Pralana Gold

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calliecake47
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Pralana Gold

Post by calliecake47 »

I saw a couple posts mention this retirement tool. We have used RPM and iORP but looking for one more tool to validate our plan. I'm not interested in any tool that I have to work with on the web, which is why I find this one very interesting. After reading about it on their web page, it sounds like it is very robust. I don't mind paying the money, I just don't want to waste my time on it if people have found problems with it. I'm just wondering what experiences users have had, if any, with this tool?
Thanks!
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David Jay
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Re: Pralana Gold

Post by David Jay »

Well Callie, it looks like there isn’t a lot of experience here with that particular product. Sorry.
It's not an engineering problem - Hersh Shefrin | To get the "risk premium", you really do have to take the risk - nisiprius
TravelGeek
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Re: Pralana Gold

Post by TravelGeek »

There are actually a bunch of threads that mention it. I haven’t looked at them in detail, but became aware of the product just recently when it was discussed/mentioned and added it to my list of tools to look at when I find time. Kudos to the Pralana folks for picking a name that is easily searchable. :)
eor
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Re: Pralana Gold

Post by eor »

I purchased Pralana Gold in 2019 shortly after I retired. I wanted to use it to investigate different withdrawal options. It turned out that the withdrawal sequence did not make much of a difference in our case.

One thing I had trouble with was 529 plans. I never did figure out how to properly handle these. The 529 accounts were only a very small percentage of our assets so that I basically ignored them.

The calculator seemed complex to me. I guess that is because it has a lot of features and requires a lot of input. The 2019 manual is 146 pages. I referred to it frequently.

I don’t regret buying it but I have not renewed it since. I have also used their free Bronze version. It is much simpler to use and the price is right.
Kevin K
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Re: Pralana Gold

Post by Kevin K »

There's a ton of useful info on Pralana and how it compares to other paid and free retirement calculators on the "Can I Retire Yet?" site. Its founder, Darrow Kirkpatrick, has done more in-depth work with these things than anyone else I know of. He had a hand in developing Pralana Gold and is transparent about the affiliate relationship he's taken on with them but there's plenty of good unbiased info on other options that may be for you (as they are for me) more than sufficient:

https://www.caniretireyet.com/resources/
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beernutz
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Re: Pralana Gold

Post by beernutz »

calliecake47 wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:59 am I saw a couple posts mention this retirement tool. We have used RPM and iORP but looking for one more tool to validate our plan. I'm not interested in any tool that I have to work with on the web, which is why I find this one very interesting. After reading about it on their web page, it sounds like it is very robust. I don't mind paying the money, I just don't want to waste my time on it if people have found problems with it. I'm just wondering what experiences users have had, if any, with this tool?
Thanks!
I bought Pralana Gold 2020 late enough in 2020 to qualify for a free upgrade to the 2021 edition.

At the time I was considering retiring at 62 in 2021 and wanted a robust tool to do extensive what if analysis. I used several free ones including firecalc and iORP but I wanted more than what they offered.

My purchase decision came down to MaxiFi vs Pralana Gold and since the ChooseFi team are recommending Pralana I bought that one.

I could not be happier with my decision so far and I haven't even downloaded the 2021 version yet. There is a learning curve and the manual is almost 200 pages though a lot of that is screenshots but I was comfortable using the software in less than a week.

Pralana Gold has helped me have confidence that my retirement decision is the right one and also helped show this to my wife because we'd both be retired. Especially helpful is ability to run various Roth conversion what if scenarios.

The Pralana team has been very responsive to questions. I had an issue with something in the manual, fired off a quick email, and got a helpful reply that day from the president of the company.
AA: 38/43/19 - equities/positive return-zero volatility/bonds | DW retired 2019, I retired 2022, "it'll be fine"
Topic Author
calliecake47
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Re: Pralana Gold

Post by calliecake47 »

Thanks everyone!
Topic Author
calliecake47
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Re: Pralana Gold

Post by calliecake47 »

To eor and beernutz, since you've been using it...

Have you used the Roth conversion function and how do you feel it handles that part of it?
eor
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Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2015 7:38 pm

Re: Pralana Gold

Post by eor »

I did not investigate Roth conversions in Pralana Gold because I did in IORP. It showed that Roth conversions would only make a small difference in our disposable income and the total plan value. And my IRAs are subject to the pro rata rule. So we are not planning on any conversions.
superbobbyg
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Re: Pralana Gold

Post by superbobbyg »

I have purchased Pralana Gold since its inception and upgrade each year. It is an extremely comprehensive tool and you will spend considerable time with the manual to use the tool to its fullest. Stuart, the founder, is very responsive to emails. Just out of curiosity, I have a mechanical engineering degree and MBA-so a bit of education.

As to Roth analyses, I had some difficulty maneuvering the inputs. Sent Stuart my file and he promptly found my error and ran the analysis for me and exported back. I am still trying to decide if conversions are right for me; seems like the positive results take off after a number of years into retirement.

Overall, it is a comprehensive retirement tool that is much more detailed than other tools. Just be prepared to spend time with it.
Topic Author
calliecake47
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Re: Pralana Gold

Post by calliecake47 »

superbobbyg wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 10:40 am I have purchased Pralana Gold since its inception and upgrade each year. It is an extremely comprehensive tool and you will spend considerable time with the manual to use the tool to its fullest. Stuart, the founder, is very responsive to emails. Just out of curiosity, I have a mechanical engineering degree and MBA-so a bit of education.

As to Roth analyses, I had some difficulty maneuvering the inputs. Sent Stuart my file and he promptly found my error and ran the analysis for me and exported back. I am still trying to decide if conversions are right for me; seems like the positive results take off after a number of years into retirement.

Overall, it is a comprehensive retirement tool that is much more detailed than other tools. Just be prepared to spend time with it.
We're retired now, so I have plenty of time to spend on it. I was a math major in school and worked in manufacturing, but we owned our own business for the last 16 years, which necessitated me to become a semi-expert in many things like building maintenance and the computer systems, lol. I don't mind spending the time if it's worthwhile.
Topic Author
calliecake47
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Re: Pralana Gold

Post by calliecake47 »

eor wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 8:58 am I did not investigate Roth conversions in Pralana Gold because I did in IORP. It showed that Roth conversions would only make a small difference in our disposable income and the total plan value. And my IRAs are subject to the pro rata rule. So we are not planning on any conversions.
Thank you.
Naismith
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Re: Pralana Gold

Post by Naismith »

We bought it around 2016, about two years before we retired from our jobs. We have used it for Roth conversions and found that helpful.

I had been keeping our annual audit of asset allocation on Excel prior to that, so it was a logical move to use an Excel-based system.

It has handled changes like the Secure Act very well. It is great at playing out "what ifs" by adjusting the assumptions and comparing different options. Which is what makes it so complex.
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beernutz
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Re: Pralana Gold

Post by beernutz »

calliecake47 wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 7:34 am To eor and beernutz, since you've been using it...

Have you used the Roth conversion function and how do you feel it handles that part of it?
The Roth Conversion what if allows you to test various conversion options over a certain number of years starting at a particular year or by selecting conversions up to the top of each tax bracket over a selected number of years. For each combination of options it shows you the change in your net worth versus without the conversion and a breakeven chart of these net worths.

That is a little deceiving as the net worth shown without Roth conversions is pretax and the net worth with them is after tax. So for example if you have $1,000,000 in a tax deferred IRA, it is really not worth $1,000,000 because you are going to have to pay tax, possibly a lot of it, when you withdraw it. This would especially be the case if a RMD is received by a single filer because a spouse has passed as it is received as ordinary income whereas a post-conversion Roth IRA has already had its taxes paid.

I bring this up because the net worth breakevens shown for doing Roth conversions for me shown by Pralana were far in the future when I was in my mid 80s but they don't take into account that Roth money is worth more than tax deferred money.

I just looked and you can download the PRC Gold manual for either 2020 or 2021 here:
https://pralanaretirementcalculator.com/manuals/

The Roth what if section in it will likely provide a better explanation and screenshots of that feature than what I did above.
AA: 38/43/19 - equities/positive return-zero volatility/bonds | DW retired 2019, I retired 2022, "it'll be fine"
Topic Author
calliecake47
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Re: Pralana Gold

Post by calliecake47 »

Naismith wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:56 am We bought it around 2016, about two years before we retired from our jobs. We have used it for Roth conversions and found that helpful.

I had been keeping our annual audit of asset allocation on Excel prior to that, so it was a logical move to use an Excel-based system.

It has handled changes like the Secure Act very well. It is great at playing out "what ifs" by adjusting the assumptions and comparing different options. Which is what makes it so complex.
Thank you
Topic Author
calliecake47
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Re: Pralana Gold

Post by calliecake47 »

beernutz wrote: Mon Feb 01, 2021 11:20 am
calliecake47 wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 7:34 am To eor and beernutz, since you've been using it...

Have you used the Roth conversion function and how do you feel it handles that part of it?
The Roth Conversion what if allows you to test various conversion options over a certain number of years starting at a particular year or by selecting conversions up to the top of each tax bracket over a selected number of years. For each combination of options it shows you the change in your net worth versus without the conversion and a breakeven chart of these net worths.

That is a little deceiving as the net worth shown without Roth conversions is pretax and the net worth with them is after tax. So for example if you have $1,000,000 in a tax deferred IRA, it is really not worth $1,000,000 because you are going to have to pay tax, possibly a lot of it, when you withdraw it. This would especially be the case if a RMD is received by a single filer because a spouse has passed as it is received as ordinary income whereas a post-conversion Roth IRA has already had its taxes paid.

I bring this up because the net worth breakevens shown for doing Roth conversions for me shown by Pralana were far in the future when I was in my mid 80s but they don't take into account that Roth money is worth more than tax deferred money.

I just looked and you can download the PRC Gold manual for either 2020 or 2021 here:
https://pralanaretirementcalculator.com/manuals/

The Roth what if section in it will likely provide a better explanation and screenshots of that feature than what I did above.
Interesting, that's something that you just need to keep in mind I guess. And thank you.
Dinosaur Dad
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Re: Pralana Gold

Post by Dinosaur Dad »

I've been licensing Pralana Gold for two years.

I had been trying out a number of online calculators over time, but all fell short at some level...really felt like black box. I too found the reference to Pralana on the "Can I retire yet?" website, including Darrow Fitzpatrick's articles.

I had played with my own Excel spreadsheets for a long time, and what Pralana does is so far beyond what I could do on my own. It allows me to drill into the numbers and really see the impact of various paths I could choose (my particular decisions right now are around Roth conversions). I like how it lays everything out so you can look at the actual year-by-year projected impact.

No tool can predict the future, but I think this one really gives you a sense of how things could potentially play out and see the ranges of potential outcomes. Just helping you visualize potential outcomes helps with making decisions. Very comprehensive, allows all sorts of inputs like owning rental property, college tuitions, ACA payments, long term care - long list.

One thing to note: Pralana assumes that you have a basic level of Excel skills ... it's all based on an Excel platform. And by the way, you can download the "Bronze" level free version to get a sense of how everything works.

The only thing I can compare this to: I did a formal financial plan about 5 years ago with a fee-based planner who used EMoney Pro. She gave me access to the tool so I could play with assumptions and run scenario, and I thought that was really slick and comprehensive. But to my knowledge there's no way to get access to that unless you're working with a planner.

Of the online planners, the best one I found was New Retirement...but I do rate Pralana above it.
"Take calculated risks - that is quite different from being rash." | General George S. Patton
Tattarrattat
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Re: Pralana Gold

Post by Tattarrattat »

eor wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 8:58 am I did not investigate Roth conversions in Pralana Gold because I did in IORP. It showed that Roth conversions would only make a small difference in our disposable income and the total plan value. And my IRAs are subject to the pro rata rule. So we are not planning on any conversions.
Sorry, maybe I don't understand this. Isn't the pro-rata IRA rule a problem only for backdoor Roth's? Isn't it irrelevant for t-IRA to Roth conversions?
smitcat
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Re: Pralana Gold

Post by smitcat »

eor wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 8:58 am I did not investigate Roth conversions in Pralana Gold because I did in IORP. It showed that Roth conversions would only make a small difference in our disposable income and the total plan value. And my IRAs are subject to the pro rata rule. So we are not planning on any conversions.
FWIW - Roth conversions make a larger difference in our disposable income but if the Roth conversions only made a slightly positive disposable income difference in our baseline plan we would still do them for these reasons.
1. if we vary our baseline with one spouses demise coming earlier the Roths conversion value increases
2. if we get better than expected market returns and delay Roth spending the value increases
3. if we end up leaving funds to our heirs the after tax value to them is higher
YMMV
eor
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Re: Pralana Gold

Post by eor »

Tattarrattat wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 3:09 pm
eor wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 8:58 am I did not investigate Roth conversions in Pralana Gold because I did in IORP. It showed that Roth conversions would only make a small difference in our disposable income and the total plan value. And my IRAs are subject to the pro rata rule. So we are not planning on any conversions.
Sorry, maybe I don't understand this. Isn't the pro-rata IRA rule a problem only for backdoor Roth's? Isn't it irrelevant for t-IRA to Roth conversions?
Tattarrattat

I might be wrong but I thought if a Traditional IRA had both pre tax and post tax money, then the pro rata rule would apply to Roth conversions. My Traditional IRA has both.

eor
eor
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Re: Pralana Gold

Post by eor »

smitcat wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 6:33 pm
eor wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 8:58 am I did not investigate Roth conversions in Pralana Gold because I did in IORP. It showed that Roth conversions would only make a small difference in our disposable income and the total plan value. And my IRAs are subject to the pro rata rule. So we are not planning on any conversions.
FWIW - Roth conversions make a larger difference in our disposable income but if the Roth conversions only made a slightly positive disposable income difference in our baseline plan we would still do them for these reasons.
1. if we vary our baseline with one spouses demise coming earlier the Roths conversion value increases
2. if we get better than expected market returns and delay Roth spending the value increases
3. if we end up leaving funds to our heirs the after tax value to them is higher
YMMV
Smitcat

Thanks for the ideas. Gives me something to think about.

eor
blgaarder
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Re: Pralana Gold

Post by blgaarder »

I have subscribed since 2016.

There are many options that don't apply to us, such as rental property, home equity line of credit, 529, etc., but I have made good use of the Roth conversion page and the various sensitivity testing options. Bear market analysis is interesting.

I also suggest reading the manual and trying the free bronze version.

I am amazed at how much can be done with Excel macros. 9 MB for the file.
Rajsx
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Re: Pralana Gold

Post by Rajsx »

With an intention to buy Pralana Gold later, I first downloaded the Bronze version.
I am unable to open the file of Bronze, it keeps saying the file is corrupt.
Has anybody encountered this & if could share, how they got in the Bronze Program, I will be thankful.
I am retiring in a few months, having heard good things about Pralana I am keen on getting this software.

I have sent a email to Stuart, the owner, no reply yet.
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neurosphere
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Re: Pralana Gold

Post by neurosphere »

beernutz wrote: Mon Feb 01, 2021 11:20 am The Roth Conversion what if allows you to test various conversion options over a certain number of years starting at a particular year or by selecting conversions up to the top of each tax bracket over a selected number of years. For each combination of options it shows you the change in your net worth versus without the conversion and a breakeven chart of these net worths.

That is a little deceiving as the net worth shown without Roth conversions is pretax and the net worth with them is after tax. So for example if you have $1,000,000 in a tax deferred IRA, it is really not worth $1,000,000 because you are going to have to pay tax, possibly a lot of it, when you withdraw it. This would especially be the case if a RMD is received by a single filer because a spouse has passed as it is received as ordinary income whereas a post-conversion Roth IRA has already had its taxes paid.
It seems that this situation has been fixed in the 2021 version, in that you can now see the effects of a Roth conversion in either absolute dollars or effective (i.e. tax adjusted) dollars. See page 133 of the 2021 manual.
If you have to ask "Is a Target Date fund right for me?", the answer is "Yes" (even in taxable accounts).
chassis
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Re: Pralana Gold

Post by chassis »

I have read a number of Pralana Gold posts and if someone wants to use the level of detail of Pralana or RPM, that person would have the requisite skills to build and use the best retirement model available - one’s own Excel model.

Roll your own, folks.
SnowBog
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Re: Pralana Gold

Post by SnowBog »

chassis wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:36 pm I have read a number of Pralana Gold posts and if someone wants to use the level of detail of Pralana or RPM, that person would have the requisite skills to build and use the best retirement model available - one’s own Excel model.

Roll your own, folks.
Not necessarily true... Some people are better at "using" tools than making them...

That said, I think I have the skills to build my own model (and did). But I still value Pralana/other tools. IMHO even if you have your own model, it's good to get a "second opinion".
Exchme
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Re: Pralana Gold

Post by Exchme »

I bought a copy of Pralana Gold in January and very happy with it. It has an excellent tax package, covering existing LTCGs, NIIT, AMT, IRMAA, HSAs, inherited IRAs, non-deductible IRA contributions, and everything else I can think of in the tax code. I has a lot of flexibility, handling a big variety of withdrawal options (so you can tell it when to make HSA or other account withdrawals), multiple income and expense streams, it has a whole section on insurance and more an annuities that I've never looked at. While I like both i-orp and RPM for what they do, they are missing some of those pieces, so if you need those features, the free programs are not in the same league for tax handling.

Pralana Gold will allow you to spend down cash, allows 4 asset reallocations, seeks to get ACA subsidies when appropriate. You can optimize you and your spouse's SS claim dates for you tax situation and do studies of life expectancy, SS claim dates and other key parameters at the click of a buttons. It shows the historical range of outcomes and has a Monte Carlo option (though I haven't explored that). There are lots of withdrawal options available, I've slow never really explored those.

I've used it a lot for Roth studies. The automatic optimizer will check every 5% of the account to withdraw and show you the best case. The Roth conversion graph can be switched between "absolute $", meaning raw NW without correcting for taxes due on the t-IRA and "effective $" that applies your lifetime average marginal tax rate to your tax deferred. Alternatively you can select tax bracket and IRMAA tier limitations for conversions or you can choose a duration to convert or a constant amount to convert.

There is complexity because of all the flexibility, but the menus are well laid out and the manual is good.
Rajsx
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Re: Pralana Gold

Post by Rajsx »

I want to buy the Pralana Gold but the spread sheets intimidate me. How good in the excel spread sheets one needs to be to operate this software ?
dak
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Re: Pralana Gold

Post by dak »

Rajsx wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:51 pm I want to buy the Pralana Gold but the spread sheets intimidate me. How good in the excel spread sheets one needs to be to operate this software ?
You don't need any special spreadsheet talent to use Pralana Gold - I purchased this a few weeks ago and am pretty well satisfied with my purchase. What it does not have is a pretty "interview" type interface like, say, Turbo Tax. You are presented with a spreadsheet that runs over multiple pages, but do not worry, there is built-in navigation to help you.

I found a real nice feature of Pralana, is that it finally forced me to gather all of my information together and work with my spouse to define a baseline plan. Mind you, we are retired, so perhaps that should have happened earlier. Pralana lets you input lots of detail, and IMHO, the strength over a "roll your own" approach, is that we all have limited experience and unless you are willing and knowledgable enough to dig into lots of details (ACA, IRMAA, SS claiming, RMDs, etc) you are likely to forget something. I rolled my own, but still purchased Pralana to see if there were things that I was missing.

So... it is not especially pretty. It does not guide you through the data input. It DOES let you put in lots of detail. The results that come out do seem to make sense.

Also, you can download their "Bronze" version for free and give it a try. It is limited, but has the same look and feel as Gold. If you are uncomfortable with Bronze, don't buy Gold.

Finally - expect to spend some time reading the manual and do not expect to make a comprehensive model in one sitting. Take your time and make sure that you are putting in correct ( or at least reasonable) numbers for everything. Garbage In / Garbage Out as they say!
SnowBog
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Re: Pralana Gold

Post by SnowBog »

Rajsx wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:51 pm I want to buy the Pralana Gold but the spread sheets intimidate me. How good in the excel spread sheets one needs to be to operate this software ?
Tough for me to answer...

On the one hand, it's setup so that all you need to do is enter in values (and make selections) where they go. And IMHO they have a very good manual that you can use to walk you thru things. So if you can follow directions, minimum spreadsheet knowledge is needed.

But there are multiple "pages" of inputs, reports, etc. So it's not like you enter in a few fields and it gives you a simple answer. IMHO the "power" is in those details. So someone more adept might have an easier time getting understanding everything they see. (Although, I think the manual - and just more familiarity - will address that over time.)

All that said, if I recall the "Bronze" edition is free. So you can always start with it, see if it's too intimidating, or if it's useful to you.
Rajsx
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Re: Pralana Gold

Post by Rajsx »

Thank you
Whakamole
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Re: Pralana Gold

Post by Whakamole »

superbobbyg wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 10:40 am I have purchased Pralana Gold since its inception and upgrade each year.
Are upgrades full cost?
superbobbyg
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Re: Pralana Gold

Post by superbobbyg »

upgrades are not full cost. Last one was $49.
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