Vanguard, Backdoor Roth. Won't let me convert

Have a question about your personal investments? No matter how simple or complex, you can ask it here.
Post Reply
Topic Author
jeam3131
Posts: 268
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 2:48 pm

Vanguard, Backdoor Roth. Won't let me convert

Post by jeam3131 »

I usually fund my tIRA from an external bank transfer on a Monday, and then by Wednesday, Vanguard lets me do a Roth conversion.

This time, when I go to convert, the Vanguard website keeps saying "The amount you entered exceeds this fund's balance"

Did something change? It seems like the funds are showing up as unavailable. I'm not sure why it's doing this as I did the exact same sequence for my spouse's account last month and everything went fine (Fund tIRA Monday, convert Wednesday)
lakpr
Posts: 11612
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2011 9:59 am

Re: Vanguard, Backdoor Roth. Won't let me convert

Post by lakpr »

I think you want to enter 100% for the Roth conversion. Sounds like the market movements have made your balance decrease a bit within the traditional IRA.
chestnut
Posts: 105
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 2:35 pm

Re: Vanguard, Backdoor Roth. Won't let me convert

Post by chestnut »

It took 7 days for the fund to become available each time I did this. (2019 & 2020).

Edit: Ours is brokerage. We did it in April 2019 & Jan 2020. External Bank transfer to tIRA to Roth. It clearly stated it would take 7 days and showed that the fund was not available.
Last edited by chestnut on Thu Mar 05, 2020 9:04 am, edited 2 times in total.
lakpr
Posts: 11612
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2011 9:59 am

Re: Vanguard, Backdoor Roth. Won't let me convert

Post by lakpr »

We (mrs. lakpr and mr. lakpr) did the backdoor Roth in the first week of January this year, and we could convert from Traditional IRA to Roth IRA two days later. Mrs. lakpr is on Brokerage platform, and Mr. lakpr is on Mutual Fund platform .... so it's not platform specific either.

If something changed with respect to how soon you can convert, it must have been within the last month, certainly not earlier.
HomeStretch
Posts: 11419
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:06 pm

Re: Vanguard, Backdoor Roth. Won't let me convert

Post by HomeStretch »

I have not noticed a change. For my 2019 and 2020 backdoor Roths, I pulled funds for my contributions from my linked bank account into my Vanguard tIRA (brokerage account). It took 4-5 business days for the funds to be available at which point I then did the Roth conversions.
EddyB
Posts: 2431
Joined: Fri May 24, 2013 3:43 pm

Re: Vanguard, Backdoor Roth. Won't let me convert

Post by EddyB »

lakpr wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 8:55 am We (mrs. lakpr and mr. lakpr) did the backdoor Roth in the first week of January this year, and we could convert from Traditional IRA to Roth IRA two days later. Mrs. lakpr is on Brokerage platform, and Mr. lakpr is on Mutual Fund platform .... so it's not platform specific either.

If something changed with respect to how soon you can convert, it must have been within the last month, certainly not earlier.
Did you fund the initial traditional IRA from a bank account, or from another Vanguard account. I had the same issue the OP described, several years ago, and since then I’ve just made the transfer into the traditional IRA internally at Vanguard.
lakpr
Posts: 11612
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2011 9:59 am

Re: Vanguard, Backdoor Roth. Won't let me convert

Post by lakpr »

EddyB wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 9:03 am
lakpr wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 8:55 am We (mrs. lakpr and mr. lakpr) did the backdoor Roth in the first week of January this year, and we could convert from Traditional IRA to Roth IRA two days later. Mrs. lakpr is on Brokerage platform, and Mr. lakpr is on Mutual Fund platform .... so it's not platform specific either.

If something changed with respect to how soon you can convert, it must have been within the last month, certainly not earlier.
Did you fund the initial traditional IRA from a bank account, or from another Vanguard account. I had the same issue the OP described, several years ago, and since then I’ve just made the transfer into the traditional IRA internally at Vanguard.
From a linked bank account, in both cases ...
Topic Author
jeam3131
Posts: 268
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 2:48 pm

Re: Vanguard, Backdoor Roth. Won't let me convert

Post by jeam3131 »

lakpr wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 8:37 am I think you want to enter 100% for the Roth conversion. Sounds like the market movements have made your balance decrease a bit within the traditional IRA.
I transferred from my bank account to the vanguard settlement fund, so its value is still 6000. as of today, it still wont let me convert. So annoying since I can put it into the market when I want to.

Vanguard phone support was useless
Living Free
Posts: 822
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:31 pm

Re: Vanguard, Backdoor Roth. Won't let me convert

Post by Living Free »

I do bank to vanguard brokerage traditional IRA and it tells me I can’t convert for 7 days. It won’t allow me to convert the day after I make the contribution, but I can do the transfer the next day in spite of them saying it takes 7 days. So that’s how I have done it for the past couple of years. Just did it last week for my wife’s acct.
Topic Author
jeam3131
Posts: 268
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 2:48 pm

Re: Vanguard, Backdoor Roth. Won't let me convert

Post by jeam3131 »

Living Free wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 9:09 am I do bank to vanguard brokerage traditional IRA and it tells me I can’t convert for 7 days. It won’t allow me to convert the day after I make the contribution, but I can do the transfer the next day in spite of them saying it takes 7 days. So that’s how I have done it for the past couple of years. Just did it last week for my wife’s acct.
Same for me before. Last year It wouldnt let me convert the next day, but it did the following day. Now all of a sudden this sequence doesn't work. It wants me to wait even longer for no good reason
criticalmass
Posts: 2843
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:58 pm

Re: Vanguard, Backdoor Roth. Won't let me convert

Post by criticalmass »

jeam3131 wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 9:11 am
Living Free wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 9:09 am I do bank to vanguard brokerage traditional IRA and it tells me I can’t convert for 7 days. It won’t allow me to convert the day after I make the contribution, but I can do the transfer the next day in spite of them saying it takes 7 days. So that’s how I have done it for the past couple of years. Just did it last week for my wife’s acct.
Same for me before. Last year It wouldnt let me convert the next day, but it did the following day. Now all of a sudden this sequence doesn't work. It wants me to wait even longer for no good reason
New Roth Conversion data point for 2022:
I created the Traditional IRA Brokerage Account and funded with $6000 via ACH from a bank earlier this week. Today was the first day that it showed I had $6000 available, although the magic "Convert to Roth" link didn't appear on the Traditional IRA. I was able to use the Exchange process. and it helpfully asked if I wanted to convert to a Roth. I selected Convert entire account to my Vanguard Roth Mutual Fund account.

That resulted in an error: ""The amount you entered exceeds this fund's balance." Funny, since it shows $6000 available in the account, and I selected Convert Entire Account.

Then I tried to convert to my Roth Brokerage Account. Success!

"100% of (your) —Traditional IRA Brokerage Account— account will be converted. After the full in-kind transfer is completed, "residual balances" can follow for a period of time—usually more than 60 days. For questions about residual balances and sweeps, and how they may impact your in-kind transfer or retirement distribution, please contact us at 877-662-7447.

If anyone gets that error while converting, try to convert to a Brokerage Roth account instead of the mutual fund account. Maybe it would have worked if I waited a few more days for the funds to ripen more, who knows. But Traditional Brokerage -> Roth Brokerage worked better.
User avatar
celia
Posts: 16774
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 6:32 am
Location: SoCal

Re: Vanguard, Backdoor Roth. Won't let me convert

Post by celia »

Yes, I assume the mutual fund accounts and the brokerage accounts are still on different platforms. You should be able to convert/transfer between accounts on the same platform. If your accounts are on different platform, you probably still need to call up and request that they do the move.
A dollar in Roth is worth more than a dollar in a taxable account. A dollar in taxable is worth more than a dollar in a tax-deferred account.
sycamore
Posts: 6360
Joined: Tue May 08, 2018 12:06 pm

Re: Vanguard, Backdoor Roth. Won't let me convert

Post by sycamore »

Apparently the "The amount you entered exceeds this fund's balance" BDR problem has happened before:

https://www.google.com/search?q=The+amo ... eheads.org
brawlrats
Posts: 542
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:06 pm

Re: Vanguard, Backdoor Roth. Won't let me convert

Post by brawlrats »

criticalmass wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:48 pm
jeam3131 wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 9:11 am
Living Free wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 9:09 am I do bank to vanguard brokerage traditional IRA and it tells me I can’t convert for 7 days. It won’t allow me to convert the day after I make the contribution, but I can do the transfer the next day in spite of them saying it takes 7 days. So that’s how I have done it for the past couple of years. Just did it last week for my wife’s acct.
Same for me before. Last year It wouldnt let me convert the next day, but it did the following day. Now all of a sudden this sequence doesn't work. It wants me to wait even longer for no good reason
New Roth Conversion data point for 2022:
I created the Traditional IRA Brokerage Account and funded with $6000 via ACH from a bank earlier this week. Today was the first day that it showed I had $6000 available, although the magic "Convert to Roth" link didn't appear on the Traditional IRA. I was able to use the Exchange process. and it helpfully asked if I wanted to convert to a Roth. I selected Convert entire account to my Vanguard Roth Mutual Fund account.

That resulted in an error: ""The amount you entered exceeds this fund's balance." Funny, since it shows $6000 available in the account, and I selected Convert Entire Account.

Then I tried to convert to my Roth Brokerage Account. Success!

"100% of (your) —Traditional IRA Brokerage Account— account will be converted. After the full in-kind transfer is completed, "residual balances" can follow for a period of time—usually more than 60 days. For questions about residual balances and sweeps, and how they may impact your in-kind transfer or retirement distribution, please contact us at 877-662-7447.

If anyone gets that error while converting, try to convert to a Brokerage Roth account instead of the mutual fund account. Maybe it would have worked if I waited a few more days for the funds to ripen more, who knows. But Traditional Brokerage -> Roth Brokerage worked better.
The convert to Roth button doesn’t appear in the new style website. If you go to My account then balances & holdings, you’ll get the old website format and the convert option will appear in the traditional IRA section and you’ll get the standard IRA conversion screen.

I’m not a fan of the new website format for some of the pages, as they seem to have hidden a fair bit of functionality.

I was able to convert two business days after my deposit, but the funds were “unavailable” for withdrawal for 7-10 days. Not that I’d be withdrawing them from my Roth.
Last edited by brawlrats on Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
nolesrule
Posts: 2631
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:59 am

Re: Vanguard, Backdoor Roth. Won't let me convert

Post by nolesrule »

I initiated the deposit with a Vanguard pull from a bank account on Friday. Just for fun I tried the convert to Roth link (on the old style Balances and Holdings page) every day since so I wouldn't miss when the conversion became an option. On Wednesday, even though the TIRA was still showing the "unavailable" message, it let me do the conversion. That was 2 business days as Monday was a holiday.
brawlrats
Posts: 542
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:06 pm

Re: Vanguard, Backdoor Roth. Won't let me convert

Post by brawlrats »

nolesrule wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:58 pm I initiated the deposit with a Vanguard pull from a bank account on Friday. Just for fun I tried the convert to Roth link (on the old style Balances and Holdings page) every day since so I wouldn't miss when the conversion became an option. On Wednesday, even though the TIRA was still showing the "unavailable" message, it let me do the conversion. That was 2 business days as Monday was a holiday.
This has been my exact experience for the last two years.
criticalmass
Posts: 2843
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:58 pm

Re: Vanguard, Backdoor Roth. Won't let me convert

Post by criticalmass »

brawlrats wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:33 pm
criticalmass wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:48 pm
jeam3131 wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 9:11 am
Living Free wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 9:09 am I do bank to vanguard brokerage traditional IRA and it tells me I can’t convert for 7 days. It won’t allow me to convert the day after I make the contribution, but I can do the transfer the next day in spite of them saying it takes 7 days. So that’s how I have done it for the past couple of years. Just did it last week for my wife’s acct.
Same for me before. Last year It wouldnt let me convert the next day, but it did the following day. Now all of a sudden this sequence doesn't work. It wants me to wait even longer for no good reason
New Roth Conversion data point for 2022:
I created the Traditional IRA Brokerage Account and funded with $6000 via ACH from a bank earlier this week. Today was the first day that it showed I had $6000 available, although the magic "Convert to Roth" link didn't appear on the Traditional IRA. I was able to use the Exchange process. and it helpfully asked if I wanted to convert to a Roth. I selected Convert entire account to my Vanguard Roth Mutual Fund account.

That resulted in an error: ""The amount you entered exceeds this fund's balance." Funny, since it shows $6000 available in the account, and I selected Convert Entire Account.

Then I tried to convert to my Roth Brokerage Account. Success!

"100% of (your) —Traditional IRA Brokerage Account— account will be converted. After the full in-kind transfer is completed, "residual balances" can follow for a period of time—usually more than 60 days. For questions about residual balances and sweeps, and how they may impact your in-kind transfer or retirement distribution, please contact us at 877-662-7447.

If anyone gets that error while converting, try to convert to a Brokerage Roth account instead of the mutual fund account. Maybe it would have worked if I waited a few more days for the funds to ripen more, who knows. But Traditional Brokerage -> Roth Brokerage worked better.
The convert to Roth button doesn’t appear in the new style website. If you go to My account then balances & holdings, you’ll get the old website format and the convert option will appear in the traditional IRA section and you’ll get the standard IRA conversion screen.

I’m not a fan of the new website format for some of the pages, as they seem to have hidden a fair bit of functionality.

I was able to convert two business days after my deposit, but the funds were “unavailable” for withdrawal for 7-10 days. Not that I’d be withdrawing them from my Roth.
Agree with the new website. Instead of fixing things, they removed functionality and made the site slower with a new graphics heavy front end over the same back end. Sigh.
My main point is that while I couldn't convert to a mutual fund IRA account (strange error), I could convert to the brokerage. We'll see if it will allow my to add to my existing mutual funds in legacy account but funded from the brokerage settlement fund.
muffins14
Posts: 5528
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2016 4:14 am
Location: New York

Re: Vanguard, Backdoor Roth. Won't let me convert

Post by muffins14 »

Seems like another good reason to move off the “legacy” mutual fund platform. Haven’t they been trying to deprecate it for years now?
Crom laughs at your Four Winds
zrzhu111
Posts: 285
Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2013 6:03 pm

Re: Vanguard, Backdoor Roth. Won't let me convert

Post by zrzhu111 »

brawlrats wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:33 pm
criticalmass wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:48 pm
jeam3131 wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 9:11 am
Living Free wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 9:09 am I do bank to vanguard brokerage traditional IRA and it tells me I can’t convert for 7 days. It won’t allow me to convert the day after I make the contribution, but I can do the transfer the next day in spite of them saying it takes 7 days. So that’s how I have done it for the past couple of years. Just did it last week for my wife’s acct.
Same for me before. Last year It wouldnt let me convert the next day, but it did the following day. Now all of a sudden this sequence doesn't work. It wants me to wait even longer for no good reason
---
The convert to Roth button doesn’t appear in the new style website. If you go to My account then balances & holdings, you’ll get the old website format and the convert option will appear in the traditional IRA section and you’ll get the standard IRA conversion screen.

I’m not a fan of the new website format for some of the pages, as they seem to have hidden a fair bit of functionality.

I was able to convert two business days after my deposit, but the funds were “unavailable” for withdrawal for 7-10 days. Not that I’d be withdrawing them from my Roth.
Thanks for sharing. I am gonna do the contribution and conversion this week.
Post Reply