Should I buy house from father in law

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Topic Author
pharming2017
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Should I buy house from father in law

Post by pharming2017 »

Hi everyone!

My wife and I currently live in one of my father in laws homes (rent free). He is near retirement and has expressed interest in selling us the house we live in at a discount, in an effort to consolidate his portfolio.

House current market value around $2million - $2.2million
He has proposed a sale price of $1.5 million

I think this is a no brainer personally -- he's essentially giving us free money. Here are our stats.

Current stats:
Married 30 y/o couple
Combined gross income $350k - $400K / yr (started making this around 2017)
Non-retirement accounts: $800k
Retirement accounts: $400K
Zero debt
One baby on the way!

My plan was to put up $600k (50% of portfolio) upfront and mortgage the remainder. I'm sure we can afford the payments, however i'm wondering if this is a good route to take. Am I missing something? From an investing stand point I feel like this is almost an instant 100% return on $600k.

One uncertainty is that my wife will likely be dropping down to part time to take care of our new baby, so gross income would probably drop to $250k/yr starting at the end of this year. I don't plan on spending anything on child care in the interim as my MIL will be helping us care for the child when both my wife and I are at work.

All feedback is appreciated.

Thanks!
lakpr
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Re: Should I buy house from father in law

Post by lakpr »

If your numbers about the value of the home, and the ability to swing the mortgage, are accurate -- yes it is a no brainer.

Your father in law must file a gift tax return for that $600k gift he is giving you (does not mean he owes gift taxes, it is just that he should deduct the $600k against his lifetime exempt limit of $11.2 million)

Lastly, remember that the interest on the mortgage is not deductible above $750k limit. If you can afford even more down payment to bring down the principal balance to $750k, I suggest you do that.
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Sandtrap
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Re: Should I buy house from father in law

Post by Sandtrap »

Yes.
Buy the home.
Not only is it prudent financially, but it is part of your FIL's estate planning.
So, there's far more to the issue than what can be entered on a spreadsheet (like much in life that seems only financial).

The actual buying and paying for the home is only 20% of the issue.
This is a good thing to do and buy. And, a wonderful thing for your FIL, and your family.
IMHO.
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Wiggums
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Re: Should I buy house from father in law

Post by Wiggums »

Assuming you like the house, I’d buy it.
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Outer Marker
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Re: Should I buy house from father in law

Post by Outer Marker »

pharming2017 wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:26 am Hi everyone!

My wife and I currently live in one of my father in laws homes (rent free). He is near retirement and has expressed interest in selling us the house we live in at a discount, in an effort to consolidate his portfolio.

House current market value around $2million - $2.2million
He has proposed a sale price of $1.5 million
If you're okay accepting the gift, it's a no brainer. It sounds like your FIL is financially well set if he has multiple homes, including this one for $2M. This is not an effort to consolidate his portfolio; it's doing something very nice for you and his daughter. That's fine. He has the means to do so. I'd accept it and thank him appropriately.
alex_686
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Re: Should I buy house from father in law

Post by alex_686 »

A side question.

Does the house hold any emotional value to your father? Irrational or not?

What would his emotional reaction be if you sold it and moved someplace else?

Some people would have strong emotional reactions. Family history. Father-in-Law may be controlling. etc. I have seen it.
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Topic Author
pharming2017
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Re: Should I buy house from father in law

Post by pharming2017 »

lakpr wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 6:15 am If your numbers about the value of the home, and the ability to swing the mortgage, are accurate -- yes it is a no brainer.

Your father in law must file a gift tax return for that $600k gift he is giving you (does not mean he owes gift taxes, it is just that he should deduct the $600k against his lifetime exempt limit of $11.2 million)

Lastly, remember that the interest on the mortgage is not deductible above $750k limit. If you can afford even more down payment to bring down the principal balance to $750k, I suggest you do that.
Thanks for the response. Hopefully we can accumulate another 150k in our non-retirement account in the next year so we can get to 750k.
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pharming2017
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Re: Should I buy house from father in law

Post by pharming2017 »

alex_686 wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:24 am A side question.

Does the house hold any emotional value to your father? Irrational or not?

What would his emotional reaction be if you sold it and moved someplace else?

Some people would have strong emotional reactions. Family history. Father-in-Law may be controlling. etc. I have seen it.
He claims we are free to sell it after two years to take the 500k tax exemption. Assuming prices don’t crash.

But who knows if those feelings will change?
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Re: Should I buy house from father in law

Post by Gill »

pharming2017 wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:42 am He claims we are free to sell it after two years to take the 500k tax exemption. Assuming prices don’t crash.
What is his basis in the property? I'm not so sure you would have a gain of $500k after two years. The usual treatment is that his basis is apportioned between the sale and the gift.
Gill
Cost basis is redundant. One has a basis in an investment | One advises and gives advice | One should follow the principle of investing one's principal
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pharming2017
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Re: Should I buy house from father in law

Post by pharming2017 »

Gill wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:47 am
pharming2017 wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:42 am He claims we are free to sell it after two years to take the 500k tax exemption. Assuming prices don’t crash.
What is his basis in the property? I'm not so sure you would have a gain of $500k after two years.
Gill
He bought it for $698k in 2002.
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Re: Should I buy house from father in law

Post by Gill »

pharming2017 wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:52 am
Gill wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:47 am
pharming2017 wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:42 am He claims we are free to sell it after two years to take the 500k tax exemption. Assuming prices don’t crash.
What is his basis in the property? I'm not so sure you would have a gain of $500k after two years.
Gill
He bought it for $698k in 2002.
Call it $700k. Say fair market value is $2 million and he sells it to you for $1.5 million. Therefore $525k is apportioned to his sale and he has a gain of $975k and $175k is apportioned to the gift. You acquire the basis of $175k plus your purchase price of $1.5k giving you a total basis of $1,675,000. He may not like that because it probably makes his gain larger than he anticipated.
Gill
Cost basis is redundant. One has a basis in an investment | One advises and gives advice | One should follow the principle of investing one's principal
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pharming2017
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Re: Should I buy house from father in law

Post by pharming2017 »

Gill wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:57 am
pharming2017 wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:52 am
Gill wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:47 am
pharming2017 wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:42 am He claims we are free to sell it after two years to take the 500k tax exemption. Assuming prices don’t crash.
What is his basis in the property? I'm not so sure you would have a gain of $500k after two years.
Gill
He bought it for $698k in 2002.
Call it $700k. Say fair market value is $2 million and he sells it to you for $1.5 million. Therefore $525k is apportioned to his sale and he has a gain of $975k and $175k is apportioned to the gift. You acquire the basis of $175k plus your purchase price of $1.5k giving you a total basis of $1,675,000. He may not like that because it probably makes his gain larger than he anticipated.
Gill
Thanks for bringing this up. Can you post a link that goes into this further so I can read up on it? I’m not too familiar with this.

Thanks!
Dyloot
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Re: Should I buy house from father in law

Post by Dyloot »

Do you live in California? If so, the parent-child sale should allow you maintain your FILs property tax status on the property. A major win for a property that has increased so much in value.

Also--if your FIL sells you the home at a discount, is it really considered a gift? I purchased a home from my FIL (in California) at a reduced cost from the appraisal and there was no talk of gifts. My understanding is my FIL was allowed to sell the home for the price he desired; no entity came along and told him that he had sold for too little and he must thus issue the difference as a gift.

EDIT: Some quick Googling uncovered that the IRS would see the purchase as a gift. Interesting. I'm curious how often this triggers an IRS inquiry. If I were the OP, I'd consult a tax professional for this discussion.
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pharming2017
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Re: Should I buy house from father in law

Post by pharming2017 »

Dyloot wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:10 am Do you live in California? If so, the parent-child sale should allow you maintain your FILs property tax status on the property. A major win for a property that has increased so much in value.

Also--if your FIL sells you the home at a discount, is it really considered a gift? I purchased a home from my FIL (in California) at a reduced cost from the appraisal and there was no talk of gifts. My understanding is my FIL was allowed to sell the home for the price he desired; no entity came along and told him that he had sold for too little and he must thus issue the difference as a gift.

EDIT: Some quick Googling uncovered that the IRS would see the purchase as a gift. Interesting. I'm curious how often this triggers an IRS inquiry. If I were the OP, I'd consult a tax professional for this discussion.
We live in San Diego. Property tax is another thing I was worried about. He currently pays around $12k/year on property tax for this house. Should I expect to pay more?
aj44
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Re: Should I buy house from father in law

Post by aj44 »

Should you take a $600k gift?

Yes times 100
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Re: Should I buy house from father in law

Post by Gill »

Dyloot wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:10 am
Also--if your FIL sells you the home at a discount, is it really considered a gift? I purchased a home from my FIL (in California) at a reduced cost from the appraisal and there was no talk of gifts. My understanding is my FIL was allowed to sell the home for the price he desired; no entity came along and told him that he had sold for too little and he must thus issue the difference as a gift.

EDIT: Some quick Googling uncovered that the IRS would see the purchase as a gift. Interesting. I'm curious how often this triggers an IRS inquiry. If I were the OP, I'd consult a tax professional for this discussion.
Yes, this transaction clearly falls within the definition of a taxable gift for which a gift tax return is to be filed. Just because "no entity came along..." means that he wasn't audited by the IRS and wasn't caught. Selling to a relative for less than FMV constitutes a taxable gift.
Gill
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Dyloot
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Re: Should I buy house from father in law

Post by Dyloot »

pharming2017 wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:15 am
Dyloot wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:10 am Do you live in California? If so, the parent-child sale should allow you maintain your FILs property tax status on the property. A major win for a property that has increased so much in value.

Also--if your FIL sells you the home at a discount, is it really considered a gift? I purchased a home from my FIL (in California) at a reduced cost from the appraisal and there was no talk of gifts. My understanding is my FIL was allowed to sell the home for the price he desired; no entity came along and told him that he had sold for too little and he must thus issue the difference as a gift.

EDIT: Some quick Googling uncovered that the IRS would see the purchase as a gift. Interesting. I'm curious how often this triggers an IRS inquiry. If I were the OP, I'd consult a tax professional for this discussion.
We live in San Diego. Property tax is another thing I was worried about. He currently pays around $12k/year on property tax for this house. Should I expect to pay more?
I (believe) I have good news for you, my friend. California has a wonderful parent-child property sale exclusion that allows you to take over your FIL's property tax number when you purchase it. If I'm understanding your posts correctly, that means you'll be paying property taxes on $800,000ish value instead of more than $2 million. That's a HUGE value right there.

When you purchase the home you'll need to note that with the Title company when you complete the paperwork and follow up with your tax accessor to make sure it isn't missed during the paperwork phase of the title change.

I think this will add another line item in the "I should buy it" column when you're making your decision.
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Re: Should I buy house from father in law

Post by Dyloot »

Gill wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:18 am
Dyloot wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:10 am
Also--if your FIL sells you the home at a discount, is it really considered a gift? I purchased a home from my FIL (in California) at a reduced cost from the appraisal and there was no talk of gifts. My understanding is my FIL was allowed to sell the home for the price he desired; no entity came along and told him that he had sold for too little and he must thus issue the difference as a gift.

EDIT: Some quick Googling uncovered that the IRS would see the purchase as a gift. Interesting. I'm curious how often this triggers an IRS inquiry. If I were the OP, I'd consult a tax professional for this discussion.
Yes, this transaction clearly falls within the definition of a taxable gift for which a gift tax return is to be filed. Just because "no entity came along..." means that he wasn't audited by the IRS and wasn't caught. Selling to a relative for less than FMV constitutes a taxable gift.
Gill
Thanks, Gill. Interesting enough, this was never mentioned by any of the numerous professionals we worked with when completing the sale of the property. I know there is no excuse of ignorance when skirting tax laws, but I'm somewhat amused that this can occur without triggering a consequence.

Thanks for the correction.
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Re: Should I buy house from father in law

Post by Gill »

Dyloot wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:25 am Thanks, Gill. Interesting enough, this was never mentioned by any of the numerous professionals we worked with when completing the sale of the property. I know there is no excuse of ignorance when skirting tax laws, but I'm somewhat amused that this can occur without triggering a consequence.

Thanks for the correction.
I suspect there was a little bit of "wink-wink" on the part of the professionals who chose to look the other way.
Gill
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Re: Should I buy house from father in law

Post by Watty »

One thing to consider is what happens with the $600K gift if you get divorced in a few years. You might want to have a lawyer write up some sort of agreement about that.

pharming2017 wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:26 am Am I missing something?
You may want to get the house inspected before you buy it.

The discount is so large that I can't imagine that there would be anything in the inspection that would be an issue but having it inspected would make it clear that the condition of the house was known and any future problems are new and your responsibility. That way if there is a problem a month after you buy the house that the inspector missed it would also be very clear that the FIL should not have had any reason to suspect there was a problem.

If the FIL has owned the house for a long time then there could be some issues with things like wiring or plumbing that would be good to know about so you could have the fixed so the house would be in good safe condition.
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Re: Should I buy house from father in law

Post by Gill »

Watty wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:39 am One thing to consider is what happens with the $600K gift if you get divorced in a few years. You might want to have a lawyer write up some sort of agreement about that.

The gift is from the father of OP's spouse. What would OP have to gain by pressing this issue?



You may want to get the house inspected before you buy it.

Again, isn't this kind of looking a gift horse in the mouth?

Gill
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Re: Should I buy house from father in law

Post by Big Dog »

Dyloot wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:21 am
pharming2017 wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:15 am
Dyloot wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:10 am Do you live in California? If so, the parent-child sale should allow you maintain your FILs property tax status on the property. A major win for a property that has increased so much in value.

Also--if your FIL sells you the home at a discount, is it really considered a gift? I purchased a home from my FIL (in California) at a reduced cost from the appraisal and there was no talk of gifts. My understanding is my FIL was allowed to sell the home for the price he desired; no entity came along and told him that he had sold for too little and he must thus issue the difference as a gift.

EDIT: Some quick Googling uncovered that the IRS would see the purchase as a gift. Interesting. I'm curious how often this triggers an IRS inquiry. If I were the OP, I'd consult a tax professional for this discussion.
We live in San Diego. Property tax is another thing I was worried about. He currently pays around $12k/year on property tax for this house. Should I expect to pay more?
I (believe) I have good news for you, my friend. California has a wonderful parent-child property sale exclusion that allows you to take over your FIL's property tax number when you purchase it. If I'm understanding your posts correctly, that means you'll be paying property taxes on $800,000ish value instead of more than $2 million. That's a HUGE value right there.

When you purchase the home you'll need to note that with the Title company when you complete the paperwork and follow up with your tax accessor to make sure it isn't missed during the paperwork phase of the title change.

I think this will add another line item in the "I should buy it" column when you're making your decision.
Methinks that only applies to father's primary residence but it sounds like OP is renting one of father's income-producing properties. If so, only the first $1m of value remains at Prop 13 tax rate. Anything over $1m gets increased by the tax assessor.

OP: suggest you obtain an independent appraisal for your records (if your lender doesn't require one).

https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/calif ... -to-16226/
123
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Re: Should I buy house from father in law

Post by 123 »

Note that under the California exemption from property tax reassessment transfer from parent to child it is only his child (your spouse) that would qualify for the exemption from reassessment. If you buy the house jointly your spouse would get her half free from reassessment but your half would be reassessed at current value. Between property basis and property tax and financing for purchase you can have quite a complex situation.
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Re: Should I buy house from father in law

Post by delamer »

Gill wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:18 am
Dyloot wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:10 am
Also--if your FIL sells you the home at a discount, is it really considered a gift? I purchased a home from my FIL (in California) at a reduced cost from the appraisal and there was no talk of gifts. My understanding is my FIL was allowed to sell the home for the price he desired; no entity came along and told him that he had sold for too little and he must thus issue the difference as a gift.

EDIT: Some quick Googling uncovered that the IRS would see the purchase as a gift. Interesting. I'm curious how often this triggers an IRS inquiry. If I were the OP, I'd consult a tax professional for this discussion.
Yes, this transaction clearly falls within the definition of a taxable gift for which a gift tax return is to be filed. Just because "no entity came along..." means that he wasn't audited by the IRS and wasn't caught. Selling to a relative for less than FMV constitutes a taxable gift.
Gill
Is the rent-free occupancy by the OP & his wife also a taxable gift from the FIL (and maybe MIL, depending on who actually owns the property)?
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Re: Should I buy house from father in law

Post by Gill »

delamer wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 3:25 pm
Is the rent-free occupancy by the OP & his wife also a taxable gift from the FIL (and maybe MIL, depending on who actually owns the property)?
There is case law to the effect that this is in fact a taxable gift. I suppose OP can assume FIL is reporting this. :happy
Gill
Cost basis is redundant. One has a basis in an investment | One advises and gives advice | One should follow the principle of investing one's principal
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pharming2017
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Re: Should I buy house from father in law

Post by pharming2017 »

123 wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:57 pm Note that under the California exemption from property tax reassessment transfer from parent to child it is only his child (your spouse) that would qualify for the exemption from reassessment. If you buy the house jointly your spouse would get her half free from reassessment but your half would be reassessed at current value. Between property basis and property tax and financing for purchase you can have quite a complex situation.
How about if my wife is the only one on the title?
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pharming2017
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Re: Should I buy house from father in law

Post by pharming2017 »

delamer wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 3:25 pm
Gill wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:18 am
Dyloot wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:10 am
Also--if your FIL sells you the home at a discount, is it really considered a gift? I purchased a home from my FIL (in California) at a reduced cost from the appraisal and there was no talk of gifts. My understanding is my FIL was allowed to sell the home for the price he desired; no entity came along and told him that he had sold for too little and he must thus issue the difference as a gift.

EDIT: Some quick Googling uncovered that the IRS would see the purchase as a gift. Interesting. I'm curious how often this triggers an IRS inquiry. If I were the OP, I'd consult a tax professional for this discussion.
Yes, this transaction clearly falls within the definition of a taxable gift for which a gift tax return is to be filed. Just because "no entity came along..." means that he wasn't audited by the IRS and wasn't caught. Selling to a relative for less than FMV constitutes a taxable gift.
Gill
Is the rent-free occupancy by the OP & his wife also a taxable gift from the FIL (and maybe MIL, depending on who actually owns the property)?
This is my in laws primary residence in the US. They are not in the states for a good majority of the year. I suppose I’m just a guest that’s been around for a while. :wink:
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Re: Should I buy house from father in law

Post by Dyloot »

123 wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:57 pm Note that under the California exemption from property tax reassessment transfer from parent to child it is only his child (your spouse) that would qualify for the exemption from reassessment. If you buy the house jointly your spouse would get her half free from reassessment but your half would be reassessed at current value. Between property basis and property tax and financing for purchase you can have quite a complex situation.
Are you sure on this one? In my transaction I (the son-in-law) did not see evidence of this.

I did some Googling and didn't find anything concrete, outside of one article that states that a child of the property owner could be defined as a SIL or DIL.

Do you have experience with this, or have a link you can share?

EDIT: After a few more targeted Google searches, looking at the definition of Child for the Parent-Child exclusion, I found this:
Definition and Terminology specific to Proposition 58:

Child: Children include the following: sons and daughters, sons-in-law and daughters-in-law, stepchildren, and children adopted under 18.
I found this here:

https://sfassessor.org/tax-savings/excl ... rent-child
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pharming2017
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Re: Should I buy house from father in law

Post by pharming2017 »

Dyloot wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 6:10 pm
123 wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:57 pm Note that under the California exemption from property tax reassessment transfer from parent to child it is only his child (your spouse) that would qualify for the exemption from reassessment. If you buy the house jointly your spouse would get her half free from reassessment but your half would be reassessed at current value. Between property basis and property tax and financing for purchase you can have quite a complex situation.
Are you sure on this one? In my transaction I (the son-in-law) did not see evidence of this.

I did some Googling and didn't find anything concrete, outside of one article that states that a child of the property owner could be defined as a SIL or DIL.

Do you have experience with this, or have a link you can share?

EDIT: After a few more targeted Google searches, looking at the definition of Child for the Parent-Child exclusion, I found this:
Definition and Terminology specific to Proposition 58:

Child: Children include the following: sons and daughters, sons-in-law and daughters-in-law, stepchildren, and children adopted under 18.
I found this here:

https://sfassessor.org/tax-savings/excl ... rent-child
Thanks for the link.
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Re: Should I buy house from father in law

Post by Marmot »

pharming2017 wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:26 am Hi everyone!

My wife and I currently live in one of my father in laws homes (rent free). He is near retirement and has expressed interest in selling us the house we live in at a discount, in an effort to consolidate his portfolio.

House current market value around $2million - $2.2million
He has proposed a sale price of $1.5 million

I think this is a no brainer personally -- he's essentially giving us free money. Here are our stats.

Current stats:
Married 30 y/o couple
Combined gross income $350k - $400K / yr (started making this around 2017)
Non-retirement accounts: $800k
Retirement accounts: $400K
Zero debt
One baby on the way!

My plan was to put up $600k (50% of portfolio) upfront and mortgage the remainder. I'm sure we can afford the payments, however i'm wondering if this is a good route to take. Am I missing something? From an investing stand point I feel like this is almost an instant 100% return on $600k.

One uncertainty is that my wife will likely be dropping down to part time to take care of our new baby, so gross income would probably drop to $250k/yr starting at the end of this year. I don't plan on spending anything on child care in the interim as my MIL will be helping us care for the child when both my wife and I are at work.

All feedback is appreciated.

Thanks!
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