it schwab accounts by Q3.
I would like to know how the Schwab/TD AmeriTrade integration is going. Hopefully, customer service will continue to be excellent at the combined company.
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Re: Leaving Vanguard

Post by lazynovice »

mangorunner wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 6:49 pm
greenway23 wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:17 pm I really wanted to use Schwab because I think they have the best website and banking combination, but there were a couple deal-breakers:
(1) its index mutual funds distribute some capital gains (and I don't want to use ETFs or pay commissions to buy Vanguard MFs); and
(2) no total international index mutual fund.
What is your opposition to ETFs? Not being snarky; I'm very, very new to investing and interested to learn. Thank you in advance for your advice.
It is a personal preference. There are a multitude of threads discussing it each week. Here is the link to the wiki page on it

https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/ETFs_vs_mutual_funds
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Re: Leaving Vanguard

Post by RickBoglehead »

Cheez-It Guy wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:55 pm ^Amica Mutual is pretty good for an insurance company.
:D
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Bama12
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Re: Leaving Vanguard

Post by Bama12 »

I feel out of place on this board because I'm a slice and dice guy with 12 funds. I also play with stocks and crypto.

About once a week I read a Schwab, Fidelity and Vanguard thread. I test drove all the others and I'm still at Vanguard.
I have no idea how so many have issues with Vanguard. I think they are great and the very few times I did need to call them they were great.

How do so many on this board only have 3 funds but think they need someone to call on 24/7?
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Re: Leaving Vanguard

Post by Vanguard User »

Bad CS because Bogle passed away?
lazynovice
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Re: Leaving Vanguard

Post by lazynovice »

Bama12 wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:44 pm I feel out of place on this board because I'm a slice and dice guy with 12 funds. I also play with stocks and crypto.

About once a week I read a Schwab, Fidelity and Vanguard thread. I test drove all the others and I'm still at Vanguard.
I have no idea how so many have issues with Vanguard. I think they are great and the very few times I did need to call them they were great.

How do so many on this board only have 3 funds but think they need someone to call on 24/7?
I consolidated everything to Fidelity but like you I never had any issues with Vanguard customer service. 24/7 service was a big reason I chose Fidelity though.

I still work and when I tend to need assistance, it is at night or on the weekend. I can’t count on having time to sit on hold to wait for a representative during the workday. I also live in MST so a call center open 8-8 EST is open 6-6 for me. If you live in PST, that’s 5-5.

I can’t remember a weekend where there hasn’t been a post from someone who discovers an issue with their Vanguard account on Saturday morning and have no recourse until Monday morning.

I don’t think the number of funds drives the need to call. It is probably the number of accounts or the types of transactions. I think those who use their brokerage for money market funds have more of a need to withdraw. If you are just depositing and investing, you don’t have as many issues. Taking money out seems to be a problem. It also seems that Vanguard does a lot of things with little or poor explanation. In the case of the OP, he got no notification of the exact day of his account conversion-just a 16 month window. He got no warning that his automatic transactions would not work during that conversion.
Bama12
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Re: Leaving Vanguard

Post by Bama12 »

lazynovice wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 11:23 pm
Bama12 wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:44 pm I feel out of place on this board because I'm a slice and dice guy with 12 funds. I also play with stocks and crypto.

About once a week I read a Schwab, Fidelity and Vanguard thread. I test drove all the others and I'm still at Vanguard.
I have no idea how so many have issues with Vanguard. I think they are great and the very few times I did need to call them they were great.

How do so many on this board only have 3 funds but think they need someone to call on 24/7?
I consolidated everything to Fidelity but like you I never had any issues with Vanguard customer service. 24/7 service was a big reason I chose Fidelity though.

I still work and when I tend to need assistance, it is at night or on the weekend. I can’t count on having time to sit on hold to wait for a representative during the workday. I also live in MST so a call center open 8-8 EST is open 6-6 for me. If you live in PST, that’s 5-5.

I can’t remember a weekend where there hasn’t been a post from someone who discovers an issue with their Vanguard account on Saturday morning and have no recourse until Monday morning.

I don’t think the number of funds drives the need to call. It is probably the number of accounts or the types of transactions. I think those who use their brokerage for money market funds have more of a need to withdraw. If you are just depositing and investing, you don’t have as many issues. Taking money out seems to be a problem. It also seems that Vanguard does a lot of things with little or poor explanation. In the case of the OP, he got no notification of the exact day of his account conversion-just a 16 month window. He got no warning that his automatic transactions would not work during that conversion.
I think they all 3 are good. It really just depends on your needs.

I really only buy Vanguard funds and ETFS. In 25 years with Vanguard, I have never had an issue.
nalor511
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Re: Leaving Vanguard

Post by nalor511 »

Bama12 wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:44 pm I feel out of place on this board because I'm a slice and dice guy with 12 funds. I also play with stocks and crypto.

About once a week I read a Schwab, Fidelity and Vanguard thread. I test drove all the others and I'm still at Vanguard.
I have no idea how so many have issues with Vanguard. I think they are great and the very few times I did need to call them they were great.

How do so many on this board only have 3 funds but think they need someone to call on 24/7?
Anyone can have an issue. When it's *you* and *your* money on the line, it can feel really important. Schwab and fidelity have 24/7 support, vanguard does not. It's your choice.
aj44
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Re: Leaving Vanguard

Post by aj44 »

Decided to move some of my business from Vanguard for bonus offers and extra credit card cash back. I just had to make myself good with Vanguard ETF's over Vanguard mutual funds and VTEB Tax Exempt Bond Index instead of Intermediate Term Tax Exempt.

I'll move the rest when there are more offers.

Getting rid of Vanguard Advantage checking and customer service getting worse pushed me to consider other brokerages, I'm still on board with only Vanguard funds. I also kind of felt a loyalty to Jack while he was alive to keep my brokerage Vanguard.
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Cheez-It Guy
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Re: Leaving Vanguard

Post by Cheez-It Guy »

Bama12 wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:44 pm I feel out of place on this board because I'm a slice and dice guy with 12 funds. I also play with stocks and crypto.

About once a week I read a Schwab, Fidelity and Vanguard thread. I test drove all the others and I'm still at Vanguard.
I have no idea how so many have issues with Vanguard. I think they are great and the very few times I did need to call them they were great.

How do so many on this board only have 3 funds but think they need someone to call on 24/7?
I appreciate your balanced perspective.
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Re: Leaving Vanguard

Post by pokebowl »

Bama12 wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:44 pm How do so many on this board only have 3 funds but think they need someone to call on 24/7?
Not all of us are within the same timezone as Vanguard. Add to that a working professional and our time to get support is limited. Vanguard states their current CS hours of operation are Monday–Friday 8 a.m. to 7 p.m., Eastern time. For my timezone that is 4 a.m. to 3 p.m.

Not to mention Vanguard has taken great care to hide their updated CS phone numbers on their website, its buried now in various category support pages and not easy to find (Though don't tell them they forgot about the old contact us page on their "about us" section which still lists the numbers). There are also some services that requires a call for that Vanguard does not support on either their website nor secure message system, such as mutual fund share conversions.

I am financial firm agnostic, never been a fan of any, but I'll move my money to where it is best treated. In the early 00s-10s that was Vanguard. They had the cheapest offerings for what I wanted at the time with great support. Now their competition has caught up and lapsed them. I've since been slowly moving the remainder of my money out of them over the last couple years as taxes allow. Should they ever regain their competitive edge, I'll move back, but right now superior options are available. :beer
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Re: Leaving Vanguard

Post by tj »

pokebowl wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 2:31 pm
Bama12 wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:44 pm How do so many on this board only have 3 funds but think they need someone to call on 24/7?
Not to mention Vanguard has taken great care to hide their updated CS phone numbers on their website, its buried now in various category support pages and not easy to find.
There's a phone number for Voyager Services right at the top of my Statement that was issued on 6/30.
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galawdawg
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Re: Leaving Vanguard

Post by galawdawg »

pokebowl wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 2:31 pm
Bama12 wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:44 pm How do so many on this board only have 3 funds but think they need someone to call on 24/7?
Not all of us are within the same timezone as Vanguard. Add to that a working professional and our time to get support is limited. Vanguard states their current CS hours of operation are Monday–Friday 8 a.m. to 7 p.m., Eastern time. For my timezone that is 4 a.m. to 3 p.m.
In addition to the inconvenience posed to some Vanguard customers by their limited hours, the recent thread linked below reports a situation with Vanguard that could have been largely minimized or even completely avoided if that OP had been able to reach Vanguard customer service in a timely fashion.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=352345&p

tldr summary: That OP on a Saturday saw that money had been removed from their Vanguard settlement account the previous day without their knowledge or permission. The OP was concerned that the account had been compromised and prudently emailed fraud@vanguard.com (since the OP could not reach Vanguard CS until Monday). OP later learned when he was able to contact Vanguard CS that Vanguard had made an error concerning the movement of a dividend payment which resulted in funds being removed from their settlement account. However, the account remained locked due to the OP's report of the issue to fraud@vanguard.com on Saturday. The Vanguard representatives could not/would not unlock the account nor would/could the Vanguard representatives connect the OP with the fraud department.

All of that was the result of Vanguard's error in movement of a dividend payment compounded by their lack of Saturday hours, preventing OP from inquiring about the issue in a timely fashion.

So while some fervent Vanguard fans will subtly imply (or overtly state) that desiring 24/7 customer service is unreasonable, a wise Boglehead who seeks high value and high quality in their investments and in their business relationships is completely justified in finding competent, responsive and conveniently available customer service an important consideration when choosing a brokerage. :beer
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Re: Leaving Vanguard

Post by bondsr4me »

galawdawg wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 4:37 pm
pokebowl wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 2:31 pm
Bama12 wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:44 pm How do so many on this board only have 3 funds but think they need someone to call on 24/7?
Not all of us are within the same timezone as Vanguard. Add to that a working professional and our time to get support is limited. Vanguard states their current CS hours of operation are Monday–Friday 8 a.m. to 7 p.m., Eastern time. For my timezone that is 4 a.m. to 3 p.m.
In addition to the inconvenience posed to some Vanguard customers by their limited hours, the recent thread linked below reports a situation with Vanguard that could have been largely minimized or even completely avoided if that OP had been able to reach Vanguard customer service in a timely fashion.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=352345&p

tldr summary: That OP on a Saturday saw that money had been removed from their Vanguard settlement account the previous day without their knowledge or permission. The OP was concerned that the account had been compromised and prudently emailed fraud@vanguard.com (since the OP could not reach Vanguard CS until Monday). OP later learned when he was able to contact Vanguard CS that Vanguard had made an error concerning the movement of a dividend payment which resulted in funds being removed from their settlement account. However, the account remained locked due to the OP's report of the issue to fraud@vanguard.com on Saturday. The Vanguard representatives could not/would not unlock the account nor would/could the Vanguard representatives connect the OP with the fraud department.

All of that was the result of Vanguard's error in movement of a dividend payment compounded by their lack of Saturday hours, preventing OP from inquiring about the issue in a timely fashion.

So while some fervent Vanguard fans will subtly imply (or overtly state) that desiring 24/7 customer service is unreasonable, a wise Boglehead who seeks high value and high quality in their investments and in their business relationships is completely justified in finding competent, responsive and conveniently available customer service an important consideration when choosing a brokerage. :beer
+1…..well said.
MishkaWorries
Posts: 1362
Joined: Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:39 pm

Re: Leaving Vanguard

Post by MishkaWorries »

galawdawg wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:20 pm
goingup wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:53 pm I’ve always figured Schwab would be my next broker if we ever left VG. There are a few things I’ve read here that give me pause.

One is the buying fees for VG mutual funds. I see that people say they can be waived . What does that look like in practice? Do you have to call or email after every purchase and ask for a credit? That sounds unappealing.

Another is the inability to buy admiral funds. Unless that has changed?

Lastly, I’ve read you can’t select specific lots to sell online. You must call customer service and request they sell the lots you have chosen. That would be cumbersome.

I’d likely have fewer issues if we held ETFs, but we don’t. Dinosaurs like me should probably stay put. :D
If the fees are waived for VG mutual funds, they are simply not charged on the transaction. When you review the summary screen of the buy order prior to clicking "submit", you'll see no transaction fee and no fee is charged. No calls or emails necessary, it is entirely transparent. There are no fees to sell VG mutual funds for any Schwab client.

Most admiral funds are available, including VTSAX, VFIAX, VBTLX, VITAX and so on. There are several funds where you have to hold the investor class shares, rather than admiral class shares, but that is the exception. And there are a few funds available at Vanguard that are either not available at Schwab or are only available to existing investors in that fund.

You are correct that if you want to sell specific ID lots, you must contact Schwab to execute the trade. However, they have several lot options you can preselect, such as FIFO, LIFO, high cost lot, low cost lot and tax optimizer. Tax optimizer is often a good default option:
Tax Lot Optimizer™ (TLO): Lots are selected with the objective of taking losses first (short term then long term) and gains last (long term then short term). Any shares moved will be processed using the HCLOT method. Lots with missing cost basis will be selected after lots with known cost basis are selected.
Hope that helps!
I'm not sure the bolder part is correct. I remember playing around on Schwab in preparation of maybe doing tax lost harvesting. Schwab had a Specified Lot option. It looks to my inexperienced eye as the same as spec ID. Or maybe I'm missing something.


Specified lots:
Manually select from a list of eligible lots which lots are sold at the time of trade up until the settlement date. Note that lots established today are not eligible for assignment. Either check All to assign an entire lot to be closed or enter a quantity. The Open Date and Hold Period columns can help you figure out the potential tax ramifications of closing a particular lot.
We plan. G-d laughs.
schildkrote
Posts: 46
Joined: Mon May 18, 2020 10:07 pm

Re: Leaving Vanguard

Post by schildkrote »

I have my Roth and a Brokerage account with VG. The last two times I tried to call Vanguard for a simple customer service action I was on hold for nearly 45 minutes waiting to talk to a representative on top of making my way through a maze of automated menu items, none of which was the reason I was calling. Extremely aggravating to say the least and got me thinking of a potential move in the near future. I have also been considering Schwab as my 401k is already through them and didn't have to wait nearly as long to speak to someone in the past.

However, I am unsure of how some of my Vanguard funds would transfer to Schwab. I am fine not buying anymore of these mutual funds and just leaving them in their admiral share status, but that brings on the questions:

1. Will these mutual funds still even have admiral status with the lower E/R at Schwab or is that a perk you can only have holding them at VG?

2. Are the purchase fees that some people are talking about only applicable to VG mutual funds and not the ETFs?

3. Are there fees to sell VG mutual funds on Schwab?

It almost seems it may be easier to liquidate the VG funds that incur fees and THEN make the transfer.
lazynovice
Posts: 3369
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:48 pm
Location: Denver area. Former Texan.

Re: Leaving Vanguard

Post by lazynovice »

MishkaWorries wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 4:47 pm
galawdawg wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:20 pm
goingup wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:53 pm I’ve always figured Schwab would be my next broker if we ever left VG. There are a few things I’ve read here that give me pause.

One is the buying fees for VG mutual funds. I see that people say they can be waived . What does that look like in practice? Do you have to call or email after every purchase and ask for a credit? That sounds unappealing.

Another is the inability to buy admiral funds. Unless that has changed?

Lastly, I’ve read you can’t select specific lots to sell online. You must call customer service and request they sell the lots you have chosen. That would be cumbersome.

I’d likely have fewer issues if we held ETFs, but we don’t. Dinosaurs like me should probably stay put. :D
If the fees are waived for VG mutual funds, they are simply not charged on the transaction. When you review the summary screen of the buy order prior to clicking "submit", you'll see no transaction fee and no fee is charged. No calls or emails necessary, it is entirely transparent. There are no fees to sell VG mutual funds for any Schwab client.

Most admiral funds are available, including VTSAX, VFIAX, VBTLX, VITAX and so on. There are several funds where you have to hold the investor class shares, rather than admiral class shares, but that is the exception. And there are a few funds available at Vanguard that are either not available at Schwab or are only available to existing investors in that fund.

You are correct that if you want to sell specific ID lots, you must contact Schwab to execute the trade. However, they have several lot options you can preselect, such as FIFO, LIFO, high cost lot, low cost lot and tax optimizer. Tax optimizer is often a good default option:
Tax Lot Optimizer™ (TLO): Lots are selected with the objective of taking losses first (short term then long term) and gains last (long term then short term). Any shares moved will be processed using the HCLOT method. Lots with missing cost basis will be selected after lots with known cost basis are selected.
Hope that helps!
I'm not sure the bolder part is correct. I remember playing around on Schwab in preparation of maybe doing tax lost harvesting. Schwab had a Specified Lot option. It looks to my inexperienced eye as the same as spec ID. Or maybe I'm missing something.


Specified lots:
Manually select from a list of eligible lots which lots are sold at the time of trade up until the settlement date. Note that lots established today are not eligible for assignment. Either check All to assign an entire lot to be closed or enter a quantity. The Open Date and Hold Period columns can help you figure out the potential tax ramifications of closing a particular lot.
Is that for mutual funds or ETFs? My understanding is that you cannot do it for mutual funds at Schwab without a phone call or written message.
nalor511
Posts: 5058
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 1:00 am

Re: Leaving Vanguard

Post by nalor511 »

schildkrote wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 5:13 pm I have my Roth and a Brokerage account with VG. The last two times I tried to call Vanguard for a simple customer service action I was on hold for nearly 45 minutes waiting to talk to a representative on top of making my way through a maze of automated menu items, none of which was the reason I was calling. Extremely aggravating to say the least and got me thinking of a potential move in the near future. I have also been considering Schwab as my 401k is already through them and didn't have to wait nearly as long to speak to someone in the past.

However, I am unsure of how some of my Vanguard funds would transfer to Schwab. I am fine not buying anymore of these mutual funds and just leaving them in their admiral share status, but that brings on the questions:

1. Will these mutual funds still even have admiral status with the lower E/R at Schwab or is that a perk you can only have holding them at VG?

2. Are the purchase fees that some people are talking about only applicable to VG mutual funds and not the ETFs?

3. Are there fees to sell VG mutual funds on Schwab?

It almost seems it may be easier to liquidate the VG funds that incur fees and THEN make the transfer.

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. No
User avatar
galawdawg
Posts: 5231
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:59 am
Location: Georgia

Re: Leaving Vanguard

Post by galawdawg »

MishkaWorries wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 4:47 pm
galawdawg wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:20 pm
goingup wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:53 pm I’ve always figured Schwab would be my next broker if we ever left VG. There are a few things I’ve read here that give me pause.

...Lastly, I’ve read you can’t select specific lots to sell online. You must call customer service and request they sell the lots you have chosen.
You are correct that if you want to sell specific ID lots, you must contact Schwab to execute the trade. However, they have several lot options you can preselect, such as FIFO, LIFO, high cost lot, low cost lot and tax optimizer. Tax optimizer is often a good default option:
Tax Lot Optimizer™ (TLO): Lots are selected with the objective of taking losses first (short term then long term) and gains last (long term then short term). Any shares moved will be processed using the HCLOT method. Lots with missing cost basis will be selected after lots with known cost basis are selected.
Hope that helps!
I'm not sure the bolder part is correct. I remember playing around on Schwab in preparation of maybe doing tax lost harvesting. Schwab had a Specified Lot option. It looks to my inexperienced eye as the same as spec ID. Or maybe I'm missing something.


Specified lots:
Manually select from a list of eligible lots which lots are sold at the time of trade up until the settlement date. Note that lots established today are not eligible for assignment. Either check All to assign an entire lot to be closed or enter a quantity. The Open Date and Hold Period columns can help you figure out the potential tax ramifications of closing a particular lot.
I don't see that option in my Schwab account. Also, our advisor told me when I inquired about this some months back that specific lot selection wasn't available as a default option and wouldn't appear as an option when selling shares. He said that if I wanted to sell specific lots, I just needed to let him know and he would handle it with the cost-basis reporting department.

You may also want to look at this FAQ prepared by Schwab for advisors that discusses Cost Basis methods in paragraphs 7 and 8. http://www.schwabadvisorcenter.com/cms/ ... ersion.pdf

From that document:
Specified Lot Selection: Allows you to assign specific lots to be sold at the time of trade up until settlement
date. Specified Lot is not a default cost basis method—when you want to use it for a trade, please contact
the Cost Basis Reporting Team at 877-762-6446.

and
If you wish to assign a specific lot (versus purchase) to a particular trade, you may do so at the time of
trade or before the trade settles.
I'm sure your Schwab advisor would be happy to clarify or confirm this... :happy
User avatar
galawdawg
Posts: 5231
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:59 am
Location: Georgia

Re: Leaving Vanguard

Post by galawdawg »

schildkrote wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 5:13 pm I have my Roth and a Brokerage account with VG. The last two times I tried to call Vanguard for a simple customer service action I was on hold for nearly 45 minutes waiting to talk to a representative on top of making my way through a maze of automated menu items, none of which was the reason I was calling. Extremely aggravating to say the least and got me thinking of a potential move in the near future. I have also been considering Schwab as my 401k is already through them and didn't have to wait nearly as long to speak to someone in the past.

However, I am unsure of how some of my Vanguard funds would transfer to Schwab. I am fine not buying anymore of these mutual funds and just leaving them in their admiral share status, but that brings on the questions:

1. Will these mutual funds still even have admiral status with the lower E/R at Schwab or is that a perk you can only have holding them at VG?

2. Are the purchase fees that some people are talking about only applicable to VG mutual funds and not the ETFs?

3. Are there fees to sell VG mutual funds on Schwab?

It almost seems it may be easier to liquidate the VG funds that incur fees and THEN make the transfer.
NO! Don't do that! You don't want to have any tax liability on your brokerage account nor time out of the market on your Roth. :happy

As nalor511 responded, the Schwab transaction fees ONLY apply to the PURCHASE of Vanguard mutual funds. The transaction fees do not apply to any sale of Vanguard mutual funds nor to any purchase or sale of their ETF's.

Why not reach out to a Schwab advisor and ask if they would waive your transaction fees on Vanguard mutual funds if you move your portfolio to Schwab? It doesn't hurt to ask and if you qualify, you'll be able to make purchases of Vanguard mutual funds at no cost. Another option if you don't mind holding ETFs is to have Vanguard convert your mutual funds to ETFs (if they have an equivalent ETF) BEFORE you transfer in-kind to Schwab. But if you are like me and prefer the mutual funds, just call Schwab and ask for a fee waiver. Don't forget to ask about a transfer bonus as well!
Makefile
Posts: 2657
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2016 11:03 pm

Re: Leaving Vanguard

Post by Makefile »

schildkrote wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 5:13 pm I have my Roth and a Brokerage account with VG. The last two times I tried to call Vanguard for a simple customer service action I was on hold for nearly 45 minutes waiting to talk to a representative on top of making my way through a maze of automated menu items, none of which was the reason I was calling. Extremely aggravating to say the least and got me thinking of a potential move in the near future. I have also been considering Schwab as my 401k is already through them and didn't have to wait nearly as long to speak to someone in the past.
I would also consider E*TRADE as most Vanguard mutual funds are no-fee there (on their list of favored funds).

This commercial is amusing to me compared to today's customer service: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwlNUpFCHTE. I guess, with 1980s-era long distance rates they were paying for their 800 numbers (30, 40, 50 cents/minute?) they had an incentive to keep things moving back then as the phone company was potentially earning more/hr for the calls than the customer service people.
MishkaWorries
Posts: 1362
Joined: Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:39 pm

Re: Leaving Vanguard

Post by MishkaWorries »

lazynovice wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 5:14 pm
MishkaWorries wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 4:47 pm
galawdawg wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:20 pm
goingup wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:53 pm I’ve always figured Schwab would be my next broker if we ever left VG. There are a few things I’ve read here that give me pause.

One is the buying fees for VG mutual funds. I see that people say they can be waived . What does that look like in practice? Do you have to call or email after every purchase and ask for a credit? That sounds unappealing.

Another is the inability to buy admiral funds. Unless that has changed?

Lastly, I’ve read you can’t select specific lots to sell online. You must call customer service and request they sell the lots you have chosen. That would be cumbersome.

I’d likely have fewer issues if we held ETFs, but we don’t. Dinosaurs like me should probably stay put. :D
If the fees are waived for VG mutual funds, they are simply not charged on the transaction. When you review the summary screen of the buy order prior to clicking "submit", you'll see no transaction fee and no fee is charged. No calls or emails necessary, it is entirely transparent. There are no fees to sell VG mutual funds for any Schwab client.

Most admiral funds are available, including VTSAX, VFIAX, VBTLX, VITAX and so on. There are several funds where you have to hold the investor class shares, rather than admiral class shares, but that is the exception. And there are a few funds available at Vanguard that are either not available at Schwab or are only available to existing investors in that fund.

You are correct that if you want to sell specific ID lots, you must contact Schwab to execute the trade. However, they have several lot options you can preselect, such as FIFO, LIFO, high cost lot, low cost lot and tax optimizer. Tax optimizer is often a good default option:
Tax Lot Optimizer™ (TLO): Lots are selected with the objective of taking losses first (short term then long term) and gains last (long term then short term). Any shares moved will be processed using the HCLOT method. Lots with missing cost basis will be selected after lots with known cost basis are selected.
Hope that helps!
I'm not sure the bolder part is correct. I remember playing around on Schwab in preparation of maybe doing tax lost harvesting. Schwab had a Specified Lot option. It looks to my inexperienced eye as the same as spec ID. Or maybe I'm missing something.


Specified lots:
Manually select from a list of eligible lots which lots are sold at the time of trade up until the settlement date. Note that lots established today are not eligible for assignment. Either check All to assign an entire lot to be closed or enter a quantity. The Open Date and Hold Period columns can help you figure out the potential tax ramifications of closing a particular lot.
Is that for mutual funds or ETFs? My understanding is that you cannot do it for mutual funds at Schwab without a phone call or written message.
Ah that must be the difference. I've looked at ETFs. I've never sold any of my mutual funds at Schwab.
We plan. G-d laughs.
lazynovice
Posts: 3369
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:48 pm
Location: Denver area. Former Texan.

Re: Leaving Vanguard

Post by lazynovice »

MishkaWorries wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 6:39 pm
lazynovice wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 5:14 pm
MishkaWorries wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 4:47 pm
galawdawg wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:20 pm
goingup wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:53 pm I’ve always figured Schwab would be my next broker if we ever left VG. There are a few things I’ve read here that give me pause.

One is the buying fees for VG mutual funds. I see that people say they can be waived . What does that look like in practice? Do you have to call or email after every purchase and ask for a credit? That sounds unappealing.

Another is the inability to buy admiral funds. Unless that has changed?

Lastly, I’ve read you can’t select specific lots to sell online. You must call customer service and request they sell the lots you have chosen. That would be cumbersome.

I’d likely have fewer issues if we held ETFs, but we don’t. Dinosaurs like me should probably stay put. :D
If the fees are waived for VG mutual funds, they are simply not charged on the transaction. When you review the summary screen of the buy order prior to clicking "submit", you'll see no transaction fee and no fee is charged. No calls or emails necessary, it is entirely transparent. There are no fees to sell VG mutual funds for any Schwab client.

Most admiral funds are available, including VTSAX, VFIAX, VBTLX, VITAX and so on. There are several funds where you have to hold the investor class shares, rather than admiral class shares, but that is the exception. And there are a few funds available at Vanguard that are either not available at Schwab or are only available to existing investors in that fund.

You are correct that if you want to sell specific ID lots, you must contact Schwab to execute the trade. However, they have several lot options you can preselect, such as FIFO, LIFO, high cost lot, low cost lot and tax optimizer. Tax optimizer is often a good default option:
Tax Lot Optimizer™ (TLO): Lots are selected with the objective of taking losses first (short term then long term) and gains last (long term then short term). Any shares moved will be processed using the HCLOT method. Lots with missing cost basis will be selected after lots with known cost basis are selected.
Hope that helps!
I'm not sure the bolder part is correct. I remember playing around on Schwab in preparation of maybe doing tax lost harvesting. Schwab had a Specified Lot option. It looks to my inexperienced eye as the same as spec ID. Or maybe I'm missing something.


Specified lots:
Manually select from a list of eligible lots which lots are sold at the time of trade up until the settlement date. Note that lots established today are not eligible for assignment. Either check All to assign an entire lot to be closed or enter a quantity. The Open Date and Hold Period columns can help you figure out the potential tax ramifications of closing a particular lot.
Is that for mutual funds or ETFs? My understanding is that you cannot do it for mutual funds at Schwab without a phone call or written message.
Ah that must be the difference. I've looked at ETFs. I've never sold any of my mutual funds at Schwab.
No worries. I want to be accurate in what I tell people, so I double check. I would have deleted if you could confirm I was wrong.
MishkaWorries
Posts: 1362
Joined: Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:39 pm

Re: Leaving Vanguard

Post by MishkaWorries »

galawdawg wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 5:21 pm
MishkaWorries wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 4:47 pm
galawdawg wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:20 pm
goingup wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:53 pm I’ve always figured Schwab would be my next broker if we ever left VG. There are a few things I’ve read here that give me pause.

...Lastly, I’ve read you can’t select specific lots to sell online. You must call customer service and request they sell the lots you have chosen.
You are correct that if you want to sell specific ID lots, you must contact Schwab to execute the trade. However, they have several lot options you can preselect, such as FIFO, LIFO, high cost lot, low cost lot and tax optimizer. Tax optimizer is often a good default option:
Tax Lot Optimizer™ (TLO): Lots are selected with the objective of taking losses first (short term then long term) and gains last (long term then short term). Any shares moved will be processed using the HCLOT method. Lots with missing cost basis will be selected after lots with known cost basis are selected.
Hope that helps!
I'm not sure the bolder part is correct. I remember playing around on Schwab in preparation of maybe doing tax lost harvesting. Schwab had a Specified Lot option. It looks to my inexperienced eye as the same as spec ID. Or maybe I'm missing something.


Specified lots:
Manually select from a list of eligible lots which lots are sold at the time of trade up until the settlement date. Note that lots established today are not eligible for assignment. Either check All to assign an entire lot to be closed or enter a quantity. The Open Date and Hold Period columns can help you figure out the potential tax ramifications of closing a particular lot.
I don't see that option in my Schwab account. Also, our advisor told me when I inquired about this some months back that specific lot selection wasn't available as a default option and wouldn't appear as an option when selling shares. He said that if I wanted to sell specific lots, I just needed to let him know and he would handle it with the cost-basis reporting department.

You may also want to look at this FAQ prepared by Schwab for advisors that discusses Cost Basis methods in paragraphs 7 and 8. http://www.schwabadvisorcenter.com/cms/ ... ersion.pdf

From that document:
Specified Lot Selection: Allows you to assign specific lots to be sold at the time of trade up until settlement
date. Specified Lot is not a default cost basis method—when you want to use it for a trade, please contact
the Cost Basis Reporting Team at 877-762-6446.

and
If you wish to assign a specific lot (versus purchase) to a particular trade, you may do so at the time of
trade or before the trade settles.
I'm sure your Schwab advisor would be happy to clarify or confirm this... :happy
It appears the difference is between ETFs and mutual funds. I was looking at selling ETFs and it was an option offered for cost basis. Lazynovice says mutual funds are different.
We plan. G-d laughs.
Malinois000
Posts: 183
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:08 pm

Re: Leaving Vanguard

Post by Malinois000 »

I have both taxable and not taxable accounts in both Schwab and Vanguard. In my view, Schwab is far superior. Also, I have an assigned rep (as you mentioned) at the local office if I need some help and he is very responsive and there is no charge as I do my own investing.
User avatar
mangorunner
Posts: 157
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:24 pm

Re: Leaving Vanguard

Post by mangorunner »

lazynovice wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:04 pm
mangorunner wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 6:49 pm
greenway23 wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:17 pm I really wanted to use Schwab because I think they have the best website and banking combination, but there were a couple deal-breakers:
(1) its index mutual funds distribute some capital gains (and I don't want to use ETFs or pay commissions to buy Vanguard MFs); and
(2) no total international index mutual fund.
What is your opposition to ETFs? Not being snarky; I'm very, very new to investing and interested to learn. Thank you in advance for your advice.
It is a personal preference. There are a multitude of threads discussing it each week. Here is the link to the wiki page on it

https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/ETFs_vs_mutual_funds
Thank you for the link. Interestingly, I already had it open on another tab!
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