+1.
When would you buy cryptocurrency?
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Re: When would you buy cryptocurrency?
TheLaughingCow wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 2:55 am For those who own no crypto. Under what conditions would you consider exchanging some USD for crypto?
Edit: This is a thought experiment. The point is to challenge Bogleheads' existing beliefs. At one point bonds were considered a safe investment and common stocks were regarded as excessively risky. Yet today the family who held stocks for the last 100 years is substantially richer than the family which held bonds. I do not want to be so attached to dogma that I miss fundamental shifts in the way the world works.
There is a point at which everyone would hold crypto, Boglehead or not. For example if your salary were paid in crypto, and the dollar was worthless, you would have no choice. I am asking, at what point would you decide there is some merit to holding some crypto "just in case" it really is the next big thing?
1) If the Dollar and other currencies were more unstable than Crypto. I would exchange some of my USD to Crypto.
2) If there was some application unique to Crypto space that I cannot access otherwise, I might buy some Crypto.
3) For the Lulz
Re: When would you buy cryptocurrency?
Agree with Bogledogle
Used 500$ on Robinhood last weekend to Lulz. Made a quick 100$ on a couple of Doggiecoin trades. No casinos nearby.
Until bitcoin or other cryptos become more stable it all feels highly speculative . Certainly not a stable value at present.
Used 500$ on Robinhood last weekend to Lulz. Made a quick 100$ on a couple of Doggiecoin trades. No casinos nearby.
Until bitcoin or other cryptos become more stable it all feels highly speculative . Certainly not a stable value at present.
Everthing works out in the end. If it doesn't then its not the end.
Re: When would you buy cryptocurrency?
My biggest concern with crypto is that there's massive potential for market manipulation.
Imagine if the stock exchanges and regulators didn't aggressively monitor wash trades, pump-and-dump schemes, churning, painting the tape, and insider trading. Of course fraud would be rampant.
The anonymity of accounts, the global diffusion of ownership, the artificial scarcity of supply, the total lack of regulatory oversight, and the paucity of trustworthy exchanges makes cryptocurrencies the ripest opportunity for market manipulation since the 1800s.
40% of bitcoin are held by less than 1,000 accounts (and who knows how far fewer actual individuals). What's preventing a few of them to coordinate trading? Push prices up by trading amongst yourselves, generate buzz so new entrants buy with real currency, sell some coins from other untraceable accounts, let it crash -- but not all the way -- rinse, repeat.
Even borrowing terms from finance is ludicrous and masks how amateur hour these "markets" are. Look at Quadringa, where a guy track of over $1 billion worth of trading on a spreadsheet on a laptop only he could access. All deposits disappeared when he suddenly died (though people speculate he faked his death).
I'm reminded of a story of the South Seas bubble, where a founder of a joint-stock company offered investors the chance to invest in a top secret project, raising capital but disclosing nothing about what it was for. Investors clamored for access and gave him a lot of money, which he promptly took and was never heard from again.
With cryptocurrency, the emperor's clothes are on full display.
Imagine if the stock exchanges and regulators didn't aggressively monitor wash trades, pump-and-dump schemes, churning, painting the tape, and insider trading. Of course fraud would be rampant.
The anonymity of accounts, the global diffusion of ownership, the artificial scarcity of supply, the total lack of regulatory oversight, and the paucity of trustworthy exchanges makes cryptocurrencies the ripest opportunity for market manipulation since the 1800s.
40% of bitcoin are held by less than 1,000 accounts (and who knows how far fewer actual individuals). What's preventing a few of them to coordinate trading? Push prices up by trading amongst yourselves, generate buzz so new entrants buy with real currency, sell some coins from other untraceable accounts, let it crash -- but not all the way -- rinse, repeat.
Even borrowing terms from finance is ludicrous and masks how amateur hour these "markets" are. Look at Quadringa, where a guy track of over $1 billion worth of trading on a spreadsheet on a laptop only he could access. All deposits disappeared when he suddenly died (though people speculate he faked his death).
I'm reminded of a story of the South Seas bubble, where a founder of a joint-stock company offered investors the chance to invest in a top secret project, raising capital but disclosing nothing about what it was for. Investors clamored for access and gave him a lot of money, which he promptly took and was never heard from again.
With cryptocurrency, the emperor's clothes are on full display.
Re: When would you buy cryptocurrency?
I don't think there is *potential* for market manipulation -- I think it's overt and blatantly happening.TigerNest wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 1:03 pm My biggest concern with crypto is that there's massive potential for market manipulation.
Imagine if the stock exchanges and regulators didn't aggressively monitor wash trades, pump-and-dump schemes, churning, painting the tape, and insider trading. Of course fraud would be rampant.
The anonymity of accounts, the global diffusion of ownership, the artificial scarcity of supply, the total lack of regulatory oversight, and the paucity of trustworthy exchanges makes cryptocurrencies the ripest opportunity for market manipulation since the 1800s.
40% of bitcoin are held by less than 1,000 accounts (and who knows how far fewer actual individuals). What's preventing a few of them to coordinate trading? Push prices up by trading amongst yourselves, generate buzz so new entrants buy with real currency, sell some coins from other untraceable accounts, let it crash -- but not all the way -- rinse, repeat.
Even borrowing terms from finance is ludicrous and masks how amateur hour these "markets" are. Look at Quadringa, where a guy track of over $1 billion worth of trading on a spreadsheet on a laptop only he could access. All deposits disappeared when he suddenly died (though people speculate he faked his death).
I'm reminded of a story of the South Seas bubble, where a founder of a joint-stock company offered investors the chance to invest in a top secret project, raising capital but disclosing nothing about what it was for. Investors clamored for access and gave him a lot of money, which he promptly took and was never heard from again.
With cryptocurrency, the emperor's clothes are on full display.
And, yes, I feel like I'm LARPing the stock market from a bygone era of capitalism.
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Re: When would you buy cryptocurrency?
Is this investment opportunity still available ? I would like to get in.watchnerd wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 1:17 pmI don't think there is *potential* for market manipulation -- I think it's overt and blatantly happening.TigerNest wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 1:03 pm My biggest concern with crypto is that there's massive potential for market manipulation.
Imagine if the stock exchanges and regulators didn't aggressively monitor wash trades, pump-and-dump schemes, churning, painting the tape, and insider trading. Of course fraud would be rampant.
The anonymity of accounts, the global diffusion of ownership, the artificial scarcity of supply, the total lack of regulatory oversight, and the paucity of trustworthy exchanges makes cryptocurrencies the ripest opportunity for market manipulation since the 1800s.
40% of bitcoin are held by less than 1,000 accounts (and who knows how far fewer actual individuals). What's preventing a few of them to coordinate trading? Push prices up by trading amongst yourselves, generate buzz so new entrants buy with real currency, sell some coins from other untraceable accounts, let it crash -- but not all the way -- rinse, repeat.
Even borrowing terms from finance is ludicrous and masks how amateur hour these "markets" are. Look at Quadringa, where a guy track of over $1 billion worth of trading on a spreadsheet on a laptop only he could access. All deposits disappeared when he suddenly died (though people speculate he faked his death).
I'm reminded of a story of the South Seas bubble, where a founder of a joint-stock company offered investors the chance to invest in a top secret project, raising capital but disclosing nothing about what it was for. Investors clamored for access and gave him a lot of money, which he promptly took and was never heard from again.
With cryptocurrency, the emperor's clothes are on full display.
And, yes, I feel like I'm LARPing the stock market from a bygone era of capitalism.
I’d trade it all for a little more |
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Re: When would you buy cryptocurrency?
+ 2.Wiggums wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 6:14 am+1JoeRetire wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 5:08 amRight after I cash in a winning lottery ticket.TheLaughingCow wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 2:55 am For those who own no crypto. Under what conditions would you consider exchanging some USD for crypto?
(hint: I don't buy lottery tickets)
Same answer
I have never bought a lottery ticket.
"Everything should be as simple as it is, but not simpler." - Albert Einstein |
Wiki article link: Bogleheads® investment philosophy
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Re: When would you buy cryptocurrency?
There is a new show on Netflix "money explained" that popped up on my recommendations the other day. They have an episode on casinos and human behavior - it was interesting and of course Robinhood an Crypto made an appearance on it. I needed a reminder how much money gets spent on gambling - no wonder stocks soared during covid with all that cash flow.Blister wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 12:10 pm Agree with Bogledogle
Used 500$ on Robinhood last weekend to Lulz. Made a quick 100$ on a couple of Doggiecoin trades. No casinos nearby.
Until bitcoin or other cryptos become more stable it all feels highly speculative . Certainly not a stable value at present.
I wanted to wager on DOGE and see how I would do on Robinhood. I was going to sell my one free ZYNGA stock and go all in, but I forgot my password and the lost interest while trying to reset it and looking up fees. I could not figure out what fees to trade crypto on RH - its says trading is free but something about order flow and not getting expected prices. How does that work?
- unclescrooge
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Re: When would you buy cryptocurrency?
Since I don't invest in currencies, the only time I would buy them is if I needed them to make a purchase for something.
Since most legitimate good and services can be purchased using the US dollar, I must assume it is either the purchase of something illegal, or the US government has completely collapsed.
Since I don't buy illegal stuff, the answer must therefore be to buy cryptos when the US government collapses.
Since most legitimate good and services can be purchased using the US dollar, I must assume it is either the purchase of something illegal, or the US government has completely collapsed.
Since I don't buy illegal stuff, the answer must therefore be to buy cryptos when the US government collapses.
Re: When would you buy cryptocurrency?
Cypto is an ideology and middle finger to boomers so of course this place is targeted. Look how successful they already are at grabbing the "market weight" ones here.fortunefavored wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 8:03 am I've no idea why crypto pumpers have invaded a forum like Bogleheads, hopefully it can get shut down and relegated to a single thread soon.
I will never buy until they deliver on their original promise of buying a pizza.
Re: When would you buy cryptocurrency?
And yet there aren't daily threads about hedgefundie. There are no thought experiment threads like the OP asking what it would take for you to buy into hedgefundie.
Re: When would you buy cryptocurrency?
I purchased a bunch in February, and while it is up ~20%, it still represents less than 2% of my investible assets. I purchased the ~40k worth of crypto specifically bc I didn't want to have regrets if in the future it is worth a lot.
I don't think I'd ever regret losing 2% of assets if it's a once in a lifetime gamble, ie if crypto went to 0, which I doubt it will but I'd be ok with.
I don't think I'd ever regret losing 2% of assets if it's a once in a lifetime gamble, ie if crypto went to 0, which I doubt it will but I'd be ok with.
Never look back unless you are planning to go that way
Re: When would you buy cryptocurrency?
Probably never but...
I believe in the Bogleheads' Investment Philosophy -- https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Boglehe ... philosophy
These are it's tenets...
1 Develop a workable plan
2 Invest early and often
3 Never bear too much or too little risk
4 Diversify
5 Never try to time the market
6 Use index funds when possible
7 Keep costs low
8 Minimize taxes
9 Invest with simplicity
10 Stay the course
Crypto does not suit my portfolio because I never bear too much or too little risk. Crypto is more risky than stock and bond index funds and I don't need to take on any more risk that I have with my current portfolio.
Crypto does not suit my portfolio because I never try to time the market. Crypto is on a run and it is the en vogue thing right now. If I buy in right now then I would be market timing.
Crypto does not suit my portfolio because I use index funds when possible. Crypto is not an index fund.
Crypto does not suit my portfolio because I seek to minimize taxes. Crypto will be taxed at regular capital gains no matter how long I hold it and I can't hold it in tax deferred accounts.
Crypto does not suit my portfolio because I seek to invest with simplicity. Crypto is far from simple to buy, hold and sell. If I die and my spouse needs to access our account can she do so? How about our beneficiaries if we both die?
Crypto does not suit my portfolio because I have resolved to stay the course. This plan has gotten us nearly to the FI finish line. Why deviate now?
You asked so there are your answers. An investment in Crypto violates 6 of the 10 Boglehead tenets so I likely won't be investing in Crypto.
If it can be demonstrated that Crypto is in line with the Bogleheads' Philosophy then I would consider investing.
I believe in the Bogleheads' Investment Philosophy -- https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Boglehe ... philosophy
These are it's tenets...
1 Develop a workable plan
2 Invest early and often
3 Never bear too much or too little risk
4 Diversify
5 Never try to time the market
6 Use index funds when possible
7 Keep costs low
8 Minimize taxes
9 Invest with simplicity
10 Stay the course
Crypto does not suit my portfolio because I never bear too much or too little risk. Crypto is more risky than stock and bond index funds and I don't need to take on any more risk that I have with my current portfolio.
Crypto does not suit my portfolio because I never try to time the market. Crypto is on a run and it is the en vogue thing right now. If I buy in right now then I would be market timing.
Crypto does not suit my portfolio because I use index funds when possible. Crypto is not an index fund.
Crypto does not suit my portfolio because I seek to minimize taxes. Crypto will be taxed at regular capital gains no matter how long I hold it and I can't hold it in tax deferred accounts.
Crypto does not suit my portfolio because I seek to invest with simplicity. Crypto is far from simple to buy, hold and sell. If I die and my spouse needs to access our account can she do so? How about our beneficiaries if we both die?
Crypto does not suit my portfolio because I have resolved to stay the course. This plan has gotten us nearly to the FI finish line. Why deviate now?
You asked so there are your answers. An investment in Crypto violates 6 of the 10 Boglehead tenets so I likely won't be investing in Crypto.
If it can be demonstrated that Crypto is in line with the Bogleheads' Philosophy then I would consider investing.
Re: When would you buy cryptocurrency?
Laughing Cow,
First, I must say your cheese is delightful. I prefer the spicy variety but sometimes opt for the light Swiss. Second, you have woken the herd from their restless sleep with your tantalizing question. They were dreaming of their Ibonds and hoping they could write on this forum how much they treasure those bonds they purchased in 2001 and loving that 3% return; if they could only buy more! In all seriousness, I love the concept of crypo currency but the risk and fees keep me from the exchange. I think I would buy crypto if there wasn’t a fee for every transaction type. I probably won’t be able to resist the itch when the ETF is approved. Right now, there doesn’t seem to be a practicality to crypto except for speculation and dreams of ditching those Ibonds for billionaire status.
First, I must say your cheese is delightful. I prefer the spicy variety but sometimes opt for the light Swiss. Second, you have woken the herd from their restless sleep with your tantalizing question. They were dreaming of their Ibonds and hoping they could write on this forum how much they treasure those bonds they purchased in 2001 and loving that 3% return; if they could only buy more! In all seriousness, I love the concept of crypo currency but the risk and fees keep me from the exchange. I think I would buy crypto if there wasn’t a fee for every transaction type. I probably won’t be able to resist the itch when the ETF is approved. Right now, there doesn’t seem to be a practicality to crypto except for speculation and dreams of ditching those Ibonds for billionaire status.
Admirer of the great John Bogle
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Re: When would you buy cryptocurrency?
sid hartha wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 6:39 am When it's part of a Vanguard Total Market ETF or Target date fund.
that was my thought. when crypto or a crypto related company makes a vanguard index fund. unless they sell crypto watches or crypto pendant since I do own gold but only in jewelry fashion. Oh and I think we own silver in the form of some earring my wife owns.
Re: When would you buy cryptocurrency?
When I need to use it for transactions.
When it starts paying me a reasonable amount of interests or dividends for holding it.
When it starts paying me a reasonable amount of interests or dividends for holding it.
The sillier the market’s behavior, the greater the opportunity for the business like investor.
Re: When would you buy cryptocurrency?
There are several companies that have forayed in the crypto actually. Tesla for one. Maybe that doesn't represent the appropriate "market cap" though. I, for one, have not taken the plunge into crypto yet....but am considering it. Many financial institutions (BNY Mellon, Chase, Visa, Mastercard) are seemingly going to be involved in crypto in some capacity even if they don't own it outright. So, you could argue that it's already part of a Vanguard Index Fund, but indirectly and in a very very small percentage.helloeveryone wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 3:36 pmsid hartha wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 6:39 am When it's part of a Vanguard Total Market ETF or Target date fund.
that was my thought. when crypto or a crypto related company makes a vanguard index fund. unless they sell crypto watches or crypto pendant since I do own gold but only in jewelry fashion. Oh and I think we own silver in the form of some earring my wife owns.
Re: When would you buy cryptocurrency?
Tesla is in the index.helloeveryone wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 3:36 pmsid hartha wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 6:39 am When it's part of a Vanguard Total Market ETF or Target date fund.
that was my thought. when crypto or a crypto related company makes a vanguard index fund. unless they sell crypto watches or crypto pendant since I do own gold but only in jewelry fashion. Oh and I think we own silver in the form of some earring my wife owns.
They're accepting payment in crypto and, I gather, hold some on their books.
Global stocks, IG/HY bonds, gold & digital assets at market weights 75% / 19% / 6% || LMP: TIPS ladder
Re: When would you buy cryptocurrency?
Why would I buy something that I don't see any value in it?TheLaughingCow wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 2:55 am For those who own no crypto. Under what conditions would you consider exchanging some USD for crypto?
Edit: This is a thought experiment. The point is to challenge Bogleheads' existing beliefs. At one point bonds were considered a safe investment and common stocks were regarded as excessively risky. Yet today the family who held stocks for the last 100 years is substantially richer than the family which held bonds. I do not want to be so attached to dogma that I miss fundamental shifts in the way the world works.
There is a point at which everyone would hold crypto, Boglehead or not. For example if your salary were paid in crypto, and the dollar was worthless, you would have no choice. I am asking, at what point would you decide there is some merit to holding some crypto "just in case" it really is the next big thing?
If you're going to answer "never", please just don't respond. This post is for people who don't own crypto, who can genuinely imagine a situation where they might need to get some. Saying you would rather starve to death than swap to a new economic system and use crypto is disingenuous and goes against the spirit of the question.
The government will come out and issue its own digital currency. Do you think the government will accept 1:1 exchange for bitcoin, dogecoin, etherium, etc.? No. They will have an exchange ratio for US dollar. Of course, then I will exchange my U.S. dollars with government-backed digital currency. It may be even easier to use and transact.
Imagine if you hold a bag of bitcoin, dogecoin, etc. when the government rolls out their version of digital currency.
Time is the ultimate currency.
Re: When would you buy cryptocurrency?
Already happened.helloeveryone wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 3:36 pmsid hartha wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 6:39 am When it's part of a Vanguard Total Market ETF or Target date fund.
that was my thought. when crypto or a crypto related company makes a vanguard index fund. unless they sell crypto watches or crypto pendant since I do own gold but only in jewelry fashion. Oh and I think we own silver in the form of some earring my wife owns.
https://bitcointreasuries.org/
not financial advice
Re: When would you buy cryptocurrency?
Stable coins (coins pegged to the USD) already exist and co-exist alongside Bitcoin, Ethereum, Doge, etc.
Also, Fedcoin, Eurocoin, or Chinacoin may not be very interesting to people who don't live in those countries.
Last edited by watchnerd on Wed May 12, 2021 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Global stocks, IG/HY bonds, gold & digital assets at market weights 75% / 19% / 6% || LMP: TIPS ladder
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Re: When would you buy cryptocurrency?
Re: When would you buy cryptocurrency?
No, just keys that are portable allowing the bearer to carry millions around on their person.bogledogle wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 4:31 pm
Are pegged coins insured out the crypto ecosystem? Do they come with an army backing them with drones and bunker busters
And also lose the keys.
There is no insurance whatsoever or any other consumer protections.
Global stocks, IG/HY bonds, gold & digital assets at market weights 75% / 19% / 6% || LMP: TIPS ladder
Re: When would you buy cryptocurrency?
Whenever someone can explain to me why it has any real value.
Re: When would you buy cryptocurrency?
Which 'it'?
There are many different crypto assets with different value propositions.
Global stocks, IG/HY bonds, gold & digital assets at market weights 75% / 19% / 6% || LMP: TIPS ladder
Re: When would you buy cryptocurrency?
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Last edited by Zeno on Sun May 16, 2021 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: When would you buy cryptocurrency?
Maybe next lifetime. I'm tied up with companies that have a product they manufacture, distribute, sell or a service they offer and sell in this lifetime.
I don't see companies accepting payment in something whose value tomorrow morning isn't known.
I don't see companies accepting payment in something whose value tomorrow morning isn't known.
Last edited by midareff on Wed May 12, 2021 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: When would you buy cryptocurrency?
You can buy a Tesla with Bitcoin.WyomingFIRE wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 4:45 pm Q: When?
A: Never
Why: I don't understand it in the same way that I understand paper towels, potato chips and underwear, and my brain cells have deteriorated to the point where I now lack the IQ to try to understand it
Your rich uncle overseas can transfer this Bitcoin to you in a way that completely bypasses normal banks and saves you wire fees.
And it happens very quickly, instead of taking days like a normal ACH or traditional transfer takes.
Global stocks, IG/HY bonds, gold & digital assets at market weights 75% / 19% / 6% || LMP: TIPS ladder
Re: When would you buy cryptocurrency?
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Last edited by Zeno on Sun May 16, 2021 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: When would you buy cryptocurrency?
Yes, a recent study showed the interest in crypto over the age of 55 is very low.WyomingFIRE wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 4:53 pm I'm old and FI, and see no need to do those things.
I'm happy with my 2009 Toyota Tacoma; with luck, I can get another 200K miles out of it and never have to buy another car again.
I'm happy to let the youngsters figure the new stuff out.
At 51, I'm borderline.
But I'm enjoying the experiment of putting money into it to force me to understand it better.
It helps me keep up with my nephews.
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Re: When would you buy cryptocurrency?
Probably when crypto is able to hold an ETF. I could see some value in holding something like VTI outside a brokerage (just as some people hang onto paper I Bonds in a safe at home for example). To me this is the interesting thing about crypto; the ability to own assets in a decentralized fashion. I get the sense we are probably close to that point (and idk maybe some of the crypto enthusiast on this thread could make that happen), but am not engaged enough in the space to know exactly how close that might be
"Anyone who claims to understand quantum theory is either lying or crazy" -- Richard Feynman
Re: When would you buy cryptocurrency?
There has been discussion about using NFTs to create bonds.tomsense76 wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 5:09 pm Probably when crypto is able to hold an ETF. I could see some value in holding something like VTI outside a brokerage (just as some people hang onto paper I Bonds in a safe at home for example). To me this is the interesting thing about crypto; the ability to own assets in a decentralized fashion. I get the sense we are probably close to that point (and idk maybe some of the crypto enthusiast on this thread could make that happen), but am not engaged enough in the space to know exactly how close that might be
Global stocks, IG/HY bonds, gold & digital assets at market weights 75% / 19% / 6% || LMP: TIPS ladder
Re: When would you buy cryptocurrency?
I will buy when Vanguard has these ETFs - Crypto 500 (Includes the top 500 Crypto currencies), Total Crypto (Includes ALL the Crypto currencies) and International Crypto (Focused entirely on crypto currencies popular outside of USA). I will then arrive on my Crypto allocation strategy based on age and risk tolerance.
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Re: When would you buy cryptocurrency?
I will buy crytpo when I start buying individual stocks (aka never) or when it becomes a required and necessary currency because of the market (not likely anytime soon). It is already in the total market index I own but so are some other things I'm not all that keen on.
Re: When would you buy cryptocurrency?
I’m waiting to invest in VTHDI.
(Vanguard Triple Hedged Dogecoin Institutional)
(Vanguard Triple Hedged Dogecoin Institutional)
Remember when you wanted what you currently have?
- retired@50
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Re: When would you buy cryptocurrency?
If liberty means anything at all it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear. -George Orwell
Re: When would you buy cryptocurrency?
It makes me feel queasy to even think about it.
Re: When would you buy cryptocurrency?
Hilarious.retired@50 wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 6:10 pmNot anymore.
Source: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bitcoin- ... 39231.html
Regards,
I don't know what Tesla is going to do now with all the BTC on their balance sheet.
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Re: When would you buy cryptocurrency?
Maybe they already sold BTC before making the announcement.watchnerd wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 6:11 pmHilarious.retired@50 wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 6:10 pmNot anymore.
Source: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bitcoin- ... 39231.html
Regards,
I don't know what Tesla is going to do now with all the BTC on their balance sheet.
Re: When would you buy cryptocurrency?
The question I now have is:retired@50 wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 6:10 pmNot anymore.
Source: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bitcoin- ... 39231.html
Regards,
What's Elon up to?
It's not to promote Doge (it's POW, also).
Maybe the Doge-father bit convinced him he can start his own coin, that meets his stated criteria.
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Re: When would you buy cryptocurrency?
I will consider it when there is an ETF.
Re: When would you buy cryptocurrency?
"Tesla will not be selling any Bitcoin"Marseille07 wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 6:15 pmMaybe they already sold BTC before making the announcement.watchnerd wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 6:11 pmHilarious.retired@50 wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 6:10 pmNot anymore.
Source: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bitcoin- ... 39231.html
Regards,
I don't know what Tesla is going to do now with all the BTC on their balance sheet.
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/139 ... 43203?s=21
not financial advice
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Re: When would you buy cryptocurrency?
I missed that, thank you.chinchin wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 7:03 pm"Tesla will not be selling any Bitcoin"Marseille07 wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 6:15 pmMaybe they already sold BTC before making the announcement.watchnerd wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 6:11 pmHilarious.retired@50 wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 6:10 pmNot anymore.
Source: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bitcoin- ... 39231.html
Regards,
I don't know what Tesla is going to do now with all the BTC on their balance sheet.
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/139 ... 43203?s=21
Re: When would you buy cryptocurrency?
From the Twitter feed:chinchin wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 7:03 pm
"Tesla will not be selling any Bitcoin"
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/139 ... 43203?s=21
Why would you tweet this!!! bitcoin has now gone down and i have lost $104,000! i put my life savings into it thinking it would make me rich... crypto is a scam, im never buying bitcoin or anything again. THANKS ELON!
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Re: When would you buy cryptocurrency?
As soon as someone convinces me that a cryptocoin has any inherent value and that it can rationally be expected to appreciate in the very long-term.
The very best-case scenario I can imagine for these cryptos is that they act sort of like gold (and I'm not about to "invest" in gold either).
If you are planning to hold cryptos for the short-term, then you are trying to time the market, and I think bogleheads understand why that is bad. If you are planning on holding for the long-term, why do expect a non-productive asset to continue to appreciate indefinitely? Why not just put that money in equities? It seems like people are just performance chasing, and giving in to the FOMO.
The very best-case scenario I can imagine for these cryptos is that they act sort of like gold (and I'm not about to "invest" in gold either).
If you are planning to hold cryptos for the short-term, then you are trying to time the market, and I think bogleheads understand why that is bad. If you are planning on holding for the long-term, why do expect a non-productive asset to continue to appreciate indefinitely? Why not just put that money in equities? It seems like people are just performance chasing, and giving in to the FOMO.
50% VTI | 20% AVUV | 20% VXUS | 10% AVDV
Re: When would you buy cryptocurrency?
After some consideration, I suppose there are three situations in which I might buy cryptocurrency: (1) if I wanted to purchase something anonymously, (2) if I wanted to purchase something that could only be purchased in cryptocurrency (or where cryptocurrency was the most efficient medium of exchange), or (3) as a vehicle for investment or speculation. The three are related by still somewhat different.
Making a truly anonymous purchase using cryptocurrency requires acquiring the cryptocurrency anonymously in the first place, and right now, with KYC rules, that's difficult. When I looked into this last year (doing a project on illegal payments) the only ways to do it required using an intermediate medium of exchange, then paying large premiums over the market rate (15-20% was not uncommon), or taking difficult-to-quantify risks by meeting shady people in shady places to do in-person transactions. So to make this attractive the crypto world would have to reduce the transaction costs and eliminate the legal barriers to anonymous exchange. Otherwise the only people willing to pay the premiums for anonymization will be criminals or miners.
I have never seen anything I wanted offered for sale that could only be purchased with cryptocurrency, or where it was even an attractive option, but who knows? There could be something. Generally the commission on foreign exchange of fiat currencies is 0-1% over the spot rate. If cryptocurrency transactions were brought down to that level, it would become just another currency and far more usable. For wider adoption, though, the value should also be relatively stable over, say, a 12-month period, so currency purchased today, say, would have the same purchasing power this autumn. Otherwise, if everything is a spot transaction, why bother? So reduce the transaction costs and assure purchasing power stability.
Investment is contributing something of value in order to create something of greater value. I can't think of any investment I'd be interested in that requires, or even accepts, cryptocurrencies, but it's kind of like the case above. The main difference is that investment tends to be long-term, so I'd want more guarantees. The touted advantages of cryptocurrencies are also their weaknesses here. I would want there to be an international legal system capable of enforcing contracts and ownership rights, or in short, all of the protections we have now via the SEC and various securities, banking, and commodities trading laws. This extends to the management of the currencies themselves (no 51% attacks), as well as the management of exchanges (registration of currencies just like securities, so my assets would remain mine even if the exchange vanished overnight, like Mt. Gox did). Given all that, I suppose the question is what cryptocurrencies could do that can't already be done with dollars? There would need to be some competitive advantage versus other forms of stored value, along with all the things mentioned above. Speculation is another matter, and in this respect cryptocurrencies seem to be about on par with D-rated junk bonds: no guarantees, but if you're lucky enough to buy low and sell high, you can make a lot of money. But this is Bogleheads, not DayTraders R Us. Before I'd invest in anything like that I'd want it to be at least investment-grade.
If you could construct a cryptocurrency and an exchange in such a way that it could get an investment-grade rating from Moodys and S&P, that might start to look interesting, though with all the usual caveats about how those services are sometimes little more than a pay-for-play arm of the advertising industry.
Anyway, stuff like that. The main thing to start with would be to eliminate all the profiteering, at which point I'm not sure if there would be anything left?
There are also several scenarios in which I might come to own cryptocurrency without exchanging it for fiat currency. The most obvious would be if someone gave me some as a gift. Another would be if I were to mine the cryptocurrency myself or as part of a group. This latter would naturally involve expenditure of fiat currency (hardware, energy, possible contribution to setting the world on fire, etc), but still no direct exchange.
Making a truly anonymous purchase using cryptocurrency requires acquiring the cryptocurrency anonymously in the first place, and right now, with KYC rules, that's difficult. When I looked into this last year (doing a project on illegal payments) the only ways to do it required using an intermediate medium of exchange, then paying large premiums over the market rate (15-20% was not uncommon), or taking difficult-to-quantify risks by meeting shady people in shady places to do in-person transactions. So to make this attractive the crypto world would have to reduce the transaction costs and eliminate the legal barriers to anonymous exchange. Otherwise the only people willing to pay the premiums for anonymization will be criminals or miners.
I have never seen anything I wanted offered for sale that could only be purchased with cryptocurrency, or where it was even an attractive option, but who knows? There could be something. Generally the commission on foreign exchange of fiat currencies is 0-1% over the spot rate. If cryptocurrency transactions were brought down to that level, it would become just another currency and far more usable. For wider adoption, though, the value should also be relatively stable over, say, a 12-month period, so currency purchased today, say, would have the same purchasing power this autumn. Otherwise, if everything is a spot transaction, why bother? So reduce the transaction costs and assure purchasing power stability.
Investment is contributing something of value in order to create something of greater value. I can't think of any investment I'd be interested in that requires, or even accepts, cryptocurrencies, but it's kind of like the case above. The main difference is that investment tends to be long-term, so I'd want more guarantees. The touted advantages of cryptocurrencies are also their weaknesses here. I would want there to be an international legal system capable of enforcing contracts and ownership rights, or in short, all of the protections we have now via the SEC and various securities, banking, and commodities trading laws. This extends to the management of the currencies themselves (no 51% attacks), as well as the management of exchanges (registration of currencies just like securities, so my assets would remain mine even if the exchange vanished overnight, like Mt. Gox did). Given all that, I suppose the question is what cryptocurrencies could do that can't already be done with dollars? There would need to be some competitive advantage versus other forms of stored value, along with all the things mentioned above. Speculation is another matter, and in this respect cryptocurrencies seem to be about on par with D-rated junk bonds: no guarantees, but if you're lucky enough to buy low and sell high, you can make a lot of money. But this is Bogleheads, not DayTraders R Us. Before I'd invest in anything like that I'd want it to be at least investment-grade.
If you could construct a cryptocurrency and an exchange in such a way that it could get an investment-grade rating from Moodys and S&P, that might start to look interesting, though with all the usual caveats about how those services are sometimes little more than a pay-for-play arm of the advertising industry.
Anyway, stuff like that. The main thing to start with would be to eliminate all the profiteering, at which point I'm not sure if there would be anything left?
There are also several scenarios in which I might come to own cryptocurrency without exchanging it for fiat currency. The most obvious would be if someone gave me some as a gift. Another would be if I were to mine the cryptocurrency myself or as part of a group. This latter would naturally involve expenditure of fiat currency (hardware, energy, possible contribution to setting the world on fire, etc), but still no direct exchange.
- unclescrooge
- Posts: 6265
- Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:00 pm
Re: When would you buy cryptocurrency?
Actually, you can't buy a Tesla with Bitcoin.watchnerd wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 4:48 pmYou can buy a Tesla with Bitcoin.WyomingFIRE wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 4:45 pm Q: When?
A: Never
Why: I don't understand it in the same way that I understand paper towels, potato chips and underwear, and my brain cells have deteriorated to the point where I now lack the IQ to try to understand it
Your rich uncle overseas can transfer this Bitcoin to you in a way that completely bypasses normal banks and saves you wire fees.
And it happens very quickly, instead of taking days like a normal ACH or traditional transfer takes.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bitcoin- ... 39231.html
Elon Musk said on Wednesday that Tesla would stop accepting Bitcoin in car purchases.
I received a money transfer from my Mom from abroad. It happened the same day. Fees were 1%, which are less than the daily volatility in Bitcoin.
Re: When would you buy cryptocurrency?
One tweet today by Elon Musk and Bitcoin dropped 15.5%. Cryptocurrency is too unstable to be used like the dollar at this stage.
"I started with nothing and I still have most of it left."
Re: When would you buy cryptocurrency?
It *was* true....unclescrooge wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 7:34 pmActually, you can't buy a Tesla with Bitcoin.watchnerd wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 4:48 pmYou can buy a Tesla with Bitcoin.WyomingFIRE wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 4:45 pm Q: When?
A: Never
Why: I don't understand it in the same way that I understand paper towels, potato chips and underwear, and my brain cells have deteriorated to the point where I now lack the IQ to try to understand it
Your rich uncle overseas can transfer this Bitcoin to you in a way that completely bypasses normal banks and saves you wire fees.
And it happens very quickly, instead of taking days like a normal ACH or traditional transfer takes.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bitcoin- ... 39231.html
Elon Musk said on Wednesday that Tesla would stop accepting Bitcoin in car purchases.
I received a money transfer from my Mom from abroad. It happened the same day. Fees were 1%, which are less than the daily volatility in Bitcoin.
Global stocks, IG/HY bonds, gold & digital assets at market weights 75% / 19% / 6% || LMP: TIPS ladder
Re: When would you buy cryptocurrency?
Not until the question of WHY is clear to me.When would you buy cryptocurrency?
If you take away the speculation that one cryptocurrency or another will go up in price and make you rich I just don't see any reason why I should buy any.