His rants are the best. And he's usually right.
Mixing Bogle and Ramsey to build my portfolio
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Re: Mixing Bogle and Ramsey to build my portfolio
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Re: Mixing Bogle and Ramsey to build my portfolio
I think you are on the right track.... nothing wrong with taking points of wisdom from each person and making it work for you. You ended up at almost the exact portfolios that I have.... except I'm 60/20/20 in retirement - but pretty darn close! I don't own a single bond fund either - it has served me well. You will be a millionaire following the plan you have laid out..... don't forget to pay that house off too!
Stay the course!
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Re: Mixing Bogle and Ramsey to build my portfolio
Dave Scamsey’s name shouldn’t even be uttered in the same breath as John Bogle. You have all you need here on Bogleheads to learn how to deal with debt and how to invest sensibly.
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Re: Mixing Bogle and Ramsey to build my portfolio
Apples and bananas. Ramsey is best for people that hope to someday be in a position in which they can actually begin to invest. I'm not aware of Bogle advice for people with lifestyle issues that prevent them from becoming investors in the first place (which is apparently most Americans). That's where Ramsey's "tough love" excels.burritoLover wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:47 am Dave Scamsey’s name shouldn’t even be uttered in the same breath as John Bogle. You have all you need here on Bogleheads to learn how to deal with debt and how to invest sensibly.
In short:
Ramsey: Red -> Breakeven
Bogle: Breakeven -> Black
“Now shall I walk or shall I ride? |
'Ride,' Pleasure said; |
'Walk,' Joy replied.” |
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― W.H. Davies
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Re: Mixing Bogle and Ramsey to build my portfolio
So you’re saying that if someone with high debt and money management issues came here that the Bogleheads community would be utterly useless to them?backpacker61 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:57 amApples and bananas. Ramsey is best for people that hope to someday be in a position in which they can actually begin to invest. I'm not aware of Bogle advice for people with lifestyle issues that prevent them from becoming investors in the first place (which is apparently most Americans). That's where Ramsey's "tough love" excels.burritoLover wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:47 am Dave Scamsey’s name shouldn’t even be uttered in the same breath as John Bogle. You have all you need here on Bogleheads to learn how to deal with debt and how to invest sensibly.
In short:
Ramsey: Red -> Breakeven
Bogle: Breakeven -> Black
Re: Mixing Bogle and Ramsey to build my portfolio
[quoted post removed by admin LadyGeek]
I wish more people would aspire to common sense. Talk about a step up in general behavior and outcomes.
A quick search tells me that over 40% of people who go to college don't graduate. How many of those took out student loans, which can't be discharged in bankruptcy, and have no degree to earn the money to pay them back? How many lost years is that, working at low wages for nothing just to pay on a mistake. What if they had followed Mr. Ramsey's common-sense advice instead: https://www.ramseysolutions.com/saving/ ... CNL_180617
I wish more people would aspire to common sense. Talk about a step up in general behavior and outcomes.
A quick search tells me that over 40% of people who go to college don't graduate. How many of those took out student loans, which can't be discharged in bankruptcy, and have no degree to earn the money to pay them back? How many lost years is that, working at low wages for nothing just to pay on a mistake. What if they had followed Mr. Ramsey's common-sense advice instead: https://www.ramseysolutions.com/saving/ ... CNL_180617
Re: Mixing Bogle and Ramsey to build my portfolio
I'm not the person you asked, but I would say the Bogleheads would be inclined to advise, "Just be richer!"burritoLover wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:08 amSo you’re saying that if someone with high debt and money management issues came here that the Bogleheads community would be utterly useless to them?backpacker61 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:57 amApples and bananas. Ramsey is best for people that hope to someday be in a position in which they can actually begin to invest. I'm not aware of Bogle advice for people with lifestyle issues that prevent them from becoming investors in the first place (which is apparently most Americans). That's where Ramsey's "tough love" excels.burritoLover wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:47 am Dave Scamsey’s name shouldn’t even be uttered in the same breath as John Bogle. You have all you need here on Bogleheads to learn how to deal with debt and how to invest sensibly.
In short:
Ramsey: Red -> Breakeven
Bogle: Breakeven -> Black
Plus some who have actually "been there" and would say something useful and to the purpose.
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Re: Mixing Bogle and Ramsey to build my portfolio
Not useless, but I thought that calling him 'Dave Scamsey' is pretty childish. I think Dave has helped more people with lifestyle/spending issues than we Bogleheads have. Probably by far. Not even close. And most Americans are in positions in which Dave Ramsey's programming is more relevant for their situation.burritoLover wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:08 amSo you’re saying that if someone with high debt and money management issues came here that the Bogleheads community would be utterly useless to them?backpacker61 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:57 amApples and bananas. Ramsey is best for people that hope to someday be in a position in which they can actually begin to invest. I'm not aware of Bogle advice for people with lifestyle issues that prevent them from becoming investors in the first place (which is apparently most Americans). That's where Ramsey's "tough love" excels.burritoLover wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:47 am Dave Scamsey’s name shouldn’t even be uttered in the same breath as John Bogle. You have all you need here on Bogleheads to learn how to deal with debt and how to invest sensibly.
In short:
Ramsey: Red -> Breakeven
Bogle: Breakeven -> Black
Bogleheads have better helped people already disposed to saving to do so more efficiently.
“Now shall I walk or shall I ride? |
'Ride,' Pleasure said; |
'Walk,' Joy replied.” |
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― W.H. Davies
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Re: Mixing Bogle and Ramsey to build my portfolio
"Scamsey" is appropriate. He's getting kickbacks from his "Endorsed Local Providers" which push you into active funds with front-end loads and high ERs. He then tries to justify why a front-end load is better than no-load and it is laughable:backpacker61 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:37 amNot useless, but I thought that calling him 'Dave Scamsey' is pretty childish. I think Dave has helped more people with lifestyle/spending issues than we Bogleheads have. Probably by far. Not even close. And most Americans are in positions in which Dave Ramsey's programming is more relevant for their situation.burritoLover wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:08 amSo you’re saying that if someone with high debt and money management issues came here that the Bogleheads community would be utterly useless to them?backpacker61 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:57 amApples and bananas. Ramsey is best for people that hope to someday be in a position in which they can actually begin to invest. I'm not aware of Bogle advice for people with lifestyle issues that prevent them from becoming investors in the first place (which is apparently most Americans). That's where Ramsey's "tough love" excels.burritoLover wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:47 am Dave Scamsey’s name shouldn’t even be uttered in the same breath as John Bogle. You have all you need here on Bogleheads to learn how to deal with debt and how to invest sensibly.
In short:
Ramsey: Red -> Breakeven
Bogle: Breakeven -> Black
Bogleheads have better helped people already disposed to saving to do so more efficiently.
https://www.ramseysolutions.com/retirem ... front-fees
If someone with money troubles wants more of a video-based series like Ramsey, I would recommend "The Money Guys" on Youtube - they go a lot into managing your debt, reducing expenses, saving, etc and their investment advice is sane and not based on a desire to bilk people out of money.
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Re: Mixing Bogle and Ramsey to build my portfolio
There are a lot of first-timers that come on here, fill out the information in the recommended format, and get tons of good advice regardless of their income.Ivygirl wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:35 amI'm not the person you asked, but I would say the Bogleheads would be inclined to advise, "Just be richer!"burritoLover wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:08 amSo you’re saying that if someone with high debt and money management issues came here that the Bogleheads community would be utterly useless to them?backpacker61 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:57 amApples and bananas. Ramsey is best for people that hope to someday be in a position in which they can actually begin to invest. I'm not aware of Bogle advice for people with lifestyle issues that prevent them from becoming investors in the first place (which is apparently most Americans). That's where Ramsey's "tough love" excels.burritoLover wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:47 am Dave Scamsey’s name shouldn’t even be uttered in the same breath as John Bogle. You have all you need here on Bogleheads to learn how to deal with debt and how to invest sensibly.
In short:
Ramsey: Red -> Breakeven
Bogle: Breakeven -> Black
Re: Mixing Bogle and Ramsey to build my portfolio
Other than pointing at a wiki...yeah probably.burritoLover wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:08 amSo you’re saying that if someone with high debt and money management issues came here that the Bogleheads community would be utterly useless to them?backpacker61 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:57 amApples and bananas. Ramsey is best for people that hope to someday be in a position in which they can actually begin to invest. I'm not aware of Bogle advice for people with lifestyle issues that prevent them from becoming investors in the first place (which is apparently most Americans). That's where Ramsey's "tough love" excels.burritoLover wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:47 am Dave Scamsey’s name shouldn’t even be uttered in the same breath as John Bogle. You have all you need here on Bogleheads to learn how to deal with debt and how to invest sensibly.
In short:
Ramsey: Red -> Breakeven
Bogle: Breakeven -> Black
Re: Mixing Bogle and Ramsey to build my portfolio
Your "mixing Bogle and Ramsey" portfolio looks like the Taylor/Boglehead recommended "Three Fund Portfolio" or a Vanguard Target Retirement fund.
Your portfolio looks nothing like a Ramsey recommendation of paying an advisor to put you into active (likely high-fee) "Growth, Aggressive Growth, Growth and Income, and International" and no bonds or CD's just an "emergency fund" of 6mo expenses (maybe more if you're self employed or have irregular income).
Your portfolio looks nothing like a Ramsey recommendation of paying an advisor to put you into active (likely high-fee) "Growth, Aggressive Growth, Growth and Income, and International" and no bonds or CD's just an "emergency fund" of 6mo expenses (maybe more if you're self employed or have irregular income).
"To achieve satisfactory investment results is easier than most people realize; to achieve superior results is harder than it looks." - Benjamin Graham
Re: Mixing Bogle and Ramsey to build my portfolio
Nice article. I would go one step forward beyond:Ivygirl wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:32 am [quoted post removed by admin LadyGeek]
I wish more people would aspire to common sense. Talk about a step up in general behavior and outcomes.
A quick search tells me that over 40% of people who go to college don't graduate. How many of those took out student loans, which can't be discharged in bankruptcy, and have no degree to earn the money to pay them back? How many lost years is that, working at low wages for nothing just to pay on a mistake. What if they had followed Mr. Ramsey's common-sense advice instead: https://www.ramseysolutions.com/saving/ ... CNL_180617
“When it comes to choosing a school, the only relevant factor is if you can pay for it without student loans.”
And drop the “if you can pay for it without student loans” part and replace with “out of pocket cost”.
The assumed caveat is that it is an accredited college.
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Re: Mixing Bogle and Ramsey to build my portfolio
Equity income doesn’t get much support from Bogleheads, as total returns are favored over dividend-generated returns.
Conventional wisdom does have you shift assets into bonds at a higher proportion as you get older. I was 100% equities at your age and am now comfortable at 30% in bonds. I still have difficulty with moving towards a lower stock allocation. Therefore, I frequently review Jack Bogle’s “Common Sense Investing” book as well as “The Bogleheads’ Guide to Investing”—particularly the sections on bond funds and their role in asset allocation to help me find my equilibrium.
Note that Ramsey never advises holding bonds and bond funds. He views any debt instrument as being contrary to his faith-based approach (‘the borrower is slave to the lender’—from the book of Proverbs). In this respect, you will not find common ground between the two schools of thought.
Re: Mixing Bogle and Ramsey to build my portfolio
The plan OP wrote looks good. But I'm just not a Ramsey fan. I understand tough love, but I personally find him very rude. I've only tried to view a few clips from his show. But I can't make it through a single one because he talks over just about every caller like he has somewhere else he needs to be. Or almost like he doesn't want to be there. To me on the show he also exudes an air of "I'm better/holier than thou" but I could just be reaching. I love Chris Hogan though. His personal life issues aside, he seems more genuine about helping/educating people and more personable to me at least.
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Re: Mixing Bogle and Ramsey to build my portfolio
+1. I think Graham has it about right. Between 75/25 and 25/75 is reasonable. In your late 30s with saving, I think it’s a mistake to ignore fixed income altogether. If you look at the vanguard model portfolio allocations, the difference between 70/30 and 100/0 is slight in terms of expected return, but significant in terms of volatility. Stable value in a 401k if you have that option would be a good place to hold fixed income.Beensabu wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:29 pmFor this, perhaps go with "never bear too much or too little risk". The definition of that differs. Graham said between 75% equities / 25% fixed income and 25% equities / 75% fixed income. Other people say between 70/30 to 30/70. And someone interesting who has disappeared recently said between 60/40 to 40/60. Someone even more interesting of whom I was reminded by the recent interesting person said just stay at 50/50.
It doesn't matter which, as long as it works for you. But don't base your asset allocation on some cookie cutter recommendation. Go to the Wiki here, drill down, and see if you can figure out something that makes sense for you based on your actual personal circumstances and needs.
Re: Mixing Bogle and Ramsey to build my portfolio
Why did you leave out the second part of my quote? Seems a bit scamsy.burritoLover wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:51 amThere are a lot of first-timers that come on here, fill out the information in the recommended format, and get tons of good advice regardless of their income.Ivygirl wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:35 amI'm not the person you asked, but I would say the Bogleheads would be inclined to advise, "Just be richer!"burritoLover wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:08 amSo you’re saying that if someone with high debt and money management issues came here that the Bogleheads community would be utterly useless to them?backpacker61 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:57 amApples and bananas. Ramsey is best for people that hope to someday be in a position in which they can actually begin to invest. I'm not aware of Bogle advice for people with lifestyle issues that prevent them from becoming investors in the first place (which is apparently most Americans). That's where Ramsey's "tough love" excels.burritoLover wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:47 am Dave Scamsey’s name shouldn’t even be uttered in the same breath as John Bogle. You have all you need here on Bogleheads to learn how to deal with debt and how to invest sensibly.
In short:
Ramsey: Red -> Breakeven
Bogle: Breakeven -> Black
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Re: Mixing Bogle and Ramsey to build my portfolio
Yep totally.Ivygirl wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:51 amWhy did you leave out the second part of my quote? Seems a bit scamsy.burritoLover wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:51 amThere are a lot of first-timers that come on here, fill out the information in the recommended format, and get tons of good advice regardless of their income.Ivygirl wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:35 amI'm not the person you asked, but I would say the Bogleheads would be inclined to advise, "Just be richer!"burritoLover wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:08 amSo you’re saying that if someone with high debt and money management issues came here that the Bogleheads community would be utterly useless to them?backpacker61 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:57 am
Apples and bananas. Ramsey is best for people that hope to someday be in a position in which they can actually begin to invest. I'm not aware of Bogle advice for people with lifestyle issues that prevent them from becoming investors in the first place (which is apparently most Americans). That's where Ramsey's "tough love" excels.
In short:
Ramsey: Red -> Breakeven
Bogle: Breakeven -> Black
Re: Mixing Bogle and Ramsey to build my portfolio
You prefer politeness, that's fine. Mr. Hogan however lived a double life for a long time in ways both personal and professional. Seeming genuine is smoother-looking than being so sometimes.cnblure wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:24 am The plan OP wrote looks good. But I'm just not a Ramsey fan. I understand tough love, but I personally find him very rude. I've only tried to view a few clips from his show. But I can't make it through a single one because he talks over just about every caller like he has somewhere else he needs to be. Or almost like he doesn't want to be there. To me on the show he also exudes an air of "I'm better/holier than thou" but I could just be reaching. I love Chris Hogan though. His personal life issues aside, he seems more genuine about helping/educating people and more personable to me at least.
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Re: Mixing Bogle and Ramsey to build my portfolio
Ah, but the stock/bond index fund road is the most direct and safest route.
An important key to investing is having a well-calibrated sense of your future regret.
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Re: Mixing Bogle and Ramsey to build my portfolio
That's a good point. But I don't think that his current advice (pick active growth funds with a good historical record) results in anything good either.Ivygirl wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:18 amI can just imagine the results of explaining all that on the radio, to unsophisticated investors.ivgrivchuck wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:36 pm1. Diversification. Active management doesn't mean throwing diversification out of the window. Don't put all eggs into the same basket. Take care that you money is allocated across multiple sectors, between value and growth, and geographically. You need to find the right mix of funds, appropriate for your situation, and understand to what extent those funds themselves are diversified.
2. Understand what you get in return for the fund fee. The fund manager is trying to beat the market and you are paying him some extra to do that. The fund needs to have a clear, easily explainable strategy how it plans to achieve this. Maybe it's searching for very highly quality companies at fair price. Maybe it's searching for companies which are facing temporary difficulties and are potentially under-priced. Maybe it's trying to identify companies that are close to technological breakthrough. There are a plenty of active funds where the only real distinguishing factor from the index funds is the fund fee, you don't want to buy any of those...
Academic research shows that active funds in the long run tend to give the same return as index funds minus fees.We don't know this for sure, but it is strongly speculated that the funds Dave is invested in himself and uses for his model are American Funds. Do American Funds follow "sound active management principles"? Why not just buy those? What would $10,000 look like in 10 years if one did?
I haven't studied American Funds closely enough to answer your question on how sound they are.
25% VTI | 25% VXUS | 12.5% AVUV | 10% AVDV | 2.5% VWO | 25% BND/SCHR/SCHP
Re: Mixing Bogle and Ramsey to build my portfolio
Sorry but you are shouting into the wind. I have never purchased nor read any of his books and I haven't purchased nor used any of his products. I do not agree with his investing advice which I do not think is optimal, and I haven't followed his baby steps or a lot of the things he recommends. However, I do find his podcast on Spotify interesting to listen to while working, and I have heard him directly help a lot of people who have no idea what they are doing. I've also heard him give away a ton of books and products to callers who need help. I just don't get what's the big deal, is it that he built a business and makes money off financial advice and we haven't? I mean really, what is the end game for us here - have a successful retirement enjoying the built up fruits of our labor, yes? There are more ways to get there than through rigid adherence to the Bogleheads doctrine. Our way is probably the best way, but most people who start following Dave aren't even walking in the direction of a successful retirement, so I don't see how getting them started on the path is such a bad thing.
Re: Mixing Bogle and Ramsey to build my portfolio
I don't think DR's advice to avoid all debt like the plague is based on "financial concerns". So I think each person has to decide if the "non-financial reasons" to do this are important to them.
Re: Mixing Bogle and Ramsey to build my portfolio
Are you named after the AMD processor?Ryzen wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:43 pmSorry but you are shouting into the wind. I have never purchased nor read any of his books and I haven't purchased nor used any of his products. I do not agree with his investing advice which I do not think is optimal, and I haven't followed his baby steps or a lot of the things he recommends. However, I do find his podcast on Spotify interesting to listen to while working, and I have heard him directly help a lot of people who have no idea what they are doing. I've also heard him give away a ton of books and products to callers who need help. I just don't get what's the big deal, is it that he built a business and makes money off financial advice and we haven't? I mean really, what is the end game for us here - have a successful retirement enjoying the built up fruits of our labor, yes? There are more ways to get there than through rigid adherence to the Bogleheads doctrine. Our way is probably the best way, but most people who start following Dave aren't even walking in the direction of a successful retirement, so I don't see how getting them started on the path is such a bad thing.
Yeah I think the biggest example that comes up is that when paying off debt, he recommends starting with the smallest loan first, so as to obtain a "quick" win and reduce the number of loans outstanding. Mathematically, and Bogleheadish, one should attack the loan with the highest interest rate. So I think a lot of his baby steps and other "rules" are about building good habits and not fretting the details. I feel like if his investing advice was "pile everything you can in the Vanguard Target Retirement fund for your retirement date" people would be singing praises instead...
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Re: Mixing Bogle and Ramsey to build my portfolio
Jack Bogle recommended Total Stock (or S&P 500) and Total Bond. He said International was not needed.flaman wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:26 pm Hi Bogleheads,
Over the course of the last year or so, I've put in a significant amount of time watching Jack Bogle interviews and Dave Ramsey's shows on YouTube, absorbing as much information as I possibly could as it relates to personal finance and investing. Just as an FYI, I don't necessarily agree with everything that Ramsey has to say regarding investing, but I do find some of it to be useful. If I had to decide between following ones advice over the other, I would definitely side with Bogle. Having said that, I would like to share some key takeaways, if it should help anyone on their journey, and I welcome all feedback from more experienced investors.
Key takeaways from what I've learned:
1.) Avoid debt like the plague. (Ramsey)
2.) Keep three to six months of living expenses in cash savings as an emergency fund. (Ramsey)
3.) Invest in mutual funds according to this asset allocation: 25% Equity Income, 25% Growth, 25% Aggressive Growth, 25% International. (Ramsey)
4.) Invest in low-cost broad-market index funds. (Bogle)
5.) Increase bond allocation as you get older (Bogle)
6.) As market conditions change, don't react. "Don't do anything, just stand there." (Bogle)
In light of these takeaways, this is how I've constructed my personal portfolio:
For context, I'm 37 years old and married with two children.
Emergency Fund
Three months of living expenses in a High Yield Savings account
$15k
Taxable Brokerage
75% Total Market Index (VTI)
25% Total International Index (VXUS)
$35k
529 College Savings Plan
75% Total Market Index
25% Total International Index
$7k
Retirement
50% S&P 500 Index (FXAIX)
25% Extended Market Index (FSMAX)
25% International Index (FSPSX)
$332k
As you can see, my retirement allocation is a bit more aggressive than the standard Total Market Index. The 25% allocation to the Extended Market is essentially a push on small caps for "aggressive growth." Small caps have been shown to outperform the S&P over very long periods (decades). For me, it makes sense to incorporate this push on small caps when the investment is considered a 'life-long' endeavor. In contrast, I might need to pull money from my taxable brokerage at a moments notice, and so I dampen down the volatility of small caps by holding them by their market weight in the Total Market Index. Same goes for the 529 College Savings Plan, I don't necessarily have 'decades' to save for college.
As far as Bond Allocation is concerned, I've learned from this forum not to hold bonds in taxable or Roth. I agree with the notion that bonds are not necessary in the early stages of my wealth-building journey. As far as I'm concerned, equities are for building wealth and bonds are for preserving wealth.
This is my plan for adding bonds to my retirement accounts:
I plan to retire at age 65.
At age 37: 75/25/0 (us/int/bnd)
At age 55: 60/20/20 (us/int/bnd)
At age 65: 45/15/40 (us/int/bnd)
This is my plan for adding bonds to the 529 College Savings Plan:
Plan for college in 2034.
In 2021: 75/25/0 (us/int/bnd)
In 2028: 60/20/20 (us/int/bnd)
In 2030: 45/15/40 (us/int/bnd)
In 2032: 30/10/60 (us/int/bnd)
In 2034: 15/5/40/40 (us/int/bnd/mm) - here "mm" = money market
I'm particularly interested in getting feedback regarding my planned approach to bonds. Do most of you agree with it? Or have I missed something in my 'knowledge-building' journey.
Thanks for taking the time to consider my post
Tony
John C. Bogle: “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."
Re: Mixing Bogle and Ramsey to build my portfolio
Oy, not this again....
Vanguard themselves don't agree with Bogle on this, as evidenced by the AA in their target retirement funds.
But you already know that.
Global stocks, IG/HY bonds, gold & digital assets at market weights 75% / 19% / 6% || LMP: TIPS ladder
Re: Mixing Bogle and Ramsey to build my portfolio
Well I won't shout into the wind any longer with a proper reply.Ryzen wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:43 pmSorry but you are shouting into the wind. I have never purchased nor read any of his books and I haven't purchased nor used any of his products. I do not agree with his investing advice which I do not think is optimal, and I haven't followed his baby steps or a lot of the things he recommends. However, I do find his podcast on Spotify interesting to listen to while working, and I have heard him directly help a lot of people who have no idea what they are doing. I've also heard him give away a ton of books and products to callers who need help. I just don't get what's the big deal, is it that he built a business and makes money off financial advice and we haven't? I mean really, what is the end game for us here - have a successful retirement enjoying the built up fruits of our labor, yes? There are more ways to get there than through rigid adherence to the Bogleheads doctrine. Our way is probably the best way, but most people who start following Dave aren't even walking in the direction of a successful retirement, so I don't see how getting them started on the path is such a bad thing.
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Re: Mixing Bogle and Ramsey to build my portfolio
Correct. However, the question referenced Jack Bogle and not Vanguard.
Tony
John C. Bogle: “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."
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Re: Mixing Bogle and Ramsey to build my portfolio
The second quoted paragraph gets to the heart of the problem some of us have with Dave Ramsey. His financial philosophy is intertwined with his religious views. Some of us had our first introduction to Ramsey, or in my case to Ramsey's mentor Larry Burkett (who died in 2003), not over the radio but through seminars offered by evangelical churches. In my case there was tremendous emotional pressure not only to become debt free but also to adopt every single one of the Burkett/Ramsey methods and to adopt the worldview associated with them.DesertDiva wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:15 am Conventional wisdom does have you shift assets into bonds at a higher proportion as you get older. I was 100% equities at your age and am now comfortable at 30% in bonds. I still have difficulty with moving towards a lower stock allocation. Therefore, I frequently review Jack Bogle’s “Common Sense Investing” book as well as “The Bogleheads’ Guide to Investing”—particularly the sections on bond funds and their role in asset allocation to help me find my equilibrium.
Note that Ramsey never advises holding bonds and bond funds. He views any debt instrument as being contrary to his faith-based approach (‘the borrower is slave to the lender’—from the book of Proverbs). In this respect, you will not find common ground between the two schools of thought.
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Re: Mixing Bogle and Ramsey to build my portfolio
Re: Mixing Bogle and Ramsey to build my portfolio
Wrong thread?anon_investor wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:46 pmWhere did all the ARK funds and BTC suggestions go?
Global stocks, IG/HY bonds, gold & digital assets at market weights 75% / 19% / 6% || LMP: TIPS ladder
Re: Mixing Bogle and Ramsey to build my portfolio
You're wary of compulsion and an expectation of conformity and emotional pressure to say you believe something when you're not sure that you do.UpperNwGuy wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:33 pmThe second quoted paragraph gets to the heart of the problem some of us have with Dave Ramsey. His financial philosophy is intertwined with his religious views. Some of us had our first introduction to Ramsey, or in my case to Ramsey's mentor Larry Burkett (who died in 2003), not over the radio but through seminars offered by evangelical churches. In my case there was tremendous emotional pressure not only to become debt free but also to adopt every single one of the Burkett/Ramsey methods and to adopt the worldview associated with them.DesertDiva wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:15 am Conventional wisdom does have you shift assets into bonds at a higher proportion as you get older. I was 100% equities at your age and am now comfortable at 30% in bonds. I still have difficulty with moving towards a lower stock allocation. Therefore, I frequently review Jack Bogle’s “Common Sense Investing” book as well as “The Bogleheads’ Guide to Investing”—particularly the sections on bond funds and their role in asset allocation to help me find my equilibrium.
Note that Ramsey never advises holding bonds and bond funds. He views any debt instrument as being contrary to his faith-based approach (‘the borrower is slave to the lender’—from the book of Proverbs). In this respect, you will not find common ground between the two schools of thought.
Consider how Mr. Ramsey spreads his teaching. Primarily on the radio. Can you imagine being more free to take or leave something than that? He's talking, you can listen or not, you're in your freedom machine cruising along.
Buy his book? You can get it at the thrift store, the library, or the same information online, and he never knows you did or didn't, or who you are.
Also consider what happens when people call in to his show. He does not allow anyone to latch onto him emotionally. He gives them a few minutes then that's it, go out and do what I said, or not. He's ruff and gruff and yells sometimes. People get weird and clingy with celebrity figures they think are going to solve all their problems, he wants none of that, here's your advice now get cracking and become a winner.
There is a balance to be struck between guiding a child learning to walk - "baby steps" - and taking your hands away. Dave wants you to walk.
My point is, he has set up his business model so you aren't compelled, nobody could find you to give you a scolding if you didn't conform, and the emotional pressure to say you believe something when you're not sure that you do is completely missing. This is grace, considering as a man he's a choleric and a bit of a control freak. Grace.
Re: Mixing Bogle and Ramsey to build my portfolio
Very well. I'd be interested to hear a follow up response, just try to stay away from saying ridiculous things like "kidnapper's candy." Like I said, I don't even follow the guy's teachings, so not sure how I haven't detected a wolf in sheep's clothing.kelway wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:05 pmWell I won't shout into the wind any longer with a proper reply.Ryzen wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:43 pmSorry but you are shouting into the wind. I have never purchased nor read any of his books and I haven't purchased nor used any of his products. I do not agree with his investing advice which I do not think is optimal, and I haven't followed his baby steps or a lot of the things he recommends. However, I do find his podcast on Spotify interesting to listen to while working, and I have heard him directly help a lot of people who have no idea what they are doing. I've also heard him give away a ton of books and products to callers who need help. I just don't get what's the big deal, is it that he built a business and makes money off financial advice and we haven't? I mean really, what is the end game for us here - have a successful retirement enjoying the built up fruits of our labor, yes? There are more ways to get there than through rigid adherence to the Bogleheads doctrine. Our way is probably the best way, but most people who start following Dave aren't even walking in the direction of a successful retirement, so I don't see how getting them started on the path is such a bad thing.
Re: Mixing Bogle and Ramsey to build my portfolio
[quoted post removed by admin LadyGeek]
This is the kind of vitriol that at times makes Bogleheads an unwelcome site to visit. The OP wanted to gain perspective on his current situation. Instead his thread was hijacked and one of the tools the the OP used to help get him where he is was trashed. I thought that pesonal attacks and name calling were prohibited? If that is so, half the posts on this thread should be deleted.
This is the kind of vitriol that at times makes Bogleheads an unwelcome site to visit. The OP wanted to gain perspective on his current situation. Instead his thread was hijacked and one of the tools the the OP used to help get him where he is was trashed. I thought that pesonal attacks and name calling were prohibited? If that is so, half the posts on this thread should be deleted.
- ruralavalon
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Re: Mixing Bogle and Ramsey to build my portfolio
It seems everyone has forgotten the originals poster, and what they asked from us.knibloe wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:41 am [quoted post removed by admin LadyGeek]
This is the kind of vitriol that at times makes Bogleheads an unwelcome site to visit. The OP wanted to gain perspective on his current situation. Instead his thread was hijacked and one of the tools the the OP used to help get him where he is was trashed. I thought that pesonal attacks and name calling were prohibited? If that is so, half the posts on this thread should be deleted.
"Everything should be as simple as it is, but not simpler." - Albert Einstein |
Wiki article link: Bogleheads® investment philosophy
Re: Mixing Bogle and Ramsey to build my portfolio
I removed an off-topic post. As a reminder, see: General Etiquette
At all times we must conduct ourselves in a respectful manner to other posters. Attacks on individuals, insults, name calling, trolling, baiting or other attempts to sow dissension are not acceptable.
Re: Mixing Bogle and Ramsey to build my portfolio
My mom and dad have been in American Funds the last 20 years. my dad asked me to evaluate his account and it was my first deep dive into American Funds.Ivygirl wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:18 am We don't know this for sure, but it is strongly speculated that the funds Dave is invested in himself and uses for his model are American Funds. Do American Funds follow "sound active management principles"? Why not just buy those? What would $10,000 look like in 10 years if one did?
I find all of their funds have a Rsquared of 90+ % so i don't really know what that much different from them and the index they follow. They sneak FAANG stocks into international funds. after fees they have over that time slightly beaten the market in a similar allocation. and they've only started beating the market 3 years ago. and its not by much.
My parents are on the verge of retirement. My dad is a worrier and there is no way they or I are going to manage withdrawals for them. So while in my head I'm like I feel like you could get similar performance at a much cheaper rate, i'm not going to do it at this point, and neither are they. So I just told them its not what I do but I think they'll be fine. I believe that opens the door for me to someday potentially take over if required. My parents retirement guy is a little younger than they so i'm not sure what his longevity is and who will take that over.
Re: Mixing Bogle and Ramsey to build my portfolio
On a positive note, when the ELPs fleece investors they do it "with the heart of a teacher."
"I look at a hundred deals a day. I pick one." -Gordon Gekko
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Re: Mixing Bogle and Ramsey to build my portfolio
All well and good, but I already live by a budget, I have an emergency fund, I don't carry debt, and I have a self-managed investment portfolio of low-cost, broad-market index funds, so I really don't need Ramsey for anything. My point is that some of us were first exposed to Ramsey through churches, and if you read his website you'll see that working through churches is still very much a part of his business model. Google "Ramsey+ for Churches" or "Financial Peace University."Ivygirl wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:10 amYou're wary of compulsion and an expectation of conformity and emotional pressure to say you believe something when you're not sure that you do.UpperNwGuy wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:33 pmThe second quoted paragraph gets to the heart of the problem some of us have with Dave Ramsey. His financial philosophy is intertwined with his religious views. Some of us had our first introduction to Ramsey, or in my case to Ramsey's mentor Larry Burkett (who died in 2003), not over the radio but through seminars offered by evangelical churches. In my case there was tremendous emotional pressure not only to become debt free but also to adopt every single one of the Burkett/Ramsey methods and to adopt the worldview associated with them.DesertDiva wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:15 am Conventional wisdom does have you shift assets into bonds at a higher proportion as you get older. I was 100% equities at your age and am now comfortable at 30% in bonds. I still have difficulty with moving towards a lower stock allocation. Therefore, I frequently review Jack Bogle’s “Common Sense Investing” book as well as “The Bogleheads’ Guide to Investing”—particularly the sections on bond funds and their role in asset allocation to help me find my equilibrium.
Note that Ramsey never advises holding bonds and bond funds. He views any debt instrument as being contrary to his faith-based approach (‘the borrower is slave to the lender’—from the book of Proverbs). In this respect, you will not find common ground between the two schools of thought.
Consider how Mr. Ramsey spreads his teaching. Primarily on the radio. Can you imagine being more free to take or leave something than that? He's talking, you can listen or not, you're in your freedom machine cruising along.
Buy his book? You can get it at the thrift store, the library, or the same information online, and he never knows you did or didn't, or who you are.
Also consider what happens when people call in to his show. He does not allow anyone to latch onto him emotionally. He gives them a few minutes then that's it, go out and do what I said, or not. He's ruff and gruff and yells sometimes. People get weird and clingy with celebrity figures they think are going to solve all their problems, he wants none of that, here's your advice now get cracking and become a winner.
There is a balance to be struck between guiding a child learning to walk - "baby steps" - and taking your hands away. Dave wants you to walk.
My point is, he has set up his business model so you aren't compelled, nobody could find you to give you a scolding if you didn't conform, and the emotional pressure to say you believe something when you're not sure that you do is completely missing. This is grace, considering as a man he's a choleric and a bit of a control freak. Grace.
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Re: Mixing Bogle and Ramsey to build my portfolio
Keep in mind that Jack Bogle had extensive finance education and experience. He was a true expert in the field and a true innovator. Dave Ramsey screwed up and went broke a bunch of times, then didn't and decided he was an expert on not going broke. While he does have SOME good advice for people who don't understand how their checking account could be overdrawn when there are still checks left in the checkbook, he is not a finance guy by any means. My update to your general list is below:
Key takeaways from what I've learned:
1.) Avoid debt like the plague. (Ramsey) Use credit and debt responsibly as you live below your means.
2.) Keep three to six twelve months of living expenses in cash savings as an emergency fund. (Ramsey)Suze Orman
3.) Invest in mutual funds according to this asset allocation: 25% Equity Income, 25% Growth, 25% Aggressive Growth, 25% International. (Ramsey) Invest in a simple 3 fund portfolio of US stock, US bond and international. A starting rule of thumb is 30% of stock as international and your age in bonds. (Taylor, Jack and me editing and combining)
4.) Invest in low-cost broad-market index funds. (Bogle)
5.) Increase bond allocation as you get older (Bogle)
6.) As market conditions change, don't react. "Don't do anything, just stand there." (Bogle)
It's generally accepted here to use Dave Ramsey to get out of debt. Do NOT use him for any investing advice. His associated network (forget what he calls it) is nothing but high cost, unvetted people who pay Dave an initiation fee and then a monthly fee. Essentially Dave becomes a lead harvesting provider. I....or you could become an associated advisor by sending in the fees. I read a piece where the author did exactly that. No background or education and became an associate, just like that. Don't do that and don't follow Dave's investing advice.
I will say that I've watched hundreds of Dave's videos and shake my head yes more often than not with his advice. But the questions would have most here whacking their forehead that the questioner could be so misguided.
Key takeaways from what I've learned:
1.) Avoid debt like the plague. (Ramsey) Use credit and debt responsibly as you live below your means.
2.) Keep three to six twelve months of living expenses in cash savings as an emergency fund. (Ramsey)Suze Orman
3.) Invest in mutual funds according to this asset allocation: 25% Equity Income, 25% Growth, 25% Aggressive Growth, 25% International. (Ramsey) Invest in a simple 3 fund portfolio of US stock, US bond and international. A starting rule of thumb is 30% of stock as international and your age in bonds. (Taylor, Jack and me editing and combining)
4.) Invest in low-cost broad-market index funds. (Bogle)
5.) Increase bond allocation as you get older (Bogle)
6.) As market conditions change, don't react. "Don't do anything, just stand there." (Bogle)
It's generally accepted here to use Dave Ramsey to get out of debt. Do NOT use him for any investing advice. His associated network (forget what he calls it) is nothing but high cost, unvetted people who pay Dave an initiation fee and then a monthly fee. Essentially Dave becomes a lead harvesting provider. I....or you could become an associated advisor by sending in the fees. I read a piece where the author did exactly that. No background or education and became an associate, just like that. Don't do that and don't follow Dave's investing advice.
I will say that I've watched hundreds of Dave's videos and shake my head yes more often than not with his advice. But the questions would have most here whacking their forehead that the questioner could be so misguided.
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid