Personal Capital pressures

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Topic Author
bbradb
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:15 pm

Personal Capital pressures

Post by bbradb »

Recently decided to utilize Personal Capital site to log my assets, etc. After a few months, I'm not so sure it is that useful. OK great, so I'm a "Millionaire", isn't everyone else? Beyond that, I don't really see much value in it. What do others feel?

He's my current dilemma however. As expected, I have received the usual phone pitches to sign up with their service. And, GULP, after several such calls, their latest is a "Free six months of service" and I bit after a rather compelling sales effort. So, as of last Friday, I agreed to their offer and already signed some of the paperwork, however, not enough apparently that they can start moving funds. I see I have more emails today to DocuSign, which I haven't done as I now have cold feet about the move. I guess I'm thinking I can just refuse any more signatures and after an ugly phone call, they will go away.

I have around $800,000 plus in Vanguard funds like VBTLX, BND, VBIAX, VTI, VO, VWIAX, VXUS. With regard to Personal Capital, I guess my thinking was, OK, let's see what they can do with my money. Six months seems a reasonable timeframe to show something. However, beyond that, I can't ever even imagine that I would continue using them to the tune of a $600 plus per month fee. I really like my lazy portfolio approach and cannot ever see myself any more hands-on than that.

Any thoughts on the usefulness of this move? Should I let them run the show for 6 months or tell them to forget about it! What might the benefits be? I am already aggravated that I will need to redo my RMD automatic withdrawals. Not to mention having to put everything back in place at Vanguard in 6 months.

My current strategy at the age of 77 and still sort of working a bit, is to only pull out the RMD each year. The rest I leave alone at a 50/50 allocation.

Thanks for reading.
okrylan
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Re: Personal Capital pressures

Post by okrylan »

I understand the appeal of free 6 months but the tax implications of changing assets to their mixes will probably cost you more than a 6 month fee. What exactly are they providing you ?
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retired@50
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Re: Personal Capital pressures

Post by retired@50 »

bbradb wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 2:23 pm
Any thoughts on the usefulness of this move? Should I let them run the show for 6 months or tell them to forget about it! What might the benefits be? I am already aggravated that I will need to redo my RMD automatic withdrawals. Not to mention having to put everything back in place at Vanguard in 6 months.
In my opinion, this move has zero usefulness. It's mainly a huge disruption. Further, I don't think 6 months is a long enough time period to prove anything.

I'd tell them to forget about it. Tell them you got cold feet and don't want to proceed.

Regards,
If liberty means anything at all it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear. -George Orwell
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bottlecap
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Re: Personal Capital pressures

Post by bottlecap »

Personal capital juices their projected returns by taking more risk. They just do a really good job of hiding that, even to a trained eye.

I'd stop the process if you are happy with what you're doing. Otherwise you will pay them to take more risk for you at the age of 77, no less.

JT
Topic Author
bbradb
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Re: Personal Capital pressures

Post by bbradb »

Thank you both for affirming my current thinking.
Explorer
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Re: Personal Capital pressures

Post by Explorer »

Stay away from Personal Capital!
mushripu
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Re: Personal Capital pressures

Post by mushripu »

The personal capital people kept messaging me to set up conplimentray call with personal advisor. I have just ignored all their messages in app and emails. No one has called me but I never pick up phone from numbers i do not know.
I cannot say no to people when talking to them .
Find it very hard to do.
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Wiggums
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Re: Personal Capital pressures

Post by Wiggums »

I would not move the money for a six month trial. It’s not fair to anyone involved. Your current investment strategy is great. No need to fix something that ain’t broke! Sorry personal capital, Brad is staying with the Bogleheads!
"I started with nothing and I still have most of it left."
FoolMeOnce
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Re: Personal Capital pressures

Post by FoolMeOnce »

okrylan wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 2:27 pm I understand the appeal of free 6 months but the tax implications of changing assets to their mixes will probably cost you more than a 6 month fee. What exactly are they providing you ?
And taxes on the way back to vanguard funds after six months (and having to offload ~100 individual securities). Unless you get lucky and the market tanks!
NativeTxn
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Re: Personal Capital pressures

Post by NativeTxn »

I use Personal Capital to aggregate information and play around with some numbers/scenarios, but that is all.

I agree with others that even 6 months is far too short a period to offer a valid comparison between their strategies and yours. I would argue you need a minimum of 2-3 years to get a decent comparison, and in reality, I think you can make the argument that you can't get a truly in depth comparison between strategies until you've gone through at least a portion of a bear and bull market.

Ex: "Their" strategy might look great and outpace yours for the next few years if we stay in a bull market because they're heavier equity, or they're in smaller cap which might perform better over that time, or something along those lines. However it might give up all of the difference in the first 6 months of a bear market and then lag through the bear market.

At the end of the day, if it was me, I'd probably just tell them "thanks, but nevermind" and keep things the way you have them.
MittensMoney
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Re: Personal Capital pressures

Post by MittensMoney »

My mother-in-law hired Personal Capital two years ago and has been really happy, but she knew next to nothing about personal finance and was about to (and since then, has) retire so the financial planning services were highly beneficial to her. For someone like yourself who only intends to use the service for 6 months I'd think tax implications alone would make it a non-starter, and if you're already successfully driving your own portfolio & have no need for financial planning from their advisor I don't really understand the impetus behind moving forward. Do them a favor and drop out.
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NewMoneyMustBeSmart
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Re: Personal Capital pressures

Post by NewMoneyMustBeSmart »

MittensMoney wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 6:07 pm My mother-in-law hired Personal Capital two years ago and has been really happy, but she knew next to nothing about personal finance and was about to (and since then, has) retire so the financial planning services were highly beneficial to her. For someone like yourself who only intends to use the service for 6 months I'd think tax implications alone would make it a non-starter, and if you're already successfully driving your own portfolio & have no need for financial planning from their advisor I don't really understand the impetus behind moving forward. Do them a favor and drop out.
Can you give us an anecdote about that? My perception is they make the portfolio much more complex with their tax harvesting, but I don't know if that's true.
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Topic Author
bbradb
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Re: Personal Capital pressures

Post by bbradb »

I have gracefully backed out after a pleasant conversation with an advisor. I did not discuss my reasons and won't. Will I continue to use PC? Not sure but for sure I will ignore any phone calls or emails. Thanks all for the excellent advice.
Doctor Rhythm
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Re: Personal Capital pressures

Post by Doctor Rhythm »

Sounds like a good move. If you’re using index funds, the only way they can improve returns is by increasing your stock allocation and hence your risk. You can do that yourself in less time than it takes to drink a cup of coffee, and save the $600.

I haven’t used Personal Capital myself, so no experience with them. If your portfolio is held at Vanguard (guessing this since you only list Vanguard’s funds), what does PC tell you that VG’s site doesn’t?
Hugh Prolly-Wright
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Re: Personal Capital pressures

Post by Hugh Prolly-Wright »

Exactly my thought. I too considered moving a couple years ago. It was the tax loss harvesting that drew me, but the hit I would take in liquidating what is 20+ years sticky at Vanguard made me put the brakes on it. I think the dashboard is useful in consolidating work 401k, non-qualified, etc. but I don't think the strategy is all that compelling. I have learned to screen the calls.
okrylan wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 2:27 pm I understand the appeal of free 6 months but the tax implications of changing assets to their mixes will probably cost you more than a 6 month fee. What exactly are they providing you ?
deltaneutral83
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Re: Personal Capital pressures

Post by deltaneutral83 »

Take your phone number out of the field or enter in all 0's. They won't call.
UpperNwGuy
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Re: Personal Capital pressures

Post by UpperNwGuy »

This is why I use a Numbers spreadsheet to track my holdings. Nobody at Apple ever calls me up and offers to manage my portfolio for me.
MittensMoney
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Re: Personal Capital pressures

Post by MittensMoney »

NewMoneyMustBeSmart wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 6:29 pm
MittensMoney wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 6:07 pm My mother-in-law hired Personal Capital two years ago and has been really happy, but she knew next to nothing about personal finance and was about to (and since then, has) retire so the financial planning services were highly beneficial to her. For someone like yourself who only intends to use the service for 6 months I'd think tax implications alone would make it a non-starter, and if you're already successfully driving your own portfolio & have no need for financial planning from their advisor I don't really understand the impetus behind moving forward. Do them a favor and drop out.
Can you give us an anecdote about that? My perception is they make the portfolio much more complex with their tax harvesting, but I don't know if that's true.
Well, for tax implications you'll be facing a taxable event when you sell your holdings to implement their strategy. And then if you want to reverse what they've done 6 months later, it's another taxable event. Their portfolio holdings are going to look A LOT different than a 3-fund - they're essentially looking to recreate an ETF/index using individual stocks - on aggregate the portfolio would perform about the same as the rest of the market but it does create a lot more opportunity to tax loss harvest, but obviously it's far more work than a DIY investor would want to put in.
GaryA505
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Re: Personal Capital pressures

Post by GaryA505 »

$600/month?

Somebody call 911, I think I'm having a heart attack.
Get most of it right and don't make any big mistakes. All else being equal, simpler is better. Simple is as simple does.
MishkaWorries
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Re: Personal Capital pressures

Post by MishkaWorries »

GaryA505 wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 5:14 pm $600/month?

Somebody call 911, I think I'm having a heart attack.
Ha!

I was thinking theft in progress.
We plan. G-d laughs.
Oreamnos
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Re: Personal Capital pressures

Post by Oreamnos »

I'm always amazed to hear claims of "pressure" from Personal Capital. I've used them for tracking things since about the time they started. Maybe once or twice a year I receive a call asking if I'm interested in their other services. Usually they just leave a voicemail and don't call back. Sometimes I pick up the call, and within 60 seconds I've told them "No", and they politely say "OK. Thank you. Call us if you change your mind."
dallasjava
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Re: Personal Capital pressures

Post by dallasjava »

UpperNwGuy wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 12:52 pm This is why I use a Numbers spreadsheet to track my holdings. Nobody at Apple ever calls me up and offers to manage my portfolio for me.
Can you share your file a template?
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retired@50
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Re: Personal Capital pressures

Post by retired@50 »

UpperNwGuy wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 12:52 pm This is why I use a Numbers spreadsheet to track my holdings. Nobody at Apple ever calls me up and offers to manage my portfolio for me.
True enough... But, the question is, because you're using Numbers, does Apple know what you hold? :shock:

I sure hope not.

Regards,
If liberty means anything at all it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear. -George Orwell
Orange_Philosophy
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Re: Personal Capital pressures

Post by Orange_Philosophy »

I went down this same road... started setting up a tracker since the "service" they provide was so highly rated. I got bombarded with phone calls to talk to a personal advisor. So I bit. Full proposal is a hybrid real person/robo-advisor portfolio. In examining the funds they use (you can get it from their site), it's easy enough to replicate their process on your without coughing up 1% of your portfolio.

From here you can see how they break down their portfolios to compare to benchmarks using domestic and international equities, domestic and international bonds, and a small portion of commodities. I'm pretty sure the lazy portfolios found here are quite similar and nature and don't involve paying 1% for someone to manage them. I finally told them to stop calling me and closed my online account so they would stop bugging me.

https://www.personalcapital.com/wealth- ... erformance
Orange_Philosophy
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Re: Personal Capital pressures

Post by Orange_Philosophy »

Oreamnos wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 12:54 am I'm always amazed to hear claims of "pressure" from Personal Capital. I've used them for tracking things since about the time they started. Maybe once or twice a year I receive a call asking if I'm interested in their other services. Usually they just leave a voicemail and don't call back. Sometimes I pick up the call, and within 60 seconds I've told them "No", and they politely say "OK. Thank you. Call us if you change your mind."
For some reason I attracted their attention. No less than 1-2 calls a week for me.
lws
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Re: Personal Capital pressures

Post by lws »

Forget it. Do not waste your time.
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danielrhall
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Re: Personal Capital pressures

Post by danielrhall »

Orange_Philosophy wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 2:12 pm
Oreamnos wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 12:54 am I'm always amazed to hear claims of "pressure" from Personal Capital. I've used them for tracking things since about the time they started. Maybe once or twice a year I receive a call asking if I'm interested in their other services. Usually they just leave a voicemail and don't call back. Sometimes I pick up the call, and within 60 seconds I've told them "No", and they politely say "OK. Thank you. Call us if you change your mind."
For some reason I attracted their attention. No less than 1-2 calls a week for me.
That's too bad. My experience is more like Oreamnos'. When I first started using their site several years ago, and got a popup message asking me to make an appointment with one of their advisors, I put some ridiculously future date for my appointment. Eventually I got a call from them asking me about it, and I told them I didn't want to use their advisory service but I liked their web tools. They've never called me since.
Last edited by danielrhall on Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
UpperNwGuy
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Re: Personal Capital pressures

Post by UpperNwGuy »

retired@50 wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:39 pm
UpperNwGuy wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 12:52 pm This is why I use a Numbers spreadsheet to track my holdings. Nobody at Apple ever calls me up and offers to manage my portfolio for me.
True enough... But, the question is, because you're using Numbers, does Apple know what you hold? :shock:

I sure hope not.

Regards,
I don't care if they know. They don't call me and offer to manage my portfolio. The only way they would know is if they looked at the files I store in the iCloud.
UpperNwGuy
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Re: Personal Capital pressures

Post by UpperNwGuy »

dallasjava wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:21 pm
UpperNwGuy wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 12:52 pm This is why I use a Numbers spreadsheet to track my holdings. Nobody at Apple ever calls me up and offers to manage my portfolio for me.
Can you share your file a template?
The spreadsheet is not fancy. The first column is the date. The second through the sixth columns are each of the five funds that I hold. The next few columns are total stock holding, total bond holdings, and total portfolio. The next few columns are gains/losses by brokerage and a total for that. The final columns are the percentages of the total portfolio that is stock and the percentage that is bonds. That's where I see if I need to rebalance.
GardenRetirement
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Re: Personal Capital pressures

Post by GardenRetirement »

I had an hour long "strategy" session, was offered 4 months free to move my Vanguard accounts to Personal Capital. When I balked at the monthly cost after the 4 months trial period, I was assured that I would earn more than the cost. The presentation focus was the problem with Indexes is the market capitalization and that index performance is based on the top performers who are likely to pull the index down during the next bubble burst. This is so contrary to my years of learning from the Bogleheads board that it left my head spinning! If market capitalization is so bad, then why do so many indexes use it? :confused
pedalman701
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Re: Personal Capital pressures

Post by pedalman701 »

FoolMeOnce wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 3:32 pm
okrylan wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 2:27 pm I understand the appeal of free 6 months but the tax implications of changing assets to their mixes will probably cost you more than a 6 month fee. What exactly are they providing you ?
And taxes on the way back to vanguard funds after six months (and having to offload ~100 individual securities). Unless you get lucky and the market tanks!
Indeed. At least EJ only had me in 18-20 different securities when I was with them.

I prefer the idea of reducing complexity and costs. I can control those factors.
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Nummerkins
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Re: Personal Capital pressures

Post by Nummerkins »

Cancel the meeting. It's your money, not theirs. Say no.
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calmaniac
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Re: Personal Capital pressures

Post by calmaniac »

bbradb wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 2:23 pm Six months seems a reasonable timeframe to show something.
Really? I would think that after 6 years you might see "something", but 6 months is too soon to give you any sense if their approach pays off.
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H-Town
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Re: Personal Capital pressures

Post by H-Town »

bbradb wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 12:21 pm I have gracefully backed out after a pleasant conversation with an advisor. I did not discuss my reasons and won't. Will I continue to use PC? Not sure but for sure I will ignore any phone calls or emails. Thanks all for the excellent advice.
I don’t remember when I started using voicemail to screen the calls. But I know for sure I’m a lot happier doing that.
Time is the ultimate currency.
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ThereAreNoGurus
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Re: Personal Capital pressures

Post by ThereAreNoGurus »

Some great responses on this thread.

Glad to see OP took that advice and declined.

I like using PC for expense tracking versus income. For me it has a better interface than Mint, and Fidelity's Full View, but PC has trouble retrieving transactions from one of my banks, so I have pretty much stopped using it.

I used to get calls once in a while, but I don't have any assets displayed and either removed my phone# from the profile, blocked their number or they gave up calling (it was infrequent anyways).
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traveling_salesman
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Re: Personal Capital pressures

Post by traveling_salesman »

PC is pitched to its investors as an inexpensive source of leads for financial advisers. I don’t think you want to be that inexpensive lead :)
skeptical1
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Re: Personal Capital pressures

Post by skeptical1 »

I signed up for PC's aggregation services a few months ago and appreciate the big picture view I get as a result. I like seeing my sector allocation, net worth, retirement projections, and expense analysis. I run my investments, checking, and credit accounts through it and plan to use this free service indefinitely.

Initially, I had three discussions with a knowledgeable and polite Rep. The first was about 20 minutes to familiarize me with PC's approach, in broad terms, and discuss my situation. The second call was also about 20 minutes as he walked me through PC's assessment of my portfolio and made recommendations about what PC would do.The third call lasted about 5 minutes when I explained that its approach was of no interest to me for three reasons:

1. Active management is counter to everything I have learned in the past few decades. PC recommends equal investment in 10 sectors with 10 stocks in each sector...100 actively managed stocks!
2. Complexity in general as well as the transition in and any future transition out of PC's management
3. Expense... .79% fee or something like that

I recently received the same 6-month "teaser" the OP got via email. I replied that I would never have interest in signing up for their management services but appreciated the aggregation services.

I have no problem with PC to date. I certainly did not feel pressured to do anything. They have a job to do: sell. I have a job to do: decide what's best for me. I find it easy to say no thanks. I recommend its free service but would never recommend its financial management services.
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birdog
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Re: Personal Capital pressures

Post by birdog »

I went to Profile & Settings and changed my phone number to a fake #. I haven't received a phone call since then. Weird.

I only use PC for their account aggregation and automatic expense tracking. It is starting to have so many errors, though, that I'm thinking of cancelling my account there altogether.
Vanguard User
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Re: Personal Capital pressures

Post by Vanguard User »

I like the free features of the app.
RichK
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Re: Personal Capital pressures

Post by RichK »

I've been using PC to aggregate all of my cash and investment accounts and at this point am phasing out Quicken (even though there are a couple of features in Quicken that are a bit better). I like being able to see every transaction across all of my accounts on a daily basis, plus a host of other features.

I did have a conversation with PC early on as a courtesy. It seemed their pitch was that segments of the market (and I suppose the underlying equities) that were doing well were "more popular" and, hence, overpriced. They would fix this by equalizing market segments Sounds sort of like a RAFI approach to me and I'm not interested in contrarian investing. The call was polite. Since then, they have called several times, but I just don't answer so it's no big deal.
Gadget
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Re: Personal Capital pressures

Post by Gadget »

I just told PC that I was interested in doing investing myself and just wanted to use their aggregation service. I think I asked to be taken off their phone call list. They took me off their list and haven't called me since.
LeftCoastIV
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Re: Personal Capital pressures

Post by LeftCoastIV »

birdog wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 10:55 am I went to Profile & Settings and changed my phone number to a fake #. I haven't received a phone call since then. Weird.

I only use PC for their account aggregation and automatic expense tracking. It is starting to have so many errors, though, that I'm thinking of cancelling my account there altogether.
I would think that would break the multi-factor authentication, assuming you use SMS for MFA
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birdog
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Re: Personal Capital pressures

Post by birdog »

LeftCoastIV wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:51 am
birdog wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 10:55 am I went to Profile & Settings and changed my phone number to a fake #. I haven't received a phone call since then. Weird.

I only use PC for their account aggregation and automatic expense tracking. It is starting to have so many errors, though, that I'm thinking of cancelling my account there altogether.
I would think that would break the multi-factor authentication, assuming you use SMS for MFA
I only have MFA enabled at PC for new devices. Since I only ever log in from my home computer I don't need a valid phone # on file.
RXfiles
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Re: Personal Capital pressures

Post by RXfiles »

I use the app bc it seems like the best catch all for looking at your finances real quick. I just ignore everything they've ever sent me. I think the emails go into my spam folder and I don't answer calls unless I know.
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Raspberry-503
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Re: Personal Capital pressures

Post by Raspberry-503 »

I love tracking everything through their free tools. It lets me slice the data so many ways, per account, overall, etc..
I learned quite a bit about my underlying index funds by drilling through my portfolio (look ma! I have "alternatives" without even knowing it!).
I love tracking all my accounts in one spot, etc...

The problem with switching to them for 6 months is that it's a pain to get back out. They move your assets to their institutional only account, they have a "secret" basket of stocks you're likely going to want to get out of it you decide to go on your own after 6 months. As some pointed out you'll likely incur taxable events selling out of your position and into theirs. They make everything look more complicated to make it sound like they provide a service.
HeelaMonster
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Re: Personal Capital pressures

Post by HeelaMonster »

RXfiles wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 9:57 am I use the app bc it seems like the best catch all for looking at your finances real quick. I just ignore everything they've ever sent me. I think the emails go into my spam folder and I don't answer calls unless I know.
Ditto. I like their tracking just fine, but have never talked (or wanted to talk...) to an advisor.
Ostentatious
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Re: Personal Capital pressures

Post by Ostentatious »

Recently received an offer from PC for $200 gift card for speaking with an advisor. I met the advisor twice but I never signed up for the service. Well, I never received the $200 gift card and the advisor didn’t return my emails. In any case I will never sign up for their devices for any reason. There cannot do better than Vanguard, Fidelity or Schwab.
lgb
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Re: Personal Capital pressures

Post by lgb »

I've used them free setting up manual investment accounts just so that I could have a cohesive global view of all investments across various brokerage firms and employment places over the years. They call every once in awhile (few to several months) - clearly just on their tickler to check on because I must have clicked on something on their site, or as just a general follow-up on accounts. Never catch me live on the phone and their efforts consist of just 1 call. Pretty weak from a sales perspetive. Typical sales person job churn as it is a different person each time. Pretty normal stuff. Did consider using early on for accounts I didn't want to oversee. Instead just went with 3-fund approach and accomplishing what I want essentially without having to do that. However their checkup tool on expense fee's was very valuable because it allowed a global view of all investments and their expense fee's vs. the actual brokerage of each of the various firms and they bury that type of information and this calculates it as to what you're actually paying (also buried/hidden/glossed over usually it seems)

Only wish it allowed a longer date range (entire length) of viewing gains/losses instead of 'Last Year', '1 Year'...since of course they have the data..but whatever. Useful site, one the most useful I use. (for free)
Henryk
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Re: Personal Capital pressures

Post by Henryk »

Newbie for Bogleheads here. I am looking for a safe and reliable portfolio aggregation service since I have a few accounts (Schwab/Merrill/Fidelity). By reading above, it seems to be that PC is good for this purpose? Any other recommendations? I'll be only interested to see my investments on one place and see allocation/exposure etc. Thanks!
Rwhp042
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Re: Personal Capital pressures

Post by Rwhp042 »

Oreamnos wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 12:54 am I'm always amazed to hear claims of "pressure" from Personal Capital. I've used them for tracking things since about the time they started. Maybe once or twice a year I receive a call asking if I'm interested in their other services. Usually they just leave a voicemail and don't call back. Sometimes I pick up the call, and within 60 seconds I've told them "No", and they politely say "OK. Thank you. Call us if you change your mind."
Same here, they provide a pretty cool product for free so I don't mind a few product pitches. I don't use their advisor services, but do rely heavily on the software for an overall view of net worth. Nothing else like it that I know of.
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