Leaving military. Stay in Roth TSP or transfer to Roth IRA?

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PhilSunkel
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Leaving military. Stay in Roth TSP or transfer to Roth IRA?

Post by PhilSunkel »

My son is separating from the military. He currently has a Roth TSP and a Roth IRA at Fidelity, both 100% in S&P500 funds. If I understand correctly he has 90 days to decide if he wants to maintain the Roth TSP or transfer in full to his Fidelity Roth IRA.

If I understand correctly:

(1) If he elects to transfer in full to the Fidelity IRA there are no penalties and it will be fully tax free?
(2) The IRA might allow more flexibility with regard to hardship withdrawals / withdrawals of contributions after five years?
(3) The Roth IRA can be inherited by heirs with no tax due which is not possible with the Roth TSP?

Other than access to the TSP G fund, which he isn’t invested in, I’m not sure I’m seeing any benefit to the Roth TSP.
I’d sure appreciate any insights, advice, or suggestions.
trueblueky
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Re: Leaving military. Stay in Roth TSP or transfer to Roth IRA?

Post by trueblueky »

PhilSunkel wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:49 pm My son is separating from the military. He currently has a Roth TSP and a Roth IRA at Fidelity, both 100% in S&P500 funds. If I understand correctly he has 90 days to decide if he wants to maintain the Roth TSP or transfer in full to his Fidelity Roth IRA.

If I understand correctly:

(1) If he elects to transfer in full to the Fidelity IRA there are no penalties and it will be fully tax free?
True
(2) The IRA might allow more flexibility with regard to hardship withdrawals / withdrawals of contributions after five years?
Transfer then, if needed. No rush.
(3) The Roth IRA can be inherited by heirs with no tax due which is not possible with the Roth TSP?
Why would heirs owe?

Other than access to the TSP G fund, which he isn’t invested in, I’m not sure I’m seeing any benefit to the Roth TSP.
I’d sure appreciate any insights, advice, or suggestions.
TSP is a low-fee provider that will accept funds from 401k in the future. He doesn't know where he may work over time, so that could be handy.

Don't sell G Fund short.
Topic Author
PhilSunkel
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Re: Leaving military. Stay in Roth TSP or transfer to Roth IRA?

Post by PhilSunkel »

So, when you say “ Transfer then, if needed. No rush.” I assume he has more than 90 days to decide? I thought he had to make a decision within 90 days and then he could not change or transfer out of the TSP until age 59 1/2.

As to the heirs issue, I’m reading articles indicating spouses can maintain the TSP but non-spousal beneficiaries cannot maintain the TSP and transfers to them are not tax deferred whereas they would be tax deferred with the Roth IRA.
mouth
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Re: Leaving military. Stay in Roth TSP or transfer to Roth IRA?

Post by mouth »

Please make sure you son 1) confirms if he has any tax exempt contributions (i.e. contributions while in a combat zone) and 2) if/how Fidelity will handle them. He will want to make sure those funds land in a Roth account and not given to him in cash. It won't be taxed but he'll lose the beneficial status. That was an issue I was going to have if forced to roll-over my TSP into my employers 401k [reason is off topic]. Luckily they backed down and I still have my TSP balance.

https://themilitarywallet.com/thrift-sa ... lover-ira/

Also, not sure where the 90 day deadline is coming from. Your son can initiate a TSP transfer out at any time without restriction. I've been out of service now for over 6 years and I can transfer tomorrow if I want.

Or does he have TSP loan?

https://www.tsp.gov/changes-in-your-car ... overnment/
Did you know if your account balance is $200 or more, you can keep it in the TSP when you leave the federal government?

Once you leave the uniformed services, you’ll no longer be able to make contributions. However, you can still change your investment mix, transfer eligible money into your account, and enjoy our low costs—all while your account continues to accrue earnings.

As you prepare to separate from service, here are some important things you must do:

- Make sure we have your current address at all times. While you’re an active duty service member, you can update your address through the MyPay website. Just make sure that you log in and go to the TSP section to change your TSP address. If you change it in the “Correspondence Address” section of myPay, it will not change your TSP address.
- If you have any TSP loans, pay them off within 90 days of your separation.
- Read Withdrawing Your TSP Account After Leaving Federal Service to fully understand your options.
- Read the tax notice “Important Tax Information About Payments From Your TSP Account.”
- Read TSP Benefits That Apply to Members of the Military Who Return to Federal Civilian Service to fully understand all of your rights under the Uniformed Services Employment and Reemployment Rights Act (USERRA).
EDIT TO ADD: you're reference to 59 1/2 sounds like you're thinking of withdrawals vs transfers. Your son can't make a withdrawal before 59 1/2 before or after 90 days ... at least not without penalty. But you're asking about a transfer if you're asking about sending the money to his Fidelity Roth IRA
trueblueky
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Re: Leaving military. Stay in Roth TSP or transfer to Roth IRA?

Post by trueblueky »

PhilSunkel wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 6:29 pm So, when you say “ Transfer then, if needed. No rush.” I assume he has more than 90 days to decide? I thought he had to make a decision within 90 days and then he could not change or transfer out of the TSP until age 59 1/2.

As to the heirs issue, I’m reading articles indicating spouses can maintain the TSP but non-spousal beneficiaries cannot maintain the TSP and transfers to them are not tax deferred whereas they would be tax deferred with the Roth IRA.
Non-spouse heirs can transfer Roth TSP to Roth IRA. No tax to heirs on an inherited Roth TSP. 10% early withdrawal penalty does not apply to heirs.
Topic Author
PhilSunkel
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Re: Leaving military. Stay in Roth TSP or transfer to Roth IRA?

Post by PhilSunkel »

He has no TSP loan. I thought I read somewhere he had 90 days to make the decision. I’m happy to be wrong about this.

He does have significant tax exempt contributions. It’s sounding like the Roth TSP has accounted for them and maybe it’s best not to transfer and open the door to that getting messed up?
Topic Author
PhilSunkel
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Re: Leaving military. Stay in Roth TSP or transfer to Roth IRA?

Post by PhilSunkel »

I have since found this thread that discusses the non-spousal issue.

viewtopic.php?t=317753

Chemocean posted “ However, unlike the non-spousal beneficiaries of YOUR TSP accounts, the non-spousal beneficiaries of the SPOUSAL account CANNOT be transferred to an inherited IRA and will be sent to the non-spousal beneficiaries as cash as a taxable event.”

That’s my concern with regard to the heir issue. Hate to create future problems for my grandkids.
trueblueky
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Re: Leaving military. Stay in Roth TSP or transfer to Roth IRA?

Post by trueblueky »

PhilSunkel wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 6:54 pm He has no TSP loan. I thought I read somewhere he had 90 days to make the decision. I’m happy to be wrong about this.

He does have significant tax exempt contributions. It’s sounding like the Roth TSP has accounted for them and maybe it’s best not to transfer and open the door to that getting messed up?
Agree.
mouth
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Re: Leaving military. Stay in Roth TSP or transfer to Roth IRA?

Post by mouth »

trueblueky wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 7:06 pm
PhilSunkel wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 6:54 pm He has no TSP loan. I thought I read somewhere he had 90 days to make the decision. I’m happy to be wrong about this.

He does have significant tax exempt contributions. It’s sounding like the Roth TSP has accounted for them and maybe it’s best not to transfer and open the door to that getting messed up?
Agree.
It isn't that uncommon. Lot's of folks with tax exempt funds. And it might only be an issue for folks like me where I have a large non-Roth contribution so the pro-rata rules and my employer's 401K rules just make it a "thing" I didn't want to do.

A call to Fido and the TSP can't hurt. The most important thing here is that he has more time than you thought.

EDIT TO ADD: https://the-military-guide.com/tsp-tax- ... thdrawals/
Topic Author
PhilSunkel
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Re: Leaving military. Stay in Roth TSP or transfer to Roth IRA?

Post by PhilSunkel »

Thank you both mouth and truebluesky. I appreciate your taking the time to post.
Herekittykitty
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Re: Leaving military. Stay in Roth TSP or transfer to Roth IRA?

Post by Herekittykitty »

Consider recommending he leave his Roth TSP right where it is.

The TSP is a great opportunity and if your son closes his out, that opportunity is gone forever as he can't open it again once he separates from service. The only way to open either a Roth TSP or regular TSP account is to do it while in federal service.

And as far as I know, there is no hurry to decide. He could leave it right where it is as long as he wants to, and should he ever decide even years in the future to roll his Roth TSP into a Roth 401k, he could.

ALSO:

In case he wanted to hold open the option to roll money into a regular TSP in the future - he would have to have a regular TSP account open. Since you can only open a TSP account while in federal service (military or civilian), he might want to consider opening a regular TSP account right now before he separates from service.

So my suggestion is that he leave his Roth TSP alone, right where it is. And that he open a regular TSP account right now. He has to do it before separating from service. It doesn't have to have a lot of money in it to be allowed to keep it open (I forget how much, but I think is a few hundred dollars - but it would be important for him to look that up for sure or call the TSP and ask them.)

Then he would leave the regular TSP open too, and leave it alone for now. In some future employment, he might have a 401k and on separation from that employment might want to roll it into the TSP. This would give him the opportunity to do so.

Years ago I was in federal service for about a year. I left my TSP (regular, Roth wasn't available then) where it was, at about $11,000. With no further contributions, it now has nearly $40,000 in it. At some point when I leave my current employer, I may roll my 457 (401k equivalent) into the TSP. I am happy that I have that option. Sure, I could have rolled the TSP money into my current 457b or into an IRA, and it would likely have grown in either. But I can always do that if I want to (I don't,) and I'm seriously considering rolling at least some and maybe all of my 457b money into the TSP on retirement from my current employment.

Caveat: It has been a long time since I've reviewed the TSP provisions. I'll be happy to edit in any corrections.
I don't know anything.
renegade06
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Re: Leaving military. Stay in Roth TSP or transfer to Roth IRA?

Post by renegade06 »

I’d strongly consider leaving the ROTH TSP where it is. TSP has excellent funds with rock bottom costs. I’ve kept my TSP open and roll my 401k into my TSP when I’ve changed companies (I’m former military and federal employee). I believe that he could roll some of the $$ out of TSP and into Vanguard while leaving the rest in his TSP. You might want to confirm that with TSP. I agree with herekittykitty that he should consider opening a regular TSP before he leaves military service.
Dontridetheindexdown
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Re: Leaving military. Stay in Roth TSP or transfer to Roth IRA?

Post by Dontridetheindexdown »

Yes, keep Roth TSP, and definitely open a traditional (tax-deferred) TSP.

Even if he only keeps the minimum amounts in each account to remain open, it will allow him to access certain funds available nowhere else.

I'm 70 years old, retired military, and much later retired civil service.

I use TSP G Fund (equivalent to a stable value fund, with more appreciation potential) for my entire tax-deferred investment (36% of net worth).

Over the years, I have transferred other tax-deferred accounts into TSP.

Once you are in the TSP, from my perspective, it is worth keeping forever.
renegade06
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Re: Leaving military. Stay in Roth TSP or transfer to Roth IRA?

Post by renegade06 »

Dontridetheindexdown wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:27 pm Yes, keep Roth TSP, and definitely open a traditional (tax-deferred) TSP.

Even if he only keeps the minimum amounts in each account to remain open, it will allow him to access certain funds available nowhere else.

I'm 70 years old, retired military, and much later retired civil service.

I use TSP G Fund (equivalent to a stable value fund, with more appreciation potential) for my entire tax-deferred investment (36% of net worth).

Over the years, I have transferred other tax-deferred accounts into TSP.

Once you are in the TSP, from my perspective, it is worth keeping forever.
+1. Your son will really appreciate access to the TSP G fund - at a minimum.
Topic Author
PhilSunkel
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Re: Leaving military. Stay in Roth TSP or transfer to Roth IRA?

Post by PhilSunkel »

Thank you everyone for taking the time to post responses. Given that I misunderstood about the 90 day window to opt for a transfer I’m thinking it best to recommend my son keep the Roth TSP like suggested.

I really appreciate all the help and suggestions.
ChrisC
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Re: Leaving military. Stay in Roth TSP or transfer to Roth IRA?

Post by ChrisC »

Dontridetheindexdown wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:27 pm Yes, keep Roth TSP, and definitely open a traditional (tax-deferred) TSP.

Even if he only keeps the minimum amounts in each account to remain open, it will allow him to access certain funds available nowhere else.

I'm 70 years old, retired military, and much later retired civil service.

I use TSP G Fund (equivalent to a stable value fund, with more appreciation potential) for my entire tax-deferred investment (36% of net worth).

Over the years, I have transferred other tax-deferred accounts into TSP.

Once you are in the TSP, from my perspective, it is worth keeping forever.
Does the OP’s son really have to open up a traditional TSP in order for him to later transfer traditional IRA or traditional 401k funds into TSP? I know that I was able to transfer Roth 401k funds into TSP without having a separate Roth TSP account and that with my transfer, TSP established a Roth TSP account with the funds. (My transfer included both traditional and Roth 401k funds.)

I agree with the general idea of keeping the TSP account.
Fishing50
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Re: Leaving military. Stay in Roth TSP or transfer to Roth IRA?

Post by Fishing50 »

PhilSunkel wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 6:54 pm He has no TSP loan. I thought I read somewhere he had 90 days to make the decision. I’m happy to be wrong about this.

He does have significant tax exempt contributions. It’s sounding like the Roth TSP has accounted for them and maybe it’s best not to transfer and open the door to that getting messed up?
Tax Exempt contributions are a good reason to transfer the account because tax exempt contributions never grow. Any growth is added to the tax deferred balance within TSP. My tax exempt balance hasn’t changed in over decade, since my last eligibility for tax exempt contributions.

After retirement I plan to rollover nearly my entire (leaving only the minimum account balance) TSP account to separate the Roth, tax deferred, and tax exempt balances. Effectively liquidating the tax deferred balance account offers an opportunity for TSP return tax exempt contributions returned to the owner because most brokers cannot handle tax exempt contributions. Once I receive the check for tax exempt money, I’ll use 60 day rollover rules to deposit that money in a Roth IRA account. Whitecoat Investor had a very good post about maintaining a cost basis through this process, but others have used the 60 day rule as I described. TSP withdrawal process has recently changed which may complicate the process requiring Roth rollover first, then wait 30days to rollover tax deferred. After the entire process, I plan to roll some tax deferred money back into TSP, for our bond allocation which is G Fund.

YMMV :beer
1yr from military pension. 80 equites / 20 bonds for life, ZERO emergency fund, 100% taxable in equities (dividends in cash), 33% taxable, 30% Roth, 37% tax deferred. | Gone Fishing At 52yrs old!
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neutics
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Re: Leaving military. Stay in Roth TSP or transfer to Roth IRA?

Post by neutics »

Fishing50 wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:29 am
Tax Exempt contributions are a good reason to transfer the account because tax exempt contributions never grow. Any growth is added to the tax deferred balance within TSP. My tax exempt balance hasn’t changed in over decade, since my last eligibility for tax exempt contributions.

After retirement I plan to rollover nearly my entire (leaving only the minimum account balance) TSP account to separate the Roth, tax deferred, and tax exempt balances. Effectively liquidating the tax deferred balance account offers an opportunity for TSP return tax exempt contributions returned to the owner because most brokers cannot handle tax exempt contributions. Once I receive the check for tax exempt money, I’ll use 60 day rollover rules to deposit that money in a Roth IRA account. Whitecoat Investor had a very good post about maintaining a cost basis through this process, but others have used the 60 day rule as I described. TSP withdrawal process has recently changed which may complicate the process requiring Roth rollover first, then wait 30days to rollover tax deferred. After the entire process, I plan to roll some tax deferred money back into TSP, for our bond allocation which is G Fund.

YMMV :beer
This is exactly the right/best way to handle this...have helped a number of clients with the somewhat clumsy process through TSP as a way to get the tax-exempt contributions into their respective Roth IRA's. At least for TD Ameritrade all they need is a letter explaining where the funds came from, as you will literally just receive a check/cash from TSP. If you do it right you can keep your TSP account open at least for future rollovers, but I believe the minimum balance is $500 so don't cut it too close. Note the last time I did this TSP could only distribute pro-rata, meaning you couldn't just select the contribution source you wanted to distribute. Hope that has or will change soon! I plan to do the same when I retire from the military in 3-5 years.
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PhilSunkel
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Re: Leaving military. Stay in Roth TSP or transfer to Roth IRA?

Post by PhilSunkel »

I’m feeling pretty stupid and this has me completely confused.

My son has a Roth TSP.
He has no traditional (pre-tax) TSP.
Some of the contributions to the Roth TSP did occur while he was in a tax free combat zone.
There is no differentiation on his most recent TSP statement between contributions while deployed (tax free zone) or regular taxable income contributions (made while stationed in the USA).
His entire Roth TSP balance is invested in the C Fund.
I don’t understand what portion wouldn’t grow with the S&P500 returns?
I assumed I could have him transfer the whole Roth TSP to his Roth IRA without having to deal with multiple checks.
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neutics
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Re: Leaving military. Stay in Roth TSP or transfer to Roth IRA?

Post by neutics »

PhilSunkel wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:08 am I’m feeling pretty stupid and this has me completely confused.

My son has a Roth TSP.
He has no traditional (pre-tax) TSP.
Some of the contributions to the Roth TSP did occur while he was in a tax free combat zone.
There is no differentiation on his most recent TSP statement between contributions while deployed (tax free zone) or regular taxable income contributions (made while stationed in the USA).
His entire Roth TSP balance is invested in the C Fund.
I don’t understand what portion wouldn’t grow with the S&P500 returns?
I assumed I could have him transfer the whole Roth TSP to his Roth IRA without having to deal with multiple checks.
Ok, in that case you are in the clear to transfer to a Roth IRA if desired.

IF he had 'tax exempt' contributions they would be listed on the TSP annual statement as a separate category (note, NOT on the quarterly statements). If he has no pre-tax contributions then I highly doubt he would have any tax-exempt either. The Roth TSP was not an option until roughly 2009-2011, so if he was deployed prior to then and contributed to his pre-tax TSP it would have gone into that tax-exempt bucket. Doesn't appear this is the case.

TSP is tricky and different than a normal 401(k) so I admire your efforts to help him!
Joe Public
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Re: Leaving military. Stay in Roth TSP or transfer to Roth IRA?

Post by Joe Public »

My understanding is that CZTE pay needs to be separately tracked only if contributed to a traditional TSP account because, if it were not, that post-tax money would be treated as income upon withdrawal from the traditional TSP account.

In a Roth TSP account, though, no funds will be includible in income upon withdrawal. For that reason, there is no need to separately account for CZTE funds if contributed to a Roth TSP account.
jsprag
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Re: Leaving military. Stay in Roth TSP or transfer to Roth IRA?

Post by jsprag »

Herekittykitty wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 7:18 pm So my suggestion is that he leave his Roth TSP alone, right where it is. And that he open a regular TSP account right now. He has to do it before separating from service. It doesn't have to have a lot of money in it to be allowed to keep it open (I forget how much, but I think is a few hundred dollars - but it would be important for him to look that up for sure or call the TSP and ask them.)
+1 on this advice.

Another reason to keep traditional and Roth TSP accounts is it provides lifelong availability of an employer sponsored plan to help manage exposure to the pro rate rule if he ever looks at doing back door Roth conversions of future IRA contributions.
Fishing50
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Re: Leaving military. Stay in Roth TSP or transfer to Roth IRA?

Post by Fishing50 »

PhilSunkel wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:08 am I’m feeling pretty stupid and this has me completely confused.

My son has a Roth TSP.
He has no traditional (pre-tax) TSP.
Some of the contributions to the Roth TSP did occur while he was in a tax free combat zone.
There is no differentiation on his most recent TSP statement between contributions while deployed (tax free zone) or regular taxable income contributions (made while stationed in the USA).
His entire Roth TSP balance is invested in the C Fund.
I don’t understand what portion wouldn’t grow with the S&P500 returns?
I assumed I could have him transfer the whole Roth TSP to his Roth IRA without having to deal with multiple checks.
If it’s all Roth TSP, nothing to worry about…there are no tax exempt contributions.
It’s probably worth keeping in TSP, in case he wants access to G Fund in the future.
1yr from military pension. 80 equites / 20 bonds for life, ZERO emergency fund, 100% taxable in equities (dividends in cash), 33% taxable, 30% Roth, 37% tax deferred. | Gone Fishing At 52yrs old!
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Re: Leaving military. Stay in Roth TSP or transfer to Roth IRA?

Post by Nords »

PhilSunkel wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:08 am I’m feeling pretty stupid and this has me completely confused.

My son has a Roth TSP.
He has no traditional (pre-tax) TSP.
Some of the contributions to the Roth TSP did occur while he was in a tax free combat zone.
There is no differentiation on his most recent TSP statement between contributions while deployed (tax free zone) or regular taxable income contributions (made while stationed in the USA).
His entire Roth TSP balance is invested in the C Fund.
I don’t understand what portion wouldn’t grow with the S&P500 returns?
I assumed I could have him transfer the whole Roth TSP to his Roth IRA without having to deal with multiple checks.
All of that's correct, Phil. All of the Roth TSP will grow with the funds he's invested in.

I'm pretty sure that Fidelity now knows how to handle a custodian-to-custodian transfer of a Roth TSP with contributions from Combat Zone Tax-Exempt pay without screwing up the accounting. Your son is already planning to hold copies (scanned or paper) of all of his LESs and his annual TSP statements, so he'll have all the numbers he needs to document his contributions from taxable pay and from CZTE pay. You're right that this doesn't matter for a Roth TSP, although in the extremely unlikely event that the tax law was changed then it could be an issue.

Your son could roll his Roth TSP over to a Fidelity Roth IRA with lower expense ratios. Right now he's paying a very small expense ratio in the Roth TSP, and I doubt the difference in a Fidelity Roth IRA is significant. But he can do the spreadsheet math on that and see whether he cares.

Roth TSPs (like all designated Roth accounts) have RMDs. The RMDs are untaxed but they're still RMDs and could be penalized if he screws that up. This is probably the main reason why people roll their Roth 401(k)s and Roth TSPs to Roth IRAs.

In some states, 401(k)s have more protection from litigation, bankruptcy, and liability than IRAs. Your son could check with his base legal service office and talk with a JAG about that issue.

In the unlikely event that your son cares about the G fund or about an annuity, he could do those from the Roth TSP. Some military vets leave a few hundred bucks in the TSP simply to allow them to someday roll a retirement account back into the TSP for these options. Personally I think it's more conservative than the hassle is worth.

Your son's welcome to contact me or read The-Military-Guide if he has more questions.
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