I cant find anything better than S&P

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ruralavalon
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Re: I cant find anything better than S&P

Post by ruralavalon »

beernutz wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:00 am
jason2459 wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:02 am
beernutz wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:59 am
newyorker wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:00 pm
anon_investor wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:59 pm My vote: Total US Stock Market Index and chill.
Vtsax then chill? Isnt it literally same as vfiax historically?
Not according to portfoliovisualizer.
Certainly with in error

11.53 vs 11.35 CAGR
https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/bac ... ion1_1=100
How does that show VTSAX vs VFIAX?
Here are older share classes of those funds: Portfolio Visualizer, 1993-2021. The performance of the two funds has been almost identical.
"Everything should be as simple as it is, but not simpler." - Albert Einstein | Wiki article link: Bogleheads® investment philosophy
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Re: I cant find anything better than S&P

Post by abuss368 »

newyorker wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:49 pm Just putting money in S&P is what I am doing.

I tried to look into buying real estate

Buying individual stocks and etc.

But everything seems like a lot of hassle and more risk than just cruising with DCA into the market.

Do you guys have any other suggestion where to put money?
You have an excellent portfolio strategy. At one time, I was a participant in a very high cost employer plan. The only low cost fund was an S&P 500 fund. I selected this one fund. In hindsight, it was a very good decision.

Stay the course!
Tony
John C. Bogle: “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."
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Re: I cant find anything better than S&P

Post by abuss368 »

whereskyle wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:11 am
newyorker wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:49 pm Just putting money in S&P is what I am doing.

I tried to look into buying real estate

Buying individual stocks and etc.

But everything seems like a lot of hassle and more risk than just cruising with DCA into the market.

Do you guys have any other suggestion where to put money?
Just doing this is a fantastic idea. I prefer VTSAX (total market), but an SP 500 index fund is a beautiful thing.
Over the long term, the difference between Total Stock and S&P 500 is a rounding error. Either fund is an excellent choice for including in a portfolio.

Tony
John C. Bogle: “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."
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Re: I cant find anything better than S&P

Post by abuss368 »

Marseille07 wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:57 pm Levered S&P, but requires huge risk tolerance to hold tight. Weak hands get shaken out.
I would not recommend leveraged investments in a portfolio. Many investors may not fully appreciate the possible risk and downside.

Leverage works great on the way up but can crush one when the tide goes out.

Tony
John C. Bogle: “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."
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Re: I cant find anything better than S&P

Post by abuss368 »

anon_investor wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:59 pm My vote: Total US Stock Market Index and chill.
I like that advice and see it on the forum. Another one I enjoy is “VTI is a modern marvel”.

Tony
John C. Bogle: “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."
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Re: I cant find anything better than S&P

Post by abuss368 »

Marseille07 wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:19 pm
newyorker wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:16 pm
Marseille07 wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:15 pm
newyorker wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:13 pm Seems like market is the way to go. I looked into other options like real estates but unless i am the end user... (ex owning building for my own business or my home) it doesnt make great sense... over vfiax then chill.
Yes. Let's keep doing your 2k/day DCA :beer
Yep seems like thats the way to go. Haha i see you so often!

Do you have some cash on the sideway in case of pullback?
I'm not waiting for a major pullback, but I do have some money from selling a property.
Time in the market is key! Market timing has been proven to not work. I like your plan.

Tony
John C. Bogle: “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."
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Re: I cant find anything better than S&P

Post by Marseille07 »

abuss368 wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:33 pm
Marseille07 wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:19 pm
newyorker wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:16 pm
Marseille07 wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:15 pm
newyorker wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:13 pm Seems like market is the way to go. I looked into other options like real estates but unless i am the end user... (ex owning building for my own business or my home) it doesnt make great sense... over vfiax then chill.
Yes. Let's keep doing your 2k/day DCA :beer
Yep seems like thats the way to go. Haha i see you so often!

Do you have some cash on the sideway in case of pullback?
I'm not waiting for a major pullback, but I do have some money from selling a property.
Time in the market is key! Market timing has been proven to not work. I like your plan.

Tony
Yes. Time in the market is more important than timing the market.
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Re: I cant find anything better than S&P

Post by abuss368 »

Marseille07 wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:34 pm
abuss368 wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:33 pm
Marseille07 wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:19 pm
newyorker wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:16 pm
Marseille07 wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:15 pm

Yes. Let's keep doing your 2k/day DCA :beer
Yep seems like thats the way to go. Haha i see you so often!

Do you have some cash on the sideway in case of pullback?
I'm not waiting for a major pullback, but I do have some money from selling a property.
Time in the market is key! Market timing has been proven to not work. I like your plan.

Tony
Yes. Time in the market is more important than timing the market.
Well said.
Tony
John C. Bogle: “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."
Johm221122
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Re: I cant find anything better than S&P

Post by Johm221122 »

newyorker wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:49 pm Just putting money in S&P is what I am doing.

I tried to look into buying real estate

Buying individual stocks and etc.

But everything seems like a lot of hassle and more risk than just cruising with DCA into the market.

Do you guys have any other suggestion where to put money?
You failed to mention time horizon or goal. You also failed to mention if your using retirement accounts, if it's for retirement.
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newyorker
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Re: I cant find anything better than S&P

Post by newyorker »

Johm221122 wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:22 pm
newyorker wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:49 pm Just putting money in S&P is what I am doing.

I tried to look into buying real estate

Buying individual stocks and etc.

But everything seems like a lot of hassle and more risk than just cruising with DCA into the market.

Do you guys have any other suggestion where to put money?
You failed to mention time horizon or goal. You also failed to mention if your using retirement accounts, if it's for retirement.
I dont really have a goal. And no retirement account...
Johm221122
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Re: I cant find anything better than S&P

Post by Johm221122 »

newyorker wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:01 pm
Johm221122 wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:22 pm
newyorker wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:49 pm Just putting money in S&P is what I am doing.

I tried to look into buying real estate

Buying individual stocks and etc.

But everything seems like a lot of hassle and more risk than just cruising with DCA into the market.

Do you guys have any other suggestion where to put money?
You failed to mention time horizon or goal. You also failed to mention if your using retirement accounts, if it's for retirement.
I dont really have a goal. And no retirement account...
I think you should focus on Creating an investment plan and taking advantage of retirement accounts.
Try looking at
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Boglehe ... philosophy
7eight9
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Re: I cant find anything better than S&P

Post by 7eight9 »

hi_there wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:42 am Any of these other indexes is just substantially similar to SPX. Even the leveraged version is merely a way to scale the same underlying investment. But anyway, I think the fact that few real alternatives have been suggested just demonstrates how efficiently risk can be transferred to investors through equity markets nowadays.

With that being said, I would propose that interesting investment alternatives start to arise as your net worth increases to quite high levels, and your investor network becomes very developed. I suspect that Peter Thiel and similar people are able to "beat" the SPX due to insider investment connections to VC and PE. You'll also have more freedom to make speculative bets if your net worth is very high.

If you are rich, you can also afford to speculate on alternative investments like art, wine, or rights to songs and films, even if it is more of a hobby.
+1

If memory serves correct there was a figure in the news circa 2012 whose IRA was around $20-100MM give or take. Based on contribution limits I'm pretty sure they didn't get there by investing in the SPX.
I guess it all could be much worse. | They could be warming up my hearse.
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watchnerd
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Re: I cant find anything better than S&P

Post by watchnerd »

7eight9 wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:37 pm
hi_there wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:42 am Any of these other indexes is just substantially similar to SPX. Even the leveraged version is merely a way to scale the same underlying investment. But anyway, I think the fact that few real alternatives have been suggested just demonstrates how efficiently risk can be transferred to investors through equity markets nowadays.

With that being said, I would propose that interesting investment alternatives start to arise as your net worth increases to quite high levels, and your investor network becomes very developed. I suspect that Peter Thiel and similar people are able to "beat" the SPX due to insider investment connections to VC and PE. You'll also have more freedom to make speculative bets if your net worth is very high.

If you are rich, you can also afford to speculate on alternative investments like art, wine, or rights to songs and films, even if it is more of a hobby.
+1

If memory serves correct there was a figure in the news circa 2012 whose IRA was around $20-100MM give or take. Based on contribution limits I'm pretty sure they didn't get there by investing in the SPX.
Public markets are for cheap beta and liquidity.

Alpha is best generated elsewhere.
Global stocks, IG/HY bonds, gold & digital assets at market weights 75% / 19% / 6% || LMP: TIPS ladder
jeffh19
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Re: I cant find anything better than S&P

Post by jeffh19 »

I’m doing basically all VTI, and some into Bitcoin. I wouldn’t touch any other Crypto for several reasons.

I don’t know what the answer is, but I also feel like that going forward, we might be better off really emphasizing investing in the top say 10-25 companies....but I don’t know how to do that, maybe VTI with some VUG and/or VTI and buy some single stocks of the companies you believe in the most long term...idk

I’m also an idiot so who knows.
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watchnerd
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Re: I cant find anything better than S&P

Post by watchnerd »

jeffh19 wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 12:23 am I’m doing basically all VTI, and some into Bitcoin. I wouldn’t touch any other Crypto for several reasons.

I don’t know what the answer is, but I also feel like that going forward, we might be better off really emphasizing investing in the top say 10-25 companies....but I don’t know how to do that, maybe VTI with some VUG and/or VTI and buy some single stocks of the companies you believe in the most long term...idk

I’m also an idiot so who knows.
The correlation between the top 10-25 companies, by market cap, and VTI is going to be large.

As for how...just look at the top stocks in VTI and buy them as individual stocks.

https://investor.vanguard.com/etf/profi ... o-holdings

But I don't see a major advantage in doing so if you already own VTI.
Global stocks, IG/HY bonds, gold & digital assets at market weights 75% / 19% / 6% || LMP: TIPS ladder
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newyorker
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Re: I cant find anything better than S&P

Post by newyorker »

watchnerd wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:35 pm
7eight9 wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:37 pm
hi_there wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:42 am Any of these other indexes is just substantially similar to SPX. Even the leveraged version is merely a way to scale the same underlying investment. But anyway, I think the fact that few real alternatives have been suggested just demonstrates how efficiently risk can be transferred to investors through equity markets nowadays.

With that being said, I would propose that interesting investment alternatives start to arise as your net worth increases to quite high levels, and your investor network becomes very developed. I suspect that Peter Thiel and similar people are able to "beat" the SPX due to insider investment connections to VC and PE. You'll also have more freedom to make speculative bets if your net worth is very high.

If you are rich, you can also afford to speculate on alternative investments like art, wine, or rights to songs and films, even if it is more of a hobby.
+1

If memory serves correct there was a figure in the news circa 2012 whose IRA was around $20-100MM give or take. Based on contribution limits I'm pretty sure they didn't get there by investing in the SPX.
Public markets are for cheap beta and liquidity.

Alpha is best generated elsewhere.


What does alpha and beta even mean?

Seems like commoners like myself cant even join alpha.
bds3
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Re: I cant find anything better than S&P

Post by bds3 »

tiburblium wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:43 am Total US and total ex-us (VTI, VXUS)
Deleted for my error.
Last edited by bds3 on Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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ruralavalon
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Re: I cant find anything better than S&P

Post by ruralavalon »

newyorker wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:01 pm
Johm221122 wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:22 pm
newyorker wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:49 pm Just putting money in S&P is what I am doing.

I tried to look into buying real estate

Buying individual stocks and etc.

But everything seems like a lot of hassle and more risk than just cruising with DCA into the market.

Do you guys have any other suggestion where to put money?
You failed to mention time horizon or goal. You also failed to mention if your using retirement accounts, if it's for retirement.
I dont really have a goal. And no retirement account...
I think it's a mistake not to use available tax-advantaged accounts, like IRAs or a 401k. Wiki article "Prioritizing Investments", link.

Your original question was "Do you guys have any other suggestion where to put money?"

More details would be useful. Do you have any debt and if so what types, amounts and interest rates? What is your tax bracket, both federal and state? What is your age? Is there a plan offered at your job like a 401k, 403b, 457b TSP, etc? If so is there an employer match offered, and what is the match? What funds are offered in your employer's plan? Please give fund names, tickers and expense ratios.

Please see this for information needed and format: Asking Portfolio Questions..

Please simply add this to your original post using the edit button (the pencil icon near the upper right corner of your post), it helps a lot if all of your information is in one place.
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dratkinson
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Re: I cant find anything better than S&P

Post by dratkinson »

abuss368 wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 2:53 pm
whereskyle wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:11 am
newyorker wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:49 pm Just putting money in S&P is what I am doing.

I tried to look into buying real estate

Buying individual stocks and etc.

But everything seems like a lot of hassle and more risk than just cruising with DCA into the market.

Do you guys have any other suggestion where to put money?
Just doing this is a fantastic idea. I prefer VTSAX (total market), but an SP 500 index fund is a beautiful thing.
Over the long term, the difference between Total Stock and S&P 500 is a rounding error. Either fund is an excellent choice for including in a portfolio.

Tony
If you're happy with TSM and S&P500, can split the difference and add LC (VLCAX). Use one in tax-advantaged accounts to avoid TLH problems, and use the other two as TLH partners.

Using investor shares for longer timeframe, see: https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/bac ... ion3_3=100


jeffh19 wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 12:23 am
I don’t know what the answer is, but I also feel like that going forward, we might be better off really emphasizing investing in the top say 10-25 companies....but I don’t know how to do that, ...
Investing in the Dow Nifty 50 idea proved to be flawed, so would expect an investment in fewer companies to be equally disappointing. Probably better to stay closer to "total market" for ease of management, and less regret from market tracking error.

See: https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answer ... fty-50.asp
d.r.a., not dr.a. | I'm a novice investor; you are forewarned.
radR investing
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Re: I cant find anything better than S&P

Post by radR investing »

jeffh19 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 12:23 am

I don’t know what the answer is, but I also feel like that going forward, we might be better off really emphasizing investing in the top say 10-25 companies....but I don’t know how to do that
There is a methodology that does just this...it is called "Direct Indexing." If you are interested in learning about that, here is a link that does a good job of explaining it (a blog post on the main page):

investblaze.com
ZWorkLess
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Re: I cant find anything better than S&P

Post by ZWorkLess »

You could consider Total Stock Market. Simple is good. S&P is just fine, IMHO.
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Taylor Larimore
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Re: I cant find anything better than S&P

Post by Taylor Larimore »

newyorker wrote: I can't find anything better than S&P"
I am not surprised. It is hard to beat 500 of the largest and most successful companies in the United States.

Best wishes.
Taylor
Jack Bogle's Words of Wisdom: "Deep down, I remain absolutely confident that the vast majority of American families would be well served by owning their equity holding in a Standard & Poor's 500 Index fund (or a total stock market index fund) and holding their bonds in a total bond market index fund."
"Simplicity is the master key to financial success." -- Jack Bogle
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abuss368
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Re: I cant find anything better than S&P

Post by abuss368 »

anon_investor wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:59 pm My vote: Total US Stock Market Index and chill.
I love this advice.
John C. Bogle: “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."
bugleheadd
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Re: I cant find anything better than S&P

Post by bugleheadd »

SPX calls

Wish I didn't sell my Spx 5000 calls a few months ago. Would be up like 200% now
Mako52
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Re: I cant find anything better than S&P

Post by Mako52 »

All the hand wringing over whether VOO gives you enough broad market exposure inspired me to Backtest comparison 3 portfolios:

100% VOO
100% VTI
50% VOO / 50% VBK (small cap growth)

The results are virtually identical.....the min/max final balance of the 3 portfolios is within 2%

https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/bac ... tion4_3=50
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